Guns, knives and hand grenades
 

Coming from the UK, the only experience of guns I have, or indeed intend to have, is courtesy of Hollywood, so this is purely a hypothetical question:

I am planning a trip across Morocco by motorcycle for the start of next year. Although where I am going isn't the most dangerous place in Africa, I am getting the impression from things I have read and heard that the overlander (in particular the motorcyclist) is rather vulnerable to attack from any group (eg. rebels in the middle of nowhere) that decides they want what we have.

With this in mind, what are the groups feelings on carrying some form of weapon for protection?

cheers,

Hi

I haven't been to Morocco, but visited some Arab countries. my experience is that any kind of weapon found in your possession. will bring you to a very unpleasant situation. meaning - jail.
As I know,a knife in those places is a deadly weapon. I was once carrying a machete while entering Egypt, and had almost put behind bars.
Anyhow, I don't believe in such protection, if you come to a situation of self defence, the last thing is to draw a gun or a knife. It will be your end for sure,they will always outnumber you. locals will be against you in kind of revenge,and you will not have the time and language to explain your side, and the authorities will be insulted that you took the law and hunt you as well.
My suggestion is to ride thinking of passive defence, do not enter alone to suspected areas. do not ride at night and ask other travelers on what is ahead.

Ride safely

Yoni

I have travelled in Morocco and as long as your use common sense, you will be able to avoid most problematic situations.

I would strongly recommend that you do not take a weapon as you will compound a situation. Remember you pull a knife they'll pull a gun and as the earlier mail states they'll be more of them than you.

I have travelled extensively and have never needed to use a weapon, it's better to lose your wallet than your life, travelling should be an enjoyable experience and if you go with a negative attitude, you will have a negative experience. A smile and courtious behaviour goes a very long way.

Ju

Last time I went there the first thing the customs asked me on entering was if i had a gun. Of course the reply was NO, DO I NEED ONE? Jokes aside, They are ready to search you so I would advise take nothing but a good pair of running shoes. If you use a knife while defending your kit and money you'll end up in jail and it will cost a lot more than the price of a new tent to get you out

I agree with the other writers that the right attitude and using common sense will go a long way to avoiding trouble.

We did carry small folding knives with us, not large enough to have alarmed customs officials if they had searched us. We also carried bear spray, which of course is for defense against animals if asked. The only time we ever used it was in Alaska, when we sprayed it around our tent just to discourage the bears!

Greg Frazier suggests keeping a few expired credit cards and some small bills in a 'mugger wallet', which you can keep handy in case you ever need to hand over something to someone who wants it bad enough to hurt you to get it. Of course, dispersing all your money into various locations on yourself and the bike (boots, moneybelt, hidden pocket, bike, etc.), means you should never lose it all!

Some very good advice on this topic is on the Safety page. This was sent to us a few years ago, on avoiding being a victim of crime:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tri...CrimeAvoidance

NOTE: Spraying bear spray around your tent is a NO-NO we found out later - the bears and other critters are curious about the strange - now somewHat dissipated - smell and come and investigate - it's an ATTRACTANT!

Ditto!!

The ever ubiqitous 'Glock in the Tankbag' thread *S* Whichever way you look at it, the carrying of weapons, no matter which country you're travelling through, is extremely risky at best.

I can only echo the comments of Susan my friend, passive defence. Forewarned is forearmed as they say...a decoy wallet is a very good idea.

A wiser person then I once commented that the winner of any conflict is the one who is most committed...pull a weapon and you may just find out how many of the locals are more committed then yourself to actually using one...especially considering you're in their backyard.

I can only reflect on the experience of an American friend of mine who carried a weapon around New Zealand (apart from it being highly illegal), the new friends that he'd made almost turned on him when they found he was carrying, not because they'd taken a sudden dislike to him but because he'd brought a weapon into their home...being maori people they considered it an enormous insult.

Use your head my friend...it's the best weapon you've got,

Cheers and all the best,

Andy.

I spent a few weeks in Morocco with my Land Rover two years ago with no problem at all - other than those caused by an overly agressive friend in a Toyota:

When we arrived in a small town (Moulay Idris IIRC) he first led us (in vehicles) through all the small back-streets causing chaos to the locals going about their daily business. After our second lap(!) he decided we should park in the town square. Three youths then approached us and demanded 10 dirhams (about 0.65 UKP, 1.00 USD) for 'parking'). I knew it was extortion but the amount was so small that I was all for handing this too them and wandering off for a look around the town and to get some shopping. But my mate [thought he] knew better and started to pick an argument with them. One thing led to another and people started pushing each-other and, suddenly, we were in the middle of a group of about 20 or 30 youths, all shouting at us (well, mostly him, I was trying to keep out of it!). It was very frightening as we were heavily outnumbered and I was glad when he got back into his Toyota and we left town.

