NO AMERICAN FLAGS!
 

I don't want to start a huge political rant, but having just returned from a ride in few countries (Hungary, Poland, England, Ireland, Germany, France, Austria, Schweiz etc etc...) I ran into a problem. My bike got tipped over, kicked over, and I got ran off the road (intentionally) I came out of a pub once and there was animal FECES on my seat...and after a while I decided to try a theory of mine. I pulled my large AMERICAN FLAG sticker off of my Jesse Bags and put a CANADIAN FLAG (via internet purchase)on my bike and BAM, the violence and accidents ceased to exist! Not to mention I had much more pleasant conversations with locals at petrol stops. I have been riding for years in other countries, and I have NEVER had problems like this as a result of my nationality. NOW, I fear for my life in less advanced countries. I LOVE MY COUNTRY, but I DO NOT go around SPOUTING off about being AMERICAN and I am considering locating to CANADA in order to get different tags on my bike (passport etc....) I am much more careful about talking loud in cafes or pubs and I (as always) watch the way I dress (no American clothes etc). I hate to say this, but I fear that the current administration is alienating the rest of the world. We have more enemies now than ever before! It is sad. Has anyone else had these experiences? Is it me or is the American Flag a source of anger in an increasing number of countries?

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If you want to stay alive on your trip around the world, PUT CANADIAN STICKERS ON YOUR BIKE. IF you want to be jailed or abused, put an AMERICAN FLAG on your bike.

I guess it,s also not wise to wave a red flag in front of a bull..... even if it,s colour-blind.

It is sad but I do understand people,s reaction. I DO NOT aprove of violance or destructon of property... but I do understand it.

I think you understand it to.

Maarten

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- www.maartensworld.com -
- Some photo's -

The Bush dictation in US has been very unpopular indeed. Sadly, he's the boss again that makes things even more worse...

Mostly the rest of the world just hates the US for the simple principal reason: US consumes 40% of World's resources at the same time it has only 5% of Word's population. Did i just say they overconsume and virtually waste the resources while others can live happily with much less? The fact is that Earth has limited resources... At the time consuming the dominant resources for making peace or making war? Hard to say who's a real terror-country now, but the fact is - citizens choose their suitable goverment to put in charge...

Sure the words "advanced-country" has a very fake meaning here and is subjective approximation.

So i understand the reaction of violence too, as Maarten noted.

Well, in my practice typical younger generation Eeuropean says: "damn over-weighted americans, eating the fat hamburgers, dringking full freezer of beers, having many cars, big house and lot of useless things that cost lot of money, likes a redicoulous smalltalks and think's he's a God if he's outside US too..."

I'd don't want to be under Your skin too. So indeed, the best way probably is to get Canadian flags and never say you're from US and sure never-ever(!) say publically you like your US country though i think. That could mean bad incidents outside US. So better to "camoflage" your bad-reputation origin country for the rest of the eyes. You may read some other US-literated postings about flags here too. If you get it OK then there're no problems and you're treated like a real friend everywhere. (It's strange to think how damned bad reputation the US Gov has made itself and that's affecting the citizens now too...)

Good luck, Margus

[This message has been edited by Margus (edited 15 January 2005).]

Hello.
I certainly don't want to ruffle any feathers here, this is a very touchy subject with my neighbors to the south. If you're not Canadian, please don't fly our flag. Most of us would find this very insulting, if not somewhat tacky. Your best bet is to simply act apropriately. Always be polite, say please and thankyou. Never become over-bearing, and always wear a smile. Remove anything that resembles the stars&stripes and remove the screaming-eagle bandana.Make sure you laugh with people, not at them. Remember that you are a guest in any foreign country, and please leave your gun at home http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif
Most think we fly our flag to show we are not Americans, but this is not true. We fly our flag to find fellow Canadians!

Dumb question, but are there such things as international license plates? Or can a bike be ridden without plates in some countries? It wouldn't seem it would help much to put a Canadian flag on luggage while having a US state license plate on the bike.

Mike

I don't think the resentment towards the US is due to its environmental practices. It's mainly towards it foreign policy, at least that's the situation here in the Middle East. Down here we resented the US because of its support to Israel. The rest of the world started to resent the US since its role as the “Global Policeman” turned into the “Global Bully” with infamous statements like “You're either with us or against us” and the actions that followed it.

Having said that I don't think the answer to this issue is hiding the fact that you're a US citizen. Don't advertise it with a flag, but do mention it if asked and show your sympathy and understanding to the locals and their views. The US government is doing a lousy PR job on a grand scale, US citizens can make a good job on a small scale. People need to know that this is more of a administration attitude rather than US citizens attitude for the violence against individual Americans to stop. Ironically, the people who will get this fastest are the people of Middle Eastern countries since the concept of the difference of the interests of the administration and the interest of the people is the norm.

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.
Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool.

It doesn't matter what the license plate says - the biggest sticker tells people what you are, which makes me Venezuelan http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif My NJ plates and American sticker haven't brought me any trouble in Latin America, and maybe having lots of stickers for every country the bike has been in helps here.

James

Have to say I find the response typical of the narrow minded mentality of many Europeans (Brits included) towards citizens of the US. Eveyone has the right to be proud of their country without being directly linked to and blamed for the behaviour of their government.

Seems most of the World can get over previous injustices much quicker than we can in Europe, even though it is not us on the receiving end of current US government misbehaviour on the World stage.

Sorry to hear that you received this treatment in Europe and would go along with the thinking of keeping the flags stashed away for now. In the UK, foreign cars are often trashed if their country of origin beats the home side at football. Better be thankful that the US are not so great at soccer!

Displaying the flag of what has arguably become the most hated country in the world can land you in trouble, it seems. Other Americans have reported here and elsewhere of having had good experiences, even in countries whose governments don't have good relations with the US. So, just being American won't land you in trouble, as you have experienced yourself. The US regime is not well liked here, and for good reason: European countries and the EU constantly get bullied by them. They have exempted themselves from the international court. They need to, otherwise they would risk being indicted.

Anyway, we sholdn't be discussing this here on a bike travellers' site. For an eye-opener check out this site: www.democracynow.org

The bottom line is: you are an American. You can't really hide this fact, nor should you have to. Displaying the flag, however, is probably conceived by a few people as you being proud of what the US does. I think the best thing you can do is simply listen to what people tell you and try to understand them.

Stick the flags of the countries you are visiting on your bike. Most locals like that, I think.

Happy travels!

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Salut from Southern France, the bikers' paradise,

Peter.

Sorry to hear about your treatment in Europe, thats really unfortunate & unfair. People may not like your governemnt but you have nothing to do with it.

Its obvious by your experiences that the U.S. is not popular at the moment, so flying the flag only draws attention to you. Until the mood changes, the simple answer is to be low key, draw as little attention to yourself as possible, and start by pulling down the flag.

I'm following an American on a California plate doing a RTW trip and he's currently in the middle east with no problems to date. He's not displaying an American flag.

I hope this doesn't discourage you from doing more travelling, just carry on but for now, stash the flag.

Sorry to hear about your experiences.

They are much like the experiences of a significant proprtion of the arabic and muslim population in Australia since the events of september 11 and the "War on Terror", Iraq war and so on

In their case it was fueled by an inconsiderate and unquestioning media that portrays all those not white bread or rich as being a threat to our way of life.

Racism isnt pleasant, and i feel it may explain your indignation. But remember its not just Americans that have to endure it, and at least you can pretend to be from somewhere else.

I suppose you felt some of the rebound.

We have a BMW owners psychological support group if you need a sympathetic ear about the GS, although being American i dont know if we can admit you into the AOE MCC.

cheers

alec




[This message has been edited by simmo (edited 16 January 2005).]

Have any Aussie travellers had problems? I'm interested to know if any anti-Yanqui sentiment has rubbed off on us as a result of Emperor Johnny's unbridled support for "The War On Terror" (coming soon to a third world country near you). Is the more recently declared "War on Tsunamis" any more winnable?

Basically, should I be painting a kangaroo on my machine, or the Jack and Stars? Or neither?

As far as flags go, I'm half Finnish. Have they doen anything to piss anyone off recently? (Apart form marketing Koskinkorva to the world)

A man is not a country.

I would say that most locals I have met travelling, although opposed to US foreign policy, can distinguish between the government of a country and its individual citizens. I pointed this out to the Taliban I met near Peshawar in Pakistan.
As an Australian it seems we have managed to slip beneath the radar in terms of what the common man knows of our shameful involvement with recent US lead military actions. People are more inclined to rant against Dubya than against his 'deputy' John Howard.

