Why travel with a Land Rover
 

Have a quick read of this:

Why Travel with a Land Rover
Why Travel With A Land Rover?! — The Overlanders

What do you reckon? Sums it up fairly well?

What is your experiences of travelling with a Landy?

Stay safe and try not to get lost
Gwyn & Linzi
The Overlanders
The Overlanders
www.facebook.com/theoverlanderspage

Yes, you have written a decent case for the LR which goes beyond the common arguments about the technical aspects.
Your affinity to the oval badge is clearly expressed.

I just returned from a 10 month trip all around Africa with my Defender 110 Tdi. And yes, I had a few break downs, but the "TinTin in Africa" feeling was very strong!
It's all emotion, in the end. Defender drivers greet each other all over the world! That's not the case with other 4x4's.

Cheers,

Gee

Just out of curiosity, how do you guys meet and greet folks who are driving a Discovery, with or without a 200/300tdi engine under the bonnet/hood?

Perhaps I will be blacklisted on some Dutch Land Rover forums for this, but:

in Holland it's only real Land Rovers (that is: Defenders) that greet each other :D

Cheers, and happy travels!

Gee

Thanks!

It is not much different to some motorcyclists then; not that this is a problem.

Hardly Dangerous riders who have the special wave that is delivered only to other HD riders for example. :rofl:

To me there is nothing more frustrating than an unreliable vehicle.
I've never owned a Defender (few of my friends have and love them) but I have owned a few Discoverys both petrol and diesel and didn't really warm to any of them, although I did have a manual TD5 which managed to take quite a beating offroad which impressed me.

But honestly I've never found the appeal of buying a Landy, if they were very cheap then maybe I could see the value in it but for the same money I could buy a Landcruiser that would be without a doubt more reliable (even LR owners would agree with me I'm sure) and it would be more comfortable too.

But each to their own, as long as your overlanding I don't really care what you're doing it in as long as you enjoy it and you take lots of photos and videos to share with the world! :)


EDIT - Your comment on your website "The constant problems with Dougal and especially the unpredicted costs associated with him." sums up why I wouldn't take an old Landy. You fix one thing and then something else breaks almost immediately.

A nice article however I do think that the same could be said about other vehicles. The article could easily cover TLC drivers with changing one little word :D.

IMHO any vehicle with strong owners communities will go out of their way to help each other, I experienced the same with my old ford car and seen similar tales on some of the landcruiser sites

When I'm travelling I wave and any fellow overlanders no matter how they are travelling. Always surprised when it doesn't get acknowledged. I'd also help out anyone in trouble as much as I could

Good read...

I too don't care what people drive. We are all travelling.

My personal choice is Toyota...i have driven many LR's from brand new Defenders to very old ones..to various Discovery's, Freelander's and new Range Rovers..

Not one of them did i like and a lot i hated....but wouldn't life be boring without differences!!!?? Personal taste has nothing to do with the person.

We too wave at all overlanders and i have to say most LR drivers do not wave back....this won't stop us waving at them...:D

Personally I travel to see other cultures and meet local people there, meeting other travellers is secondary, though also nice.

A vehicle needs to be reliable, I am using it to get from A to B, I am not marrying it. Therefore I do not drive a LR.

First a traveller, then a (whatever) driver.

EO

It seems to be a feature of owning a LR Defender that masses of TLC is dispensed on the vehicle, or they are just run into the ground. It's my impression that for the oldish Discoveries, far less of them receive TLC.
This particular LR is no exception to the TLC scenario. It may even be receiving an exceptional level of attention:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...and-land-80275
Along the way the name has changed from Dougal to Kermit; as my daughter would say, it has had a makeover, rather like the TV celebrities get at regular intervals.

EDIT: in view of the two posts that follow this one, I should emphasise that my TLC, as used in this post, definitely = tender loving care!

have to agree , if anyone comes on with a personal vehicle predjudice answer along such lines maybe a bit of deletion by a mod would soon get the idea over and set things up for the future :thumbup1:

The analogy had crossed my mind also, but I decided to stay away from it.