The morals here: One: If he'd had a weapon then, if he had been stupid enough to pull it, there is no question that it is him who would ultimately have wound up being hurt with it. Two: It is these people's home we are travelling through and their are cultural differences - respect those differences, don't start fights over them, and you'll probably not need a weapon anyway.

I carry two knives when travelling. One is in my multi-tool, the other in my cooking gear. I certainly do not carry one as a weapon.

Andy

There is no doubt that a friendly unthreatening attitude will settle most tense situations. One of my experiences with this has been in eastern Mexico during the Chiapas conflicta, when we (nine on seven bikes) were pulled up and searched many times. Sometimes by the police, sometimes the military.

Mostly we left them behind smiling...
On one occasion I was leading. About eight Police pulled us up and started to search my bike, speaking to one another in Spanish. After about five minutes my friend behind, an Argentinian, spoke up in fluent Spanish, which suprised and embarrassed them as now they knew that he understood every word they had been saying amongst themselves.

Next one of our party revealed herself as a (very attractive) US Policewoman, another as a District Attorney, all smiling broadly of course. Badges were exchanged...all happiness and light...we left, they were laughing, we were laughing.

Also on that trip, one another occasion at a road block, a youth was holding a rifle point blank at my wife's midriff. She smiled and motioned gently him to point it away. He broke a smile and did so....

Another experience in Botswanna was not so pleasant, but ended without incident. A desert random Police road block near Swapkapmund. A young Policeman seized a bike and took off down the road flat out, ostensibly 'testing its brakes'. The owner had to be subdued by his friends, - us, but once again we left without any serious problem.

I do rememebr one of the girls saying "this would never happen in America". I cringed at the obvious reply; "THIS IS BOTSWANNA".

cheers
Peter...about to tour Alaska, where I think bears and RVs may be our biggest threat?

I've just been informed by a fellow Canadian that spraying bear spray around your tent as a repellent may be a bad idea!

"Just a short note to caution you on the practice of spraying bearspray around tent to ward off bears.The exact opposite is likely to occur.They have been observed on more than one occasion returning to the location of their being sprayed and rolling in the residue. Oh Yummy seasoning already applied."


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Susan Johnson
Share the Dream at http://www.HorizonsUnlimited.com/

I'm sorry kids, but this is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever heard. Glocks in tankbags? Attacks by rebels in Morocco? What rebels? Where in Morocco?
Mate, you categorically do not need a tool or a piece to travel through Morocco - or anywhere else in the world. Carrying a weapon makes you paranoid, jumpy, aggressive. Taking the time to learn a little bit of Arabic and French will be a lot more useful.
Chill out, mate. It's a nice world. Forget guns, remember people. Man.

"Attacks by rebels in Morocco? What rebels? Where in Morocco?"

Others know their history better than do I, but if I remember correctly there has been fighting in the south of Morocco over the area called the Western Sahara for quite some time now. Last I noticed the UN was still trying to arrange a referendum, without success. I wouldn't imagine that tourists would be allowed to enter the area, either.

But I very much agree with the point that weapons are not needed, and smiles and a smattering of the local language will carry you through most situations. Neither your wallet nor your motorcycle are worth your life, and nor are they worth a long stint in jail.

Yep, Western Sahara is disputed but hardly dangerous. The Polisario Rebels are based in Algeria now and firmly into a UN/Jim Baker led peace process, arguing the terms of a long-promised, longer-delayed referendum on the future of the province. I could be wrong, but it seems unlikely that Polisario are suddenly gonna start whacking tourists. In the meantime, the area (or at least one long, dusty, windy road from Tan Tan to Dakhla) is definitely open to tourists and part of the Atlantic Saharan crossing route.

In regard to safety in Morocco you will be fine on a motorcycle trip. Dress conservatively and be friendly to people. The worse thing is the husslers offering to be your guides and some pick pockets. I lived there for a little over two years in the town of Taza about an hour east of Fes between Mid-Atlas and the Rif mountains. During this time I travelled through most of the country as well and met a lot of people travelling by motorcycle. If you take the time, as another post suggested, to learn a few phrases and greetings in Arabic you will find a great deal of hospitality. Also, DO NOT BRING A GUN INTO MOROCCO, you will have heaps of explaining to do and might extend your stay longer than you ever wanted. Use the decoy wallet as suggested. I can't speak for the the rest of Africa, but that is what I know of Morocco. Enjoy the trip.

You should have no need of a gun. Morocco is fine. The only real danger in western sahara is mines. Stay on the track! A machette is fine to carry, I used mine everynight for gathering firewood.
We confirmed that it's OK to carry pepperspray or mace, but on entering the country the moroccan border duanne seized the ones they found. We had a couple more put away and carried them in the cities at night. It would be easy to hide a standard pepper spray on any bike, and they even have some that are shaped like pens and would never be noticed.
-Ed

First rule of being mugged is that there are always more of them than there are of you.

Second rule, if they have a gun they're probably the police and it's a machine gun. You can't win here.

