Vehicle - Train - Plane - Shanks’s Pony?
 

Genuinely interested in peoples thoughts on this.

2020 has been something of a Lemony Snicket novel with a series of unfortunate events leading to a major life change. A total knee replacement resulted in nerve damage that may take years to sort out. This means I cant ride my MC very far without pain and will most probably retiring early this year at 55.

But, the silver lining is, that once Covid is dead and we can travel again, I should be able to travel full time for a long time. So planning on taking my daughters aged 10 and 14 out of school, grabbing the wife and heading off. We had been planning something similar pre covid for about three years time but that involved a campervan / 4WD camper or similar. However, the knee is not conducive to cramped vans at present so that is off the list. I reluctantly just sold our camper that I had spent 18 months preparing :thumbdown:

So my thoughts are, in no particular order, is to start off in Asia and spend a couple of months in each country, using monthly airbnb’s so the girls can do some school work and use trains / ferries etc for transport.

Maybe start off flying into Bali for a couple of days, then over to Java and staying in Surabaya and Jakarta. Then off to Malaysia - Thailand - Vietnam and anywhere else that takes the fancy. I cant see any real point in having a vehicle during this leg so am happy without one. I have done a heap of research and spreadsheets on this leg and using Airbnb’s we are averaging spending less than $1000AUD on accommodation in most of these countries per month, which is well within the accom budget.

The next leg gets a bit more complicated. We could travel by train through China into Inner Eurasia transiting across to the Stan’s and then eventually Europe. Where I start to get a bit stuck, having never visited these regions, is whether a vehicle makes more sense in Europe and the Stan’s as we still want to use AirBnb’s on our monthly/bimonthly routine.

I may be able to purchase a vehicle in Germany as we have friends there. However, an alternative would be to head to Japan after SE Asia for 3 to 6 months and buy a vehicle while I am there. Buying a new car in Japan does not require a safety registration check for three years so there is no requirement to have it in country till then (this could also be shipped back to Aust after the trip as a personal import - I think)

This would then open up Sth Korea for a few months, then ferry to Vladivostok if its running again, and transit across Russia by vehicle into Europe. The ten day transit visa worries me a little bit though. Perhaps just being a pussy.

Having a vehicle in Europe would probably save $$ and be more convenient than trains. Does the car reduce the experience of the trip for the driver? Do you see more from a train? Is Russia less hassle, and more enjoyable, on a train than a car. Not talking ‘road a bones’ here but the towns and cities along the main transit route :) Thoughts?

The other option is to just decide once the SE Asia leg is over and use Skyscanner to find the cheapest fair to wherever and just go with it. Pre Covid I played around with this a bit and was amazed at just how cheap you can get flights from place to place.

I am not interested in Africa though the America’s would be interesting down the line. By that time I may be able to ride again - perhaps the Honda ADV-X 750 might work.

So no actual specific questions, other than the Car in Europe one, but interested in views from anyone who has an interest/experience in this sort of trip. I have looked at other forums however anything with family travel seems to focus on a week in a city and not the day to day stuff.

bier

Homer

flights
 

Re flights;

1. Skyscanner may and also may not be the cheapest option for flights.
Many of these flight search engines are sponsored. And sometimes Skyscanner may be cheaper,

2. Try Google flights, as yet they are not sponsored by any airline.
Clear your cookie cache memory as they latch onto the fact that you are searching for flights.

3. If you really want a good deal use matrix ita software as its a trade site and is not user-friendly, but it will give you the absolute cheapest deals. I have pasted the link below.

3. Currency fluctuations are a method whereby airlines also make money from passengers, for example, say you specify you want to pay in Australian Dollars, it will give you a price say $x, if you want to pay in Euro it will give you another price, you can work out what is cheaper by using Oanda. I have used this here in Europe, for example it was cheaper by around 10 Euro to book a flight using Ryanairs Bulgarian website rather than their UK website. Its a process called Dynamic Currency Conversion and they all make money at your and my expense.

4. I, like you use spreadsheets to work out spending, try it yourself and do a comparison. The differences may not be spectacular, but the money is better off in your pocket rather than an airlines.

5. Pre Covid I travelled extensively from UK to AUS, HK, China, India and I keep a spreadsheet of every single penny I spend ( I am Scottish) and Google Flights has consistently been the best.

https://matrix.itasoftware.com
Hope this helps, be kind and be safe, kind regards.

The bit that jumps out for me is not so much the logistics of your travel plans as the effect it'll have on your daughters - particularly the older one. 14 is a tricky age, both from a personal development perspective and an educational one.

