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RAC Carnet rip off
I have been looking (like lots of others I'm sure) at the UK Carnet multiplication factor.
As far as I can work out, in Egypt the maximum import tax is about 240%. I believe a Swedish Carnet reflects this at 235%. In the UK it is 800%.... FFS why ? As for the other expensive countries, namely: Iran,Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Nepal, which are charged at 500% by the RAC, I have done some research into their import duty rates. The results I have come up with are as follows. (The justification and references are at the bottom). Iran, 100% Pakistan, 120% India, 102% Bangladesh, 87% Nepal, 94%. Now I understand, in the event of a claim, there will be a lot of inflated fees to be paid, but how the extra 400% can be justified is beyond me. It's nice if you can afford to tie up a large chunk of money at the bank and then still afford to actually travel but in reality, it boils down to insurance, namely Lloyds of London through R.L. Davidson (who also indemnify the ADAC in Germany). On top of that is a clause that in the event of a claim, they will of course pay out, but Lloyds are fully entitled to claim back their losses from guess who.... This is what they say.... http://media.rac.co.uk/pdf/rac-private-prop.pdf 3. It must be clearly understood that this insurance guarantee, if taken up, does not relieve you of paying duty should the necessity arise. Lloyd’s Underwriters are entitled under the Indemnity to recover from you the amount paid. Our Guarantee merely enables you to take the vehicle out of Great Britain without having to freeze a lump sum in this country. Makes you wonder what insurance realy is. So why is it so expensive - the multiplier that is ? In Germany a carnet for a ϵ15,000 bike (£12,800) for Egypt is ϵ3000 In the UK it is, for a £12,800 bike, 12k x 8 = £102.4k x 10% = £10,240 of which you get back £5,120 (ϵ6,000) if no claim is made. Basically 4 times as much up front and 2 times as much when finished satisfactorily. The Germans will take you to court for any losses they incur. The Brits (Davidsons) will take your money (as they are an insurance company ) then let Lloyds make their claim to you to recover their losses. Is it worth it ????? or are we better of winging it with the exception of countries that will not let you in at all without a carnet, Kenya for example. As can be seen below many will allow entry at a fraction of the cost. Nepal for example will allow motorcycles in without a carnet for 100 Nepalese Rupees per day, about £0.90 per day for up to 30 days, thereafter £4.50 per day, wheras a carnet will allow up to 6 months in a year. Extorionate madness. Is someone in the upper echelon of the RAC married to a director of Davidsons or Lloyds. This BTW is in no way meant criticize Paul Gowan at the RAC in any way as I understand from many posts that he is an extremely helpful guy but he does not set the rates. Feel free to comment, I realy would love to be completely wrong... ---------------------------------------------------------------- This is the best I can find for the various countries, some from government customs sites, some not. References and relevant data. Iran – 100% Ref Automotive industry in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia IMPORTS Car imports have risen, from $184 million in 2002 to $1.5 billion in 2007.[23] In 2006, the government lowered the automotive import tariff levels to 90 percent for light weight vehicles and since then a huge influx of imported vehicles has been witnessed in the country.