Carnet de passage UK: RAC withdraws bank guarantee
 

Quick update on the carnet de passage in the UK:

This cropped up on another part of the Hubb but it is worth mentioning here - the RAC has just withdrawn the bank guarantee option. Reason given was that banks were wanting to specify their own terms rather than accept the RAC legal wording.

This makes the whole idea even more frustrating because the only 2 options now are the insurance indemnity or the refundable deposit (only to a max. of £10,000). So they are virtually forcing people to go down the expensive insurance route. The whole thing stinks in my view and there is little incentive for the normally law-abiding traveller to enter into such a costly and one-sided proposition. I had quite a heated "discussion" with the RAC this morning on this. I spoke to my bank and I can get quite a good deal on a bank guarantee which turns out to be much cheaper than the insurance route. I will persevere with the RAC and see what can be done.:funmeterno:

I'd be interested to know how you get on.

I find the excuse about the banks wanting to change the wording a bit odd. The bank is counter-indemnified by you in exactly the same terms as the guarantee given to the RAC so as long as it feels it has sufficient financial cover I doubt it would be too concerned.

Can you get confirmation from your bank that they will accept the RAC's standard guarantee wording? If so, it's difficult to see what the RAC's objection could be.

If they insist on this line then they should at least increase the limit on the deposit they will accept. I've never understood the reason for this ceiling.

In practical terms this could scupper people who want to cross Egypt and therefore need cover for 800% of their vehicle value. If I had had to go down the insurance route for my 3 year trip rather than the bank guarantee it would have cost me a fortune.

I agree with your comments Itchy and yes, the insurance route could be very expensive. Am still persevering with the RAC although they seem to have been rather busy during the last two days! Paul Gowen is the man to talk to and have left messages for him. Will post a further update once I finally speak to him.

I understood Paul had left the department.

Margaret

Certainly in 2010 the legal department of my bank were not happy with the RAC wording about the guarentee of money to be paid by the bank should the money need to be paid.
The bit concerned was the Customs and Excise valuation. In the very small print is says something like " Customs and Excise" can value the vehicle themselves to what the think the vehicle is worth. To the bank that seemed to say that a vehicle valued at £3,000 meant nothing as C+E could ask for more money from the bank than had been deposited.

It was sorted then and we got our carnet after we signed an indemnification for the bank.

I can see this being the end of our trips to Africa as no way can we afford the insurance route.


MIKE

Was there not some discussion on the HUBB a few years ago about UK riders/drivers getting carnets through ADAC, I'll look for it later but as of now here in sunny Colombia it's time for a leisurely lunch at a beach bar. Ride safe.

Since I need to know this for later in the year I did some googling check this ADAC Reise & Freizeit - Carnet de Passages - Englisch

Paul Gowen does not work in the carnet department any more.

It is common for a customs guarantee not to be limited in amount.

The RACs standard guarantee wording already includes a counter indemnity (ie it says whatever the bank has to stump up to the RAC - and yes this can be more than the theoretical limit - you then need to stump up to the bank) which is why it shouldn't really give a bank a problem provided they have sufficient cover from you. This is the sort of guarantee they give day in day out in a commercial context.

A few years ago ADAC stopped issuing carnets for non-German registered vehicles (it was always cheaper than the RAC and others). Maybe that has now reverted back. It would certainly be useful if that were the case.

I exchanged e mails with ADAC last week and they said they could not issue a Carnet to a UK registered vehicle. The insurance option is a real rip off as in many cases it will be the only option. We do not need a Carnet for a while but it would be good to get them to accept the bank guarantee option again.

So if Paul is out, who to contact?

Does anyone have any info ideas on getting a Carnet for a UK registered bike, which is in my name, but I am an American, who is purchasing the bike in Thailand.

Thanks

The main problem for me is the lack of official confirmation whether each country will accept a temporary import permit for 4x4s.
The RAC have a £10,000 cap on the bond they will accept, and as most 4x4s, and the newer larger bikes, may be of that value to begin with, this writes off the ability to deposit the necessary 800% required for Egypt, even if funds were available.

If a border will easily issue a TIP for 4x4, perhaps the deciding factor may be the difference in cost between TIP fee and cost of carnet getting stamped plus cost of insurance. If you are routing through Egypt the cost will be fairly high for the insurance, however as there does not seem to be a check for actual vehicle value this may allow a slight reduction in cost? As long as the price is realistic they should accept a very modest valuation...

The (off topic) discussion of banks and bankers has been moved to http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-bankers-68480

There have been some various threads suggesting that Africa is now possible with Temp Imports, including Egypt.

See here and here.

That just leaves the Middle East, Pakistan, India, Nepal, Japan, New Zealand and that other big over regulated place next to New Zealand.

Carnet, RAC / ADAC
 

We are currently on our second Carnet, which has been extended once secured with with a Bank Guarantee, which we now have to renew,

Before Christmas the RAC confirmed that we could renew under the current BG, however have now changed their minds after ignoring our attempts to contact them for two months.

We are trying to hold them to information they previously confirmed but this does raise an issue for others who are currently travelling under one and may need to renew soon.

The RAC have not provided any reasons for not allowing us to renew under the BG, all they have said is that they do not accept them anymore. They also have not been able to confirm whether they would be able to release the current BG even if the indemnity was paid for, which may cause further issues.

Does anyone know officially when and why they stopped accepting Carnets?

The alternative is to use the ADAC, we have requested permission in writing from the RAC if they refuse to renew under the BG. Using the ADAC, the total security is significantly less whether provided as a BG or cash deposit.

It is interesting that the ADAC also has a connection to RL Davison, but the costs in the UK are so much higher.

If the ADAC cannot be used I can see that many may not be able to afford overland trips where a Carnet is required, especially more expensive 4x4's than ours.

Will keep you updated as to our progress, if you do have a Carnet issued under BG and are looking to renew you should contact the RAC ASAP.

If anyone else has been through the same with the RAC recently, it would be great to know how you got on,

Many thanks

Martin

Update on insurance indemnity for CDP
 

Thanks everyone for your input on this.

In terms of the insurance indemnity, RL Davison no longer deal with the RAC on this. Miller Insurance are the new brokers for the RAC. Contact is Scott Sinfield. See Home - Miller Insurance Services LLP.

I haven't come across any official reasons for the bank guarantee withdrawal, except to say that I've heard that recently 70% of bank guarantees have not paid out! This is a matter of some embarrassment to the RAC so they are probably trying to keep it quiet.

interesting. 70% of bank guarantees not paying out...

how many overland vehicles do not make it 'home' or as a final import into final country?

I don't think overlanders are the main problem. Speaking to the RAC's carnet guy a few years ago, he mentioned that the UK loses a large number of ordinary cars to the east (India for one) as people take advantage of the carnet system to get the car into the country, whereupon it "disappears". This seems to be a British problem in the main, and goes some way to account for the high price of carnets for us in comparison to other Europeans.
Simon.

No about turn re RAC and the bank guarantee
 

@ Fern - would be interesting to know that. I doubt however that anyone at RAC will tell us!

@ Mossproof - yes, your speculation sounds pretty close to the mark. Even ADAC chimed in to say that the UK is probably the most expensive country for a carnet.

The new carnet contact at RAC, Mark Clissold, is adamant that they won't do an about turn on the bank guarantee. They've clearly had their fingers burnt on this. Those who want to take a more expensive expedition vehicle into carnet countries will bear the brunt of this but I get the feeling the RAC is not too worried about upsetting the more privileged overlanders.

We recently spoke to to the RAC regarding the withdrawal as it directly affected us,

We have posted their official response here, they did at least offer 10% of all new carnets...