Not only have the LR and LR issues been drawn together but thrown into that "stew" are all of the other threads about other light-weight vehicles that used to be in the forum of the same/similar name: "other vehicle tech" or something like that.
Post number 102 in the link refers:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...t-does-61908-7

It is more than "fairly well".
I have just re-read the article and it is even better for a second time around.

The OP, on second reading, has produced an ode to the LR; a veritable love letter.
After all this is Burn's night!

Maybe, but I don't see it: I can pick up loads of emotion and gushing enthusiasm for LRs from all sorts of directions but LC owners don't seem to do that, not even on Burn's night!
"Technical superiority" enthusiasm is about as far as it goes for LC owners.
Maybe it is just a UK thing?

Its there in many countries especially the UK, US and Australia for the LC's. As I said I've also experienced brand camaraderie with my long term involvement in the ford scene. VW owners help each other out across the planet.

I am a LC owner but only a little prado. On my travels I've noticed I don't get a wave from 80 series drivers (mines not a proper LC:(), LR (its a Toyota), Bikers (its a 4x4) and organised groups from a particular European country. But I do get waves from the majority of people I see :D

PS Its a shame some needed to start the LC/LR debate :nono:

I accept your points, but there is still something perculiarly special, if not unique, about the UK affection for Land Rover Defenders and probably even more so for the earlier series.
Whereas, those other marques just have their enthusiasts, and their clubs, but when you see those landies scattered across some show or camping field it simply, well ----------- it works!

Anyone for a Mitsu Delica or a VW Syncro?

ps I also had a Prado for a short time: stupidly expensive insurance especially as it is a Colorado in all but badge: :offtopic: totally.
Mine was a "big" LWB but still with the small 3 litre lump: no one waved to me either.

Who appointed you as the voice of all land rover owners!

If someone posts extolling the virtues of a particular marque, of course it will generate debate!!

what you omit to recognise is that many landcruiser owners have at some point owned a landrover, the same is not so true the other way round. Once someone has owned a landcruiser, it is rare for them to go back to landrovers (I have known it, but it's rare)

inevitably it ends up as TLC vs landrover because they are the most common marques used in overlanding, and also inevitably if someone starts a post extolling the virtues of one of those marques it will lead to comment from the other side. So long as that remains friendly and not personally insulting, that's a reasonable debate to be had. I could equally extol the virtues of the G wagon, which would deffo be on my list of expedition possibilities, but tends to be a bit pricey for me (probably with good reason)

I've owned many landrovers (defenders, series and even a 101) and driven many many more. I was a landrover fanatic, even got the Tshirt, but when I needed a cheap second hand vehicle to go overlanding in a 3k landrover just wasn't going to cut it with a 3k toyota in terms of reliability. When I got to the stage of being able to afford to get a truck built to my specification I was very very tempted to get myself a landy. Unlike the previous poster who is based in the UAE (I think) in the UK the landy is a far far cheaper to maintain, restore and prep than the landcruiser. The range of equipment and accessories is massive and you could build virtually any model of landie from scratch if you wanted, such is the availability of parts. to do so would have cost much less than rebuilding my landcruiser H60, and a lot easier to find parts for!

BUT, I do have a very strong emotional attachment to my cruiser. Doing it up wasn't the most sensible choice from an expedition point of view, I should have bought a G wagon or 80 series, but I love my cruiser, we have a lot of history together

But, we all have our reasons, and like many of the posters above, I don't really care if you travel by landrover, landcruiser or mini as long as you get out there and enjoy it.

BTW, coming out of Portsmouth on the M275 one night on the way back from a trip I did get a beep and a thumbs up from a range rover classic driverbier

If I'm in my truck, and I see a good honest expedition truck (rather than a new tarted up chequer plated posing machine for going to Tesco), hell yeh, I'll acknowledge them, because I have a respect for people that do this stuff.