[17] The tariff level for import of heavy vehicles is even lower at 20 percent, due to low levels of local production and high demand. Indicative listing of import tariff rates in 2006[35] Item Tariff rate chemical products 10% ordinary metals 10% measurement instruments 10% medical equipment 10% food industry 15% mining raw production 15% leather industry 15% paper and wood fabrics 15% mechanical machinery 15% agricultural raw production 25% electric machinery 25% automotive vehicles 100% Pakistan – 120% Ref: http://www.mofa.gov.pk/Downloads/ImportofVehicles.pdf This is for normal new imports. It is not possible for foreign nationals to improt used. Assessed value is typically 140% of actual value as they include all shipping charges etc as part of the cost. Say vehicle value of 1200 cc bike = £10,000 X 140% = £14000 Add duty £14,000 x 60% = £8,400 Add Sales tax (£14,000 + £8,400) x15% = £3,360 Add Income tax (£14,000 + £8,400 + £3,360) x 0.05% = £13 Add federal duty tax (£14,000 + £8,400) x 1% = £224 Total taxes for a £10,000 bike = £11,997 or 120% of original value Type of veh, Customs Duty, Sales Tax, Tax on Sales Tax, Federal Duty From 1001 CC to 1300 CC, 60.00%, 15.00%, 5.00%, 1.00% India – 102% Ref: http://www.chennaicustoms.gov.in/imports/car.htm There is a sliding scale for used vehicles, 1 year 16%, 2 year, 28% The present rate of duty on import of Car is as below: Total effective duty works out to 101.91%, which includes the following. BREAKUP OF CUSTOMS DUTY ON CAR IMPORT(2000-2001) BASIC CUSTOMS DUTY 35% 10% 16% 24% 0.125% 4% Bangladesh – 87% Ref: BANGLADESH Policies ( Exim Policy ) :: Trade in Bangladesh,Bids in Bangladesh,Tenders in Bangladesh,B2B Business in Bangladesh,Bangladesh Trade Gallery Example: 1300 cc car, C&F value $ 10,000 Insurance (1% or actual) 100 Landing Charge (1%)1 100 Assessable value 10,200 a. customs duty @ 45% $ 4,590 b. supplementary duty @ 10% $ 1,020 c. duty paid value $ 15,810 -VAT at 15% of duty paid value 2,371.50 --advance income tax 2.5% of assessable value $ 255 --license fee 2.5% on assessable value $ 255 --total duties and taxes $ 8,491.50 Our $ 10,000 vehicle's landed cost is therefore $ 18,691.50. Nepal – 94% Ref: http://trade.gov/wcm/groups/internet...debarriers.pdf NEPAL An import license is required. The import duty is levied at around 94 percent on public carriers and around 117 percent on mini-buses (customs duty of 25 percent on public carriers and 40 percent on mini-buses, 32 percent excise duty on the gross of Invoice Value plus Customs Duty, 1.5 percent local development tax on invoice value, 5 percent special tax on invoice value, and 13 percent value added tax (VAT) on the gross of invoice value plus additional duties and taxes). The import duty on other vehicles is around 176 percent (80 percent customs duty, and additional duty and taxes as applicable on mini-buses and public carriers). Ref: Normal Tariff 12. Special provisions relating to import of Vehicles: ………… (2) Vehicles of personal use brought in by tourists under a carnet shall be allowed to stay in Nepal continuously or now and then for a period of 6 months during the span of 12 months (one Year) from the date of the first entry into Nepal without payment of import duty. Vehicles thus imported, if not taken back within six months, shall be ipso facto confiscated. ………….. (3) The temporary importation of vehicles such as motorcars, station wagons, land rovers, jeeps, trucks, tractors, lorries, vans and motorcycles including their trailers except those brought under a carnet shall be charged customs duty as follows: ………….. (b) Import duty shall be levied on vehicles, having no carnet, imported temporarily on the following rates: ………… Motorcycles and Scooter Rs. 100 per diem, (About £0.90/ day– Dec 2010) ………… Vehicles thus imported with the payment of temporary import duty shall not be permitted to stay in Nepal for more than 30 days in a year. ………… (d) Vehicles and means of transport thus imported temporarily must be taken back. Vehicles specified in clause (a), (b) and (c) above may be seized if found to have overstayed from the period declared in the customs declaration form (Pragyapanpatra), ………….. Nevertheless, vehicles may be allowed to be taken back after paying duty for overstayed period at the rate of Rs. 500/- per diem in the case of motorcycle ……………….. |
I agree its a complete rip off.
carnet for UK bike for Egypt 800% of the value Carnet for SA bike for Egypt 200% of the value what annoys me the most is how everyone on the forum says how friendly and helpful the RAC are - well i would rather them be rude but cheap |
Does the vehicle have to get the carnet from the country it's registered in ?
