Tourists killed by gunmen near Gilgit, Pakistan off the KKH
 

Location - near Fairy Meadows, about 100km from Gilgit

BBC News - Gunmen kill nine tourists in Kashmir

this is not good news at all, at makes me very nervy, as this type of attack the attackers dress up as armed forces/police. So when you rock up at a checkpoint, or get a knock at your guesthouse door how are you supposed to tell..

RIP to the poor tourists murdered, and for every Pakistani killed in futile conflict at the moment...

I hope they don't close the KKH to tourists.... only time will tell...

Gunmen kill nine foreign tourists and their guide in Nanga Parbat Base Camp
 

Hi everyone, one of the famous Turkish climber a firend of mine was at the base camp during the attack. I know that he is safe now, but sadly the news are true.

Anybody from Pakistan can tell about these groups that attacked foreigners? I didn't heard about that kind of attacks in that area nowadays or in last years.

Details are here;

Gunmen stormed a hotel in Nanga Parbat, a remote part of northern Pakistan, on Sunday and killed nine foreign tourists and a Pakistani guide near the foot of one of the world's tallest mountains, police and security officials said.

Five Ukrainians, three Chinese, a Russian and their guide were killed in the attack in a remote resort area near the base camp for the 8,125-metre snow-covered Nanga Parbat peak, a popular destination for adventurous trekkers, officials said.

“Unknown people entered a hotel where foreign tourists were staying last night and opened fire,” Ali Sher, a senior police officer in Gilgit-Baltistan province, told Reuters.

Sher had earlier said 10 foreign tourists were killed, but officials revised the tally as fresh reports arrived from the area.

A Pakistani militant group known as Jundullah claimed responsibility for the attack.

“These foreigners are our enemies and we proudly claim responsibility for killing them and will continue such attacks in the future as well,” Jundullah spokesman Ahmed Marwat told Reuters by telephone.

The same group has claimed reponsibility for a series of attacks on members of the country's Shia Muslim minority, in northern Pakistan, including an ambush in February 2012 when gunmen shot 18 bus passengers by the roadside.

The gunmen fled after the attack on the hotel, which took place at about 1 am on Sunday, Sher said.

A senior government official said a large number of security personnel had been sent to the area.

“Since the area is very remote with no roads or transport, the bodies will have to be retrieved by helicopter,” the official said.

Gilgit-Baltistan, which borders China and Kashmir, had been considered one of the more secure areas of Pakistan, but has witnessed a spate of attacks by militants targeting members of Pakistan's Shia minority in recent years.

It was the first time foreign tourists had been attacked in the province, which is famous for its natural beauty. Pakistan receives few foreign tourists, but a trickle of visitors is tempted by the spectacular mountain scenery in its northern areas, where the Hindu Kush, Karakoram and Himalaya mountain ranges converge.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and President Asif Ali Zardari have strongly condemned the incident.

Terrible pity that ISLAMIC terrorism is reaching beautiful hitherto peaceful parts of the earth like this. The local people will be the first to suffer as travelers and tourists alike will choose to go elsewhere. :(

This is the first time I have heard of such things happening in this beautiful part of Pakistan.

My thoughts go out to the families of those murdered by these monsters. :(

there is nothing particularly Islamic about a Taliban terrorist attack, its like saying the Ku Klux Klan represent Christianity,

Why?

More people get killed on the roads of the UK.
A bus load went down a ravine in Montenegro today during a deluge of rain, but no one has posted that in here, yet.
It's another case of "being in the wrong place at the wrong time" - same as someone who dies in their bed when their chimney collapses and comes crashing through the roof.

Yep, that is giving in to those who perpetrate these atrocities in the name of Islam; sometimes in the name of the Sunni branch, sometimes in the name of t'others, but always using the religion of Islam as the excuse/distorted reasoning (lack of).

This is a travel forum and not the right place to talk about PR.
(Politics,Religion) and keep a religion responsible for terrorism.

Its global terrorism and everywhere..Remember Oslo Utoya Island on 22.July.2012 and dont trust media that much..

Religion is between my heart and my God.We must respect others to be respected for a more peaceful world..

Also getting visas will be more easy and travelling more happy this way!!!!

no, I've done the KKH, what I mean is that when you are rolling up to a check point you are not sure if they are genuine or not.. whether you get a friendly greeting or a shot in the head.

Not long before I passed through, a group of pilgrims were hauled off a bus by a 'military' checkpoint, and then shot.

At least 20 Shias pulled off bus, shot dead in northern Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Who can you trust?