With regard to the flag issue, if you don't want to display a US flag, just leave it off. Why replace it with another flag?
Sean

I agree with Sean. Why wave a flag at all?

An interesting (or not) annecdote: In Addis Ababa a local chap looks at the back of my bike, where there was a very prominent GB sticker (the only other sticker was a Free Tibet sticker)and asks me in English whether I was French http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Probably the beret/stripy shirt/garlic/Galloise I was sporting.

Am in the process of trying to get a German Passport (I already have a UK pp) in order to be able to ride to India via Iran.

Cheers
Chris
PS If you never wash you bike nobody can read any writing/sickers on you bike anyway.

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TheBrightStuffDotCom

Or...you could just tell everyone you nicked the bike off a yank...instant hero!

Seriously, its a bitter pill to swallow, I know the feeling, I had to travel with a SAF p/port during apartheid and it wasn't fun. On more than one occasion I had to make rather hasty retreats to avoid confrontation. I know you can't compare the two situations but you get the drift. Much better nowadays, because after the smooth non violent transition I guess the world saw that the poeple themselves did not always represent the previous policies. That will ultimately happen with the US as well, regardless of their policies, it just takes poeple like yourself to change the worlds perceptions. I wouldn't bother with the flag though, its just an excuse for some ***** to be nasty whilst you're in the can...get a sticker of a dope leaf instead, always goes down a treat...

Carlos carlos

"Have any Aussie travellers had problems? I'm interested to know if any anti-Yanqui sentiment has rubbed off on us as a result of Emperor Johnny's unbridled support for "The War On Terror" (coming soon to a third world country near you). Is the more recently declared "War on Tsunamis" any more winnable? "

I didnt have any trouble at all, but everyone knew who was with whom, while some would point to the farsi salam alekum under the headlight and say terrorist? So I would have been with us and against us at the same time!

I regularly dolled out small clip on koalas and sickers to confused police and border guards that wanted a "little present".

I didnt have an Australian flag on the bike because unlike GlobalGS I find it difficult to be proud of a country whos government imprisons refugees for years, supports unecessary wars, wont insist that its citizens held in US prisons are afforded natural justice and whos majority talk empathy and practise cruelty for the sake of low mortgage interest rates......but I do have some Australian freinds!

A recent bumper sticker on a car in Melbourne was a map of Australia with a statement " Fxxx Off where full"

Sean hit the nail on the head.

cheers

alec


[This message has been edited by simmo (edited 17 January 2005).]

[This message has been edited by simmo (edited 17 January 2005).]

I simply don’t understand why somebody needs to exhibit a large American flag (or any other national flag) on his bike.

I love my country, but it never even crossed my mind the idea of traveling displaying an Italian flag on my bike.

If somebody is so proud of his country that he can not even travel without an American (or any other national) flag, than have the courage and the coherence to face the consequence of his action.

As a Brit married to an American I am torn between the politics of the current situation and the needs of individual identity.

Firstly, the US has a very aggressive and ill-conceived foreign policy in my opinion and it disgusts me that the British and the Aus PMs have poodled along with it. Though I see the need for security the Iraq invasion had nothing to do with WMD and alot to do with OIL.

ON a personal level I like to be British and I am sure my wife is proud to be American though when we travel I am Welsh and my wife uses here Irish passport why?

Well I am not proud of what the flag (Union Jack or Stars & Stripes) means at the momentto most of the people we meet in Europe and Africa. It means greed, wealth and aggression. so we dont wear our flags, as badges of honour.

I am a little taken aback when people claim that a governments country is not the fualt of its people with the US and UK enforcing democracy on the world, and us electing them in the us with a real 50% of the vote of course our countries are representative of our people.

Its just that the people who vote these people into power tend to not be interseted in travel adventure and understanding other people and cultures.

My advice is take off the flags (of any nation) and travel quietly and respectfully, though I would hope you would have very little problem in Africa.

Good luck my friend and travel lightly on this earth

Charlie

Boy, I go away for one weekend and look at this thread.

I have an American flag on my jacket sleeve. I always thought that it was important to show that not all Americans are the same. Afterall, anyone who travels in foreign countries on a motorcyle is going to be more savy than the typical tourist. However, these days you have to wonder if you are risking your safety for the sake of pride. I can't bring myself to go around pretending I am from Canada, but I may make sure there are plenty of other flags on my bike or jacket. In the end, I don't think pretending to be someone else works, because most of the time the truth is obvious. Also, say you are in a local cafe and are striking up a nice conversation with the local patrons (is this not the best part of traveling), it is going to be hard to keep up the act for very long, and if they discover the lie where does that leave you.

Unfortunately people will see a flag of a country and associate it’s political leader to it. If you want to have a flag of your country then you should consider the consequences that may happen.
I would agree with Chris and Seanh travel with no flag and let people get to know you as an individual. But not put another countries flag on your bike because they have a more favourable experiences from it.
I am sorry to hear about your experiences and wish you safe travels


Take care
Nobby

I didn't mean that you have to LIE about being from Canada. Canada was just a metaphor if you will for "some other country that is not as controversial." No offense to Canadians. By the way all you Kanooks....GREAT COUNTRY! and please don't let your leaders follow OURS no matter how much they try to bully you!. I love CANADA..the land of windpower, great people, the metric system.... and HOCKEY!!!!!! When I travel I do blend in the best I can, but a German friend of mine gave me the U.S. Flag Sticker, and up till now, I met some GREAT people because of it....but that time has gone. I also sport the flags of every country I've visited on my side cases. Along with a peace symbol decal, etc.....I have never been boistrous about being an American. I think we are very spoiled and Anthropocentric! I once watched an American lady YELL at a German hotel manager because she didn't have a TV and she had to share a toilet with others on the floor! Yup, proud to be an American.

P.S. Can I be an honorary Canook?

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If you want to stay alive on your trip around the world, PUT CANADIAN STICKERS ON YOUR BIKE. IF you want to be jailed or abused, put an AMERICAN FLAG on your bike.

I QUOTE: "I didnt have an Australian flag on the bike because ...I find it difficult to be proud of a country whos government imprisons refugees for years, supports unecessary wars, wont insist that its citizens held in US prisons are afforded natural justice and whos majority talk empathy and practise cruelty for the sake of low mortgage interest rates......but I do have some Australian freinds!"

I agree with all this and am desperate to leave, being nothing more than indentured labour in this land.

While at home I avoid the Jack and stars like the plague and always fly the Eureka flag (Southern Cross flag)...even though many misinformed Australians associate it with Neo Nazi skinheads or militant trade unionists.

The green and gold with boxing kangaroo tends to be associated with large mobs of ugly Aussies throwing up in the street after major sporting events, accompanied by the ubiquitous chant of Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi! (cringe and put on a german accent). I do however think that as a whitey about to travel in developing countries it is important to make it clear I'm not an American.

I know there are many decent Yanquis roaming the globe, but if someone is looking for a target to vent anti-US rage I'd rather not be the obvious and immediate choice. Not everyone will politely ask where you're from before they start throwing stones, defacating on your machine (I'd never heard of that happening before...Eeurgh!) or whatever else.

Hence the concern about being tarred with the imperialist brush, whether it's Jack or Stripes.

I like the idea of the clip on koalas. Cheap, small and light to carry, instantly recognisable. Does it work?

"I like the idea of the clip on koalas. Cheap, small and light to carry, instantly recognisable. Does it work?"

You better believe it Carlos, works a treat!!!

I hope the aussie contingent isn't hijacking this american flag thread, however I generally agree with the sentiments being expressed, particularly the fellow aussies, although I may not have been as forthright.

Back to the koalas - I travelled with my wife and few friends for about 5 months in eastern europe, spain, portugal and morrocco in 2003. We were backpacking, not motorcycle travel, a error I will redress in a year or so when I return. However, in our backpacks we all carried a bag of givaways including clip-on koalas and kangaroos, as well as pens, pencils, rulers and playing cards all with some australiana on them. We never used them to try to bribe anyone (its very obvious they are cheap) nor did we use them to overtly advertise our nationality (they were not openly displayed). We really took them just to give to kids, I just love the look on their faces when they aren't expecting a gift. But the biggest surprise was how well they worked as a thankyou to adults that have been really helpful and friendly - you know the ones, you meet them all the time, everywhere. Its those times when thankyou seems too little, but money just seems inappropriate - perfect solution, little aussie gift and really BIG thankyou! The smile it left on some adults was even more priceless than the kids! That is the reason I do it, but if it also leaves a good impression of my country and fellow coutrymen, then that's a bonus.