We also put together a comparison of carnet costs across several countries on each occasion the RAC came out higher, the main reason for this is that the issuers use different risk / duty tables to asses the total risk.

They (both the ADAC & RAC) have stated to us in writing that if people wish to use the ADAC they may but, you will first have to obtain a letter of non objection from the RAC before the ADAC engage you.

Carnet - bank guarantee through ADAC?
 

Thanks for this Mart - I've just spoken to Mark Clissold at RAC and he has confirmed this. Helpfully he will send a letter to ADAC today allowing me to obtain a carnet through them. Whether or not ADAC will accept the bank guarantee is another question, but according to their website they do, which is a good sign. Expect another update in due course!

Fantastic, i'm glad we were able to help!

Let us know how you get on!

Hi Charlemagne

I see you also use the ADAC for your carnet. So do we. However I have seen some response re Carnet free travel in Africa I would agree when we travelled Africa 2010-2011 I am convinced we could have done he same without a carnet.

However what is the story for India (IE temporary Import) . We require a 40000 Euro Bank guarantee. If we go with the carnet.

Does anyone have experience in this part of the world. The other issue I am having is that the whole Guarantee form Burgschafts erklarung is in German and the ADAC does not allow this form t be written in English.

Look forward to your comments

ADAC a winner for UK motorcyclists
 

Hi Fearless,

I've heard of temporary import permits being issued in some African countries but not India. Haven't found anything on the Hubb that confirms TIPS for vehicles into India either. India is a signatory to the carnet scheme and seem to be pretty insistent on it (see http://www.mumbaicustoms.gov.in/htmldocs/tourists.htm ). It would not be too costly to obtain a translation of the German contract and pursue the bank guarantee option. I believe this would be the most inexpensive option. You will have to arrange for your bank to give the guarantee to a German bank as ADAC will not accept bank guarantees from non-German banks. ADAC use Postbank so it would make sense to use them (via your bank).

Concerning my experience with ADAC, I can't recommend them enough. They've been clear, straightforward & quick. My carnet came through in a week and is a massive cost saving compared with obtaining a carnet via the RAC. GBP 100 compared with GBP 4,000.

Most UK motorcyclists wishing to obtain a carnet could obtain one through ADAC - the most they would have to pay is €3,000 which is fully refunded on return to the UK. If you don't want to pay the cash, get your bank to issue a guarantee to Postbank in Germany. And the best bit is that the ADAC carnet includes Egypt and India.

I have all the info from ADAC, including costs, so just click on the link in the later post below.

I presume the same will apply to 4x4 users

Margaret

ADAC carnet for UK overlanders
 

Yes Margaret, the above also applies to non-motorcycling UK overlanders (different costs apply of course).

Here is the ADAC info, including costs: Attachment 10174

Those non-motorcycling UK overlanders wishing to obtain a carnet for a reasonably expensive vehicle where the bank guarantee will be the most cost-effective option will have to arrange the guarantee with their UK bank in favour of a German Bank. I'm not aware how easy that will be I'm afraid as I haven't had to go down that route. But knowing how difficult it was to ask whether my UK bank would even consider issuing a guarantee I suspect it will be a bit of a challenge. My suggestion would be not to give up; the front line customer service staff are unlikely to be able to help with this, you will probably have to get through to someone at the head office of the bank via your branch manager.

Most bank managers dealing with personal customers won't have a clue about bank guarantees. However, they are given all the time in a commercial context and all major banks will have a commercial guarantees department. Get hold of a phone number for someone there and they will know what to do. It is effectively just a customs guarantee.

I am from Australia and want to ship my bike to the UK to start a RTW trip that will take me down the west coast of Africa and back up the east coast, and through pretty much all Asian countries. I have access to a British passport however my bike will be registered in Australia, is it still possible for me to go through ADAC?

Also, with the carnet, do you have to deposit amounts for each separate country, or can you deposit an amount for the most expensive country, and that deposit cover all your other countries you go to? I have enough money to cover the Egypt 800% on a KLR650, but will not have enough money to pay for each and every countries required deposit...

is your nationality Australian and is the bike on an Oz plate? Tried the Australian Automobile association??

I am from New Zealand and have kiwi passport, but also have Australian citizenship with Aus passport, and British citizenship by decent and can get a British passport if required. Yep the plate is an Oz plate, I haven't tried them but I'll look them up now. All this carnet stuff really hurts my head, almost thinking about just going and taking my chances... but that could cause some really unwanted hassles :(

It will be interesting to see your two quotes, one from rac and other from aaa to see what is cheaper/ best value for money.

Remember Rac do rough estimate valuations not book prices so give your estimate as if the bike has come back from a big trip with epic mileage and scratched to buggery ( as I like my bikes, not men ;-) ).

"interesting. 70% of bank guarantees not paying out...

how many overland vehicles do not make it 'home' or as a final import into final country"

Read Fern's comment above with interest - could this apply to those vehicles (of all types) being driven down and either "stored" , sold or dumped.

Another instance of those of us doing the right thing paying over the odds for it.

Margaret

Yet more rules from the RAC Revaluing the vehical!!
 

Hi everyone ,
We are now facing the same problems as Mark. How are you getting on by the way Mark?
RAC to extend our carnet have just doubled its original Carnet value, will not allow us to use our Bank Guarantee and will not give any overlap in time. They want the Carnet to end one day and start the next. They suggest we can explain that at the border in Africa!!
Maddness.
Still working on it. What does everyone think about using TIPs any help please
We are in South Africa at the moment and need the extension/ new carnet in 4 weeks time

ADAC carnet for UK vehicle
 

Hi Folks we are now right in the middle of all this.......
Six weeks before we leave and getting ripped off by the RAC.
-We have had two RAC carnets in the last few years and now everything seems to have changed.
-Paul, the most helpful of man in the world, has gone (can we start a bring back Paul campaign?)
-We have an old truck and have always left a cash deposit - no longer possible.
-Bank guarantee - no longer possible.
-Insurance the only option and the RAC have almost doubled the value of our 1984 truck.
- The RAC and ADAC have both agreed it is possible to have a German Carnet and even cited recent letters of non-objection from the RAC but upon application the RAC have refused permission on the basis that "under the terms of the carnet convention the CPD is issued by the issuing club of the country where the vehicle is registered". So far no one will tell us why others can have one but not us!
- Actual cost (after refunds) is almost £1000 with the RAC and €295 with ADAC. Both amounts double if we are away 13 months.
- We thought that within the EU monopolies were not allowed and that as an EU citizen we should be able to purchase goods from any other EU member. After all its a free market isn't it?

Can anyone help / advise where we go from here (other than just shell out)?
Again - we only have 6 weeks to go.

Send email to Mark Clissold at the RAC
 

Terry - are you ok with the ADAC carnet?

If so, you can send an email to Mark Clissold at the RAC (mclissold@rac.co.uk - he is Paul's replacement) requesting permission to procure an ADAC carnet and he should oblige.

Thanks Charlmagne.
No, the RAC have refused permission giving the reason in my last post.
We have been dealing with Jake Ward but have also spoken to Mark in the process. It seems the department manager, the person who made the decision, is Rebecca Lenthall. I've emailed again and asked her to reconsider on the basis that the RAC no longer offer a product which is suitable for our needs but ADAC do.
Does anyone know why the ADCA should need permission to supply a carnet to a EU citizen, we are after all one customs area?

Just my 2p’s-worth.

I'll be needing another RAC-issued CPD from around October/November time for southern Central Asia (Nepal – India – Pak – Iran).

I’ve just held a decent telephone conversation with Mark Clissold at the RAC in Bristol, who I have to say, was extremely pleasant, helpful and professional. And yes, he did phone me back (within an hour) after I left a message-request to return my call on his auto voicemail service.

