out of control
 

over the last few years i keep coming accross bikers on adventure bikes standing on there pegs.
as soon as they leave the tarmac they seem to be brain washed into thinking they will have more control standing.i have seen some serious states,wobbly and very uncomfortable looking shapes totally out of control.
i would love to know how this myth all started as its dangerous for novice riders nevermind the huge costs when they drop there pride and joy.
hopefully some readers will question the next time they decide to stand up and save themselves from injury and a skinny wallet.

I guess it depends on the who, when and where. It's pretty hard to conclusively say that standing on pegs is better or worse as I have had situations where it would have been impossible, read deasterous to stay seated and standing was the only option, if I was seated, it would've caused an accident, but the inverse is also true. More than happy to share my examples if it would sway the argument... :innocent:

I guess people that stand-up on the pegs in normal conditions either are trying to stretch their legs or think that they are in some kind of Dakar Rally. :thumbdown:

Standing-up on the pegs does have significant advantages in terms of reducing impact to the spine on rough terrain, as your knees are absorbing what the suspension can not. That said, to become good at it you have to practise it... like anything. :cool4:

Statistically speaking, I don't think there is any evidence or empirical data that standing on pegs as opposed to sitting down causes more accidents. :smartass: But I have been known to be wrong. :unsure:

But of course not all bikes are suited to standing...

Simon Pavey, you know, the bloke who rode the Paris Dakar a few times, he taught me to stand up (at great expense). You could also take a look at people who've done a bit of off roading like Dougie Lampkin. It isn't the awful seat or any embarrassing lack of fibre in their diet that makes them stand up you know :rofl:

It's not the be all and end all of off road riding but in terms of getting your weight in the right place and getting some stability off road I think we can safely say it works (and is probably the biggest step in that direction short of getting a sidecar). It's the second thing they teach you on the off road courses, (picking the bike up is first), it lowers the acting centre of gravity as the load acts on the pegs not the seat and stays there.

Imagine balancing a bowling ball on your head as you walk, that's your bum on the seat. Now take the ball in both hands and raise it above your head. It's more stable because despite going higher the load is via your lower, wider shoulders. Your legs of course are better at this sort of thing that your arms.

Andy

I find it much easier to stand when off road as it allows the bike to "squirm" between my legs rather than me "squirm" with the bike - much easier just topoint the front wheel where you want to go and let the back end dance it's own tune without my backside dancing with it. :scooter:

That said - if it is a particularly long off road ride I tend to take occcassional breathers and sit down for a while on the smoother stretches, but it is very much a personal thing but it also depends on just how bad the road is.

Just like anything, standing up without knowing what you are doing can be dangerous, especially on a bike not suited for it. But done properly on a bike suited for it that has been setup correctly ... I personally am convinced it makes off-pavement riding easier and safer. I spend a lot of time in my travels sitting down on dirt roads simply because I'm lazy. And because standing really doesn't give very much benefit on the average dirt road unless you're shielding your spine from bumps. But when I do stand up I can typically control the bike easier, react quicker, see better, and take less abuse from bumps. When I do go down, I'm also usually in a safer position if I'm standing than if I'm sitting. That said, I've been in situations where standing is impossible and others where it would have been a bad idea. And at least one time in Peru I could easily have been dead if I had been sitting down.

I should note that I've also had good teachers and spend lots of time practicing, even now when I'm traveling. I also have a bike designed for off-road use and setup to be good at it.

All responders have it right. My DL is hard to control when standing because it's not set up correctly (and too heavy anyway for off-road, but that's another story). My KLR is often easier and/or more safe, depending--but it does help to apply certain riding skills, without which there's no advantage. A true off-road bike is much more safe standing, even in my own inept hands--but it still has to be set up for your size, reach, etc.

I don't stand up unless it seems likely to help (or to stretch, see over traffic, or play around). On good gravel or dirt, seldom. Among densely-clustered potholes or other riding impediments, I'll stand even on the DL. Variety is the spice of life (or something).

Mark

Something I've noticed amongst both 'overlanders' and also 'trailriders' back here in the UK. They stand up as soon as they get onto a gravel road, but the moment the going gets tricky their arse is back on the seat like a flash, and often their feet are stuck out trailing above the ground.