Get yourself to a wholesale type place that sells this stuff and you can buy in bulk, cost very little, weighs nothing but worth a fortune in memories. Just dont let on they are made in china!

Skillo

[This message has been edited by SKILLO (edited 18 January 2005).]

Maybe I'll give away little miniature George Bushes...that clip on to your shirt. Then when you press the button, he says "Screw the world, I'm gettin' some oil." Oh wait, that's not funny.

I've gotten a little flack for being a Yanqui Running Dog in Australia but it's in the same way the Aussies pick on the Kiwis. At least I think so -- no one's covered my seat with dog shit. I'll see if Carloscarlos has any hidden plans when I show up at his house.

The US ain't a popular nation worldwide. I don't say I'm Canadian and when asked I say, "I'm from California". It goes with the CAL plate on the bike.

US foreign policy ****-ups have been brought up by lots of Aussies, Germans and other foreigners I've met. A quick, "all governments are corrupt, and since the US is so rich, it's extra corrupt" sums it up. Feel free to use that quote. It's true and its done me good.

It never even occured to me to fly the US flag, but I love seeing other foreign travelers flying theirs.

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Trying to ride (and work) my way round the world on a 1965 Ducati 250cc. Australia, New Zealand and Japan are first. http://nokilli.com/rtw/

Pietro (from Italy), that didn't really make sense. Since it's the American flag, wouldn't it take more courage? Coherence?....ah..sure....you sound angry man. Do you need someone to talk to buddy?

ach...
i'm riding a(probably stolen)japenese bike, with thai numberplates and a dutch carnet..
I'm belgian and even if i had a flagsticker..nobody would recognize it. anyway people over here dont know belgium (brazil?)and even if they would,what can you blame belgium for? the good beer and the belgium fries? maybe the chocolate? -no,its not a question-
greetz and fun to you all
niels

ps dont let me catch any of you driving under my flag..
ps leave pietro alone

I am driving with your flag on my bike. It is directly underneath my German flag. Which is underneath my Finland flag, which is underneath my Icelandic flag.

Hi - it's Pete's other half Jenny here for a change. I'm also sorry to hear about the problems you have been having. People are angry and don't know how to express their anger appropriately. I am also angry, and not just with the US government, but i try to act in somewhat more constructive ways.

Here is a letter written by a Buddhist peace activist and sent to George W Bush more than three years ago - before the second Iraq war. This is only a partial list but I think it probably answers your question about why the US is a little out of favour at the moment.....


Dear President Bush

Why? Why? Why? Why do people around the world hate America so much? Tens of millions of your citizens are asking themselves this question. May I be permitted to respond to that profound concern?

In the space of two generations, US foreign policy has:
Maintained itself as the world’s biggest arms dealer
Dropped two atomic bombs on Japanese men, women and children killing more than 100,000 people
Waged war on Korea splitting the country in two
Waged war for a decade on the peasant army and villages of Vietnam killing more than 1.5 million people
Bombed Cambodia, another Buddhist country, precipitating a national holocaust
Conducted a secret war in neighbouring Buddhist Laos
Supported numerous repressive regimes like Chile, El Salvador, Argentina, Philippines
Manipulated the economies and debts of African nations through supporting World Bank and IMF
Ordered a fatal helicopter raid on Iran and ignored diplomacy
Conducted an aerial attack on the Libyan president and his family
Made total war upon a plimsolled army and infrastructure of poverty stricken Iraq
Supported the Israel army’s invasion of Lebanon costing the lives of 17,000 people
Ignored rights of Palestinians for nationhood, ignored assassinations and shooting of Palestinian children
Ignored countless UN resolutions concerning human rights and international law
Bombed Kosovo and Chinese Embassy in Belgrade; launched attack on Wako cult in Texas, USA.
Destroyed half of Sudan’s tiny pharmaceutical industry by bombing their main factory
Sold billions of $$$ of weaponry to corrupt, undemocratic regimes in the Arab world to secure cheap oil
Demonised the Muslim world as fanatics. Are Catholics all fanatics because of the IRA?
Pushed through global capitalism that exploits people and environment of poor nations
Mercilessly cut off aid for years to poor nations, if they do not agree to US demands
Rejected the Kyoto agreement to help protect people and the environment
Rejected well-established international treaties on nuclear weapons

The death toll, suffering and sorrow heaped upon people and environment around the world, including the loss of countless lives of American soldiers and civilians, through US foreign policy, is incalculable. Isn’t the USA the leading rogue nation? Has the USA consistently supported freedom, justice, security and basic needs for people or pursued the politics of ruthless self-interest?
There is much that is great and beautiful about the USA, but, sadly, such a list of fine attributes would not include soul-searching. We must all take responsibility for international conflict. Or else, in Buddhist terms, the vicious cycle of co-dependent arising continues. We, the West, do not need to make War on Terrorism but we do need to start compassionate Acts of Reconciliation with the rest of the world.

Yours Respectfully,
Christopher Titmuss
International Advisory Board Member
Buddhist Peace Fellowship

Wow, I didn't say bash everything about the US! Yes, our people are more overweight than any country on the planet. Yes, we drive super large SUV's to pick up a gallon of milk, Yes, our tourists are often bitching about not having a television, or wearing some tacky looking shirts with cameras around their neck. Yes, our voters are easily brainwashed by an idiot from Texas. Yes, we have the strongest military in the world. But you know what, there is good in that as well, when it is used FOR GOOD. Which you are right, our might is not often used for the right reasons. Especially under this dumbass president. I for one, do not have an attitude that the US can do whatever it wants, I think that with being the biggest and the strongest, we must take the lead in HELPING humanity and guarding PEACE, which this president knows nothing about, unless oil is concerned. We must work with ALL countries and come to agreements about our environment, rogue nations (yes, under Bush, we are a ROGUE nation). We can not just tell other very important countries such as France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Spain, etc etc....that their opinions don't matter. One day, the U.S. will NEED them, and then they WILL remember what GW Bush did to them....and payback hurts. However, just because GW is acting hitler like, doesn't mean that everything the U.S. has ever done is evil. Far from it.

Hi again,

I didn't "bash everything about the US"... the above letter criticises one thing and one thing only and that is US foreign policy. I have nothing against US citizens although it is a pity that Bush was voted back in despite what he and his "corporatocracy" have done.

Jenny

Please may I suggest that people stay on topic. The thread was about flags being displayed on your bike.

American foreign policy (and that supported by the UK (my) government) is an emotive topic at the moment. We all have our opinion, but I think this isn't the place for a discussion there of.

Most ordinary people and every biker on this planet I've met (except the gay Canadian in Montreal who took a fancy to me... please don't start on me being homophobic! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif ) have been great to me.

Maybe we should go out to promote peace and understanding.

Cheers
ChrisB

PS. I agree with the comment by the Belgian chap above: Leave Pietro alone. I understood exactly what he meant. All of us need to examine how well we master our own and other countries' languages.


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TheBrightStuffDotCom

[This message has been edited by chris (edited 18 January 2005).]

Mr. Moderator, I started this thread, and I was merely commenting on a post that someone had added to the thread I started. My points being that the following statement by Pietro:

"If somebody is so proud of his country that he can not even travel without an American (or any other national) flag, than have the courage and the coherence to face the consequence of his action."

........didn't make alot of sense. I understand that he had a limited sense of English grammar, but still, it didn't make sense. Based on my first thread, I never said that I couldn't handle what happened to me (Pietro's courage comment)...I dealt with it, I assure you.

As for Jenny's comment, it's all good, but I was just saying that not ALL of our foreign policy has been crap. Some of the countries that have gotten the blunt end of the stick (Iran, Syria, Iraq (invading Kuwait) etc....) have in the past acted aggressively and thereby deserved a good slap upside the head, by the big kid on the block. But I'm in no way saying the GW has done anything right since he's been in office (including the Iraq war). And, the stick should have been wielded by the WORLD, not just the U.S. We are on this planet together.

I would also ask the court that a bit of leeway be given in the conversation. So we stumbled off subject a bit, no harm, no foul. It's a pleasant conversation, as if we were all sitting in a pub talking about the subject. I'll be waiting on your ruling your honor.

Chris,

By the way, I checked out your website...COOL...

Do you have any flags or country stickers on your bike...or on that BIG box on your bike?