or due to the free trade agreement within the EEC can we shop around within those member states ?? |
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The ADAC seemed cheaper than our AA at that time (handling fees were about the same, but the bond in Finland was 5000 euros, whereas with ADAC it could´ve been around 3000, if I remember the figures correctly - and I estimated bike value at 9000, I think, and 5000 was actually the minimum bond amount in Finland). Maybe I gave up on ADAC too easy back then. f I needed that precious paper again, this time I´d probably try them a bit more persistently. I was left under the impression, that it´s not 100% impossible to get it from another country. |
Just had a browse over the ADAC web site and it does appear possible to use them
Carnet de Passages Englisch http://www.adac.de/_mm/pdf/Carnet%20...isch_18337.pdf It gives a selection of charges implying that you do not have to have a German registered vehicle. On the last page of the pdf applocation form it asks for " certificate of location stamped by your customs authority" I am going to give it a try in the new year a need a carnet for Japan and Iran . Any problems i shall let you know |
As far as I'm aware, you don't need a carnet for Kenya, you just pay a Temporary Impory Permit charge on the border, 25 dollars if I remember right, and then there is a road tax to pay, about the same again for a month.
If you have a carnet, you dont pay the T.I.P |
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KRA - Customs Services Department - Frequently Asked Questions "For foreigners, a carnet de passage has to be obtained. This document is issued by the Automobile Association (AA) office in any country." What the reality is, is anybodys guess. Anyone with recent personal experience ??? |
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Unfortunately their web site is 8 years out date and sucks - big time. If you have any luck, I will be following in your footsteps. Good Luck and Happy New Year EDIT: Reading the attached instructions, it is apparent that you can only use a bank garuantee from a German bank. Not that it makes much difference to pay in cash (as you would need to do if you do not have a German acount), as you cannot do anything with the money anyway. |
Insurance vs Bond?
Here in Canada we have recently been given the option of using the indemnification (insurance) method. The difference in cost compared to just putting up the bond is amazing. As I understand it from Suzanne Danis at the CAA they use the same insurance company as in the UK so the prices are the same. You can try out their handy calculator at:
Carnet de Passages en Douane - Cost Calculator - Canadian Automobile Association | Association canadienne des automobilistes Too bad that the RAC doesn't allow you to simply pay the bond, which is the true import duties rather than using an insurance company's actuarial tables. With the bond you have to put up more money up front but you get 100% of it back, minus the processing fees. For us Egypt was 55% of the value of the bikes, not 800%. I guess the insurance companies must have assessed that the risk of someone selling their bike in Egypt is relatively high. That is, they've been burned in the past. |
Nothing useful to add, of course it's a rip-off. That's what being British is about.
UK >>Insert product / service here<< Rip-Off. Daniel |
This guy, Franconian, tried and failed in July this year (2010).
And he's a German (according to his profile) but would appear not to live there. It doesen't say where he does live though. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...=german+carnet "I just tried to get a carnet from ADAC. Unfortunately this is only possible for German, Netherlands or Denmark registered vehicles. I thought I read here that many people with foreign registered bikes got their carnet from ADAC..." Looks like we (the Brits) are stuck with the extortionists... |
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Anyway, I just did the insurance calculation and you get ripped off about 30% more than we do. I hate to say I but you just made me feel a bit better - sorry. Edit: It is apparent that R.L Davidson have a tight monopoly on this, I wonder if our monopolies commision would be interested ! Or should I just shut up in case they pull out altogether ? The sad truth is that they have no risk whatsoever as Lloyds will chase you for anything they pay out anyway - madness. |
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I just did the calculation for a $20,000 bike to Egypt and using the indemnity option would cost $17,880 up front with a return of $7,440 when you get back for a total cost of $10,400. For putting up the guarantee yourself you pay $11,600 up front (55% of $20,000 plus the processing fee) and get $11,000 back for a total cost of $600. When we rode to Cape Town our highest fee was actually for Tanzania at 100% of the value of the bikes. It's unfortunate that the RAC doesn't allow you simply pay the actual guarantee, not the insurance company's assessed value of 800%. To the best of my knowledge only Canadians and Americans can use the CAA but it can't hurt to send Suzanne a note and ask. |