My guess would be that she'll be happy to embrace what she'll see as an extended holiday in the short run (even with schoolwork thrown in) but as time passes what she's 'lost' will become more of an issue - friends for example, or her place in the 'social structure' that's her current life. You'll also have to take on board that she'll become increasingly unhappy with her place in the 'mum and dad who make the decisions and two children who tag along' hierarchy. At that age travel is only one of the raft of things that are important in her life. You'll have the same issues with the 10yr old but not to quite the same level.

Both of them would / will gain a lot from the experience but, particularly with the older one, there will be consequences. When she was 14 my daughter (in her 20's now) would not have agreed to go along with what you're talking about. The life plan she'd worked out for herself would have been substantially disrupted by such a change.

Well, I did an all-public-transport circuit around Asia a few years ago, so I might have some useful input.

Not sure how cramped your particular camper was, but be aware than public transport in Asia is often sized for the average Asian. I.e. if riding in a van is trouble for your knee, then sitting on a Chinese-made bus or in a regional airline seat may also be problematic. Budget for first-class train seats and extra-legroom flights. E.g. in Vietnam, I paid extra for a tour from Hanoi to Ha Long Bay on a luxury van - but it was definitely a better experience than being crammed into a 23-seat Toyota Coaster.

China's domestic train network, the high-speed trains in particular, is quite good quality. For me the low point of the trip was the bus from Luang Prabang in Laos into China, but having arrived in Kunming, the rest of the transport was fine - even the local bus between Dali and Lijiang (I think the high speed train line has been extended all the way there since). Personally I would aim to take the Beijing-Ulaanbaator train as an adventure experience. Not sure if there are good overland connections into Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan yet.

In Europe, depending on how much you want to spend there, you can just get Eurail passes that give you almost-unlimited train travel across the continent for a fixed number of days. A rail-centric trip across Europe is certainly an excellent experience. Remember that you can easily rent a car in any European town for a specific daytrip. E.g. last year I was visiting my sister in Belgium for a couple of days, and renting a car from the airport to go visit some places that were not convenient by train cost me about ten euros per day. (Okay, it was a tiny Opel Corsa, but there were only two of us.) So it's definitely a legitimate strategy to not buy your own vehicle in Europe.

You'll definitely want more time in Russia than that, if you're going east-to-west.

Backofbeyond thanks.

You raise some interesting and valid points. The 14yo will have just turned 15 if we go in Jan 22 which is when I figure Covid is maybe under control. We could put it off another year till she is 16 when she is going to start her Bachelor of Arts online through Macquarie University. We have had an ongoing conversation about this for about two years, as it originally looked like i would be working in Japan from 2022 for three years. Strangely she was not that keen on that, but is keen on the current plan. Go figure. But she is a teenager and the hormones are a ticking time bomb.

We do have the option of flying her home to live with one of her much older brothers if needs be. Or with friends in Germany for a while.

Definitely something to keep in mind and considered. It is a balancing act.

AnTyx thanks as well.

Your insight into China is confirmation of what I have been reading about their rail network - extensive and efficient.

The main issue I have with my knee is moving around the camper, particularly not being able to kneel on the knee. I am actually dreading the flight out of oz, at least on the trains I can get up and walk around.

10 euros a day is damn cheap for a hire car. I had read you can get good deals for long term rentals as well.

Will take you advice - first class all the way. ;)

Cheers

Homer

My immediate concern was more or less articulated above: it's well enough to plan a 3 year trip for yourself (with or without another consenting adult), but difficult to do so for kids. 10, 14, 16, or any other age: they're growing and changing so quickly that it's tough to predict how they'll be feeling about footloose world travel in a year or two. Plus much of what's developmentally quite appropriate--reorienting themselves to peer groups at the expense of family, for example--may not lend itself to what you're imagining.

Depending, of course, on lots of factors. I'm not talking about your kids specifically, or even your plans--merely stating generalities.

About your knee, again without knowledge of your specific situation... I've had several spine surgeries and a knee replacement recently (plus some other relevant issues, like surgeries on both wrists), and can report that what seemed crippling at first tends to require adjustments, not total changes within a year or two. For example, I'll never again kneel on my artificial knee, but I do ski (and fall), mountain bike (and fall), plus cautiously change out car wheels and do all sorts of other kneeling stuff. High quality, sports-based knee pads make all the difference.

I also drive long distances in my car, ride long distances on a variety of motorcycles, and even hike on mountain trails from time to time, paying in excessive stiffness and a lot of whining. You might no longer wish to travel with your own vehicle, but I'd suggest not giving it up just because you can't kneel easily and need to move around periodically. In fact, one of the benefits of having your own vehicle is that you can almost always stop (gasp!), park, and wander freely.