Third rule, if you pull out a knife or gun, it's no good unless you're actually prepared to use it. If you have to use it, you're in a lot more trouble than just being mugged. The rules aren't that different in Africa to "civilised" countries, despite appearances, and you can't run around shooting people and expect to get away with it.

Fourth rule, if you do carry some sort of self defence, you'll need it only when you've left it in the car. Consequently you have to take it everywhere. Think about it - having your wallet lifted in a croweded market is one thing, but imagine having a gun pickpocketed!

Fifth rule, being armed just makes you more paranoid. Machetes are good because they're useful for other things (still the best cabbage-cutting knife I've ever had), and pepper spray is a good bet because it's non-lethal and appears so innocuous.

Remember, all you want to do if you're in trouble is stall them long enough to get away.

The world is full of unarmed dead people.

Luckily for them, most of them died piecefully in there sleep.



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- www.maartensworld.tmfweb.nl -

I will never understand, the williness of some people, to lay down like sheep.

Sounds like this topic has gotten off the original question, which was whether to carry weapons when travelling in foreign countries.

Most countries do not allow weapons to be brought in or carried legally, and landing in jail for illegal possession of a weapon is probably not a desirable outcome to your trip.

I think there have been some very common sense suggestions about personal protection thus far.

For those who would like more info, we have reprised some of the US State Department info on Terrorism, Hijacking and Hostage Situations at:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tri...errorism.shtml

as well as other material on 'Don't be a Victim' at: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tri...CrimeAvoidance

Last word on this subject: People who go looking for trouble tend to find it. Our experience and those of all the travellers we've been in contact with over the years has been that most of the world is as safe or safer than your own country if you go with the right attitude.

Susan & Grant
'One World, Two Wheels'

P.S. This bulletin board is not the venue to get into a political debate on the 'right to bear arms', so let's not go there, please.

[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 01 June 2002).]

I would never carry into a country that doesn't allow it....but I don't like that one bit. What is the world coming to when you are not allowed to defend yourself and your family by any means possible

I just expressed my opinion about carrying a weapon like everyone else......what's the big deal?...does everyone have to agree?

This has gotten way out of line as Susan stated. This is not the place to discuss the moral/political justification of packing. This will be a long one:
There are few countries in which the average citizen is allowed to carry a gun (this is carry – many countries allow ownership). These include the US, Israel, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Brazil, Cyprus, and a maybe a couple of others. Even within that country the laws may differ from region to region. In the US, every state sets its own carry laws. All but Vermont require a license, which ranges from easy to get (any North-West state) to downright impossible (New York, New Jersey). Many don’t honor other states permits and for a few states, individual cities can have differing laws. The risk of getting caught breaking a law is FAR GREATER than having somebody trying to kill you. What passes as normal in one place is a great offence in another. Stand on a street corner anywhere in Europe or North America and preach all day about the evils of Communism. Or the joys of free speech. Or whatever floats your boat. People will give you funny looks. Now try the same thing in North Korea or Cuba. Not so funny anymore eh? Now you are an “enemy of the people”. Want another example? Smoke weed in Amsterdam and loose a few brain cells. Repeat in China and loose your head. Is it worth getting caught? The Powers that Be are far more dangerous to your health than any mugger. I have walked the streets of Bucharest at night and slept next to bums in train stations in Venice. Its been said before – its mostly in your attitude. Leave your Glock at home – or the pepper spray for that matter as it is also illegal in most of the same countries that packing is illegal. It will be there when you get back.


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Improvement makes strait roads, but the crooked roads without Improvement, are roads of Genius - William Blake

Just thought I'd clarify the Administrators' position on this topic, so I'll repeat my posting from 20 Sep 2001 in the Travellers Advisories Forum:

"The Horizons Unlimited Motorcycle Travellers Community includes folks from over 100 countries and all major religions. We believe in tolerance and respect for everyone, and do not feel that religious or political debates belong on the site.

We'd appreciate it if folks just provided factual information for the benefit of other travellers, and we will be editing postings if necessary to ensure no one is inflaming a very tense situation. CNN, BBC and other sites are encouraging debate and discussion, so please post your personal opinions there."

The HUBB has always been intended as a fact-based board, where people can ask for and provide information to help plan trips, deal with paperwork, transport, insurance, medical and other issues.

It is NOT intended or run as a 'chat' board, NOR to debate the great political or religious or cultural issues of our time (of which gun control is a big one). There isn't a shortage of other sites where you can get into that sort of debate, if that's what you want to do, so this isn't meant as a denial of anyone's free speech. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

This doesn't mean that people don't have opinions, and when it comes to topics such as 'Which Bike?', where there is no definitive answer, all we ask is that opinions voiced should always respect those you are disagreeing with.

We have seldom had to censor the HUBB, but occasionally it is necessary to remind folks of the above policy.

I think this topic has been sufficiently covered, and I am now closing this thread, so I guess that gives me the last word! Have to have some privileges for being the Administrator. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Thanks
Susan