I can't exactly ask 'are you the real thing or a terrorist'?

you're right, this is no place for the discussion of politics or religion. it IS, however, the right place to talk about SAFETY.

it is not about the religion being responsible for terrorism, just a whole mess of fools running around killing people in the name of their "god." unfortunately, the world has seen this before. it may not be what "god" wants. but as long as people keep saying they are killing in the name of "god" that particular religion is going to be blamed.

lastly, the taliban are muslim fanatics and claim that what they are doing is in the name of their "god."

So you're going to not make this a religious discussion by...er...making it a religious discussion? Well done. Very classy. :rolleyes:

Anyway this sort of stuff is always political and to do with territory and power and wealth, and disparities therein. It's never about religion per se

More importantly its usually about incredibly stupid people with no education and few aspirations striking out at the world. Never doubt that the same would not happen anywhere in the world if conditions became bad enough and the people as uneducated and hopeless

You confirm my point; you are/were "in or around the wrong place" and who knows how close you have come to being "at the wrong time" as well.
You can only make a judgement based on all the factors, at that specific time and space continuum.

This other thread on the same subject asked about the perpetrators:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...tourists-70963

The group mentioned in your own link claimed responsibility yesterday (I have already forgotten the name attributed to them), along with a separate claim of responsibility from the so-called Pakistani Taliban.
Hereafter, it is a case of yet another day, so there will be little further notice paid to this particular event, except by those who are directly affected.


On some days, no one!
Not the politicians, not the religious leaders, not the religious zealots, not even your own riding partner, on a really bad day.

I always find this approach to the subject of travel to be very strange: without some modicum of understanding of the local politics/religion (which go hand-in-hand in many parts of the world) then how is one to gain value from travelling? In fact, why bother travelling? Why not do something more useful?

Incidentally, there is rarely any discussion in the HUBB of the motivation for travel; sometimes there is some vague notion of "saving the world" or helping with some specific charity (for the latter there is considerable scepticism within some threads about the motivation of some of these efforts).

What is the value in travel? What is the value of travelling by motorcycle?
OK, those are really big questions! ----- is this a travel forum or "Travellers advisories, safety and security on the road", whether the road be the KKH or some road in Montenegro?

For me, the significance of this event goes beyond the terrible tragedy for the victims and their families and friends, and the impending loss of income of those local people in Gilgit Baltistan whose livelihood is based on tourism. I have been planning a RTW route for awhile, and I have wanted to travel the route from Kashgar, China into Pakistan and then on through Lahore to India. Prior to this event, the Gilgit area seemed plagued with sectarian violence, such as that which occurred in August 2012, but not a place where foreigners were likely to be targeted. Now, however, if foreign tourists are going to be gunned down while they sleep by Taliban, this probably rules me out (though I don't plan to leave for another 20 months). Every rider will need to make his own calculus, perhaps weighing the principles of not bowing to terrorists and the beauty of the KKH vs. the potential personal dangers. Yes, you are more likely to be hit be a truck in Delhi. But for my personal trip, as a US citizen (who has lived abroad for 20 years) with three college aged children back at home, I don't think I'll include Gilgit on this trip. Lots of great roads, cultures, people, food, etc on other routes. This is very disappointing for me - my last trip to Pakistan was 30 years ago - and I was keen to go back. Who knows, maybe things will change in the next year? But at least recently, it appears to me that Pakistan is becoming more challenging rather than easier. Time to get the maps back out...

Different strokes for different folks I guess, but while I am perfectly willing to risk my life in some pretty remote places or even the dangerous roads of the UK, I try to avoid areas where the local populace or parts thereof are actively seeking to kill me.

It is depressing that such wonderful places are riven by such strife and that a handful of murderous loonies can have such a deleterious effect upon locals and visitors.

Pray for a quick resolution and a return to safety, I guess

i guess you entirely missed the point of safety going hand in hand with religion in certain places...

i for one have no qualms about discussing religion or politics if and as they relate to safety in a forum on travel safety. the point is to inform people. if the violence is a result of religious fanatics or political unrest, the discussion should go forward limited only by relevance to the situation.

I doubt its the local populace that want kill you.
The attack took place some way off the KKh at or near Nanga Parbat base camp... its a fair hike from the road to there.
Gilgit is a "frontier" town and felt like it in some parts when I was there. At the same time we were befriended by a local guy that took us round the bazaar for the day.
Dassu, that is on the KKH, had a much more sinister air about it. We were staying at the Khyber Lodge Hotel when the Red Mosque incident was taking place in Islamabad. Apart from a few gunshots from/on the roof The Pakistani tourist guys staying there were very amiable and even fed us for a couple of days as supplies were running short due to rock-slide near Pattan that closed the road for a week.