Just to throw a spanner in the works of the LR vs Toyota debate, I'd like to say that I also quite like Nissan Patrols....

I think for some people taking an older Defender or a Landy is part of the adventure, it's an additional challenge to the journey.

As i said in my post....I'm not interested in what you drive.

Yes, i have a truck that i prefer having tried many types, but its the stories and the people that interest me...so no LR bashing from me.

Would still like a wave from all overlanders...so if your in an LR, please wave back...bier...:clap:

That could be me; always taking the road less travelled.


No one goes to pubs nowadays; they are all being turned into housing, or night clubs, or bistro dining experiences.
Anyway, there used to be 7 areas of discussion about 4 wheels and now there are ---------------------- exactly the same number, but nowhere specifically for LR and LC.
Certainly the ode written to the LR contained in the OP was placed correctly in my view: non-technical with a related post in the "build" forum.


Now your talking! But no poetry as yet.
I'ver asked questions about Nissans in the technical fora in the past, perhaps a couple of years ago.

this wasn't supposed to turn into a here's my truck .. mines bigger debate.

Like many others have posted. I dont care what you are overlanding in. A unimog, a land cruiser or a G wagon. I have met them all on the road, and every owner becomes attached to them when you live, eat, travel and sleep in one. Each of them have their flaws - unimog too heavy for some roads, g wagons get stuck quite easily, defenders need attention etc

I was trying to put our point over of why we travel in a defender.

Yes we would stop for any overlander who is stuck... BUT i believe the bond between LR owners would make one go totally out of their way to help. This is what I have experienced in the past

Always had a soft spot for Patrols, especially since one pulled my 7.5ton artic unit out of the mud some years ago, damn fine trucks, very landcruiser like in their build quality, and of course the straight 6 in the older ones, but on the older ones also in their propensity to rust unfortunately!! Makes them a rare beast in the UK now

Moderation
 

Gents please tone down the reaction to one another's posts, the forum is here for debate and to gain info, NOT to turn into a bun fight.

Mods don't want to pull members/contributors up for infractions or suspend or even ban those who continue to diss others.

Please take a deep breath and chill out.

Thanks

Chris

Pity the 110 and 90 design didn't keep up with the times. The original agricultural designation remained and while capable some interior design work to address poor seats, uncomfortable driving position and dreadful electrics wouldn't go amiss. Iconic? Absolutely. Great to travel vast distances in? Not really. The fact that it's a nice regular shape doesn't help - folk overload them, make them top-heavy and then wonder why they break.

Spent far to many days using and being abused by one on a ranch (Series 2) and more in the army (Series 3 and Defender) to want to have one again :)

Was so happy when given a Unimog to drive lol

But I understand the attraction. I have no desire for that kind of hobby though ... My desire is to be able to rely on the vehicle, not pray for deliverance. And I know there are countless Landies that give no issues. Except you can't expect to take a mistreated one into the bundu and not have it consume time and money. Pity really.

Haha....The new look site feels like the first day at school..everyone jostling for position and seeing where they fit in..:help smilie:

Kind of normal i think Chris....give it time...give it time...:thumbup1:

A mental picture of a defender is definitely preprogrammed into the British DNA, bit like tea. I pretty much guarantee if you start talking to a Brit about 4x4's they'll have a defender in mind :)

Trust me when you have a passion for a particular vehicle the site of a field full is a magical feeling. I have it with old fords and also with my MINI.

BTW members on a uk Landcruiser forum are currently helping out a stranded member in Chile by shipping parts out

"Except you can't expect to take a mistreated one into the bundu and not have it consume time and money. Pity really."

This would seem to apply to any form of transport ! doh

i expected to see this sniping , as you get it on a lot of other forums that are none make specific, and even some that are . People dont seem to be able to resist having to big up their corner , using very questionable logic in some cases, and limited experience in many , gets rather boring . Maybe a bit of self regulation might not go astray , and I am not pushing any "ultimate "
manufacturer, mainly as I have yet to come across one .:innocent:

Umm - I don't think I was sniping? The design issues are well known - safety issues are also well documented. And other vehicles have the same or similar challenges especially older ones.

