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Recently sky lost it's case against a pub landlord as she bought her premier league coverage from Grease. This is a similar thing. What ever you do, write to your MEP or EU compatition comission or pressure group. DO SOMETHING otherwise we will royally taken over the barrel time after time! |
Actually, you can get an get a CDP for a UK reg vehicle from the ADAC in Germany, all you need is a letter from the RAC in UK, saying that they have no objection !
Not something they are inclined to do very often, for obvious reasons, but it has been known ! UB.beer |
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The ADAC told me this month that they will no longer issue it to a UK vehicle, even for a German citizen. The RAC also told me this month that they would give permission to the ADAC only in 'exceptional' reasons. Being a German national and ADAC member not being one! Academic anyhow in light of what the ADAC told me. So we are in the clutches of the RAC's racketeering. |
Well, danielsprague, that is curious, because I can tell you for a fact that the ADAC were issuing CDP for UK reg vehicles as recently as Sep 2013, as I know of people who (with a letter of no objection from RAC) got one !
They, too, were initiallt refused and told it was no longer possible, but persisted and were eventually successful. Out of interest, who did you speak to at the RAC that told you this ? UB.beer |
From Mischa Schueller, at the ADAC in Munich, on 06-02-2014, a few hours after sending my mail to them. (I had a string of carnets from them between 2007 and 2010):
Dear Mr. Sprague, thank you for your e-mail. The competence of carnet-issuing does not refer to the nationality of the applicant, but to the country of vehicle-registration. As we had a lot of trouble giving British citizens the recommednation to ask for a non-objection at RAC, there is really no way neither to issue a Carnet de Passages for a UK-registered vehicles nor to give a recommendation to ask at RAC for a "non-objection". It is simply not possible for us to issue a Carnet de Passages for British-registered vehicles. A big Sorry for not being able to serve you with this matter, but that's the way it is handled. Kind regards from Munich, And from a Jake Ward 10-02-2014, RAC Carnets, four days after I sent them an enquiry: Dear Mr Sprague, Apologies for the late response. In line with the Carnet Convention, all CPD guaranteeing and issuing associations of the AIT and FIA are bound by a multilateral Guarantee Agreement which sets down all conditions for the guarantee and issue of Carnets de Passages en Douane. We have made a decision as the issuing club for the UK, and to ensure we are following the guidelines of the agreement that we will now only provide permission for other clubs to issue Carnets on our behalf in exceptional circumstances. An example of an exceptional request could be; an application being part of an overall rally application the other club is issuing Carnets for where it makes sense that they issue all of the Carnets required for the rally. Yours sincerely, Would be very keen to hear if you know a way round this! |
'In line with the Carnet Convention, all CPD guaranteeing and issuing associations of the AIT and FIA are bound by a multilateral Guarantee Agreement which sets down all conditions for the guarantee and issue of Carnets de Passages en Douane.'
...is meaningless waffle, and has no connection to the issue in question. I just decided to respond to Mr Ward at the RAC. I wonder if I will receive a response to the email which I have copied below: Dear Mr Ward. Thank you for your response. Seeing that the RAC makes it several times more expensive to obtain an identical document for the same vehicle when compared with the ADAC, please reassure me as to the legal basis of this situation. Specifically, could you please send me a copy of the Carnet Convention, or at least refer me to the exact location in said Convention, which relates to the national issuing organisation having exclusive rights to issue a CDP to vehicles registered in that country, and / or to any other section which would preclude the ADAC, or any other issuing organisation, from issuing a CDP for a UK registered vehicle. Yours sincerely |
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of members can post what their carnets cost, for what bike and value and where I will try to get it together for a standard mail for us to use in emailing our mep's. Brendan |
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"Good on you" to try; I hope you get a full and prompt reply from RAC. FYI--here are the texts of the Convention to which RAC/ Mr. Ward refers: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...n/impprive.pdf I'm not an international lawyer (nor play one on the telly or internet), but my quick reading of this Convention suggests that there is nothing in the language of the Convention itself which addresses the specific RAC claim/ interpetation of its authority, nor--to the point--the CdP fees RAC charges. My understanding is that the RAC claim is based rather on "accepted practice" among the national auto clubs under their agreement through AIT Carnet de passages en douane (CPDs) | Alliance Internationale de Tourisme (AIT) the international association that implements the Convention; and the RAC is choosing to impose these relatively high CdP fees either a) because its actual business costs may be higher than other countries' auto clubs; or b) simply because they can "get away with it" or both. That's only speculation/ guesswork. BUT--short of getting RAC to open its financial books/ calculations to you to justify its relatively high CdP fees--you MIGHT get some action just by 'shaming' the RAC with actual comparative data on their fees vs. the fees of similar auto clubs like ADAC, TCH (Switzerland), CAA (Canada & US), etc; (and continue to copy to various MEPs, etc) Good luck! :mchappy: |
It seems to me that there is no consistency from the ADAC and that is part of the problem, there are examples on this forum (check the other CDP threads) of the ADAC telling people that they cannot issue CDP for UK vehicles dating back from years ago, however there are also examples of people who have managed to to get an ADAC CDP for a UK vehicle during that time for example.......