Most people just want to get on with their lives. Only the radicals want to harm you. Its the same everywhere.

But it's not religion is it, it's the criminal actions of crazed loonies. If it was religion then exactly the same would be happening everywhere where people of a certain religion live, which is clearly not the case.

The actions of these idiots is neither mandated nor condoned by any religion on the surface of the earth; they may claim they are acting religiously but that's just bullshit, and you repeating those claims as if they are correct is a case of falling for their propaganda.

So why do they do it? Like I said, economic issues, territorial disputes, money, power, glory, feelings of humiliation; all the worst effects of the 'haves and havenots' splits that underpin the global economic and gubernatorial system with all its disparities, not to mention simple bad-assery; evil in some hearts

I think we can quite clearly say 'watch out for X' or 'be careful in Y because of local tensions' etc without casting aspersions on local peoples, religions, traditions, customs etc

good God man! you really can't read! it's as if you read someone else's posts and are trying to pick a fight with me. anyway, i made my point and will not beleaguer this ridiculous matter.

Thanks for your enlightening words

Just as an example, when visiting Northern Ireland it is probably best to know if you are in a Catholic or Protestant neighbourhood, even today.
Within Baltistan, it seems to be a problem if you adhere to the Shia form of Islam.
It is an excellent point, well made, that such violence has now been perpetrated on the ferengi in the region rather than on only the local population; however, this is certainly not a new phenomena in many other parts of the planet.

Anyone, on a personal level, or State level, can be motivated by one (or more combinations) of:-
1.Greed, usually for money (name your price, I'll double it and you will do my bidding).
2.Vanity (Self-aggrandisement).
3.Revenge (I will help you to extract vengenge on your enemy, and in return ..............).
4.Fear.

To this short list we can add Fanaticism/Zealotry, which has existed throughout recorded history, but it has become common nowadays, and it is spreading. The historians of the future might be able to bring more light on this aspect.

Ladies and Gentlemen, lets refrain from unnecessarily associating religions and nationalities with untoward incidents. Lets improve the public image of bikers making them look more civilized and educated.

We, Pakistanis are already suffering and can do without more.
Everything isn't as simple as the media wants you to believe. Seeds of this nonsense were carefully planted in 80s by the lone super power and later nurtured, financed and armed by the same.


‪Hillary Clinton CONFESSION About TALIBAN- US responsible for Pakistan situation‬‏ - YouTube - Video Dailymotion

And then they shamelessly left making me deal with this utter nonsense alone.

yes, obviously all of pakistan's problems are the US' fault. :rolleyes2:

yes because in the 80's there was only one super-power...

And yet, it's not logical, as Spock would say.
Nor are those carrying out these atrocities necessarily drawn from locals.

There is far more chance of ending your days in a traffic accident etc etc than being shot to death in some remote area of the world.
It may be a good concept to stay away from popular haunts of the ferengi, whether it be a well-known hotel for climbers at Nanga Parbat base camp, or a bar on the island of Bali.

You don't have to be a super power to roll the dice
 

But there is more than one player at the table.
A Deadly Triangle: Afghanistan, Pakistan and India | Brookings Institution

You're right that many of them might not be locals, I guess I should have said that I generally avoid areas where there are any people that are actively trying to kill me, regardless of where they're from.

But I disagree that it is not logical, for a couple of reasons. While you might be right that I'm at much risk riding the streets of Moscow as travelling in the tribal areas in Pakistan, you're missing the point. While I could be struck by a meteorite or hit by a bus in Moscow, this is my home, I feel comfortable with the risks here and rightly or wrongly I think I can--and indeed have--dealt with the risks here by keeping my wits about me.

Moreover, I travel for relaxation and enjoyment and to interact with the local populace, but guess what--if I have to worry about there being a militant checkpoint around every corner, or whether my innkeep or the waiter is alerting the local nutjobs as soon as I've checked in, I won't relax or enjoy the trip, or have any desire to deal with locals. So what exactly is the point of travelling to such places? To see some natural beauty? I can see that in many places. Just to say I went there? Sorry, not interested...

I am sure that we all do, to one extent or another, and that is the issue at the heart of the nervousness expressed earlier.
It just remains the case that while we are not prepared to be gunned down, or blown up, during our travels, we do accept the statistically more likely causes of death or serious injury as beiing tolerable.


Quite so.
I'm aware of this phenomena which is very prevalent among humans - Spock can't understand us for this reason alone!!
To stick with the traffic example, a high proportion of traffic accidents occur to people who are close to their "home patch"; they are on known ground and tend to drop their guard - a case of familiarity breeds complacency, is one way of expressing this. There are numerous examples.