Mark was very clear that an insurance indemnity is the only available option since the RAC's recent changes to the system. If I wish to go ahead then the processing time, from submitting the application to CPD document issue, will likely be around 4-6 weeks.

I’m okay with this. At least I know what the deal is all about now. Although I would prefer to go down the deposit or bank guarantee route, I can live with the final net cost of an insurance indemnity. My motorcycle’s not worth too much nowadays in any case. Of course, It would be telling a different story if I were riding or driving an expensive vehicle.

Cheers

Keith

How much.....
 

This makes my head spin ... :stormy: So how much does it actually cost. I m not going on my trip for a few years. If my bike is valued at say £9000. ( who does the valuation ) Have I got to put down a deposit of one and half times valve of the bike ..?

Cheers Al

RAC vs ADAC for bike valued at £9,000
 

Smudger - do you want to obtain your carnet from RAC or ADAC?

If RAC, it depends where you want to go, e.g. for Egypt cost = bike valuation x 800%; for India cost = bike valuation x 500%; for Kenya cost = bike valuation x 200%. As the insurance route is your only option, for Egypt insurance cost = 10% of 72,000 = £7,200. So you have to pay an insurance company £7,200 and you will receive 50% on return to the UK with a correctly stamped carnet. So cost to you is £3,600.

If ADAC, you pay €3,000 and you get it all back on return. So cost to you is nil, apart from the lost interest on the €3,000 - which is today's climate is pretty slim.

Hi, do you have contact details (email address or phone number) for English-speaking ADAC representatives who could discuss a CdP for a UK registered 4x4?
I've tried contacting them via email from their website but it won't accept the email without an ADAC membership number.
Will try my luck at seeing if they will issue one to me - cant believe the nonsense that RAC are up to at the moment!

Contact at ADAC
 

Wearthefoxhat,

Contact at ADAC is mischa.schueller@adac.de. He may not be forthcoming until the RAC authorises him to deal with you - so I would speak to Mark Clissold or Rebecca Lenthall at the RAC first. Let us know how you get on.

Any idea why the RAC have taken this stupid decision? Is it just a way of making more money? Isn't this something we need to take action on? Protest en masse? Lobby MPs?

Hi THanks for helping me , we'll the plan will be to do Afirca then over to Oz. Then I don't know!!!
So ADAC is the way to go, especially if you are on the road for a number of years in countries which require carnet. I was hoping to do a year in each continent ..

Many THanks Alan

I've got a motorbike and I got a carnet thru the ADAC for a Dutch registered motorbike for trip thru Africa in 2010.
No hassles at all.
They have a deal that because the Dutch AA does not issue carnet's then ADAC will.

I didn't use a bank guarantee: I gave a deposit of Euro 3,000. ADAC's prices and requirements for deposits etc are really reasonable. Nice people too. If you go to Munich you can even get it same day.

I've heard all sorts of bad stories about the RAC and carnets. I'm in UK now and will try my best to avoid them next trip.

But I think you REALLY want a carnet for an African trip, especially if it goes thru Egypt. Egypt customs is HORRIFIC, even if you have a carnet. If you decide not to get one and want to go thru Egypt then you need to REALLY make sure of how to do it.

I wonder if it's worth complaining to the Swiss company that runs the carnet system about the RAC. The AA's in each country only administer it for this company.

Boo Hoo to RAC
 

Hi everyone
I have been travelling from UK to Iran and back on my bike and car for nearly 20 years with
relative ease and using Carnet obtained from RAC, going down the Bankers Guarantee route.
Paul Gown of RAC had been very helpful. (We want him back). This year to my shock I found out that I have to fork out nearly £3500 cost! This is extortionate by any standard! I guess RAC now have the "monopoly" on Carnet. Perhaps time for the monopolys commission to look into it.
I have decided to write to the Iranian supreme leader and explain the situation in the hope maybe they will take it on board and make life a bit easier for fellow overland travellers. (Keep you posted of the outcome).
As for me, this time, I am taking a risk and going mid-august with no Carnet. I think I will get better treatment from Iranian border custom officials than RAC.
In the mean time I have to say, will not buy or use any RAC products, and make sure no one I know will do so either.
Regards Hibble.

Kind of agree, Hibble, the RAC have getting progressively worse for many years now. I gave up on their recovery stuff a while ago and now this Carnet stuff means I doubt they'll be getting any more custom from me.

There must be something we can do en masse to fight this.

RAC, refund delays ?
 

Hey, just wondered if any other people are currently trying to get their money back using the insurance indemnity?
RAC confirmed they received the carnet back on the 1st june and after about 4 weeks I got the RAC 350 portion back but they say they are experiencing delays on the insurance refunds as a result of changing procedures!!
How long does it normally take to get your money back?
Cheers all

I'm about to send mine back so I'll be watching this thread closely...

Ps I emailed then last week and they 'say' 6 weeks

RAC carnet rip off
 

I've been following this RAC carnet thread with interest.
I returned a carnet for refund on 19/7/13. They haven't acknowledged receipt yet, let alone refunded me any money.

I haven't been very impressed with the RAC, start to finish. The application process is ridiculously slow, the carnet way over priced £2925, they refused me an extension, and now will refund at a time that suits them. :nono:

I have a request! If anyone makes any progress with getting an ADAC carnet please let us all know via this thread. I am about to go off on another ride and will need another carnet. If there are any tricks to getting the RAC to provide a "No objection" letter to ADAC it would be great to know.

Thanks, David

I returned my CDP to the RAC in April and they haven't even acknowledged receipt yet. I sent them an email which prompted an automated responce, but nothing pertinent. I didn't realise this was such an issue, I suppose I'm lucky that it's only 500quid I'm owed. But I have to agree the whole process has been shambolic from day one, I had to chase them for 6 mths to get it in the first place, so I was expecting some tardiness in the repayment, but not however, to be completely ignored !
Perhaps we should form a group and approach Ann Robinson to presnt our case on Watchdog, shaming them on national TV !
UB.:D

Desperate frustration over RAC Carnet
 

Well Thank you all for the input.
We are currently in Tanzania we have contacted the RAC well in advance saying that we need to extend/renew our carnet. If we were to continue with our planned trip We would not be able to enter Egypt on the current document.
Their response has apparently has been one of blind beauracracy. They say 1. we must renew 2. We may not use any of the cash deposit that is on the original carnet I find this absurd as there is only one risk that is being guranteed and that is our vehicle.
3. In making a new application we have told them how difficult it is to download forms and other documents while on the move in Africa Their response was that as any documents would require a personal signature it wouldnt matter anyhow!
What this means to us is that we should now drop our further plans and drive to Egypt well in advance of our expiry date. Otherwise we could end up in real difficulty and possiblly not be able to discharge the Carnet.

Its a funny old world isnt it?
I am now wondering if in fact this is about the RAC not wanting to issue Carnets any more ??? I also wonder if those very helpful people that we dealt with initially like jessica have moved on because they are no longer allowed to be helpful?

These are just questions that I feel should be out there!
The RAC seems unmoved about our predicament

It has been made quite clear that there is no discussion to be had on this matter.
I would love to hear the official response from the RAC

Denied permission for ADAC carnet
 

I e-mailed the RAC a few days ago to ask for permission to apply for an ADAC carnet and here is their response:

Dear Sir

In line with the Carnet Convention, all CPD guaranteeing and issuing associations of the AIT and FIA are bound by a multilateral Guarantee Agreement which sets down all conditions for the guarantee and issue of Carnets de Passages en Douane.

An Association will issue Carnet documents only in respect of vehicles registered in the country of the Issuing Association. If, exceptionally the above condition is not met, the Issuing Association which receives the request for a Carnet must consult the Issuing Association in the other country concerned as necessary in order to ensure that adequate guarantees and permission is obtained.