davidedgell 18 Aug 2013 I got in contact with ADAC, they replied today (19/8/13) and they told me that they will not issue Carnet's to UK registered vehicles. However, further on in the same thread, we find....................... Terry Harford 4 Sep 2013 Anyway we eventually got our Carnet from ADAC in Germany. They were as courteous and efficient as you would expect but wouldn't move until the RAC agreed. At first the RAC refused so I sent the following email to the head of department Ms Lenthal, "We were very disappointed to receive your decision concerning our application for a carnet and would ask you to reconsider on the following grounds; - The RAC no longer offer the type of Carnet that we require ie a cash deposit carnet, the type that we have had from you for our previous two trips. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly our vehicle is very old and has a low value, your insurer will only insure a minimum of £1750 where as on our last trip (2010) the RAC agreed a value of £1000 for our Land Rover. Secondly we have had two Carnets from the RAC in recent years and met all requirements upon return to Europe. Your insurer does not recognise this and offers no related reduction in costs although we are obviously a lower risk than others that they insure. Thirdly we may well not return to the UK for 13 or 14 months. Your insurer offers no reduction in premium to recognise this shorter period of a month or two for a carnet extension and we could be faced with total costs for insurance that amount to almost twice the value of our vehicle! I'm sure you agree that this is not an acceptable situation and the RAC do not appear to be offering the service that overland travellers require. - You say in your reasons for refusal that "under the terms of the carnet convention the CPD is issued by the issuing club of the country where the vehicle is registered" and yet the ADAC in Germany is perfectly happy to issue us with a Carnet despite the vehicle being registered here in the UK and in fact cited several previous occasions where they have received a "non-objection" letter from E. McLissold at the RAC for some of your other customers. - Finally I find it hard to accept that the cost or raising a Carnet here in the UK can be so different to that in Germany. To buy a Carnet from the RAC I will have to lay out £2029 (for a 1984 car) of which £1050 is refundable. A cost of almost £1000 or £2000 for 13 months. In Germany this would cost me €295 (£245) with a fully refundable deposit of €5000 or £490 for 13 months!! How can this be? Surely the RAC Carnet is not only for wealthy people? If you can not or will not reconsider our application then could you please advise me of our legal rights in this situation? In this supposedly free market across the EU how can the RAC restrict access of an EU citizen to an alternative product available elsewhere in this common market. Surely there isn't country based monopoly in this situation?" Eventually Louise Campbell (customer service) agreed and we got our Carnet! Our travelling companions then emailed Louise and she allowed them to go to the ADAC as well. Oh and then we got a further €100 discount from Germany because we are members of the AA here!!............................................ ...... So, I don't know, there really doesn't seem to be any 'hard and fast' rule here, except that the RAC will make it as hard as possible and the ADAC will not act without permission from the RAC. All in all. a highly unsatisfactory situation ! UB. |
Very interesting UB, you give me some hope to persevere with these despicable people (RAC I mean).
However, in response to my above enquiry sent to Jake Ward, I received the following: Dear Mr Sprague, Thank you for your e-mail. In Section 8.10 of the Carnet Convention (CPD’s for foreign-registered vehicles), it reads; ‘CPD’s must not be issued to foreign registered vehicles, but exclusively to vehicles with license plates of the country of the issuing club. This is a rule set down in the AIT/FIA Guarantee Agreement. However, two exceptions are allowed…’ The second of which relates to yourself; ‘(2) CPDs may be issued to foreign-registered vehicles if written authorization is received from the issuing club in the country where the vehicle is licensed’ Please note, the Carnet Convention does not state that we must give authorisation for another club to issue. As said previously, we do provide authorization in exceptional circumstances, where it makes sense for the Carnet to be issued by the club in question. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. |
I have just sent the following enquiry to the AIT:
Dear Sir / Madam. I am a German National resident in the United Kingdom, looking to obtain a CPD. My vehicle is registered in the UK. I have previously obtained CDP from the ADAC in Germany, for my UK registered vehicle. However, the ADAC have recently advised me that they require the permission of the RAC, the CDP issuing organisation in the UK, to issue my UK registered vehicle with a CDP. The RAC claim that they have exclusive rights to issue a CDP to UK-registered vehicles, and refuse to issue any such authorisation to the ADAC. I find this practice to be contrary to the spirit of free-trade across the EU, and wish to enquire as to whether you think it is correct. Yours sincerely, Daniel Sprague A quick search does not come up with the AIT's Carnet Convention, so if I get a response, it should clear the matter up. If the RAC are correct in what they have quoted, then they have us by the balls. How they can get away with basically forcing people to take an absurdly expensive insurance premium, which is seemingly worth absolutely nothing (as it will not cover customs fees in the event of the relevant vehicle not being re-exported from any country) is quite worrying. |
Danielsprague,
Perhaps you might have more success directing your posts to Louise Cambell, customer service @ the RAC, as she seems to be the person who has been most helpfull to others. I completely agree that the practices of the CDP issuing bodies do appear to completely contradict EU rules regarding freedom of trade. Good luck, UB. |
Thanks UB, I was going to try and trace her address. It makes my blood boil to be so openly ripped off.
To make matters worse, I have just been told by the RAC that they no longer accept ANY amount of deposit, thus forcing us into a very expensive and ultimately useless insurance policy. It's difficult to tell whether the RAC are in cahoots with this R.L.Davidson insurance company (who stand to make a lot of money for doing absolutely nothing), or whether they really are too lazy or incompetent to deal with things like bank guarantees and cash deposits themselves. I fear time is running out though for me, either I bend over and let the RAC do their dirty work, go through the hassle of going to Iran without a carnet (I plat to go twice, so the cost would probably be similar, I'd rather give it to the Iranians however than a damn insurance company), or I skip Iran (talk of guides for foreigners with their own vehicles also makes this attractive, I've been there 4 times previously so would not really be seeing anything new). I'll keep this thread up to date. Cheers Daniel |
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Cheers Kev. |
Any ideas on whether carets are neededin usbekistan, tajik, etc....all the stans except Pakistan. I"m hoping to do a bike journey this summer after buying a bike in Turkey...
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