I don't feel a need to have my US flag on my bike by any means, but it was just slapped on there, and then slapped off. I collect country stickers as the only souvenirs I purchase in the countries I visit. Aside from a bazillion digital pictures....

Well, this has been an extremely interesting thread, and we thought we would share our views on the subject.

Actually, the letter reads like the US has never done a thing right in foreign policy, and I think is one sided.

Let's face it, whether we're talking about France, Spain or Britain during the days of empire, or Russia, China or the US today, no big power has completely clean hands. And who of us from Canada or any other country can definitively say that our country, given great power, would have wielded it any better?

Even in a democracy, countries are run by a few people who are entrusted by the masses to govern them. If leaders are badly informed or uninformed, or let emotion guide their decisions, or don't think through all the possible consequences of their actions, they can certainly make bad decisions. If they have great power, the impact of those bad decisions can be massive.

Let us not forget, though, that had it not been for the Americans in the last generation, Europe's map would look a lot different than it does today. And Americans gave generously to rebuild both Europe and Japan after the war.

I personally (Susan) have lived in the US as a teenager (in Texas, no less!), my sister is an American citizen who was married to a USAF pilot for many years, and I have worked with Americans in companies all over the world, as well as having met many Americans while travelling. In the past, I felt many of them were naive and uninformed, but almost invariably good hearted and well-meaning. Today, I think fewer of them are uninformed about the rest of the world, but I do worry about the messages that they are getting from the rest of the world (the CNN filter) and how they are interpreting them.

So what do we think is important to take from all this?

All of us should be promoting peace and understanding, and striving to understand other people's points of view. Very few issues are completely black and white. By travelling and participating in discussions, whether on this website or in a pub, we can all learn to appreciate the different perspectives of people from other countries.

To restate what we said when we launched the ezine in 1999,

As for the flags question which started the thread, although those who have seen the bike know we have travelled with a large Canadian flag on the back, I think for our next trip we will have only the map with our route on the panniers, and only the flags of countries we have visited on the boxes.

But, the reality is that many people will make or revise their judgments about a group (motorcyclists) or an entire country based on just a few individuals whom they meet and have either good or bad experiences with. So remember that you are an ambassador for your country and for motorcyclists, and we expect you to behave accordingly! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif

Susan & Grant
"One World, Two Wheels"

[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 18 January 2005).]

Well I am going to just put a HUGE "I VOTED AGAINST BUSH" sticker right next to my american flag.
No seriously this is a pretty touchy subject from the huge emails above mine.
I am starting my RTW trip in May and I was a little concerned at first about being American but I am hoping people can seperate the govt from the individual. Though if you go around advertising the Flag it makes you look like a Bush supporter even though you may not support his administration. So my advice dress up in red with a big maple leaf on your chest and say "A" allot oh and try to piss everyone off. I have had enuff of everybody liking Canadians (Just Kidding)
Lighten Up People.

With ref to the question above about stickers on my bike. Only
*Bridgestone (lots thereof. Company that kills people driving Fords, allegedly, and who sponsored me: Next time I'll buy my own, more hassle than they were worth.

*Free Tibet (because I had it lying around the house)

*Allah Mohammed (bought in Turkey: Impressed the locals in the Middle East: Drive up to any police station in Turkey, Syria or Jordan and give the copper a tour of the bike... he sees sticker and is your best buddy: free safe parking for the bike

*GB: apparently means "France" to the African illiterate.

Sorry no flags, although I do own a pair of Union Jack Y-fronts http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif

On the pizza box on the back I had a map of the world drawn by a nice man in Damascus, Syria. A petrol station attendant in Nicaragua knew exactly where Moscow was on the map. He studied there. A Harley rider near Denver, USA asked me "You been all over?". "All over what?" was my reply. "All over whatever that map is on your box". I think I'm off topic. Good night.

Cheers
Chris

------------------
TheBrightStuffDotCom

This thread has been GREAT. To each of you who have posted...I think I've learned a bit from the lot of ya'. Great points of views.

By the way, I do not have a canadian sticker on my bike. I love Canada, but the only Canadian sticker I got was in Yak British Columbia....I'll give you about 5 seconds to guess what it says....ok, times up...it says "I've bin to Yak n Bak".....I love it!
Anyway, you're some good people, I don't care where you're from. But I'm still keepin' my US citizenship a secret unless I'm talking over a beer with someone. I still haven't figured out how to get rid of the bike tags yet though....To those of you that have written from parts around the world, I apologize for the greedy, dishonest ways of my president. He does not represent me, because I value all people in all cultures no matter what country, whether you have oil or not.

Thanks.

One of the things I like about Horizons is that the chatter about politics is usually kept to a minimum. This time I'm going to break my own rule and contribute to the nonsense.

I am an American, and in late 2003 I spent a couple of months in Mexico and Central America. During that time I had only one incident where someone harassed me about my nationality, and he was European (I forget what nation). So what is the deal? Why are the people on this thread who are complaining about the US the loudest Europeans? Do you really think that it is "understandable" that people would run an American off the road and put crap on his seat for displaying his flag? George W. won the last election by 110,000 votes out of 80 million or so, this country is as divided on our foreign policy as any other country is on it. I'm old enough to remember the time when if someone said they were from the state of Mississippi they were immediately regarded as racist lynchers by people who considered themselves enlightened liberals, when of course there are many fine people from Mississippi.

The Viet Nam war divided this country much as the current war (I hate that phrase, it implies there will be another one when this one is done)is doing. One thing we learned from that war is that most soldiers are there because circumstance put them there, and most try to do their jobs honorably. The cold and sometimes violent reception these soldiers got when returning home was misplaced venting of anger at a policy they had no control over as individuals, just as current attacks on individual American tourists are misplaced. I saw on the news where a British woman protesting in London was shouting that all British soldiers in Iraq were war criminals. The parallel to our own Viet Nam protests is eerie. It seems that history is repeating itself in another part of the world.

I'm not defending our actions in Iraq, I'm just asking people to seperate your opinions of our government from those of us as individuals, as the Latin Americans have apparently done.

To stay nomially on topic, I don't display an American flag on my bike when out of the country, but only because I think it's obvious enough I'm not a local and don't like to call extra attention to myself, war or no war.

Unfortunately there are uninformed biggots and misguided activists in all quadrants of the political compass.

"Do you really think that it is "understandable" that people would run an American off the road and put crap on his seat for displaying his flag?"

I don't think anyone was implying that this sort of behaviour is acceptable. I think what they meant is that they could understand which emotions led to it: Uninformed biggotry and a misguided desire to make a protest against what may be seen by some as a massive faceless enemy,whether that's motorcyclists, travellers (you'd be surprised by some peoples' reactions to anything that is at odds with their own philosophy of life) or Americans.

As a veteran of the 1st Gulf War I whole heartedly condone this view.

We must remember a few things about any countries soldiers.

They tend to be from the poorest parts of society.
They tend to go to the military because they have no other chance of employment or escape from the Ghetto
They are often badly educated and sometimes badly lead.
They are not Diplomats they are simple people doing what they think they are told to.
They have almost no say in their countries politics often disenfranchised from voting due to being away from home.

Don’t blame the solider, few of us have any concept of how stressful and confusing combat is.

I am deeply saddened that the world politics have come to this, after all the opportunities of the end of the cold war. We have really squandered our chance of world peace. Mainly by electing people who have little backbone to stand up to Tyranny of a single Texan.

Charlie



[This message has been edited by braindead (edited 19 January 2005).]

I’m surprise of the reactions to my post... It’s likely my skill in English is not good enough and my idea is not clearly explained, as some of you guys notice, but I don’t think this is the point.

First, if I gave the impression of any anti-american feeling, I apologize, I never had that intention. I like the States (even if I don’t like their present politic), I traveled there intensively and I have many close American friends and colleagues.

About the thread, I simply find naïve the surprise of some of us that exposing a flag can provokes bad reactions. Should be clear to any wise traveler that people can misunderstand the exposure of a flag with a support for the politic of a country, especially in this period of strong international contrasts.

That looks as obvious to me as riding wearing a helmet or having insurance. That is why I had an “angry” reaction, as GlobalGS wrote.

Additionally, in Europe most of us don’t have the habit to display national flags. I know this behavior is more common in US, but here it can be misinterpreted as a kind of “nationalistic” approach, especially in this period of international tension. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, it’ simply a fact...

Whew! This is the busiest pub in town!

I agree with Pietro that flags have very different symbolism over here. You almost never see a union jack flying outside someone's house (and when you do it seems to be a statement that a right wing nationalist lives there) whereas back home flags are everywhere.

