ah, you mean like Lilly, me old tranny

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...psfa9b2a02.jpg

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps295fe108.jpg
This was what I drove over the Alps via Stelvio and then onto the transfag before heading through Ukraine into Belarus, supporting a group of bikers. Got a standing ovation from them at the bottom of the transfag, they didn't realise a tranny van could go that fast, such are the joys of shagged brakes and gravity!!

just thought I'd put this out there, like, ya know:thumbup1:

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2b0ed7f2.jpg

the 70 series is basically divided into 2 versions, the LD, or light duty, commonly called the prado, which has IFS and is more car like, and the HD, which is the heavy duty leaf sprung jobby. In aus, they get a rather delicious V8 diesel version of this.

Apologies this is kind of in the wrong thread, but just answering the above!!

This was the OP's original question in the 1st post

Moggy was answering this and Cleland seems to take offence about anyone saying that they aren't the best thing since sliced bread, It is well known that Moggy prefers to travel in Toyotas, but he has been around enough to have used both, if you've been around on the 4x4 section of the HUBB for 10 years then you would know this. Sending other HUBB members nasty PM's is below the belt :nono: not impressed buddy.

I do not see Moggy's posts as "aggressive" or "sniping" - he is simply answering the OP's question.

Ive been swearing at and skinning my knuckles on Solihulls finest for close to 35 years, anyone who thinks they are the "ultimate" 4x4 has a lot to learn and should probably have their cranial/rectal interface looked at by their GP - it might be a tad close.
I could make a very long list of Defender design faults off the top of my head, then there is the issue of the build quality, don't even get me started.......

Would I drive anything else ? NO.....that probably makes me a fool, but my friends have known that for a long time.....

I think tacr2man sums it up with "and I am not pushing any "ultimate "
manufacturer, mainly as I have yet to come across one .:innocent: "

As Ive mentioned before to the motorcycle guys who visit the 4x4 section ( Im one of them as well)- lots of us here ride bikes, but I have to drive a 4x4 - when we wish to travel with families/pets or do charity work, we end up having to use our "cages" unfortunately.
We can also drive our "cages" into the Sahara with a 1500km range and 100 litres of water - try doing that on a bike without a support truck.

At the end of the day we are all here because we love to travel on 1 or more wheels, the number of wheels and the brand is really immaterial.

Very interesting case for both vehicles here

http://youtu.be/vNcs0dcjyB8

I don't understand how the Defender climbs that initial challenge so much easier than the Landcruiser, is it down to the traction control or do they have limited slip diffs that made it keep going?

straight out of the box, the defender is the better off roader, always has been. Straight from the showroom, the 90 is probably the best off road vehicle you can buy in the sub 3.5ton passenger carrying vehicle class. Off road it's better than a Gwagon, despite it's lack of cross axle difflocks which are standard on the G wagon. Mostly it comes down to articulation, approach, departure and ramp breakover angles. I would say it's even better in standard trim than the 80 series landcruiser, which also had cross axle difflocks in the UK as standard.

My Hilux has traction control and I have to say, the level of mechanical grip astonished me, it really is very good, but I don't think traction control is as good as difflocks front and rear, but for people who don't understand how 4wd and difflocks work (which there are a suprising number of driving around in their 4wds!) it's a good idiot proof solution.

When it comes to off road, and hill ascents/decents in particular, I think the landrover he tested, which presumably has the puma engine, suffers from having what is, fundamentally, a car engine and so lacks good low down torque and engine braking. My experience with the td5 is also that it's an engine that needs to be revved to get the best out of it. It's totally gutless below 2000rpm and useless for towing (in discovery model anyway, which is the only TD5 I have driven). The td5 disco is the most hateful 4x4 I have ever driven!! The 300tdi and 200tdi were, in my opinion, far better and do carry a price premium over the td5 in the UK, especially in the expedition world.

But being the best off road truck is a very different ballgame to being the best expedition truck.

The differences between landrover and landcruiser can be traced right back to the design ethos of their first vehicles. When Maurice Wilkes designed the first landrover, he borrowed parts from the rover P4 parts bin. When Mr Toyota designed the first Landcruiser (ok, I know it wasn't actually a bloke called Mr Toyota!) They went to their bus and truck division for parts. That difference in the fundamental design continued all the way to the 80 series landcruiser (and arguably still exists in the HD 70 series today, I mean, 4.2litre straight six N/A diesel engine FFS!!). When I look at my 60, everything on it is huge, massively over-engineered. The gearbox and engine are from Hino. 4 men will struggle to lift the gearbox/transfer box. As a quick example, If you ever see a 60 (don't know about the 80) have a look at the system of coiled metal springs used to lift the bonnet, they're enormous!

Yes the LC has a centre lock too.
I found when I went offroading when I had my 80 series Landcruiser with friends that had Landrovers that I could get up and over or through anything they could but 80% of the time I'd have to lock the centre+rear when they could get through by locking just the centre.