Yes, this is another phenomena, such as tourism in post-conflict areas.
It has a range of manifestations, including the oft quoted "bragging rights down the pub".
Similarly, I have little interest in skipping through a country on a transit visa, seeing a few sites/sights-that-must-be-seen and sticking a badge/flag on the panniers; the "been there, done that, collected another country" syndrome.
Interaction with people, yes! To do that, it is best to have an inkling of the local situation, background, history, religious following(s) and similar factors.

For what it is worth. I was hoping to go to this area next year to climb broad peak and an attempt on K2. I have decided in light of recent events not to go. I believe there is a great deal of difference between being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being part of a target group.

These bad guys aren't especially clever but they are cunning and it is not likely that their next targets will be climbers in the high Himalaya.
Apart from that, a year is a long time for things to change, but I do understand that you need to make such climbing plans well ahead of the due date, for many reasons.

Moreover, I travel for relaxation and enjoyment and to interact with the local populace, but guess what--if I have to worry about there being a militant checkpoint around every corner, or whether my innkeep or the waiter is alerting the local nutjobs as soon as I've checked in, I won't relax or enjoy the trip, or have any desire to deal with locals. So what exactly is the point of travelling to such places? To see some natural beauty? I can see that in many places. Just to say I went there? Sorry, not interested...[/QUOTE]

Pakistan is certainly not very predictable now a days. Maybe because of my familiarity it doesn't bother me much but those who get stressed up with these happenings should wait for things to improve.

It is challenging but if you take it in the stride it eases out. I travel all across the country with family without any worries. It's fantastic but comes with a pinch of salt. Let's hope it improves soon.

Cheers

I agree, we should look at safety ,especially if we are being targeted! , its common that keeps us alive :) sense

We were in that region the same time, we almost went to Fairy Meadows.
It's a real shame that a minority tarnishes the friendelest and the hospitality of the True Pakistan people, we loved our time there and would go back again in a heart beat.

Who to trust?
 

Obviously nobody and why in the world would anyone go to Pakistan and Afganistan today? There are enough oter places to visit in the world not to challenge fate. If you absolutely refuse to stay away, then expect to be shot.

Because Pakistan is incomparably gorgeous. Despite these unfortunate happenings, still it is much safer than many popular tourist destinations. I would avoid taking names here.

You wanted to know who would visit Pakistan? Me for instance, came back home and now living with 180 million fantastic people enjoying every moment here.

FOX News appears to have made strange impression on a few simple and gullible people.

Omar

Well said Omie. Some of the comments here are a disgrace to the forum. We're supposed to be travellers, citizens of the world, who try and engage with different peoples and cultures, esp those giving through tough times and needing friends from the outside world. Of course we should do everything we can to stay safe and avoid certain regions if they are manifestly dangerous - though there are those of us who choose to go to danger zones BECAUSE they are danger zones. But to talk as if we should abandon certain countries, turn our backs on them, because FOX news says so...that's totally against the virtues that attracted me to this site and community

why pakistan..
whereelse can you meet these marvellous friends.
Photos tell all.

Well, if you want to go overland between Europe and India, then Pakistan is hard to skip. This is why I went there in 2007, and I did not stay long, because I was a little bit nervous (there was a martial law put in place just a couple of weeks before I crossed the border from Iran). But I never had one single problem there. Everyone I met, was extremely friendly. In fact I later thought, was there any real reason to be nervous at all. Sure, there are some unsafe areas, but the police take good care of tourists, and you don´t end up in those areas, unless you do something stupid yourself. (And I think I was about 1000 times more likely to be killed in local traffic, than by some jihadists - in fact traffic was often really terrible!)

One thing I was really amazed of, is how different both Iran and Pakistan felt to me, compared to the view, that I´d built of these countries in my imagination (and it was mostly from what the Western media provides). I´m not saying governments, politics or extremist groups aren´t real, but they are definitely not the whole story.

Great post pecha. Pakistan and Pakistanis are wonderful. Every traveller should try and go there at some point, taking all necessary care, when required, of course

I'm sure that there are very beautiful parts of Pakistan, but as I've said, there are many beautiful places around the world. And I have no doubt that it has many wonderful people, but the same is also true of many countries.

I have little doubt that Pakistan is safer than media reports would lead one to believe, but it is a bit much to suggest that such reports are only from Fox News, or that anyone who doesn't dash down to Pakistan for their next vacation is simple and gullible. The incident that sparked this thread is an example--foreign tourists in a previously totally safe area suddenly subjected to an act of deliberate and random violence.