My plan? A big honkin' Quebec flag! That way I confuse most people and anger the rest of the Canadians ;p

[This message has been edited by canadianmike (edited 19 January 2005).]

I agree with most of what has been written here. However:

> If leaders are badly informed or uninformed,
> or let emotion guide their decisions, or don't think through all the possible
> consequences of their actions, they can certainly make bad decisions. If they have
> great power, the impact of those bad decisions can be massive.

In principle, I agree with this - if it was only that... I suggest people go and check out the link I posted above www.democracynow.org I'm currently reading Amy Goodman's book "The Exception to the Rulers". The people in power know very well what they are doing. Their aim is to get as powerful and rich as possible and they are prepared to kill millions for it (and have already done so). They also control all the big US TV stations. She compares them directly to the Nazis.

I'm German and I'm glad the Nazis were defeated. The Nazis weren't opposed in the beginning. The Red Cross sent a delegation to inspect a model concentration camp. Nobody seemed to ask the question why they existed in the first place and what was supposed to happen to their occupants later. Later, that was too late.

The point I'm trying to make here is: we are not seeing an inept administration blundering, but we are seeing ruthless killers at the controls of the world's largest military machine. And they are using it for their personal ends and those of the multi-nationals they are in bed with.

Don't take it from me. Check it out.

And go visit Iran and Syria now. The drums of war can be heard again in Washington.

------------------
Salut from Southern France, the bikers' paradise,

Peter.

This is a great thread, but I really think we should stay away from a purely political discussion.

I read someone's blog on the site that they had a lot of success with their peace stickers on their bike. I think he was an American and he had stickers ant-war and peace stickers on his bike and people loved it. So I was thinking of getting stickers that said "make love not war" http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
Brooklyn Dakar
http://motorcycleramblings.blogspot.com/

LONDON (Reuters) - A majority of people surveyed in a global poll think the re-election of George Bush (news - web sites) has made the world more dangerous and many view Americans negatively as well, the BBC said Wednesday.
The survey by the British broadcaster showed that only three countries -- India, the Philippines and Poland -- out of 21 polled thought the world was safer following Bush's election win in November.
Bush will be inaugurated for his second term Thursday.
On average across all countries, 58 percent of the 22,000 surveyed said they believed Bush's re-election made the world more dangerous.
"This is quite a grim picture for the U.S.," said Steven Kull, director of the Program on International Policy Attitudes at America's University of Maryland.
The survey found that 56 percent of Americans thought Bush's win was good for the world with 39 percent disagreeing.
Traditional U.S. allies in western Europe, such as Britain (64 percent), France (75 percent), and Germany (77 percent), were among the most negative about Bush's re-election.
A majority in Italy (54 percent) and Australia (61 percent), which both have troops in Iraq (news - web sites), also thought his win had made the world more dangerous.
Anti-Bush sentiment was strongest in Turkey, with 82 percent thinking his win was bad for peace compared to just 6 percent in support. A large majority in Latin American countries, including 58 percent in close neighbor Mexico, were also negative.
Analysts said the poll had far-reaching implications, suggesting a serious rise in anti-U.S. feeling in general, with 42 percent saying it had made them feel worse about Americans compared to 25 percent who made it think more of them.

IRAQ OPPOSITION

There was also overwhelming opposition to sending troops to Iraq, even among close allies such as Britain.

"Fully one in four British citizens say the Bush re-election has made them more opposed to sending troops to Iraq, resulting in a total of 63 per cent now opposed," said Doug Miller, president of GlobeScan which carried out the poll.

"Our research makes very clear that the re-election of President Bush (news - web sites) has further isolated America from the world."

The survey found that 47 percent of those questioned now see U.S. influence in the world as largely negative.

"Those saying the U.S. itself is having a clearly negative influence in the world still do not constitute a definitive world-wide majority, suggesting there may be some underlying openness to repairing relations with the U.S.," he said.

The survey was conducted between Nov. 15, 2004 and Jan. 5, 2005.

I couldn't resist posting that article I found a few minutes ago. Geeeeeesh....we should all work for the BBC. The above article nearly echoes everything we've been saying.....but I'd like to put an additional sentence on the above article paste in onto the last paragraph;....here it is.........."no shit!"

I hope the judge won't put me on super secret probation for not mentioning motorcycles in the above post. However, ponder this, doesn't a discussion about political awareness BENEFIT those of us that ride around the world?!!

Thank you very much, I'll sign autographs at a later date.

GlobalGS, (just to keep this on bikes and bike travel) http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif you asked how to "get rid of" your US plate - that's easy, unscrew it and throw it away... http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

But first, go to almost any bike shop in Europe and ask where to get a plate made. Many do it in house, or will send you to the local shop that does. (You may have noticed that Euro plates are all plastic laminated?)

Just use the same letters/numbers as your original plate, and you're good. You ONLY need the letters/numbers, nothing else. In theory, in Europe you also need - separately affixed - a country tag, but I doubt it would be a problem if you didn't have it. I ran a Euro plate for two years, in Europe, Africa and South and North America, no problem.

The North American stamped metal plate is the oddball, not the norm in the world, so the plastic is fine.

------------------
Grant Johnson

Seek, and ye shall find.
------------------------

One world, Two wheels.
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

Re "ponder this, doesn't a discussion about political awareness BENEFIT those of us that ride around the world?!!"

Yes, agreed. You'll notice this thread is still going... http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif

So long as people maintain their sense of humour and try to understand others points of view, this is all good stuff. Awareness of others opinions and ideas are what we ( HU ) are all about, and one of the big reasons this site exists.

------------------
Grant Johnson

Seek, and ye shall find.
------------------------

One world, Two wheels.
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

When travelling Europe in 03, we rarely saw flags on bikes or cars, but most displayed the countries symbol, and we did likewise.

For the record, we take most of our vacations by bike in the U.S.(more than I can recall), have family and friends there, my first U.S. bike trip in 1975 lasted 2 months (no problems), and we've always had a great time there.

But, in Europe we did have the CDN below our plate. Why? The war had just started and we had the sense it was going to be very unpopular; we didn't want someone mistaking our BC plate for an American plate, then doing something stupid like trashing the bike. I don't think it actually made any difference, because from most responses in Europe, they don't know what CDN stands for.

I would skip the flag again, but consider the symbol for travells outside N.A.

Grant, actually I was the one that asked about traveling without a US state license plate on the bike. Thanks for the feedback.

I will be traveling from the east across Russia first. Do you know if what you describe can be done in European Russia (or Siberia or the Russian Far East, for that matter) or will that be possible only in the EU countries?

Thanks again, Grant.

Mike

liketoride, sorry!

You are likely to only find it where they do such things, but nothing stopping you from making one anywhere.

It's just a piece of clear plastic, with black numbers stuck on the BACK side of it, then covered with a single large sheet of black or yellow usually.

So you're looking through the clear at the numbers, with a yellow background. Easy. Except for getting numbers that stick on in reverse.... although you could stick them to the backing, then mount the works. Not quite as solid, but if done well, should work fine.

If you're at home in the US you should be able to come up with something easily enough.

good luck, Grant

Susan, you wrote that the letter i quoted was one-sided and that's true. The original question was asking why are people angry with America and the replies have been trying to answer this. If the question had been "What do people love about America?" the answers would have been quite different.

GlobalGS - you wrote some fairly thoughtful responses to the replies you have received. But i want to reply to one comment you made: "Some of the countries that have gotten the blunt end of the stick (Iran, Syria, Iraq (invading Kuwait) etc....) have in the past acted aggressively and thereby deserved a good slap upside the head, by the big kid on the block". Perhaps you should compare the number of innocent people who have died and are still dying as a result of US aggression with the crimes committed by these other countries. Then you might be able to understand the anger throughout the world. I think Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda have a fairly similar philosophy to you on that one.

And as for the statistics you quoted, i suspect they would be a whole lot worse if more people actually knew what was going on. Most people don't know and that included Pete and I until about a month ago when an American friend sent us the above link to Democracy Now. DN is one of the very few independent (and therefore unbiased) media channels in the US. All of the mainstream media are owned by big business. As Amy Goodman writes: "This is a well-oiled propaganda machine that is re-packaging government spin and passing it off as journalism". It seems that the people of America are being brainwashed by hype. No wonder they are confused about the backlash or "blowback" as the CIA calls it. Wars (including the War on Terrorism) are being justified, marketed, implemented, sanitised and glorified. Do ordinary American people have any idea of extent of the death, injury and suffering their government is inflicting? Perhaps only the soldiers do, and i do feel really sorry for them.