We have made a decision as the issuing club for the UK, and to ensure we are following the guidelines of the agreement that we will now only provide permission for other clubs to issue Carnets on our behalf in exceptional circumstances. An example of an exceptional request could be; an application being part of an overall rally application the other club is issuing Carnets for where it makes sense that they issue all of the Carnets required for rally.

Kind Regards

Mark Clissold

Grrrrrrrrrr!!!

carne is usleas
 

i am now driving one a fake one thanks foto shop and printing company in india i whil make a few more fake ones sick and tierd off the carne the passage it cost shit loads offf money and yuo can go to india from nepal whid aout one yuost drive trou and dont stop att the custom the dont realy care any whay pakistan and iran dont give a dam iff yuo have one or not

Perhaps time to start organised protests, contacting MPs etc, esp as this government are so keen on choice and competition...allegedly.

Its basic racketeering and daylight robbery on the RAC's part. So glad I'm no longer a member

I got in contact with ADAC, they replied today (19/8/13) and they told me that they will not issue Carnet's to UK registered vehicles.

If anyone else has received a Carnet for a UK bike from anyone other than the RAC in the last month it would be great to hear about it.

David

After 3 emails over the last 2 weeks, I finally got confirmation from the RAC that they had received my CDP the first week in May ! They have assured me that my refund is on it's way, let's see !:D

''I got in contact with ADAC, they replied today (19/8/13) and they told me that they will not issue Carnet's to UK registered vehicles''.......................

The simple solution to this ( and the route I intend to use next time), is to buy your vehicle in Holland or Germany, as it the vehicles reg, not the owners that matters.
UB.

That's interesting, and how easy is it for UK residents to buy vehicles in Germany or Holland? Any specific issues? Cos otherwise I might try doing that as well.

Or how about registering your current vehicle in these countries? Is that possible? I'm a bit of a novice on these issues

According to RDW (dutch vehicle authority) a vehicle can be registered to dutch residents only, otherwise you'd have to register the vehicle for export. (source: RDW Website ) (never mind the funky google translate...)

If anyone knows a better way please post!

In the ADAC document that Charlemagne posted it says that there is an additional charge of 155 euros for vehicles on 'export plates' so it may still be possible.

I have already purchased my bike in the UK, maybe I could export it to Germany?

Demo
 

Demo at RAC HQ ?

Originally Posted by reallybigtruck http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...s/viewpost.gif
According to RDW (dutch vehicle authority) a vehicle can be registered to dutch residents only, otherwise you'd have to register the vehicle for export. (source: RDW Website ) (never mind the funky google translate...)

If anyone knows a better way please post!

I've bought vehicles in holland twice and registered them in my name, all you need is a Dutch address, I used a friends house ! I also bought a Hymer in Germany 3 years ago and again, all they wanted was a German address.I currently live in Portugal and my Portugese car is in my name, even though I am not resident, again, they only require an address.:cool4:

I can confirm that RAC have now processed my refund!! am sure it shouldnt of been so hard and stressfull, makes me glad that I am now living in NZ and don't have to deal with companies like RAC.....

we have our new second carnet
 

Hi folks sorry for the delay in posting.
We eventually got another carnet. It was very stressful . Lots of phone calls and e mails starting from Africa for two weeks. We had to scan all the docs sign and resend them.
Then silence from the RAC. Somehow they did not receive the docs. Diana had to fly back to the UK for a wedding.
We were given a price for the carne which was double the value of our vehicle. This was unacceptable especially with Egypt involved, fortunately we had an original valuation for our bank guarantee from last year. The RAC would only accept this from someone who knew the vehicle. Any modifications are irrelavant. Eventually they agreed to our valuation and then it was straight forward. Two weeks later and Diana returned back to Africa with the new carnet.
One thing to note is after much discussion they agreed we could have the new carnet start date the same date as the old carnet ended. They also dropped the request for the date and name of border we would cross.
We had to drop Egypt off the carnet due to cost and the political situation. However if we need to go through Egypt it is possible to buy an Egyptian carnet for one month or use a TIP.
Another problem, our bank guarantee was for two years and the bank will probably charge for the second year as well as us paying the insurance indemnity to
The RAC . We will keep you posted . All in all a pain and racket.

Carnet Chaos.
 

Sorry it took so long to get back to the forum, we've been flat out preparing to leave.
Anyway we eventually got our Carnet from ADAC in Germany. They were as courteous and efficient as you would expect but wouldn't move until the RAC agreed. At first the RAC refused so I sent the following email to the head of department Ms Lenthal,
"We were very disappointed to receive your decision concerning our application for a carnet and would ask you to reconsider on the following grounds;
- The RAC no longer offer the type of Carnet that we require ie a cash deposit carnet, the type that we have had from you for our previous two trips. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly our vehicle is very old and has a low value, your insurer will only insure a minimum of £1750 where as on our last trip (2010) the RAC agreed a value of £1000 for our Land Rover. Secondly we have had two Carnets from the RAC in recent years and met all requirements upon return to Europe. Your insurer does not recognise this and offers no related reduction in costs although we are obviously a lower risk than others that they insure. Thirdly we may well not return to the UK for 13 or 14 months. Your insurer offers no reduction in premium to recognise this shorter period of a month or two for a carnet extension and we could be faced with total costs for insurance that amount to almost twice the value of our vehicle! I'm sure you agree that this is not an acceptable situation and the RAC do not appear to be offering the service that overland travellers require.
- You say in your reasons for refusal that "under the terms of the carnet convention the CPD is issued by the issuing club of the country where the vehicle is registered" and yet the ADAC in Germany is perfectly happy to issue us with a Carnet despite the vehicle being registered here in the UK and in fact cited several previous occasions where they have received a "non-objection" letter from E. McLissold at the RAC for some of your other customers.
- Finally I find it hard to accept that the cost or raising a Carnet here in the UK can be so different to that in Germany. To buy a Carnet from the RAC I will have to lay out £2029 (for a 1984 car) of which £1050 is refundable. A cost of almost £1000 or £2000 for 13 months. In Germany this would cost me €295 (£245) with a fully refundable deposit of €5000 or £490 for 13 months!! How can this be? Surely the RAC Carnet is not only for wealthy people?

If you can not or will not reconsider our application then could you please advise me of our legal rights in this situation?
In this supposedly free market across the EU how can the RAC restrict access of an EU citizen to an alternative product available elsewhere in this common market. Surely there isn't country based monopoly in this situation?"

Eventually Louise Campbell (customer service) agreed and we got our Carnet! Our travelling companions then emailed Louise and she allowed them to go to the ADAC as well. Oh and then we got a further €100 discount from Germany because we are members of the AA here!!

So, what to do. The Carnet system world wide is run under the auspices of
the FIA and the AIT. Get onto both their websites and complain that the RAC are not offering the service that overlanders need or want. This is the only place where pressure might make a difference. Breaking international agreements by printing your own carnet will only devalue the system and eventually we will all pay the price as its running costs increase or it is withdrawn altogether.

Just to report that I also received my refund from the RAC today, after 5 mths of chasing !

Thank you Terry. Those of us with older vehicles need to keep the pressure up on the RAC otherwise to travel legally will take the costs totally out of reach of the normal people.

Margaret

Hope you have a good trip.

India
 

For the record, my engine blew itself up in India and I surrendered the vehicle to customs. I had no choice as the government customs refused Honda to fit a new engine (they were willing to send one from Thailand). Also they will take the vehicle at the border if the engine number doesn't match.

After relentless letters which they all ignored, 1 year later the Indian customs are now demanding payment plus interest. Comical really.