But the subject is Land Rover. And unfortunately many people equate the name with capability when that may not be the case. You've got to realise that there are lots of 2nd hand spares in the boonies. For a reason - lots of Land Rovers never left.

And the same is true for other marques.

But this thread is about Land Rovers ...

PS - note I've not made any comparisons to anything else and only noted my joy at swapping a LR for a Unimog in a conflict zone - which most people would be happy about because you can add armour to the 'mog fairly easily :)

I've just re read all the postings on this subject and to be honest, unless your being rather paranoid, I don't really see much sniping going on. The original article was extolling the virtues of a particular marque, and some have replied in support of that, some have disagreed, and the majority of those who have disagreed (many of whom have stated their considerable experience of landrovers) have stated their reasons why. Thats not sniping, that's reasoned debate. Just because someone doesn't agree with your choices doesn't mean they don't have a valid opinion!

Sniping would be something like 'you drive a xxxx WTF, you loser, only a complete idiot with an unfeasibly small penis would drive one of those, you need to drive a xxxx!'

Which I don't see here.

Most people who have made vehicle choices other than land rover have gone onto to explain that they don't particularly object to any marque, just that they made a different choice and why, and tbh, they seem rather more open minded to other peoples choices than some of the owners of the oval marque!!

I love my HJ60 but I'm sure if I posted something extolling it's virtues as an ideal overlander people may disagree, and probably with good reason, I'm not blindly deluded to it's shortcomings. That's fine, the marque is strong enough to take it, the vehicle is good enough to take it, and, I am happy enough with my choice to take it, and more importantly, it doesn't really matter. It suits me at this point in time and I love it. That's enough for me, I don't have to defend my choice any more than that.

Amen!!

I have to agree with Cleland's LAST post here (though Cleland hadn't done well earlier, but neither did others) - the thread IS titled "Why travel with a Land Rover" and is clearly about someone's love affair with Land Rovers - so getting into it with comments about how Toyota's are better is guaranteed to start yet another silly bun fight... "Handbags at ten paces" comes to mind.

And it's all very tiresome, so Toy owners stay on your threads, and Landies stay on yours please! Or you'll end up in the corner...

You'll notice this thread is now in the "Watering Hole" otherwise known as the Overlanders pub, the 4+ wheelers hangout for general conversation etc! :).

I'm not picking a fight with anyone Cleland, that's just you looking for trouble yet again so wind it in. Given that you previously sent me a PM telling me, as a cage driver, to get off this motorcycle forum I'm struggling to understand why your here except to cause trouble.

Actually, I do like landies, thats why I have owned so many of them, I just wouldn't use one for travelling

What's your experience of Landrovers?

Cleland read back through the posts, until your first post in this thread there was no problem and you now seem intent on making trolling posts against Moggy.

Maybe a mod could delete the deliberately antagonistic posts for everyones sake?

A reality check (about LRs)
 

Nice move to the watering hole, so now there are 8 topics within the 4 wheels area of the HUBB.

Yes, the love affair is expressed in a good piece of writing in the OP, but my my how the thread did develop, especially over the last day.
Oh well, the lads and lassies will just have to deal with it.

Rather less poetical is the Glencoyne view of LRs, although he/they have an equal amount of passion about that infernal oval badge.

http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/liveguide.htm

The Land Rover Buyer's Guide - by Glencoyne 4x4 (Thetford)
But, those two articles about owning and living with LR beasts do contain a level of gentle humour and are further examples of good writing.

Yes, this is what is going on here.

Rather strangely, there are now over 600 views of this thread with plenty of replies but just over 100 views, and no replies, to the build thread for the very same vehicle.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...and-land-80275

Still, I do like that poetry about Kermit that is in the OP and I have yet to see anyone else write so well about the alternatives.