The latter is particularly dangerous if you value your ankles. Plus if you always ride tough terrain like this, you'll kill your dab reflex for when you come across a bit of hidden loose ground.


I think it's written in Chris Scott's handbook something like: 'No need to standup on loose ground, taking the weight off your arse and putting it onto your feet is enough'. And this is very true and appropriate advice for overland travel.

The only time as a novice I've felt it 100% natural to stand up is when going down hill slowly on loose/rocky ground.

But undoubtedly mastering standing up all the time is going to be a massive benefit off the tarmac. I don't think anyone would argue against this. But I think the original poster's point was that the majority of riders standing up are doing it because they think they should do, and not because it helps them. If you're not used to it, standing up will reduce your balance, and definitely reduce your control of the bike.

out of control
 

all valid points.
although when i say standing thats what i mean.legs straight and there head and shoulders directly above the bars very unstable and rigid with no body movement.its a very common sight these days for some unknown reason.
simon pavey on the other hand is a delight to watch..knees bent,exchanging weight from one peg to the other and lots of calculated body movement.he is a professional after all.
the situations i refer to are guys standing when there is no benefit or gains to be had apart from fatigue and no control.plus side we get the odd laugh out of it without offending anybody of course.
its made me curious as we/i have only noticed this in the last few years out of nearly thirty years (novice)off roading.charlie and ewan could be the culprits.maybe its only a uk thing we may never know.
thanks for the replys .

out of control
 

yes nath i totally agree with you and mr scott.when riding 70% or more my ass is hovering a few inches above the seat while transfering weight to the pegs as thats were the control and comfort is at.
your last paragraph hit the nail on the head.
thanks for the reply bud.

out of control
 

if riding a proper enduro bike i would agree with the above but certainly not on a 1200 gs,xl 1000 or v-storm.those backends do not dance they just sit it out(speaking for myself of course)
check out the new posts as they explain where i am coming from.

Afraid I totally disagree, when I had a large 'adventure bike' I stood up regularly for a variety of reasons and it never compromised my safety, in fact it felt easier to control, I wasn't getting kicked in the arse every time I hit something big and had better visibility.

I was what you would call a 'novice' - I had done about 500 miles on a motorbike before I set off on my first big trip, I'd never heard of Simon Pavey and no-one taught me to stand up off-road, it just felt easier, safer and instinctive.

I also spent a fair amount of time standing up on tarmac but that was more due to a very sore arse than improving handling.

On my last trip I never stood up because the bikewas too short and it pitched the weight too far forward (it was a 125 step-through though).

I'd say whether or not to stand up should depend on what you're riding, the surface and how you feel about it - not whether someone has told you to stand up or to sit down, you'd be just as likely to have a problem from sitting down when you shouldn't be (especially if you need to jump clear).

There is one exception though - whatever you do try and keep your feet on the pegs unless you actually need to put them down - it's much much harder to break your ankle that way!

Generally I ride offroad sitting down maybe 80-90% of the time. The one overwhelming good reason for standing up is to improve your forward vision. Compression of the spine comes to mind on bumpy sections, so I tend to stand there as well (or at least brace my legs and lift the bum slightly). And if I'm getting hot through a combination of hot weather, slow speed and hard work then I'll stand to get some air flow. Stretching your legs is another reason to stand.

Rough (as opposed to bumpy) sections are best taken standing up allowing the bike to squirm underneath you but it's a matter of confidence. If you feel happier sitting down, do so.

Offroad schools teach using weight transfer through the pegs (whilst standing) as a means of increasing turn rates. This works well on a relatively top-heavy Tenere but has little effect on something like the R1200GS where the weight is low down. Standing on the pegs doesn't actually lower the centre of gravity, if anything it raises it, which is why the bike reacts faster, see discussion here.

Many people I've watched don't stand correctly. They are in what skiers call the 'English toilet seat position' with a bent back and hesitant attitude, whereas the correct way is to be upright with your weight well forward towards or over the front wheel. However many tank bags prevent riders from adopting this well-forward position.

.

Having recently completed a trip (with a good deal of gravel/dirt involved) on the first bike I've ever had that lent itself to standing up, I find the whole topic confusing.