But why don't LR fit a rear locking diff to their Defender, is there some mechanical restriction that means it isn't possible or they just feel that it isn't required especially now that TC seems to work so well.

I think I might have said earlier in this thread that you never see a Landrover offroad here in UAE but I did actually see one on Friday in the desert a very new looking Defender 90 that was really struggling with the sand dunes, the owner seemed to think that the TC couldn't be turned off. Is that true? To its credit it did manage to make it back to firmer ground without actually getting stuck just progress was slow.

TC is a double edged aid, in the situation described in the video it works well on slow speed cross axle situations. as soon as you get in sand it is a liability, as it is applying the brakes constantly and stopping power being delivered to the wheels, which is not what you need. As standard you cannot turn off TC on Land Rovers unfortunately, but people have managed to make it switchable in Defenders.


In a LR product with terrain response, when you put it into 'sand' mode, it delivers max power with a different throttle map and reduces the effects of TC

There's a few factors in the video, in this particular hill climb, where the TLC gets cross axled it digs itself in and leaves holes, the Defender then takes the same line, it has a slightly longer wheel base (107 v 110) and is about 200 kgs lighter, the slightly longer wheelbase will mean it doesn't dig into exactly the same holes, better, more supple suspension travel means it finds traction better, less weight helps and in this instance the TC works well.

With TC, when you get wheel spin, you ADD throttle, increasing the difference in wheel speed (between wheels on the same axle) and the system activates more, braking the spinning wheel and sending torque through the open diff to the other wheel with traction.

Land Rover are very reluctant to put manually operated front and rear diff locks on their vehicles, mainly due to most people not having a clue about when/how to use them, they prefer using electronically operated aids that are controlled by the vehicles systems and implemented depending on traction levels. On Defenders this is only TC. On Discoveries/Range Rovers etc you can get electronic rear locking diffs, but they are controlled by terrain response and activated automatically when traction levels are low, same as the centre diff lock.

On a Defender the best combination is to have switchable TC and front and rear diff locks, if you need to steer on a climb you can only engage the rear diff lock and let the TC work up front and steer at the same time (obviously having the rear diff lock engaged will mean the vehicle does not want to turn as readily)


or just buy the TLC ;)

I spent 22yrs in the military so have had a lot of experience with LR in all corners of the world, USA, Australia, Bosnia, Belize, NI and Iraq and can say that I have driven them in some very precarious situations, wading, very steep incline and decent, snow, ice, mud, sand, road and track and they never failed to amaze me at what they could do. I have driven the old G3 petrol version with the twin undersea tanks, defenders both the 90 and 110 and also the Wolf (maybe military names) Brilliant,,,,it all ways did what I asked. IMHO if driven correctly for the terrain its unbeatable, i.e high/low ratio, diff locks engaged etc.

Just my 10 bobs worth

Wayne

PS. The only other vehicle that came close to it IMHO is the Pinzgauer, great vehicle http://www.pinzgauer.com

you must have been in a different army to me then, every time we went out a rover came back on the back of a truck:rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl: I like it mate, yeah they did breakdown but they were still great

Wayne

I suppose my favorite vehicle of all time was my stock original 1963 88"2A.
Oh sure she leaked a bit, but she was perhaps the easiest machine I've known to work on. A vehicle engineered to be serviced in the field, actually quite brilliant.
I just wished for the Arctic heaters during Norther New Mexico winters.

I fitted my old FJ 40 stationed in Alaska with an extra school bus heater, and you could ride down the road in a t-shirt when it was -40F.

I would say there are a few reasons, the primary one being the LR's were not designed from the outset with diff locks in mind. They can snap half shafts like carrots with open diff's. In inexperienced hands even LC or G Wagens can suffer damage to their drive train when their diff's are locked and they have far more substantial axles / half shafts. The entire design philosophy is different, Defenders in particular rely on axle articulation, LC and G Wagens still have reasonable articulation but take a look at the anti roll bars, they're massive compared to the LR ones.

Although there are many LR's around with after market diff locks you really need to alter your driving style to make them work effectively and importantly reliably.

Plus software is way cheaper than hardware!

Software will flatter the amateur but can only react to stuff as it's happening. I've seen D4's do some pretty impressive stuff but the human brain, combined with diff locks will always win.

Landrovers are good I like the character they have and they are easy to work on with simple tools anywhere. The dfender/110's have a really useful shape that can be anything that you want.

I'm not a "fan" boy and I think whatever the best vehicle for that person is the best vehicle, the debate is meaningless.

However, living in Australia I'm converted to Toyota and I have had a Prado V6 petrol and a Landcruiser Troopcarrier (75 Diesel). Both are great, they just do what you ask of them in any landscape with the minimum of fuss and breakdowns.
Did 20-000 (km's) in the 'troopy' in 4 months, on the most remote Australian outback tracks, sleeping in the back, carrying all my stuff and only 1 puncture. The 6cyl non-turbo diesal here are regularly known to do a million kilometres with minimal servicing.

Having said that I'm now looking at a Landrover Perentie

Nice. I love a 60 but can I have both