TO throw yet another spanner into the works..... I like Mercedes G wagens and have recently bought a 1989 460....


But still have a Td5 110... :thumbup1::thumbup1:

nowt wrong with a G wagon, if Sheppard drives one they must be alright! Would have one myself if the initial cost wasn't so high. The BIG bonus is, unlike Toyota who have been known to just scrap containers full of new parts for old vehicles, Mercedes still have parts for every vehicle they have ever produced. Their loyalty to their old vehicles is amazing.

I don't remember how many landies I have owned, 6 or 7 I think, but have driven many many more, everything from a series 2 to a TD5 disco. Driving a soft top 90 with the roof down is still one of my favourite driving experiences (although as that was the infamous TD motor, living with it wasn't!!)

heres one of mine, my 130 HiCap double cab with American demountable.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4f403dd8.jpg


I still lust after one of these though, but they are going for serious money now.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4e5f3aa5.jpg

Had the chance of buying a preproduction one for about 6k 10 years ago but didn't have anywhere to keep it, DOH!!


This preproduction velar RangeRover was on sale for 86k!!!!!!!

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6d4277c4.jpg

I didn't think a Landcruiser is twice the price of a Land Rover.

So I checked, a new 110 Station Wagon in billy basic spec is apparently 27,620 GBP (I guess 6,000 GBP of that is tax?) where has here I can get a brand new 79 series Landcruiser with the 4.2 diesel for just under 20,000 GBP.

In fact, 27,620 GBP is only a couple of grand away from what I could buy a brand new 200 series 4.0 V6 for.

So no, a Landie isn't twice the price of a Toyota, at least for me it isn't anyway.

Modern Art
 

Continuing the artistic theme of my reply to the OP, the stack of 4 galavanised LR chassis pictured in the build thread, and linked below, is a pure work of art - far better than the rubbish churned out by many of our modern artists.
It, the stack, should be exhibited in a well-visited gallery, such as the Royal Academy summer exhibition or placed on a plinth in Trafalgar square, so that a wider audience can be reached.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...and-land-80275

your not comparing apples with apples.

The Toyota equivalent of a defender is the 70 series unfortunately not available in the uk. The closest LR to the cruiser you listed is the Discovery

Apologies for replying. I'm only here in my (unpaid) role as a mod to have a look around and check if yet another 4x4 bunfight is brewing. A real shame. In the bike section, despite 95% of the HUBB traffic being bike specific (a statistic I just made up... :smartass:), there's much less argey-bargey than that made by the (current) 5%. The users there tend to be well behaved and the only real mod work is to disappear spammers.

There's a feature in the forum software (I believe you go into User Options > Add to Ignore list) for people to be able to hide stuff from specific other users).

If people in the 4x4 section behaved themselves, rather than having sh!te handbags rattling sessions (that make the individual(s) just look ridiculous) every 2 minutes, maybe the 5% could grow to make the hubb the first choice for people interested in 4x4 travel, like it is for biker travellers.

I know this thread is officially meant to be only on the topic of LRs, but as it's the watering hole and no useful content is required, I'll carry on anyway :( :

5 or 6 years ago I borrowed a mate's TLC (1978 BJ75 Troopcarrier 3.4L 4 cylinder diesel with over 350kkm on the clock) for a 6 week 12kkm drive around southern Africa. The car felt a lot like a cage. A very slow cage. One where I was hemmed in and restricted. Driving it bored me to tears (and I had the interesting job = holding the steering wheel). My ex wife and son were close to despair (that could of course have been my company... doh) with nothing to do.

The car was described as "Too stupid to break down": (It didn't).

By contrast, on a bike, you're in the film... (from Zen and the Art of... ?). Unless I'm physically unable to ride a bike, I won't ever use any 4x4 for travelling again.

In summary: If you think I talk bo!!ocks, put me on your ignore list. Sadly I can't do the same to others as I have to trawl the garbage too. That is until I can't be bothered any more and just remove the litterbug.