It's not worth taking your own vehicle. Rent one and save the hassle!

carnet du pass
 

im a bit confused about this pass,
i know you will need it for oz and newzeland,us, as these are very keen on the paperwork, but as i have been looking in to this over the months, i have been toled , and read many time, some people have enterd countries with no pass, and had no problems.
in my view,if the rac,and banks try to push prices up, by use of say ,arguments based on the wording! ! wont this surly force more people to just take the risk ,and then make there losses higher ?
in the UK, companies alway do things arse about face !! nothing less than short sighted ness !!
niffed jim !

I have just complained to the RAC, ADAC, and FIA about the monopoly the RAC is running against us UK overlanders. Does anybody haverhe contact detain for the AIT?
This is the letter i sent,mainly copied off Terry Harfords post just because it was so well written :D ;

Hi there,
1st off please let me state I am very disappointed to receive a decision concerning my application for a Carnet via the RAC and that I am writing to ask how the RAC are allowed to have a monopoly on UK issued Carnets.

Please look at the following grounds for my complaints;
- The RAC no longer offer the type of Carnet that we all ( UK drivers) require ie a cash deposit carnet, the type that we have had from them for our previous trips. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly alot of our vehicles is very old and have low value's, mine included, there insurer will only insure a minimum of £1750 where as on my last trip (2010) the RAC agreed a value of £1000 for my motorcycle.
Secondly i have had two Carnets from the RAC in recent years and met all requirements upon return to Europe. There insurer does not recognise this and offers no related reduction in costs although we are obviously a lower risk than others that they insure.
Thirdly we (UK drivers) may well not return to the UK for 13 or 14 months. There insurer offers no reduction in premium to recognise this shorter period of a month or two for a carnet extension and we could be faced with total costs for insurance that amount to almost twice the value of our vehicles! I'm sure you agree that this is not an acceptable situation and the RAC do not appear to be offering the service that overland travellers require.
- They say in there reasons for refusal that "under the terms of the carnet convention the CPD is issued by the issuing club of the country where the vehicle is registered" and yet the ADAC in Germany is perfectly happy to issue us with a Carnet despite the vehicle being registered here in the UK and in fact cited several previous occasions where they have received a "non-objection" letter from E. McLissold at the RAC for some of there other customers.
- Finally I find it hard to accept that the cost or raising a Carnet here in the UK can be so different to that in Germany.
To buy a Carnet from the RAC I will have to lay out £2029 (for a 2004 motorcycle, of which £1050 is refundable. A cost of almost £1000 or £2000 for 13 months.
In Germany this would cost me €295 (£245) with a fully refundable deposit of €5000 or £490 for 13 months!! How can this be? Surely the RAC Carnet is not only for wealthy people in the UK, and we should surely be treated like all other EU countrys and be able to apply directly through the ADAC . After all, all the Carnets are ran through the ADAC anyway.

If you can not or will not act on our this then could you please advise me of our legal rights in this situation?
In this supposedly free market across the EU how can the RAC restrict access of an EU citizen to an alternative product available elsewhere in this common market. Surely there isn't country based monopoly in this situation?"

I look forward to hearing from you on the matter
Yours
Will Downs

I'm game :D

I just got this off of the ADAC,

Experiencing Carnet frustration? Complain to AIT & FIA
 

Will,

Thanks for your posts. I can well understand the frustration you and others are experiencing in relation to this little item of bureaucracy that should occupy travellers for no longer than 10 minutes!

RAC has published on their website the reasons for their business review and the subsequent withdrawal of the cash deposit and bank guarantee options. Not very convincingly I have to say but there it is.

My only suggestion is to complain, politely, to the two governing bodies for the carnet being the AIT (www.ait-touringalliance.com) and the FIA (Portal | Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) mentioning that the RAC only offers a costly insurance indemnity instead of the significantly cheaper cash deposit option offered by ADAC, and that you request the AIT and FIA to pressure the RAC to issue "no-objection" letters to travellers so that they can contact other carnet-issuing members.

Hi all, I have just git this off if the RAC, doubt they'll change anything though :( but I a still waiting on the responses from FIA and AIT;

Dear Mr Downs,

Thank you for your email dated 25th March and for bringing your concerns to our attention.

I will be conducting a full investigation into your complaint and I will contact you within 10 working days concerning this matter. In the meantime, should you wish to discuss this further, please contact me at the above email address or by phone on **********, please note I am out of the office tomorrow.

Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to investigate your concerns.

Yours sincerely


Louise Campbell
Customer Care Officer RAC

Good work Will...how about a copy and paste generic letter that we could all send to all involved?? One minute to click and a headache for them.

No worries, good idea, we need to shout about this as much as we can :thumbup1:

I have just had this reply from the RAC, its basically a long winded way to say 'Yes were stuffing you all, but tough' :censored:

What they mention a few times is the fact there a 'club' and it's up to them what to do with the Carnet issuing, how about this........
We set up our own club and apply for the Carnets to be ran through us as well as the RAC. The AA and RAC used to do it so why cant we but only for adventure folk like us :mchappy:

Anyway here's the email i received;

Dear Mr Downs,
Thank you for your email addressed to our Carnet Department. I have been asked to look into and respond to your concerns.

We have been issuing Carnet de Passage en Douanes (CPDs) for more than 20 years and we have been the only issuer in the UK since the withdrawal of the other issuing club a number of years ago. We are committed to maintaining this service for the benefit of anyone wanting to take their vehicle to countries outside of Europe and we have taken steps to ensure the service is fairly priced for the risks involved.

The risk of a vehicle not being re exported can be costly to the club issuing the CPD and the amount of financial security needed to guard against re exportation not happening varies dramatically. Following a business review at the beginning of 2013 a decision was made to only offer insurance indemnity as security for CPDs due to the risk factors of the other security options. On average only 4% of CPDs issued were secured by bank guarantee, so it was withdrawn because of low take up and the difficulties associated with administration and legal requirements, which varied from bank to bank. Additionally the bank guarantee does not give the vehicle owner the same level of security that an insurance indemnity offers. Full cash deposits were also withdrawn for similar reasons and whilst we recognise this may be a disappointment the changes were necessary to reduce risk and to allow us to invest in our service and improve efficiency.

Other issuing organisations may have different attitudes to the financial risks, however, we have taken the necessary steps to ensure we can meet any financial obligations in respect of a claim arising through the use of a CPD.
As per the AIT/FIA CPD Handbook CPDs must not be issued to foreign registered vehicles, but exclusively to vehicles with license plates of the country of the issuing club. This is a rule set down in the AIT/FIA Guarantee Agreement. There are exceptions i.e. CPDs may be issued to residents of countries where there is no issuing club and also if written authorisation is received from the issuing club in which the vehicle is licensed. We would only grant permission in exceptional circumstances and we would not consider the varying costs between issuing clubs as an exception.
The AIT/FIA Information Centre, based in London, collects and distributes information on 65 countries for the AIT and FIA clubs. As per the guidelines in the CPD Handbook we, as an issuing club, must ensure that all necessary steps have been taken to meet financial obligations in the event of a claim. We determine the amount of security deposit and bearing in mind that duty rates are quite high in certain countries we follow the recommendation of the AIT/FIA by taking an adequate deposit.

I'm sorry as I know it won't be the answer you hoped for but our decision not to grant permission to the ADAC stands, however, I do hope I have been able to explain the reasoning behind it. If you would like to discuss this further please contact me on 0********.

Yours sincerely
Louise Campbell
Customer Care Officer

Perhaps we should start a campaign to get the RAC to stop issuing CDPs. That way there would be no issuing club in the UK and we could all go to ADAC.

Politely put, I am annoyed the CDP is becoming something only rich people can afford!