My long ago high school physics tells me that, as Tim Cullis points out, standing does not lower the centre of gravity but raises it. Or maybe that's centre of mass. Are those different concepts?

Standing did seem to instantly offer more control. The same high school physics tells me (I think) that this phenomenon is not about centre of gravity but about levers. When you stand you become a longer lever and, therefore, you can lean the bike more easily. Turning is really about leaning so easier leaning means easier turning which means more control.

Imagine trying to rock (lean) a deep keeled sailboat by pushing on the side of the cabin. Tough. Now imagine trying to rock it by pushing on the top of the mast. Easier. The mast is a longer lever than the cabin. A standing rider is a longer lever than a sitting rider. Is this the answer?

Perhaps there's an actual physicist or mechanical engineer out there who can definitively explain all of this?

Norm

standing
 

I'm pretty sure that the OP is not saying that standing is wrong, just that some are doing it wrong.

On my last jaunt in Europe I was lucky enough to spend a day at the BMW Off Road course at Hechlingen in Germany. Here we (all on the course) were taught the Hows, Whys, Wheres and Whens to stand up.

Of the 8 hours I spent on the bike (R1200GS) at this facility, about 80% was spent standing. Now this of course is a different situation to normal everyday riding. This was a specific course designed to (try to) give you some more skills. Skills that you would be able to adapt and use in the right situation later.

During the course we were instructed to do the same execise both sitting and standing in the correct position. Depending on the exercise, sometimes standing was better, sometimes sitting was better. This was done to show that given the situation, each style has its merits.

I'm sure that we have all stood up occassionally, whether to stretch the legs, to see over traffic, or for balance and stability. Given the right situation, on a correctly set up machine, employing the correct technique, standing will help. If you dont have all the "rights" together then it cold be dangerous.

Best thing is to get instruction on the Whys and Hows. Everyone can learn something new, even the most experienced riders.

Marty

I sit down as much as possible but notice that most modern trail/enduro bikes are set up a lot firmer meaning on some rough trails it is much more comfortable to stand up. I've increased the height of the bars by 80mm to avoid the lower back problems I've had before but it's still important to ride with your knees bent and therefore acting as suspension. Standing up for long distances with your knees bent is tiring. If you ride with your knees locked out you are achieving nothing - on rough trails the bike will yaw under you as the front end hits the bump and then the rear end and any shock will be transmitted through the footrests up through your body and you will need a very tight grip on the bars just to stay on the bike.

The main purpose of standing up is to allow the rider to transfer weight rapidly from front to back and side to side so any tricky section - ruts etc. you should stand up and get your weight forward for better steering move your weight back if you need to lift the front wheel.

I would say that on a modern softly sprung 'adventure' bike on gravel roads standing up is completely unnecessary.

I think it probably started because it's, erm, not actually a myth. :rofl:

Worth noting that someone stood up can look completely out of shape (body not in line with bike) but it's that ability to move which is giving them the control. Someone sat down will look perfectly natural, right up to the point they are lying on the floor. :oops2:

Equally, riding all day down a well-graded gravel road, I'd not stand up all the time (for a start, it gets a bit windy at 60+ mph). I'd do whatever felt comfortable.

If you want to change people's minds and lead a new revolution of sitting-down riding regardless of terrain/circumstances you might want to provide a bit more justification.

I would like to add here one other point.
When temperatures get over 30C, it is good way to cool down a bit.

-Hemuli

I am not a very experienced "off-roader" but ocasionaly I ride some dirtroads on my bikes. I am lazy so I try to sit as much as possible but I have two reasons for standing, one is to improve my view on the road ahead and the other is to let my knees absorb the bumps instead of my back.

The bike has to be set up right for it. On my F650GS, I had the bars five centimer raised (Touratech risers worked fine for me) so I could stand right but I guess that is different for longer or shorter riders.
On my R1100GS I am still experimenting with the sitting/standing position.

Interesting. I stand up in technical stuff but sit down when its fairly straightforward. This is not based on training or motorcycle specific knowledge, but simply because that's what I'd always done on a mountain bike.

It just somehow feels more natural to stand up when on technical trails, for three reasons - 1) because I feel more in control and balanced; 2) because it allows the bike to bounce around without taking me with it and 3) it makes it easier to jump off if it all goes pear shaped!