Just to clarify, Mr Warden (can I call you "The"? :Beach:), this post isn't aimed at you.

PS. A mod is able to read the utterance that people have deleted. Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if people thought carefully about what they wrote, rather than developing keyboard-warrior-ness, prior to realising they're not big after all?

Lol well said. Unfortunately 2 wheel travel isn't always possible where wild animals with big teeth live. And there will always be those who bash other marques be it 4 wheels or two - I've seen BMW GS bikes being seriously dissed on some forums. As long as folk play the ball and not the man, all should be sweetness and light. Unfortunately, homo sapiens just aren't wired that way and so a pi****g contest ensues. Pity really.

Folks tend to use what suits in the long run - and that is often driven by finance. After all, we don't all have millions in the bank (thank goodness - how boring would that be?). What I hope is that people do their own due diligence before spending their dosh - it helps prevent the tears later.

Enjoy your travels - however you get to your destination. Just do it in safety and at least a little comfort ;-)

Exactly, the Defender is in no way comparable to a 150 series or a 200 series Toyota.

Toyota produce the 70 series which is like the Defender in it's basic rugged design. But they don't sell them in Europe, I have seen them in use by military in Europe though.

Fair enough I agree that the 200 series in the UK is a lot of money (65k GBP) but then the closest Discovery to it is only 5,000 quid cheaper and has the 3.0 V6 diesel.

I agree the Defender has it's place in the market though, I'm just obviously not the kind of person they're aiming for.


I do like how at least we got a good discussion going in this forum though!

Well all sorts of vehicles crop up in this LR thread and the Toy continues to be discussed in here, but what makes me go all weak and wobbly at the knees is a Ford Transit van.
:rofl:

ah, you mean like Lilly, me old tranny

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...psfa9b2a02.jpg

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps295fe108.jpg
This was what I drove over the Alps via Stelvio and then onto the transfag before heading through Ukraine into Belarus, supporting a group of bikers. Got a standing ovation from them at the bottom of the transfag, they didn't realise a tranny van could go that fast, such are the joys of shagged brakes and gravity!!

just thought I'd put this out there, like, ya know:thumbup1:

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2b0ed7f2.jpg

the 70 series is basically divided into 2 versions, the LD, or light duty, commonly called the prado, which has IFS and is more car like, and the HD, which is the heavy duty leaf sprung jobby. In aus, they get a rather delicious V8 diesel version of this.

Apologies this is kind of in the wrong thread, but just answering the above!!

This was the OP's original question in the 1st post

Moggy was answering this and Cleland seems to take offence about anyone saying that they aren't the best thing since sliced bread, It is well known that Moggy prefers to travel in Toyotas, but he has been around enough to have used both, if you've been around on the 4x4 section of the HUBB for 10 years then you would know this. Sending other HUBB members nasty PM's is below the belt :nono: not impressed buddy.

I do not see Moggy's posts as "aggressive" or "sniping" - he is simply answering the OP's question.

Ive been swearing at and skinning my knuckles on Solihulls finest for close to 35 years, anyone who thinks they are the "ultimate" 4x4 has a lot to learn and should probably have their cranial/rectal interface looked at by their GP - it might be a tad close.
I could make a very long list of Defender design faults off the top of my head, then there is the issue of the build quality, don't even get me started.......

Would I drive anything else ? NO.....that probably makes me a fool, but my friends have known that for a long time.....

I think tacr2man sums it up with "and I am not pushing any "ultimate "
manufacturer, mainly as I have yet to come across one .:innocent: "

As Ive mentioned before to the motorcycle guys who visit the 4x4 section ( Im one of them as well)- lots of us here ride bikes, but I have to drive a 4x4 - when we wish to travel with families/pets or do charity work, we end up having to use our "cages" unfortunately.
We can also drive our "cages" into the Sahara with a 1500km range and 100 litres of water - try doing that on a bike without a support truck.