The insurance option is a bit of a self-fulfilling vicious circle really. Of course the risk of people not bringing their vehicle back home is a lot higher when they're not going to get much money back! It's a sunk cost, so what's to stop you selling the bike abroad? Most of your cash goes to the insurance and RAC (225 GBP for a pre-printed booklet?!?) and you only get a tiny fraction back.

If I knew I would stand to get most of my money back, I might make much more of an effort to bring my vehicle home!

Sadly its a money making thing for them and the insurances, not as the letter above would have you believe, an effort to make continuation of the CPD service possible for us travelers.

Sorry to rant! I hope the RAC read these things too!

The great RAC CPD rip-off
 

I have been reading this thread with interest.

I have just received my bike back from Dubai (I rode there from London in September) and am about to submit my completed CPD to the RAC.

I was travelling with a group of German registered bikes and my co-adventurers were bemused to hear that I did not receive the full amount of deposit back once I reimported my bike.
They all thought it sounded like a complete rip off that I only received 50% of my deposit when ADAC issued them with 100%.

I spoke to the RAC today and am waiting for a manager to call me back to explain this but the underling I spoke to kept telling me that it is an insurance policy that I am paying for.
Having done some research on this matter and reading through the ADAC website, it would appear that the same insurance company, Millers Insurance, provides insurance for both the RAC and ADAC so I cannot see why as European citizens, there is one rule for the Germans and another for us British. Why do we get ripped off?
I am happy to pay for the costs of providing the CPD and administrative costs but why do I have to pay £3200 (50% of the deposit) to the RAC when German, fellow EU citizens, do not get penalised the same? Surely this is a case for the Monopolies Commission?

If any of you have encountered a simmilar situation I would be interested in starting a petition to bring the RAC in line with other EU organisations which offer the same service.
This stinks and something should be done about it.

I don't understand how this can happen.

I was living in the Netherlands, with an NL registered bike, and got my Carnet from ADAC because NL AA doesn't issue carnets, and they have arranged with ADAC to do that.

I had to send the money to ADAC: Euro 3150.
I got the full Euro 3,000 deposit back.

The actual Carnet is issued by a Swiss organization: FIA Federation Internationale de l'Automobile.

The Carnet that I got was described as a guarantee for a foreign company that a vehicle will be re-exported within a time limit. However in the fine print it says that it is an insurance, backed by a Lloyds of London company (R.L. Davison & Co. Ltd).

What did the paperwork say was supposed to happen?
The informal info from ADAC very clearly stated that I'd get a full 100% refund of my deposit: see attached.

HOWEVER, now that I've seen your posting I've gone back to read the fine print on the ADAC issued carnet (see attached).
And in THAT, see Section 8, it says "Upon return of the definitively canceled customs document ADAC is entitled, but not obliged to pay out the cash deposit to the recipient listed on receipt...."

BUT in the ADAC webpage info (in a pdf) they DO say (Section 9: Return) that the deposit will be refunded. That's what I saw, I never even saw the part where it says they are "entitled but not obliged". Very strange.

Why would RAC not refund it, and yet ADAC would?

I would also contact FIA and ask them what their policy is.

Do your homework and then consider getting a lawyer and presenting that to them.
But do the work yourself, don't ask them to do that: you wll get chaged more.
You paid for a service that should be pretty straight-forward.
A lawyer's letter to RAC might work wonders.
It's definitely worth at least half of the amount you think you should get back.

Hi All,

Today we had the RAC send us a nice email, on the last Friday before Christmas whilst we are in Colombia, to tell us that they have written to our bank to make a claim on our Bank Guarantee for a carnet used in 2012 -2013.

They did not tell us a claim had been made,

They did not allow us to defend the claim

They did not notify us before approaching our bank to claim the guarantee

They told us they don't send letters any more and just communicate by email (they were unable to provide any copies of emails to us), last year they told me they only communicate by post lol

We spoke to them last year when they withdrew the Bank Guarantee without notice, RAC Improved Carnet service & 10% off your Carnet | Overland Sphere - Overland Travel Forum & Information
They promised to improve their service, it seems to me its just going downhill.

With all of this we want to send a message to the RAC and would ask if you would sign and share our Petition on change.org

https://www.change.org/p/fia-rac-uk-...ter-rac-carnet


Sign this petition,

- show the RAC we want to be treated better,

- to break the monopoly that the RAC has,

- to have a free market in Europe and across the world on Carnets

- to make the RAC allow you to use other Carnet issuers without barriers

- to force the RAC to actually make contact or make all reasonable efforts to contact you prior to making a claim

That's actually a pretty good idea to ask the RAC to stop issuing carnets.
Then you would be able to go somewhere else for it, someone who actually wants to provide a service.

The main FIA website says that you have up to one year to provide proof of re-exportation of the vehicle. So t would seem that the RAC jumped the gun here Mart's case. And it also says the claim has to be submitted within 1 year of the expiry of the carnet.

How does the CPD system function? | Federation Internationale de l'Automobile

And I think there must be some legal definition for how the RAC is supposed to notify you if a claim has been made. I doubt an email would do: there's no proof of delivery for an email. But if the DID send you a letter to your address of record and you didn't read it, then you are a bit screwed. However you do have a year to contest it.

It says that in the FIA Regulations.

RAC carnet de passages rip-off
 

Well done Mart, I have signed your petition.
I was going to start one myself until I saw your post.
The RAC is a monopoly and should not be able to block UK citizens from obtaining a CPD through ADAC in Germany.
Surely there are EU laws that prevent this type of racket?
ADAC and RAC both use the same insurer, Millers Insurance Services, so I don't believe for a minute that ADAC somehow obtain cheaper policies that mean they can refund 100% of the deposit where the RAC will not.
Who do you intend submitting the petition to?
I have been trying to find a regulatory body to whom the RAC answers to but have had luck so far.

Hi All Thanks for the replies:

@WarthogARJ
The RAC received the claim on the 12 Dec 2013 from the AAA and Australian Customs.

I believe they have to settle all claims within one year, we had a similar issue last year with a claim made by Malaysia, we were notified late by the RAC but managed to get a Police report whilst in Australia to back up the carnet etc and the claim was dropped before the RAC settled it.

Whats different this time is:
1) that the RAC did not notify us of this claim until yesterday, They claim sent they a couple emails (they have yet provided me copies of these yet, they have confirmed they did not send anything by post)

2) they seem to have lost the returned Carnet,

3) so rather than letting us know and seeing if we had copies or other evidence they just settled the claim by claiming on our bank guarantee with our bank to pay Australian customs... we have copies, BL, photos from the ship to NZ, and have forwarded these all directly to the Australian customs & AAA. There is just no point in going through the RAC.

The claim i hope will eventually be rejected & refunded but until then, they would have messed up our UK banking relationship and taken our funds.

If this was the ADAC this would not happen, it would have also been cheaper and we would not have (like many other travellers) had a series of issues over the last few years. Hence Change in the UK is needed!


@njcwilkinson

The bodies I would be sending this to are:

The CEO of the RAC
FIA
Competition and markets authority (was the Competition Commission)


Last year the RAC stated in an email to me that there would be no reason for them to ever deny a request for a letter of Non Objection to use the ADAC.

I have sent them an email this morning requesting one but i have also pushed them to issue a general statement on their website notifying people looking for a carnet of their rights to use another Carnet issuer if they wish.

We will see if they come through on this or not, if they don't I will raise it with the Competition and markets authority.

If the RAC were competitive and competent, we would not have these issues, one can only hope that they do improve...


It would be fantastic if you could also share the petition link with other overlanders, the more we have sign the more pressure we can put on the RAC make change,


https://www.change.org/p/fia-break-t...ter-rac-carnet

Thanks for all your support.

I think you guys need to look into the background of how the carnet system works: if you want to fight it, you need to understand the current system.