Matt :)

By "Out of control", can I assume either you feel out of control standing on the pegs of your bike or you think others look it?

What's the difference between in and out of control? If it's in=not falling off and out=fell off, then I have to say that this isn't the case. Several times, I've felt perfectly in control the nanosecond before I was sliding down the (paved or unpaved) road. In these situations, it had nothing to do with standing or sitting, but more to do with not taking the correct line, not concentrating or hitting some diesel.

FWIW, I subscribe to the mantra "sit when you can, stand when you have to". I laugh when I see (usually riding a certain brand and wearing expensive riding suits of another certain brand) standing with legs and arms straight on a bike. I suppose they think they look the part, so that's fine too though.

As far as standing on pegs technique goes, below is a pic I took of Marc Coma on his way to winning the 2006 Dakar race. I think it can be assumed that his technique is text-book stuff.


http://www.thebrightstuff.com/Moroc2...ain_Winner.jpg

It is not just bikes, I stand up when driving my tractor over rough ground and getting bounced around.

Mountain biking, too. A lot of what's involved is the opportunity to rapidly shift weight forward and back, side to side as needed. Hard to do when you're comfortably seated.

I went on a rideout with the XT500/Thumper Club boys earlier this year at the annual international meet. One guy had a 660 Tenere with all the Touratech kit (3 box luggage system, tank panniers, proper overland spec) although from talking to him all he ever did was go campsite-style camping in the UK.

I followed him on the rideout and he stood most of the way. This was on decent tarmac roads. It was very funny to watch. I think a lot of it is just the Dakar image - Stephane Peterhansel does it, so it shows you are 'in the know'.

A Physicist Weighs In
 

O.K. I've consulted my esteemed brother in law who has a Ph.D in theoretical physics and here's the word.

Standing up on a motorcycle absolutely raises the centre of gravity (which for the purposes of this discussion is the same as the centre of mass). This is a good thing with respect to control on unstable surfaces.

To get an intuitive understanding of this get yourself a hammer and a broom which have roughly the same weights. Try balancing the hammer by the end of the handle on your fingertip. Now try balancing the broom the same way. The broom is easier to balance. Because the broom is longer, when balanced, it is more resistant to displacement. Or, put another way, if its base is displaced it tends to fall over more slowly than the hammer.

When standing up on a motorcycle the rider becomes "longer". Displacement lower down (caused by bumps and other imperfections in the road surface) causes the bike to fall over more slowly than if the rider were "shorter" and sitting down. Slower falling over means that the effect of the displacement is easier to correct, i.e. there is more control.

There it is...I think.

Norm

Makes sense to me.

Another thing would be that standing up creates a flexible joint between the two masses of rider and bike. The mass of the rider can stay relatively still, while the mass of the bike can follow the contours of the ground more easily. Same principle as sprung and unsprung weight, I suppose, but including sideways movement as well as vertical.

Wasn't it "sit when you can, stand when you must" and not the other way around? (unless when it's for a plastic purpose :scooter:)

Esteban

This is starting to sound like my philosophy of life:

If you can walk, don't run
If you can stand still, don't walk
If you can sit down, don't stand
If you can lie down, don't sit
And
If you can have a nap while you are down there, so much the better.

The key word here, in my opinion, is 'unstable'.

You don't need to stand up on gravel roads unless you are racing where the surface should be considered unstable for the speed at which you are riding.

Why not "sit when you feel like it, stand when you feel like it"?

Maybe not just racing? My back wheel spun up on the Leeds ring road just now. Probably a combination of a low quality repair to the fully sealed road surface and oil or diesel leaked from a poorly maintained vehicle. Was I going to fast? Certainly or it wouldn't have spun up. Could I do slower? Not unless I want to replace the three pointed star on the front of some 40 tonner.

There are I think times when you can trade the energy of getting on the pegs and making some progress against advantages such as not having logging trucks passing you. There are other times when 8 hours at 25 mph sitting down is going to work out better than 4 riding like a nutter followed by a long rest to get over it.

I think the trick is knowing when to stand and for somewhere like Australia it could be critical to save the time on the pegs for sand and not waste it on gravel. Personally I probably do stand when I don't need to, but for the short (relative) distances (2 hours tops) it probably only makes a slightly positive contribution.

Andy