At the end of the day we are all here because we love to travel on 1 or more wheels, the number of wheels and the brand is really immaterial.

Very interesting case for both vehicles here

http://youtu.be/vNcs0dcjyB8

I don't understand how the Defender climbs that initial challenge so much easier than the Landcruiser, is it down to the traction control or do they have limited slip diffs that made it keep going?

straight out of the box, the defender is the better off roader, always has been. Straight from the showroom, the 90 is probably the best off road vehicle you can buy in the sub 3.5ton passenger carrying vehicle class. Off road it's better than a Gwagon, despite it's lack of cross axle difflocks which are standard on the G wagon. Mostly it comes down to articulation, approach, departure and ramp breakover angles. I would say it's even better in standard trim than the 80 series landcruiser, which also had cross axle difflocks in the UK as standard.

My Hilux has traction control and I have to say, the level of mechanical grip astonished me, it really is very good, but I don't think traction control is as good as difflocks front and rear, but for people who don't understand how 4wd and difflocks work (which there are a suprising number of driving around in their 4wds!) it's a good idiot proof solution.

When it comes to off road, and hill ascents/decents in particular, I think the landrover he tested, which presumably has the puma engine, suffers from having what is, fundamentally, a car engine and so lacks good low down torque and engine braking. My experience with the td5 is also that it's an engine that needs to be revved to get the best out of it. It's totally gutless below 2000rpm and useless for towing (in discovery model anyway, which is the only TD5 I have driven). The td5 disco is the most hateful 4x4 I have ever driven!! The 300tdi and 200tdi were, in my opinion, far better and do carry a price premium over the td5 in the UK, especially in the expedition world.

But being the best off road truck is a very different ballgame to being the best expedition truck.

The differences between landrover and landcruiser can be traced right back to the design ethos of their first vehicles. When Maurice Wilkes designed the first landrover, he borrowed parts from the rover P4 parts bin. When Mr Toyota designed the first Landcruiser (ok, I know it wasn't actually a bloke called Mr Toyota!) They went to their bus and truck division for parts. That difference in the fundamental design continued all the way to the 80 series landcruiser (and arguably still exists in the HD 70 series today, I mean, 4.2litre straight six N/A diesel engine FFS!!). When I look at my 60, everything on it is huge, massively over-engineered. The gearbox and engine are from Hino. 4 men will struggle to lift the gearbox/transfer box. As a quick example, If you ever see a 60 (don't know about the 80) have a look at the system of coiled metal springs used to lift the bonnet, they're enormous!

Yes the LC has a centre lock too.
I found when I went offroading when I had my 80 series Landcruiser with friends that had Landrovers that I could get up and over or through anything they could but 80% of the time I'd have to lock the centre+rear when they could get through by locking just the centre.

But why don't LR fit a rear locking diff to their Defender, is there some mechanical restriction that means it isn't possible or they just feel that it isn't required especially now that TC seems to work so well.

I think I might have said earlier in this thread that you never see a Landrover offroad here in UAE but I did actually see one on Friday in the desert a very new looking Defender 90 that was really struggling with the sand dunes, the owner seemed to think that the TC couldn't be turned off. Is that true? To its credit it did manage to make it back to firmer ground without actually getting stuck just progress was slow.

TC is a double edged aid, in the situation described in the video it works well on slow speed cross axle situations. as soon as you get in sand it is a liability, as it is applying the brakes constantly and stopping power being delivered to the wheels, which is not what you need. As standard you cannot turn off TC on Land Rovers unfortunately, but people have managed to make it switchable in Defenders.


In a LR product with terrain response, when you put it into 'sand' mode, it delivers max power with a different throttle map and reduces the effects of TC

There's a few factors in the video, in this particular hill climb, where the TLC gets cross axled it digs itself in and leaves holes, the Defender then takes the same line, it has a slightly longer wheel base (107 v 110) and is about 200 kgs lighter, the slightly longer wheelbase will mean it doesn't dig into exactly the same holes, better, more supple suspension travel means it finds traction better, less weight helps and in this instance the TC works well.