My understanding is that the organization FAI issues the carnets: there are several types, not just for vehicles, but for all sorts of customs import. They use them for Grand Prix for instance, World Cup yachts, Olympics etc etc. They are single use or multiple use, single country or multi-country. They vary a lot.

The market for world travelers on bikes and 4x4's is miniscule compared to the entire market. However the CPD that we use is recognized at the borders of even the most remote places: I think you'd struggle if you used something else.

Millers Insurance Services is NOT used by ADAC or RAC etc directly. It is the UNDER-RIGHTER (Lloyds) of the FAI. Sure it's mentioned in your policy, but you're not actually dealing with them. You are buying a GUARANTEE from the FAI, that is sold by the organizations that represent them in any given country: ADAC, RAC etc. And that guarantee is backed by an insurance policy. The guarantee says that if don't follow the import/export rules in a specific country, that the country can claim on the FAI (via ADAC, RAC etc.) If the money the RAC etc got from you, or your bank etc is not enough, then they get the rest from the under-righters.

And I myself would not want to really "trust" some character who wants to make ME liable for some debt, who has left the country, is hard to reach, and has vague plans of when they will be back!! So can you really blame them for not wanting to bend over backwards and get into bed with us just on trust? No. That's why they want the $$$.

If you look at the FAI websight, our carnets are under "Mobility". There are other types, and other agents in the UK. But only one does mobility in the UK.

It's not really a monopoly, anymore than if you want to buy something from Touratech, and are told you have to get it from Touratech UK. And cannot buy it (via post) from say Touratech Germany.

Same as a car: if you buy a Mercedes, you have to buy from the local firms. Unless you go to another country and satisfy the local rules. And they usually want you to be a local resident etc.

I HATE this local distributor deal as well: I don't see why I cannot buy direct. Why pay someone like Touratech UK a lot more for little extra? OK, maybe to be able to return it to them than to Germany etc: but I am willing to take that risk. And they often don't have stock, so you have to wait until they get something in. But it's common practice: so is obviously not easy to fight. This is sort of a digression, but it DOES show that this RAC/Carnet thing is pretty typical of how things work in the EU.

And if you read my earlier post, the fine print in what you signed for, says that they are "ENTITLED to" but "NOT OBLIGED" to refund your deposit. and THAT was from ADAC. Scarey stuff, but is in the fine print. And you signed for it (as did I). I'm lucky that ADAC doesn't do that.

But the FAI does the carnet's according to international treaties: I briefly tried to get a copy, I'm sure it's possible. But I'm sure is a fairly complex thing.

Actions for Mart etc:
Carnet to RACE: I assume you took a copy of the Carnet before you returned it? And sent it registered mail, or courier? Right?
If you didn't, you're going to have problems: how can you prove you actually used it properly otherwise? Or actually sent it back?
It's a legal document, and worth quite a bit of money.

Notification: You need to get legal advice on this, but I think that emails cannot be used as legal notification of a claim. I think you have to use a letter, or a fax (faxes have a proof of where they were sent from, and proof of receipt: emails do not).

If so, the RAC had to notify you in writing, within the periods specified. If you didn't leave them with a proper address for this, or didn't read your mail, or have someone read it, then I think you are in trouble.

But if they did not notify you properly then THEY are the ones at fault.

The paperwork/red-tape is part of the whole "adventure" process unfortunately. It's not just a case of jumping in the vehicle and roaring off. The rules change, and you need to be on top of it: visas, customs, insurance, medical etc etc.

If you screw up, you can lose big time. Not just money. At the extremes people have been arrested/detained/held in places like Iran, North Korea, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Saudi etc.

@WarthogARJ

Thanks for the info, I am directly in contact with the AAA in Australia regarding my claim, they now have a copy of my Carnet, BL, photos from the ship and even details of the person who signed and also took a copy the carnet at the customs in Wollongong. I should hear back from them tomorrow.

It's a shame the RAC did not bother to contact me for copies before proceeding with settling the claim, for me this is just negligence.

I have a lot of experience in Financial Compliance, I am used to rules and regulations. I am up for a fight with the RAC, we have had a carnet with them for the last 4 years, 4 years of annoyance at their incompetence.

The rules for Business and consumers are very different, in the UK consumer protection over financial products is becoming main stream with fairness and being treated equally being very important.

The FIA appear to want to promote mobility, whereas the actions of the RAC are limiting this for people in the UK. Which could be seen as being discriminatory if they do not allow you access to other markets, especially when they are not offering the same product any more.

I have asked the RAC for details of their polices and procedures regarding claims made on carnets. Once I have that I shall start considering my actions and the best outlet for my complaint.

Thanks for your help & support

Forgive me if this is a naive question, but having read this thread and the rules on the RAC website (http://www.rac.co.uk/pdfs/driving-ab...et-prices.aspx) I'm flabbergasted at the potential cost of a CdP for a trip to India.

If I've worked it out correctly, to take a trip on my f800gs (value £5000) to India the costs will be:
10 page CdP(to get through Iran, Pakistan and India) = £220
Refundable deposit = £350
Country specific payment (Security Rate at 500% of £5000 = £25, 000. 10.6% security risk rate = £2650) = £2650

Total payable for CdP = £3,220

The refund (assuming the bike makes it back in one piece) will eventually be the deposit plus 50% of the security risk rate (£350 + £1,325) = £1,675

Meaning that the whole CdP will cost £1545. That's crazy - or am I missing something?

For anyone with long memories, what were the equivalent costs associated with the bank guarantee or deposit?

If it were possible to get the RAC to allow ADAC to issue a CdP what would the costs be?

Dave

We posted a comparison of the different Carnet methods here:

A Guide to Carnet de Passage - Overland Travel | Overland Sphere - Overland Travel Forum & Information

It also details other carnet issuers costs too.

Thanks Mart - looks like the insurance route is the most expensive. Typical :censored:

Has anyone managed to find a work around - getting RAC to waive it so that we can use ADAC?

Dave

Hi,
I don't understand your summary sheet, but maybe that's because it's oriented towards the UK and RAC.

I got two CDP's from ADAC (I was in Netherlands): was hassle free.
I got them the same day: I stopped in Munich on my way.
They are REALLY nice people at ADAC. If you call them you maybe need to wait a bit until you get an English speaker if your German is poor.

The rates and the form are EXACTLY the same, 4 years later:
Fee (members) Euro 195 (non-members) Euro 295
Postal delivery charge: Euro 3.50 (zero if you collect it)
Deposit: Euro 3,000 (Item 3: includes Iran, for value motorbike <= Euro 15k)

You need to transfer/give them this: they keep it until you return the CDP.

And you get 100% refund on your Deposit, assuming you follow the rules.

So the ADAC coverage costs you Euro 198.50 or Euro 298.50 (depending if they recognize your RAC membership: but rather join ADAC!!!).
I didn't add in the loss of interest on the Euro 3,000...:innocent:

Sprechen sie Deutsch? Viva ADAC, RAC ist fur scheisskopfs!!

Herr Alan the Happy HP2 rider....:clap:

Hi,
You should seriously consider joining either ADAC or the Dutch AA on your way if you cannot get a waiver from the RAC.

I'd suggest doing whatever it takes to join ADAC direct, and that means registering your bike in Germany.
Is no big deal to do it in NL, but they do make you pay a refundable import tax on your bike (is like Euro 1,000). You do get it back after.

You should find out how to change your bike registration: in the NL it takes a couple weeks to get an appointment, dunno in Germany. but you could make the appointment before.
MUCH quicker than the DVLA: they give you plates at the place you go to in the NL.
You need your bike inspected thee, and pay your tax money: all you need is the right-hand-side headlight to be changed to pass the inspection.
Same place that inspects you gives you your plates in NL, bet it's just as efficient in Germany.
Get German insurance: no big deal I'm sure, I got my Dutch via Internet and phone, MUCH cheaper and less hassle than in the UK.
And the Green card is included.