It's true that I've largely given up on long bus journeys and budget lodgings, and I don't sleep on the ground very often. However, these things were well under way long before my surgeries--when I was about your age, in fact. It'll be interesting to see how things line up for you.

Hope that's helpful, and as always if it's not please feel free to disregard any or all.

Mark

HI Mark and thanks for your input.

Thanks for the positive comments re the knee. I am two years post TKR and the actual prosthetic and knee strength is really good.

Just after the surgery I got a slight infection in the incision and was unable to get past 90deg so ended up having a manipulation under anaethesia. I was able to build up the strength in the knee and am really happy with it. Pain remained and it would swell after use. Two different needle aspirations showed blood in the joint. Three months ago they did a minor arthroscopy with another surgeon to take biopsies and while in there they derided some skin from the joint that may have been catching.

The end result was no infection which was awesome, however a lot of scar tissue on both sides of the inside of the knee. Both surgeons are of the opinion that the issue is neurogenic and that the parasympathetic nervous system is hyper aroused and the nerves think the knee is still injured so responds to use with pain and swelling.

My pain is, medically speaking, stupid. If I sit in a chair it gets painful posterially, but if I stand or walk around it gets painful on the outside. 30 min in the car is about it, though I can push on with medication.

Having said that, hearing positive stories is a great tonic. I have 120deg of flex which is, I think, about the maximum. What bike are you riding. My knee is just under max flex on my GSA.

Re the social aspect with the girls, your points are valid, particularly with the older daughter. Our younger daughter has ADD (not hyper) and mild dyslexia which makes maintaining friends very difficult. She is ‘quirky’ so to speak, though academically fine. During the Covid lockdown her education was improved greatly as she received one on one education from her mum, and was the happiest she had ever been.

Advice appreciated.

Thinking it may be worth speaking to child psychologist / counselor for their thoughts on the kids education / social impacts.

We would be renting our house out so I imagine if we put it on a 1yr lease that would give a definite date to reassess. So if they are not happy we can at least say just ‘x’ more months and we head home. Then just run it month to month maybe.

That may well kill the buying a car issue. Sticking with trains may also give a sense of direction; SE Asia, into China, Inner Eurasia, Europe that they can follow on a map. I come from Gypsie blood (yeah the not so helpful ones - most of my aunts, uncles and grandmother were crooks LOL), so wandering and moving is in my make up. :(

I can't say anything about travelling with family, but I see you have raised a separate topic about that anyway.

Although I live in SE Asia (moved to Borneo last year), I've not been able to see any of it due to strict lockdowns and border closures. But I believe that a car would not be necessary, and may be a hindrance if you want to do a lot of island hopping (though I am hoping to make a Borneo - Sulawesi - Bali - Java - Borneo trip in the Landcruiser I am currently restoring, if the borders open before I finish my time here...).

Continental Eurasia is a different story though. I've made many road journeys around and across just about every region of Russia, and I could not imagine doing it any other way. Those tourists I very rarely meet who use the train, stopping in various cities (and as much as I love Russia, many of the cities are of passing interest at best) and watching the wilderness roll past a window, seem to have a pretty shallow experience. It amazes me that so few people visit Russia as tourists, until I imagine being stuck without transport. Most of the good stuff - the magnificent drive up the Chuya highway through the Altai mountains, the gorgeous hinterland of Tuva, camping on remote stretches of the Baikal coast, driving on the frozen Lena River, camping on an empty beach on the Sea of Japan or simply pulling off just about any road and camping in the woods, is off the cards without your own transport. And the same is even more true for Mongolia, which is absolutely worth visiting if you're in that part of the world.

Central Asia is much the same story - no wonder people think Kazakhstan is boring when they don't have wheels to point at the Altai mountains, Dzungarsky Alatau, Mangystau etc etc. I would say only Uzbekistan might lend itself to travel by public transport, as the attractions are more urban than natural.

The only places I would say public transport works almost as well as personal transport for a traveller are densely populated places like India and I imagine SE Asia, as per your plan. Europe is probably OK without transport as in many countries you can't really wild camp and roam freely anyway... so the attractions are reduced to national parks and cities which you can reach by public transport. That's a generalisation of course.

I've done a good bit of travelling with public transport, and subsequently a lot with my own cars - I would never go back. The only other thing I would consider is a bicycle for places like China where you can't travel freely by car, or a yacht (which is looking ever more appealing with most likely many years of land border closures).

EO