I apologise for the length of my emails, but the reason i am writing so passionately about this is that i fear that we are balancing on the brink of a third world war. It seems to be mainly about rapidly diminishing oil resources, but in many developing countries supply of fresh water is also becoming a crucial issue. War is not the best way to solve these problems and maybe it is not too late to turn things about. Whatever happened to good old fashioned diplomacy and respect for human rights in dealing with problems?

I guess the key issue for me is that the massive poverty and suffering in the world has been exacerbated rather than relieved by US foreign policy, and most of the suffering and death is easily preventable. E.g. if the money spent on warmongering was instead spent on foreign aid and reconciliation.

If you want to see some really staggering statistics on poverty and the uneven distribution of wealth, have a look at the website of the Alliance for Sustainability: [URL=http://www.mtn.org/iasa/povstats.html]

Jenny


[This message has been edited by beddhist (edited 21 January 2005).]

Lucky for you that you got away with it. For the record, German authorities consider licence plates as documents. Any change can land you in hot water. German cops know what US plates look like, we used to have plenty of them in the country until a few years back, when all the US military had their own plates.

Austria is probably the only country where the country tag rule is enforced, even if only to make money out of it. (Even though EU reg'd vehicles with the new EU plates don't need them any more A cops issued tickets for this, in contravention of EU rules, cause the A govt. hadn't passed the appropriate rules yet.)

Oh yes, the Germans use the metal plates, too, as do most French (you can choose here).

In most other countries I guess you get away with hand-painted plates! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Salut from Southern France, the bikers' paradise,

Peter.

Hi all

All though I do not have a sticker or a flag of my country.I do have a sticker which is on my bike its not a nation but a Community
my Horizon Unlimited sticker
If you have not got one vist the souk and I'm sure Grant can help you out

Flags; what a great discussion, let it roam off topic once in a while as they all do, sure beats talking about carnets and leopard-skin tank bags. The trouble is we're all pretty much agreeing with eachother... Where's an ugly American when you need him to lock this thread out!
What happened to Global is shocking - think about it. it's pretty extreme. I can't help thinking that the flag must have been very blatant and not just lost among a box covered in other flags, as you see some times. Looks like that icon has become about as popular as a swastika these days. Remember how utterly uncool it appeared - at least from where I was watching with a groan - when they draped a flag over Saddam's falling statue that time? They could not get it off quick enough.
Someone else explained it above, but Americans are proud of their flag in a fairly normal, patriotic way (if that's your bag). Remember too that woman in Fahrenheit 9/11 (on UK telly next week) who hung hers out proudly every day, despite her experience. A practise unknown in the UK or maybe even Europe.
When I was in the US last summer and saw flags outside people's houses and 'God Bless our Troops', I assumed it was a hardcore KKK enclave and it gave me the creeps. I'm sure I was wrong. I was also nervous about travelling up there, so demonised have they become. Now it's becoming clear the country is very much divided down the middle, politically. I met especially great people, as you invariably do, some falling over themselves to apologise for the smirking chimp. And this was Idaho, redneck central I assumed!
Me, it would never occur to me to stick on a Brit or any flag - or even a GB sticker anymore. If they want to know where I'm from they just got to ask - though I think it's a very human instinct to do so, to size a stranger up. Like AndyT said, low profile is best - keep them guessing - as it's already glaringly obvious we're foreign and often a lot richer (the 'Range Rover' syndrome I've seen in Africa, not a great car at some borders). No need to rub it in. It's better for cornering too.
Piero S seemed pretty clear to me first time round and I agreed with him. Apart from the bit about 'loving his country' which I don't get at all. What's there to love about any country that isn't as good - maybe in other ways - somewhere else?
One thing I'm sure we've all discovered from our travels (and which Ted Simon mentioned in that video about him I watched last night) is that in the end we're all people. Take CB's advice, keep your flag on your underpants, along with other essentials

Chris S

------------------
Author of Sahara Overland II hardback edition and the Adventure Motorcycling Handbook, among other things

http://www.sahara-overland.com and http://www.adventure-motorcycling.com

In the Netherlands you can't buy plates that easy.
You have to show your (Dutch) bike papers.

I think in other EU-countries they have the same rule (or coming soon)

------------------
Freek (NL)

Hi,

I find the different opinions on here interesting.
Well described with words by many.
I guess that if a canadian flag can save your life, then take a canadian flag, if you need a french or an english flag, idem.
But I agree that the best is to avoid flags and everything that relates to national pride,
let the flags decorate places as the white house, buckingham or the elysée.
You can still be proud of your country if you wish.
Sure that americans are now badly seen out in the world, much due to the behaviour of their president.

The truth is...not only americans.

Also; EVERYONE that looks as them !

France is a good example for this in little scale.
Me I'm swedish but I live here in France, we all know french are funny greedy acting individuals.
When spaking french I keep some of my swedish accent, before, I was often compared to german,
now I'm often compared to american..this is just funny,

but I'm sure that in the middle east countries, anyone white taned rich tourist looking, will more and more be classified to the american kind; a power hungry invador, without understanding for what is different.
A consumer for 40% of the worlds ressources.

So the keyword is sympathy, it mustn't be false of course, but I think that most here have understanding of those in the 3d countries/Europe/Usa who aren't the Bush or Oussama kind= a large number.

Its obvious that if you chose to travel, it's because you're an open minded kind of
person.
So you'll just have to use common sense and demonstrate sympathy.

Why not arab stickers, saying something similar to make love & not war.

Matt

I talked to a German who ordered food in Paris. He ordered in English because his French is horrible. He said they were rude to him and then when it was explained he was speaking English as a common language since he didn't know French, they apologized to him. They were rude because they thought he was American.

Which makes me think, how was the original poster acting? I give people the benefit of the doubt, but if he was being an Ugly American, then maybe he had it coming. I don't know him, and I don't know the situation of the story. I've only read his version. I hope that an overlander knows better, but I wasn't there.

--Dave

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Trying to ride (and work) my way round the world on a 1965 Ducati 250cc. Australia, New Zealand and Japan are first. http://nokilli.com/rtw/

Maybe I'm shallow but the purpose of my international traveling is to promote understanding--about those I encounter and myself as an American. Let's face it, we're all cultural junkies but also ambassadors for where we came.

Governments may not get along but people do. I always fire the first volley in the attack by knocking over locals with a big stupid smile and obvious Delighted-to-be-here look on my face. It's an effective weapon.

This has worked well in Latin America, Russia, Mongolia, Eastern Europe and the Middle East. I was even treated like family by Palestians when visiting Gaza after obtaining a very difficult-to-issue permit from the Israeli army. I was the sole Westerner at Dr. Barghudis Presidential rally in Jericho and unwittingly met with Hammas face to face in Gaza on election day.

Sorry to hear about problems in Western Europe. When I was in Munich for kidney stone treatment, the staff, doctors and people on the street were extremely kind. Hospital employees brought family members in to meet the wandering Yankee.

I love my country but if I wave flags while traveling it's the ones from countries visited. I'm a proud American but also a citizen of the planet and while making a point to act that way, expect others to also.

There are sometimes situations encountering crowds with questionable intent, at which time I simply announce myself:

"I have traveled around the world to visit your city and learn about the people, now what do you want to show me?"

This has never failed as they take a second look at my frayed clothes and crusty machine.
The next thing is invitations for tea, meals or tours.

As members of the world riding community we should disregard differences and emphasize what we have in common. Complaining about each other's elected leaders doesn't change anyones mind. I have a few bones to pick with leaders around the world as well as my own but to rant here only further divides a family that should be promoting unity.

As a prisoner of the ELN in Colombia a few years ago, some of the political officers interogating me almost showed signs of reason. As they were holding my head underwater, spitting in my face and yelling things about the president, in a moment of calm, I managed a few questions of my own.

"Do you approve of what your government does?

"No!"

"Then what the hell makes you think I approve of mine?"

Suerte amigos

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Around the World on Two Wheels www.strikingviking.net

Proud of my country....
Proud of my flag.....
Proud of what?

I really dont understand what everybody is so proud about. We (as nations) have little or nothing to be proud about. Most of the countries RTW-riders prefer to travel to, and brag about for the rest of our lives, are countries our "proud nations" have raped and plundered for centuries. Stuff the flags, stickers and the "over the top" comments about how much "I love my country". Dont ride the 3rd world as an ambassador for your country, return home as their ambassador. They shure could need it.

we just want to ride our bikes.....and smile and wave at people......