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Was it actully at the border that you parted with all that money and got it back at the exit point ? Perhaps you could give us the full story with all the little details. I ask, as Intend to go through Tanzania too. Did you go through Kenya too, if so what happened there too. Or perhaps you have scribed this previouly ? Pretty Please Edit: I just found the Tanzania Vehicle import Tax calculation, here http://www.tra.go.tz/documents/Motor...omputation.doc For a 1200cc vehicle under 10 years old: Take the value, add 25% then add 5% then add 18% =1.55 value or 55% tax. |
I've just taken a look at the KRA website, and stand corrected on the carnet issue into Kenya - according to thier information, foreigners temporarily importing a car into the country do indeed need to obtain a carnet - more info here: KRA - Customs Services Department - Frequently Asked Questions
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Purpose of Carnet
Hi,
The purpose of the carnet is to ensure that if you sell your bike in a country that you're travelling through that the customs duties will be paid. That's why the cost of the carnet is equivalent to the highest duties along your journey. If you use the CAA calculator and click on all the countries for a trip along East Africa and across to Cape Town you'll see that Egypt comes up as the highest cost country using the indemnity option and Malawi as the highest with the guarantee option. Kenya is on the list as requiring a carnet but isn't the highest cost so it doesn't figure into the calculation. If you were to parachute into Kenya with your bike you could use the cost calculator to determine that the carnet is 78% of the value of the bike. A month before we left on our trip we applied to the CAA to get the carnet, having already confirmed with them the value of the R100GS and the F650GS. The highest duty was 100% of the value of the bike so for the R100 we wrote a cheque for $5,000 and the F650 a cheque for $6,000. A week later we received the carnets in the mail. When we returned home we had the Canadian customs officers fill in the back of the carnet (basically confirming that we hadn't sold the bikes anywhere) and sent the forms back to the CAA. A week later we received our $11,000 back. Our next trip will be much more expensive as Audrey has a new F650GS and Iran is on the itinerary which will cost 250%. Audrey's carnet alone will be $25,000 with the guarantee option. This would be a good time to use the indemnity option as we would only need to come up with $6,000 up front rather than the full $25,600. I hope that helps a little. |
I tried to get my carnet for my Australian registered bike from another country. This was not possible. I even have an address in Germany and the UK.
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Nice to see a new 1200 Tenere getting dirty! You might want to have a word with Paul and suggest the value of the bike is as it would be at the end of the trip. You know how the value of a bike will plummet when it's been taken out of the showroom then not seen a qualified mechanic for six months hard labour on the dark continent let alone a kosher Yamaha spare part. It worked for my XTR! :thumbup1: Cheers, Ian |
carnet
Hi all,
thank you OGR for composing this, very interesting to read. I knew that the RAC is expensive, but this is madness. I rode an old Tenere around the world from 1999 to 2005 and I used three carnets over the ADAC in Germany (bike had a German numberplate and I have a German passport). I found them expensive (because I am not a member) and sometimes complicated to deal with (which my sister did). I needed three carnets because of Egypt, India, Japan (at that time), Australia and South Africa. In 2009 I started another trip - mainly to the Middle East, Central Asia, China and South America. Swiss numberplate and German passport. I did not buy a carnet, because I would not go to India, Australia, South Africa or Egypt (as far as I know the only countries you can not enter without a carnet) The bike was stolen in Syria and lucky me, I did not have a carnet. So I did not continue thru Saudi, Iran ... The carnet makes things easier at the borders and also cheaper. But look at the madness that OGR describes, you only support it if you buy the carnet. And we are still adventure traveller and not all inclusive package tourists on two wheels, or is adventure only written on your petrol tank? As I learned on the road there is always a way. Sometimes it is very hard and sometimes it is easy. I entered Cuba, after at least fifty people said it is not possible, included Cuban embassy staff. So, dont buy the carnet and just go .... if more an more travellers do this, the carnet system will go away, inschallah. Think outside the box. My 2p worth?c? Greetings from Brazil:Beach: Mika |
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I am affraid i will take you on for this statement. I reside in Pakistan and after visiting the AAP for the carnet, for which I am told a bank guarantee of 350% of the bike. I refuse to believe that all the traffic flowing through the taftan border into and from pakistan have Carnet De Passage with them. You see people are rather poor here and paying 200$ proccessing fee and then a bank guarantee is not possible for many. Infact I know most of the rich and famous of my city who own a big displacement bike, and even they are not willing to show up with the kind of guarantee that is being required by AAP... Anyway, i'll be for the least, visiting the pak-Iran border and attempt to enter IRAN and then come back the same route without a Carnet. At the max, i will fail, but at least I will try. |