I don't know if you need to show them a German address: you'd need to research that.
Surely you have a German connection somewhere who will let you use theirs?

Sure is a bit of a hassle, but better than giving the RAC thieving schweinhunds huge amounts of $$$ for nothing.

Alan

I'm not sure ADAC will issue a CDP if the country where the vehicle is registered have their own issuing body?

Has anyone with a UK reg vehicle ever successfully bought a cdp from ADAC?

There are only three ways to get ADAC to issue a CDP:
- to a vehicle/motorbike registered in Germany (that's obviously the bulk of what they do in CDP's)
- to a Netherlands registered vehicle (this is because the NL doesn't have an organization that has agreed to issue CDP) I got two CDP like this
- in theory to a UK registered vehicle if the RAC says it is OK to do that (this is what they seem to have told people: I haven't personally seen this in writing)

Also in theory one could get a CDP from the another EU AA (see list on FIA website), if they were willing. They probably have the same rule that ADAC/RAC has, that you need a waiver. Is worth checking.

I really suggest that anyone who is trying to get a CDP from the UK go look on the FIA website and spend some time on it. And even call-up the FIA offices and discuss the problem.
The information on costs of CDP's (RAC vs ADAC etc) would be a good thing to discuss: you might find a reasonable person there.

The other possibility is that you look thru the list of places where they issue other types of FIA instruments in the UK (not just for CDP, but other stuff). The website lists SIX UK clubs that have membership of FIA for "mobility":
Federation Internationale de l'Automobile[0]=field_memberclub_category%3A131&f[1]=field_memberclub_xml_country%3AUnited%20Kingdom

You can be a member of FIA for other reasons than granting CDP's. Perhaps one of these other organizations might be willing to issue a CDP.
It's worth asking them, although I suspect it's a long shot.

But the problem is that what we want is a hassle for all concerned. There's quite a bit of risk involved for whatever club does it. Sure in theory it's covered by the insurance policy that covers the guarantee, but insurance is never 100% perfect. And they do make an admin charge: but these things are a big hassle.

Look at the people who have been posting on this forum. No offence, but I understand one of them has had at least one, if not two challenges to their CDP. So either they made a mistake or the country they went thru did. Or it was an attempt to try to get money for nothing by the country involved. But either way, a huge hassle for the RAC. I know that ADAC have quite a few issues with CDP's and the people they gave them to not following the rules. I'm amazed they are still so friendly!

Both the RAC and ADAC do this as a service, and sure that's what they are supposed to be doing. But people like us are a very small part of their membership, and are very demanding too.

I think that this issue is going to take quite a bit of work to resolve: I have my doubts that it will be solved by just discussing things on this forum, or searching the internet. It will take some phoning and homework. And maybe paying for a lawyer to challenge the RAC, or else FIA itself.

FIA has procedures where you can make a claim, as well as an appeal. It seems possible to challenge how RAC is administering the CDP on FIA's behalf. Again: look thru the FIA website.

Perhaps the thing to do is the UK guys who need the CDP now get together and pool their money to pay for a lawyer. And ask for donations from other interested people (I'd pay towards it). First do the homework though on what is going to be needed.

I don't need a CDP within the next 12 months, so I'm not going to volunteer to spearhead that. And I will swap my registration to NL before I pay the RAC these crazy amounts.

Best of luck.

Quite few have managed to get a letter of "Non Objection" From the RAC

This is a quote from the RAC in 2013

"Issuing clubs normally only issue Carnets for vehicles registered in their country. However, Carnets may be issued for foreign registered vehicles from countries where there is no issuing club or if written permission is obtained from the home club. This is one of the rules of the convention. If you wish to apply through an alternative issuing club we would have no reason to refuse this, however we want to resolve your concerns and work with you to progress your application for a new Carnet.

Our Carnet team can contact you separately to grant permission if this is something you want to pursue."

This is from the ADAC - Note in our communications with the ADAC they have always been willing to provide us a Carnet - provided we get the letter of non objection

"First of all you have to Provide us with the non-objection, we would than be happy to issue you a Carnet"

Letter of Non Objection
If people were looking for a for a letter of non objection, I would state the reasons for wanting a carnet from the ADAC was due the RAC not providing the same financing options as the ADAC are, and that you would not be able travel under the only option, the insurance method, being offered by the RAC.

They would find it hard to refuse...

If anyone has been refused a letter of non objection.

Could you please forward me the details, as I am putting together a compliant to be issued to a number of bodies. To go with the petition we have started.

https://www.change.org/p/fia-break-t...ter-rac-carnet


Looking at what the RAC is doing and how this is limiting the rights of UK Travellers, i would be surprised if we did not get a positive outcome from this.

There is no need for a solicitor right now, many questions can be answered by writing directly to the bodies, once we have their arguments / defence (if it is not a positive outcome) it may be the time for a solicitor.

It may be hard work but i will push through on this,

Actually another item that is really puzzling is that how can the fee structure for a CDP be so completely different from issuing club to club??
They are issuing the same FIA CDP.
And they have the same insurance underwriters.
And it is the same risk: same motorbike/vehicle, same country you go thru, same Euro citizenship/driving licence etc.

And you need to be careful in the wording here, the RAC uses the term "deposit" differently from ADAC.

ADAC has only two real charges:
(1) Issuing fee: Euro 195 or 295
(2) Deposit (which they also call the Guarantee): varies according to vehicle and country you visit, but for a visit by motorbike via Iran or Egypt with a motorbike of value up to Euro 15k it is Euro 3,000
- And they DO take a bank guarantee
And in practice they refund 100% of this (although in the fine print they do say they are "entitled but not obliged" to do so)
So assuming you follow the rules, it costs you Euro 195 (£152) (if you join ADAC)

RAC has at least three charges:
(1) Issuing fee: £215 to £225
(2) "Deposit": (100% refundable) £350
(3) Country specific payment: only 50% refundable
For the same motorbike to Egypt or Iran
Assume £5.9k "chassis value" (I used half of the Euro 15k value):
800% x £5,865 X 10.6% = £4,974

So you have to give them £5,549.
And if you follow the rules, you only get £2,837 back (only 50% of Item 3).
Which means it cost you £2,711.

And for ADAC it was £152!!
That truly is a HUGE difference.

I know from experience that they don't let you claim an unrealistic chassis value: some friends from South Africa asked that.

Anyways, that is something worth asking the RAC to explain/justify in writing.
And THEN to ask FIA about it.
And ask if that is correct according to existing rules.

And THEN, assuming whatever FIA says doesn't make RAC change its tune, you likely need to challenge what RAC does to FIA.
Probably need a lawyer for that to get the right procedure & wording.

But the MAIN thing is not to do anything that will get ADAC upset. They've already said they will issue a CDP with an RAC waiver. So please don't pester them to do anything without that.

Is perhaps one reason why RAC is so unreasonable is that enough UK travellers with CDP's from them caused problems for them?? And thus made things bad for the rest of us? I don't mean Mart and similar travellers, but people who have blatantly abused the CDP: sold vehicles in the country they got to.

The real reason the RAC is in a mess is due their complete incompetence,

I was speaking to their media relations last year about the withdrawal of the Bank Guarantee, and they said that many vehicles were incorrectly valued, many claims they made on the guarantee did not pay out, and many banks complained about guarantee wording.

I think the RAC got themselves in a whole world of mess...

I wont get the ADAC involved as you have stated they are playing ball.

People here should not be at a detriment due to the miss-management at the RAC.