Obviously, a nerve has been touched here. I wish this was the most appropriate forum to discuss our concerns with our current administration because I somethimes feel like my head will blow up if I can't get it off my chest. But it's not, this forum strikes me as being about no borders, you know, One World.
I know I wasn't alone in crying tears of frustration when I learned of that Bush and his crew had been re-elected but remember that he was elected in a democratic process. If " in a democracy the people get the government they deserve" is true then us Yanks need to do some housecleaning. We helped elect Bush either by our actions or, more likely, our inaction. We need to be involved and informed to make our govenment truly representative.
My father returned from Europe in 1945 with 2 Purple Hearts and shrapnel in his body to help make it possible for people there to express themselves freely. Too bad that seems forgotten.

Appropriate handle there Dizzy. Remember the drill, engage brain before mouth.
http://www.strikingviking.net/sv/mod...rder=0&thold=0

Just curious what you do to make the world a better place? You sound so friendly.

Striking Viking...
Ok, your comments where in place. Got perhaps a bit carried away there....

I,m afraid I dont do much more than the next person, although the ambitions are there.


[This message has been edited by Dizzie (edited 25 January 2005).]

What l think, is that you don't have to go to
Afghanistan to find people who hates freedom,
you'll find them at home if you seek!

Anyhow, when out in the world, it's also very
important to respect yourself, you can't reduce yourself being ashamed of your origins,
then you'll become an easy victm!
Now, the origins is not either a main concern, though for sure, you'll never change them!
Someone said that you have to help yourself to be able to help others, l believe nothing is more true.

Haters are brainwashed victims, whos harmony have been ripped away for better controlling of them..
Take the example of the middle east extremists
, they begin "hate" education very young,
the method is old as the world, destroy every feeling of liberty, self confidence, calm, individuality, pride and rebuild whats left as you wish.
When you can't feel harmony, you can't be yourself.
When you can't be yourself, you can't feel harmony.
People without harmony are the ones doing crual acts!

The pride you feel for your country(s) can be other than the old politics, what makes you proud is your history, your view of things and all those normal stuff that never change.

You have to keep a constance in your mind, to do about what you want and be able to "be out" for some time, where the sky is not allways pure blue and the roses not allways pure red.

Regards,

Mattias

Don't apologise Dizzie - you are entitled to your views as much as anybody else. Love your comment about not travelling to 3rd world countries as your country's ambassador but returning as another's ambassador!! Most of us are full of ourselves - there wouldn't be all the responses on this thread otherwise!

Yes, I just want to also say the line about being an ambassador was excellent and with your permission I might use it next time someone asks me why I am riding around their country on a motorcycle.


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Brooklyn Dakar
http://motorcycleramblings.blogspot.com/

I think this is how we travellers should all see it. Not to get too emotional. People are stupid, including goverments, but that doesn't change the civilian who really wants something - to travel, to see the world.

Let us hope there's still the world in decades to come...

Margus

if i had time and money i might read this but i´m not gonna waste my time in Chile in the internet and in the end it won´t make any difference.
by the way if i was american which i´m not you´d never see me put a target, sorry flag, on my bike.
stay neutral, happy and enjoy the ride

It seems I have stumbled on a web site full of insecure yanks! Please just ride your bloody bikes and tell us about your adventures. I have spent nearly 12 months and 25,000k in Asia, with no problems from fellow bikers, except yanks...you are your own worst enemy!

Out of 70 posts on this thread, only 23 are from Americans. The American flag means so many different things to people in this country (I'm one of your Yanks) that I'm really interested to hear what it means to people from other countries, especially well travelled people as most of the people on this forum are. If that makes me insecure, then we really do have problems.

Tomforde, careful please - remember we're trying not to get personal, but to offer constructive advice, ideas and opinions on the subject.

(and that some people are a little more sensitive than your average toughened from birth, thick-skinned aussie...) http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif

(and that's a positive comment on Aussies, as I'm proud to be one (albeit naturalised)) AND not a negative comment on others, just an observation of a fact of life.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/biggrin.gif treading delicately...

Good commentary, AndyT!

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Grant Johnson

Seek, and ye shall find.
------------------------

One world, Two wheels.
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

Flags have been for a long time a symbol of division and in some cases of domination (historically).
Maybe these times are just the transition to Lennon´s dream (imagine there´s no countries).
I suggest you use a BIG flag with Grant´s "ONE WORLD TWO WHEELS" It makes averyone happy, it´s fun and a great chat oppener.
Why not we the moto-weirdos start a world brotherhood with this kind of symbols?

Oh, come ON, hmoro, If Grant, Susan and the gang qualify as moto-weirdos, then I reckon they're having a darn good shot at doing just that.
Hang on in there, guys!
J http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by John Roberts (edited 26 January 2005).]

John Roberts, maybe you missunderstood me.
What you say is exactly what I wanted to mean.
Thank you for thinking the same way.
Lets all just be ONE WORLD, TWO WHEELS!


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Life is the process of making known the unknown. MOROcycler

Travel thru montana, a US flag is normal but a flag from some other country!!!!!! You might have a steak dinner and a warm bed inflicted upon you.
Peace love and light.

Several references have been made on this thread to the fact it is common in the US for citizens to fly flags at their homes, whereas this is rare in Europe. This difference has been attributed to "nationalistic" or "patriotic" reasons. I believe the reasons why, at this point in time, displaying the flag is so common in the US are somewhat different, and would like to explain what I believe are the real reasons.

At least in the small community where I lived at the time, it was very unusual to see a US flag displayed at a home before the 9/11 attacks - I doubt if more than 1 - 2% did this. Within 48 hours of the attacks there were flags everywhere, by the thousands. I would estimate that 90% of the homes in that community now displayed flags, and they were commonly seen on automobiles and motorcycles also. I'm certain this was typical nationwide.

The displaying of the flag during that terrible time was, at least as I see it, a symbol of mourning and grief, caring about the suffering of others, and of solidarity with and support for the people of New York City who had suffered so much from the attack.

Flags are much less commonly displayed now than they were for the first few weeks after 9/11, but it is still considerably more common than it was prior to that date. Regarding the current tendency for Americans to display the US flag on their bikes when traveling, I assume that's somewhat of a cross over from the home flag display phenomenon. I personally have never displayed a flag on any of my motor vehicles, and never intend to do so. I did display the flag at my home for a few weeks after 9/ll for the reasons given above.

I hope this helps our friends in other countries understand the current tendency for Americans to display the flag, and that it isn't necessarily a sign of right wing, super-patriotic behavior, and certainly doesn't have any evil intent.

Mike

It seems kind of funny everybody is pissed at the "yanks". We the "yanks" had 9/11 so we acted. Who would not have? Spain gets attacked and they go communist. I have lived in the Middle East (Turkey). People do not relize that the Middle Eastern culture is much different than western culture. I always find it kind of funny when people say it is not a religious war. They attacked us and said it was a religious war. That is there own admission. Unfortunately I believe America willl end up paying the price for its ignorance. Just my .02

Starting to stray off the topic of flags, but... I think the U.S. had huge world support following Sept 11th, and the same support going into Afghanastan.

Going into Iraq?

All we have are our opinions, rightly or wrongly, but its clear to me, the world is pissed at the U.S. involvement in Iraq, and not the general war on terrorisim.

Free Accomodation for visitors. Just wanted to flag this up http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif Hi, I have enjoyed this thread. I'm kinda new to this board but extend free accomodation to folks. There's a G8 meeting 8 miles from my flat this year so I'm off to Mo(o)rocco. Although an experienced motorcyclist I've not traveled much in recent years so I needed a newer map of how the land lies. Being a carbon conscious type of gentleman I tried to nick one off a poster's website (but right clicking was verboten!) so here's the link. Please advise if this is current for my travels? http://www.thebrightstuff.com/mapWorldAlternative.htm

old women in their 70's lining up to vote in front of graffitti signs reading "if you vote, you die".

It's very humbling, to me anyway. I would like to think, but am I not sure, that I would have that kind of courage and conviction. I'm so proud for the Iraqi's today.


David Cate
Knoxville, TN USA

Personally, I'm only "pissed" with your govt.

You had 9/11, because your govt. and your multi-nationals have been going round killing innocent people by the millions and trampling their rights into the dirt, in the name of freedom, but in reality for power and profit. Please, don't take my word for it, check out my link above.