Hi
I agree it is expensive for a UK registered vehicle. I don't agree when you suggest its the RAC who set the rates, and are therefore ripping you off. The several conversations I've had with them they could not have been more helpful, bearing in mind they are the UK official supplier so won't be advising on every last thing you can get away with. As a result of those conversations it will cost me less than I thought when i comes time to buy my own Carnet. It was mentioned to me ages ago that many people start out finding a nice new shiny vehicle for their dream trip only to then wish it wasn't so shiny when they find out about the Carnet, and a nice new XT1200Z isn't the cheapest transport! :) If you put up the 800% in a bank account, where you could still be earning a small amount of interest, then you will pay the RAC fee for processing, which I do not think is excessive, and you get back your 800% when the fully stamped up Carnet is returned. So 80% or 800%, the RAC don't keep it. If the RAC suggested insurer is too costly if you as most people don't have such a lump sum, then I'm sure others are available to cover that risk, since ADAC etc must also offer that option with their own insurer? But wether it would be so much cheaper? If there are no others in the UK then why is that? Monopoly? Whats stopping every other insurer cashing in this "rip off"? I would think the % is more to do with the UK relations with the country concerned, or perhaps how frequently people from the UK (or how much of a tax risk a UK citizen is to the visited country concerned) try to sell avoiding local taxes. Buy a cheaper bike, value it as low as poss, pay for the Carnet and a lot of beer with the change! Jason ;) |
Hi all,
Planning a trip with a friend from Budapest to Qatar in a Trabant. I have dual British & Hungarian nationalities, my friend is American. The Trabant has Hungarian plates and is in my name. Been looking around at the options for carnets and, according to the ADAC application form, under the vehicle details you have to specify its 'country of registration'. I assume then this means that they cater for non-German registered cars, perhaps so long as the registered country's Automobile Association don't issue CDPs themselves (Hungary's apparently don't). The guarantee you put down for a vehicle up to the value of 15,000EUR is 1,500EUR and the administration fee is 260EUR for non members or 160EUR for ADAC members (standard memberships is 44EUR per year and comes with a host of other benefits and discounts, too). So, if I have got this right, it seems by far the cheapest option for getting a CDP. 1500EUR guarantee + 44EUR membership + 160EUR admin fee, of which you get back the 1500EUR when you return. Total cost 204 Euros. Am I missing something obvious? |
I asked ADAC about the carnet, and they told me they´d help me only, if I wanted to get to Egypt, otherwise they´d return me to the AA of my country. Was a pain because all prices, including the bond amount, were much steeper in Finland.
But this was almost 4 years ago, so wouldn´t hurt to ask them. |
Carnet
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This is what we pay in Australia for Africa including Egypt. You are being RIPPED OFF big time !
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From the RAC in the UK for my 20 year old landy Carnets I paid £2xx to the RAC for the Carnet renewal and whatever and £75 per year to my bank for a bank guarantee that covers the bond.
Thats all. Surely more of you could go the Bank Guarantee route? Don't value the bike at what you want for it if it is stolen, value it as low as they will accept it. You lose at least 20% driving it off the showroom floor ;-) But anybody trying to Carnet a new bike or vehicle will suffer. Its a high value item. Maybe its also some old fashioned travel karma ;-p |
any more news yet on the RAC rip off merchants yet?
is there nothing we can do in Britain about the RAC dictating there own rulls and costs on the Carnet? surely its illegal and just not fair:confused1: |
Write to the EU to get cheaper carnets?
Dear All,
we need to fill in the following form: EUROPA - E-mail if say at least 30 of us get off our proverbial rear ends and do this, they might prod the R.A.C. with a big heavy stick and and we could get a cheaper carnet! :D. the more people that winge and moan to them the better, also write to your MEP! Remember we get to vote the min or out again soon and this makes them listen, as they get jumpy near election time! may the force be with us all on this one! |
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I've no problem with complaining to the EU via your link above (and probably will) but would we not be better trying to get one of the vehicle lobby groups to take it on? I generally stay as far away from any sort of bureaucracy as I can so I admit I have no idea how a compaint to the EU might work its way back to the RAC but I kind of get the feeling the other end of the wire from any email I send to them isn't a sympathetic ear in the put right small injustices dept but a black hole of infinite depth. Unless you can come up with sufficient mass to change its orbit nothing will happen. |
am afraid the "value it as low as possible " idea doesnt work . The Rac use various guides to figure out its worth , so unless its sub 2k you arent going to get away with it .