With TC, when you get wheel spin, you ADD throttle, increasing the difference in wheel speed (between wheels on the same axle) and the system activates more, braking the spinning wheel and sending torque through the open diff to the other wheel with traction.

Land Rover are very reluctant to put manually operated front and rear diff locks on their vehicles, mainly due to most people not having a clue about when/how to use them, they prefer using electronically operated aids that are controlled by the vehicles systems and implemented depending on traction levels. On Defenders this is only TC. On Discoveries/Range Rovers etc you can get electronic rear locking diffs, but they are controlled by terrain response and activated automatically when traction levels are low, same as the centre diff lock.

On a Defender the best combination is to have switchable TC and front and rear diff locks, if you need to steer on a climb you can only engage the rear diff lock and let the TC work up front and steer at the same time (obviously having the rear diff lock engaged will mean the vehicle does not want to turn as readily)


or just buy the TLC ;)

I spent 22yrs in the military so have had a lot of experience with LR in all corners of the world, USA, Australia, Bosnia, Belize, NI and Iraq and can say that I have driven them in some very precarious situations, wading, very steep incline and decent, snow, ice, mud, sand, road and track and they never failed to amaze me at what they could do. I have driven the old G3 petrol version with the twin undersea tanks, defenders both the 90 and 110 and also the Wolf (maybe military names) Brilliant,,,,it all ways did what I asked. IMHO if driven correctly for the terrain its unbeatable, i.e high/low ratio, diff locks engaged etc.

Just my 10 bobs worth

Wayne

PS. The only other vehicle that came close to it IMHO is the Pinzgauer, great vehicle http://www.pinzgauer.com

you must have been in a different army to me then, every time we went out a rover came back on the back of a truck:rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl: I like it mate, yeah they did breakdown but they were still great

Wayne

I suppose my favorite vehicle of all time was my stock original 1963 88"2A.
Oh sure she leaked a bit, but she was perhaps the easiest machine I've known to work on. A vehicle engineered to be serviced in the field, actually quite brilliant.
I just wished for the Arctic heaters during Norther New Mexico winters.

I fitted my old FJ 40 stationed in Alaska with an extra school bus heater, and you could ride down the road in a t-shirt when it was -40F.

I would say there are a few reasons, the primary one being the LR's were not designed from the outset with diff locks in mind. They can snap half shafts like carrots with open diff's. In inexperienced hands even LC or G Wagens can suffer damage to their drive train when their diff's are locked and they have far more substantial axles / half shafts. The entire design philosophy is different, Defenders in particular rely on axle articulation, LC and G Wagens still have reasonable articulation but take a look at the anti roll bars, they're massive compared to the LR ones.

Although there are many LR's around with after market diff locks you really need to alter your driving style to make them work effectively and importantly reliably.

Plus software is way cheaper than hardware!

Software will flatter the amateur but can only react to stuff as it's happening. I've seen D4's do some pretty impressive stuff but the human brain, combined with diff locks will always win.

Landrovers are good I like the character they have and they are easy to work on with simple tools anywhere. The dfender/110's have a really useful shape that can be anything that you want.

I'm not a "fan" boy and I think whatever the best vehicle for that person is the best vehicle, the debate is meaningless.

However, living in Australia I'm converted to Toyota and I have had a Prado V6 petrol and a Landcruiser Troopcarrier (75 Diesel). Both are great, they just do what you ask of them in any landscape with the minimum of fuss and breakdowns.
Did 20-000 (km's) in the 'troopy' in 4 months, on the most remote Australian outback tracks, sleeping in the back, carrying all my stuff and only 1 puncture. The 6cyl non-turbo diesal here are regularly known to do a million kilometres with minimal servicing.

Having said that I'm now looking at a Landrover Perentie

Nice. I love a 60 but can I have both