I didn't know Spain had "gone communist". As far as I know they elected a socialist govt., cause the conservative one sent its soldiers to Iraq, ignoring the will of the people. That's democracy in action (for once...).

I agree with you that ME culture is different. So what?

I also agree very much with your last statement. Except, the price you will be paying will be the end of your empire with all the suffering that goes with it. (I suspect other people will be paying an even higher price, but then, they already are.) It's completely avoidable, you just have to stop taking all your "news" from the corporate-controlled media and start to see things the way they really are. Try watching "Democracy Now!", read Amy Godman's book, or that of John Perkins "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". You will be outraged.

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Salut from Southern France, the bikers' paradise,

Peter.

There are a lot of interesting arguments on this thread. Some good, some bad and some ugly.

What I find suprising is that so many of you guys (and girls) who have been around in the world a bit, seem to have fallen for a lot of anti-american propaganda instigated by the (former) Sovjet Union. It's rather clear that not all of your animosity towards the US is just because of Bush and his current wrongdoings. Does the word "Psyops" mean anything to any of you??? Like it or not (or maybe in this case; realize it or not...), a lot of European media and journalists have spewed out the leftist party line for so long that half-truths and fabrications have become "fact", in a nice attempt to draw attention away from the downsides of socialism and communism in practice. It's so much easier to bash the US...

The above was a bit offtopic (although not any more than a lot of the other posts above), but hopefully some of you will open your eyes at the bigger picture, and what has gone on, and is going on besides Bush/America. Things in the world aren't always as simple, and black/white as they may seem.

Back to the topic of flags; There is no way I can sympathize with, nor "understand" the emotions of people who resort to vandalism and violence towards a lonely biker (or 4x4 overlander) simply because he has his nations flag showing. It's sad that people in the world have become so ignorant that they start mixing individual citizens (who are openminded enough to vist their country!) together with unpopular politics.

Erik

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Well said Eric! The people who treated Global that way during his travells are no better than the people responsible for giving America such a bad name in the first place.

...I have yet to meet an overland adventurer who'se actions caused me to dis-like them. People like us tend to fall from the same tree. You dont see any hard-core Republican facists travelling around the globe on a motorcycle, do you? I think most people who would support American foreign policy are quite content staying in their own country, comfortable and oblivious to the opinion of the other 5 1/2 billion people out there. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/frown.gif

I think Nelson Mandela has summed the whole situation up quite nicely: "It is a tragedy what is happening, what Bush is doing in Iraq"... "What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust".

I have heard of "psyops" and according to a top American army general it is being used by the U.S government (obviously with great success) to brainwash both the American public and the rest of the world into accepting their lies and propaganda.

I guess the world can only hope and pray that the American people wake up to what is happening and try to do something before it is too late.

For more details on the situation in Iraq see:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/thebadnews.html

Jenny

I must be honest, I´ve never liked politics.
We bikers have, I think, real valors in the base, our community relies on freedom, respect and awareness.
Hard to carry in a sometimes greedy world where some believe crap will be the answer to their strange emptyness.
Just stay out of politics and you´ll be fine, let others watch you riding and maybe at the next election they´ll be to busy prepping their new bike instead of supporting any socialist, republican, nazi, terrorist, etc power hugry guru.

No matter how you are, you´ll find enemys everywhere but also much sympathy.
Stay alive and enjoy every chapter.

On the news I saw a GI pulling out a just shoot to death civil irakian from a car, the GI then said to reporter "this war is not worth all of the victims..", the guy looked really honest and his eyes was telling "how the hell could peoples home in front their televisions understand how it REALLY is".
Who could represent America better than a honest soldier? the greedy grandmomies and their right for vote?

I´m very happy about this forum,

Matt

I think flags do more bad than good no matter what country they come from. Its not an including symbol, its an excluding symbol.

Just these:

Did anyone notice that the vandalism was against the bike, not the person?


Not all overlanders that I crossed on my path where that open minded. The average openmindedness might be somewhat better then ... average though.

Just recalling the original Text: "and I got ran off the road (intentionally) "
and this means PERSONALLY.
I found this Topic to be one of the hottest at this time. Who can tell when it is going to end but,
Just Common Sense (the most un-common of the senses) Do not show where you were born if that puts you in danger! Period.
I think all these posts have been a good excuse for many people to express their disaproval NOT to those who damaged our fellow motocyler, but to throw hate to the US government.
It is fun to see how little is needed to triger the need of expressing disagreement.
It is nice to be part of the world but it is bad to be part of a country.



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Life is the process of making known the unknown. MOROcycler

One question what millions have we been killing? Who? When and Where?

I hate to say this, but

Last warning -

Please keep this thread on point or it will be shut down.

No matter what country you are from, or what your political opinions are of other countries politics, please remember that we are all supposed to be friends here, and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

And that includes rants about the rightness or wrongness of ANY countries political positions or actions.

As someone who has lived for years on four different continents, in six countries, I could make some lengthy and pointed comments about spin, but I won't. Suffice it to say that no country is all right, or all wrong. And it very much depends on YOUR OPINION whether it's right or wrong. And who's to say you're right anyway - there's an enormous amount of lies and spin out there, from all countries, and NONE of us have a corner on the REAL truth. The only truth we can rely on is what we see with our own eyes - and that is coloured by our own experiences in life, and where and how we were raised.

So please, let's keep the political rants and attempts to convert others to our way of thinking out of here. If you want to do that, fine, but please do it over a beer in a pub somewhere interesting.

The question here for us as motorcycle travellers is in essence:

-How to deal with the question of displaying our flags on our bikes - bad idea, or good idea?

-How do we deal with different nationalities opinions of us, good or bad?

-Do we pretend to be from another country if necessary, or just keep a low profile?

-Do we need to AVOID some countries simply BECAUSE of our nationality?


The obvious one, was it right for the scum (you can tell my opinion here) to run GlobalGS off the road, or pile crap on his seat, is easy.

I don't think anyone here would abuse anyone from any country if they were travelling through their own country, regardless of politics, so let's have some respect for others opinions and sensibilities here.

thanks! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Grant

I hate to say I told you so, but I did. And many of you jumped on my case on another thread about the danger. Travel for Americans is getting more dangerous. We weren’t very popular before Bushies but not it is much worse. Flag waivers are silly anyway.

What oil should I use ?

Would that be for high performance, or long change intervals, John? And on your antedeluvian beemerrunforeveris, or something really pretty and covered in nice shiny plastic?

GlobalGS Started this topic with the following words.......
"I don't want to start a huge political rant but...."

uh... well
Just as on the road, things doesent always go as we plan :-)


[This message has been edited by Dizzie (edited 02 February 2005).]

Always use sunscreen.

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Brooklyn Dakar
http://motorcycleramblings.blogspot.com/

I think those putting pieces on the bike seat wouldn´t go further in violence, at least in France where I live, people can be childish but most have limits!
Just bark them off or clean the seat.
I get ran off the road each day here, ever seen french driving!?
Maybe as a more disciplinated american you feel targeted personally, when you shouldn´t.

I´ll put a horizons flag on my bike to "represent" this great forum.

Matt



[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 13 February 2005).]

As far as getting run off the road is concerned, IMHO it has nothing to do with your nationality, your governments foreign policy initiatives or what stickers you do or don't have stuck on your bike... There are 2 reasons for getting knocked of you bike

1. You're on a bike (no sh*t Sherlock)

and directly tied in with this

2. The moron who hits you is in a car/truck/bus whatever on 4+ wheels and hence feels morally obliged to behave like he/she is blind/stupid/ignorant. IMHO, 99.2437819% (note precise statistics) of car drivers gain their car-license by sending off 5 vouchers from the back of breakfast cereal packs and claiming their free driving license.

ChrisB

PS. I have to agree with Mr Scott above: Maybe the allegedly "offensive" Stars and Strips GlobalGS refers to was more prominent than just one small sticker among many stickers...

PPs. As GlobalGS's handle is includes GS, possibly he rides that famous German marque. Possibly the merde-culprit had a dislike for BMWs rather than American flags?

I have an equal loathing for Dubbya and BMW. Check my site for my world tour of Motor mechanics/ welders... (Grant and others: Hint, this is a wind up, not the prompt for another mass debate on the pros and cons of Beemers/ how I was just unlucky/ how I didn't look after Goaty)

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TheBrightStuffDotCom

Two important things to remember:
1)you can't get pregnant (or get someone else pregnant) the first time you have sex;

2)Wherever you go, there you are.

I can't claim credit for either of those life-rules, but I sure do live by 'em.

Flags schmags