Looked at taking my Pan into Iran when id finished Georgia / Armenia - the cost was eyewatering so will give it a miss doh |
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We would need to give evidence of the RAC directly requesting the ADAC to not issue carnets for UK vehicles (I think I have an email from the ADAC which admits this), or other mis-conduct. Surely the FIA / AIT should be the ones to hear it? Otherwise, it's just a case of paying more for the 'pleasure' of living in the UK. For example, the Dutch pay absurd sums for road tax on large-engined vehicles, but I doubt a complaint to the EU over that would get anywhere. |
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Recently sky lost it's case against a pub landlord as she bought her premier league coverage from Grease. This is a similar thing. What ever you do, write to your MEP or EU compatition comission or pressure group. DO SOMETHING otherwise we will royally taken over the barrel time after time! |
Actually, you can get an get a CDP for a UK reg vehicle from the ADAC in Germany, all you need is a letter from the RAC in UK, saying that they have no objection !
Not something they are inclined to do very often, for obvious reasons, but it has been known ! UB.beer |
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The ADAC told me this month that they will no longer issue it to a UK vehicle, even for a German citizen. The RAC also told me this month that they would give permission to the ADAC only in 'exceptional' reasons. Being a German national and ADAC member not being one! Academic anyhow in light of what the ADAC told me. So we are in the clutches of the RAC's racketeering. |
Well, danielsprague, that is curious, because I can tell you for a fact that the ADAC were issuing CDP for UK reg vehicles as recently as Sep 2013, as I know of people who (with a letter of no objection from RAC) got one !
They, too, were initiallt refused and told it was no longer possible, but persisted and were eventually successful. Out of interest, who did you speak to at the RAC that told you this ? UB.beer |
From Mischa Schueller, at the ADAC in Munich, on 06-02-2014, a few hours after sending my mail to them. (I had a string of carnets from them between 2007 and 2010):
Dear Mr. Sprague, thank you for your e-mail. The competence of carnet-issuing does not refer to the nationality of the applicant, but to the country of vehicle-registration. As we had a lot of trouble giving British citizens the recommednation to ask for a non-objection at RAC, there is really no way neither to issue a Carnet de Passages for a UK-registered vehicles nor to give a recommendation to ask at RAC for a "non-objection". It is simply not possible for us to issue a Carnet de Passages for British-registered vehicles. A big Sorry for not being able to serve you with this matter, but that's the way it is handled. Kind regards from Munich, And from a Jake Ward 10-02-2014, RAC Carnets, four days after I sent them an enquiry: Dear Mr Sprague, Apologies for the late response. In line with the Carnet Convention, all CPD guaranteeing and issuing associations of the AIT and FIA are bound by a multilateral Guarantee Agreement which sets down all conditions for the guarantee and issue of Carnets de Passages en Douane. We have made a decision as the issuing club for the UK, and to ensure we are following the guidelines of the agreement that we will now only provide permission for other clubs to issue Carnets on our behalf in exceptional circumstances. An example of an exceptional request could be; an application being part of an overall rally application the other club is issuing Carnets for where it makes sense that they issue all of the Carnets required for the rally. Yours sincerely, Would be very keen to hear if you know a way round this! |
'In line with the Carnet Convention, all CPD guaranteeing and issuing associations of the AIT and FIA are bound by a multilateral Guarantee Agreement which sets down all conditions for the guarantee and issue of Carnets de Passages en Douane.'
...is meaningless waffle, and has no connection to the issue in question. I just decided to respond to Mr Ward at the RAC. I wonder if I will receive a response to the email which I have copied below: Dear Mr Ward. Thank you for your response. Seeing that the RAC makes it several times more expensive to obtain an identical document for the same vehicle when compared with the ADAC, please reassure me as to the legal basis of this situation. Specifically, could you please send me a copy of the Carnet Convention, or at least refer me to the exact location in said Convention, which relates to the national issuing organisation having exclusive rights to issue a CDP to vehicles registered in that country, and / or to any other section which would preclude the ADAC, or any other issuing organisation, from issuing a CDP for a UK registered vehicle. Yours sincerely |
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of members can post what their carnets cost, for what bike and value and where I will try to get it together for a standard mail for us to use in emailing our mep's. Brendan |
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"Good on you" to try; I hope you get a full and prompt reply from RAC. FYI--here are the texts of the Convention to which RAC/ Mr. Ward refers: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...n/impprive.pdf I'm not an international lawyer (nor play one on the telly or internet), but my quick reading of this Convention suggests that there is nothing in the language of the Convention itself which addresses the specific RAC claim/ interpetation of its authority, nor--to the point--the CdP fees RAC charges. My understanding is that the RAC claim is based rather on "accepted practice" among the national auto clubs under their agreement through AIT Carnet de passages en douane (CPDs) | Alliance Internationale de Tourisme (AIT) the international association that implements the Convention; and the RAC is choosing to impose these relatively high CdP fees either a) because its actual business costs may be higher than other countries' auto clubs; or b) simply because they can "get away with it" or both. That's only speculation/ guesswork. BUT--short of getting RAC to open its financial books/ calculations to you to justify its relatively high CdP fees--you MIGHT get some action just by 'shaming' the RAC with actual comparative data on their fees vs. the fees of similar auto clubs like ADAC, TCH (Switzerland), CAA (Canada & US), etc; (and continue to copy to various MEPs, etc) Good luck! :mchappy: |
It seems to me that there is no consistency from the ADAC and that is part of the problem, there are examples on this forum (check the other CDP threads) of the ADAC telling people that they cannot issue CDP for UK vehicles dating back from years ago, however there are also examples of people who have managed to to get an ADAC CDP for a UK vehicle during that time for example.......
davidedgell 18 Aug 2013 I got in contact with ADAC, they replied today (19/8/13) and they told me that they will not issue Carnet's to UK registered vehicles. However, further on in the same thread, we find....................... Terry Harford 4 Sep 2013 Anyway we eventually got our Carnet from ADAC in Germany. They were as courteous and efficient as you would expect but wouldn't move until the RAC agreed. At first the RAC refused so I sent the following email to the head of department Ms Lenthal, "We were very disappointed to receive your decision concerning our application for a carnet and would ask you to reconsider on the following grounds; - The RAC no longer offer the type of Carnet that we require ie a cash deposit carnet, the type that we have had from you for our previous two trips. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly our vehicle is very old and has a low value, your insurer will only insure a minimum of £1750 where as on our last trip (2010) the RAC agreed a value of £1000 for our Land Rover. Secondly we have had two Carnets from the RAC in recent years and met all requirements upon return to Europe. Your insurer does not recognise this and offers no related reduction in costs although we are obviously a lower risk than others that they insure. Thirdly we may well not return to the UK for 13 or 14 months. Your insurer offers no reduction in premium to recognise this shorter period of a month or two for a carnet extension and we could be faced with total costs for insurance that amount to almost twice the value of our vehicle! I'm sure you agree that this is not an acceptable situation and the RAC do not appear to be offering the service that overland travellers require. - You say in your reasons for refusal that "under the terms of the carnet convention the CPD is issued by the issuing club of the country where the vehicle is registered" and yet the ADAC in Germany is perfectly happy to issue us with a Carnet despite the vehicle being registered here in the UK and in fact cited several previous occasions where they have received a "non-objection" letter from E. McLissold at the RAC for some of your other customers. - Finally I find it hard to accept that the cost or raising a Carnet here in the UK can be so different to that in Germany. To buy a Carnet from the RAC I will have to lay out £2029 (for a 1984 car) of which £1050 is refundable. A cost of almost £1000 or £2000 for 13 months. In Germany this would cost me €295 (£245) with a fully refundable deposit of €5000 or £490 for 13 months!! How can this be? Surely the RAC Carnet is not only for wealthy people? If you can not or will not reconsider our application then could you please advise me of our legal rights in this situation? In this supposedly free market across the EU how can the RAC restrict access of an EU citizen to an alternative product available elsewhere in this common market. Surely there isn't country based monopoly in this situation?" Eventually Louise Campbell (customer service) agreed and we got our Carnet! Our travelling companions then emailed Louise and she allowed them to go to the ADAC as well. Oh and then we got a further €100 discount from Germany because we are members of the AA here!!............................................ ...... So, I don't know, there really doesn't seem to be any 'hard and fast' rule here, except that the RAC will make it as hard as possible and the ADAC will not act without permission from the RAC. All in all. a highly unsatisfactory situation ! UB. |
Very interesting UB, you give me some hope to persevere with these despicable people (RAC I mean).
However, in response to my above enquiry sent to Jake Ward, I received the following: Dear Mr Sprague, Thank you for your e-mail. In Section 8.10 of the Carnet Convention (CPD’s for foreign-registered vehicles), it reads; ‘CPD’s must not be issued to foreign registered vehicles, but exclusively to vehicles with license plates of the country of the issuing club. This is a rule set down in the AIT/FIA Guarantee Agreement. However, two exceptions are allowed…’ The second of which relates to yourself; ‘(2) CPDs may be issued to foreign-registered vehicles if written authorization is received from the issuing club in the country where the vehicle is licensed’ Please note, the Carnet Convention does not state that we must give authorisation for another club to issue. As said previously, we do provide authorization in exceptional circumstances, where it makes sense for the Carnet to be issued by the club in question. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. |
I have just sent the following enquiry to the AIT:
Dear Sir / Madam. I am a German National resident in the United Kingdom, looking to obtain a CPD. My vehicle is registered in the UK. I have previously obtained CDP from the ADAC in Germany, for my UK registered vehicle. However, the ADAC have recently advised me that they require the permission of the RAC, the CDP issuing organisation in the UK, to issue my UK registered vehicle with a CDP. The RAC claim that they have exclusive rights to issue a CDP to UK-registered vehicles, and refuse to issue any such authorisation to the ADAC. I find this practice to be contrary to the spirit of free-trade across the EU, and wish to enquire as to whether you think it is correct. Yours sincerely, Daniel Sprague A quick search does not come up with the AIT's Carnet Convention, so if I get a response, it should clear the matter up. If the RAC are correct in what they have quoted, then they have us by the balls. How they can get away with basically forcing people to take an absurdly expensive insurance premium, which is seemingly worth absolutely nothing (as it will not cover customs fees in the event of the relevant vehicle not being re-exported from any country) is quite worrying. |
Danielsprague,
Perhaps you might have more success directing your posts to Louise Cambell, customer service @ the RAC, as she seems to be the person who has been most helpfull to others. I completely agree that the practices of the CDP issuing bodies do appear to completely contradict EU rules regarding freedom of trade. Good luck, UB. |
Thanks UB, I was going to try and trace her address. It makes my blood boil to be so openly ripped off.
To make matters worse, I have just been told by the RAC that they no longer accept ANY amount of deposit, thus forcing us into a very expensive and ultimately useless insurance policy. It's difficult to tell whether the RAC are in cahoots with this R.L.Davidson insurance company (who stand to make a lot of money for doing absolutely nothing), or whether they really are too lazy or incompetent to deal with things like bank guarantees and cash deposits themselves. I fear time is running out though for me, either I bend over and let the RAC do their dirty work, go through the hassle of going to Iran without a carnet (I plat to go twice, so the cost would probably be similar, I'd rather give it to the Iranians however than a damn insurance company), or I skip Iran (talk of guides for foreigners with their own vehicles also makes this attractive, I've been there 4 times previously so would not really be seeing anything new). I'll keep this thread up to date. Cheers Daniel |
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Cheers Kev. |
Any ideas on whether carets are neededin usbekistan, tajik, etc....all the stans except Pakistan. I"m hoping to do a bike journey this summer after buying a bike in Turkey...
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Ah, maybe look at the stickies/ do a search? Only Pakistan. |
Sign the petition!
https://www.change.org/p/european-co...ter-rac-carnet
Try to get as many people as possible to sign this so it can be brought to the attention of the government and monopolies commission. Action needs to be taken to break the RAC's unfair and expensive racket. Cheers |
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