buying a (non-enfield) bike in india
 

So I found a lot of information about buying an Enfield on the HUBB, but think for maintenance and ease of repairs going with a small 200cc Honda etc. would make more sense for me. I rode around Vietnam on a 150 step through for about 10 days and loved it. Does anyone have any info about this? Ideally I would want to buy a bike, ride around for 2-3 months and then sell the thing back.

Any pertinent advice would be appreciated.

Matt

Youre better off buying an Enfield - there easier to get repaired and to sell on afterwards. Japanese bikes on the other hand arent as well known by the Inian artisan.

I suspect he wants to buy an Indian made copy of a Japanese bike. I have heard though that spares for these can sometimes be difficult.

Just another 10 miles to go to make 3k for me on my Enfield after a 60 Km poodle about today in the dry but cool late afternoon.

Yes, but on the other hand you are much, much less likely to need the services of local repairmen if you are riding a Japanese bike.

Sorry I can't provide any specific info Matt, other than to say that I did a similar ride last year through China on a local GS125 clone - covered 8,000km in one month, which is really pushing it on Chinese roads.

New bike price was $500, and I sold it for $150 - a fair bit of a price drop but there is no way you could have cheaper reliable motoring for around $10 per day.

Why would you not go for a standard Indian bike? I sold my Yamaha Virago 2 years ago, because repair and spare parts were a continuous headache, and replaced it with a Bajaj Avenger. Done almost 30,000 km with it, and no complaints. Moreover, Bajaj has (at least in Sri Lanka, where I live) an excellent network of accredited repair & service stations. Great bike for just about 1500 USD (the 180cc version). The team-up with Kawasaki seem to have improved quality, and spare parts are available everywhere.

We also have the Bajaj here in Indonesia. I looked on there website and they say they import to around 50 Nations. I am however unable to find a comprehensive list of their dealers/service centers worldwide, anybody know where I can find one?

I have read one story of a Colombian bloke who drove his Bajaj Pulsar 180 Across south America, through Africa, Turkey, Iran and Pakistan finally to arrive at a Bajaj factory in India. They said his only bike problem in the 35,000 miles was a magneto faliure in Turkey which was easily fixed by having one sent over from India then slapped in.

That being said I think they would be a good choice in India (authough maybe easier to get registered in your name in Nepal) as they have sevice centres everywhere in the odd chance that somthing does go wrong.

Personally when I tried the Bajaj Pulsar 200 here I felt it was a bit sluggish (due to the power to weight ratio) but seemed to stick to the road ok and the suspention was nice enough.

Happy riding mate.

I'd go with a Hero Honda was called Unicorn (similar to a CBF150). They have I think 180cc version. Seems they are called Karizmas now, the ZMR version looks cool, not sure about the fairing though! 223cc fuel injected, should be pretty fun.

I had a Chinese made (Sundiro) Honda CBF150 for two years, 25,000 kms one seal on clutch cable ($4), and new rings at 25,000 kms ($20). Good enough reliability for you?

Bajaj Pulsar, available in 150, 180, 200, 220cc, new price range 70,000 to 95,000 Rupes, Bajaj dealers everywhere, even in the smallest towns.

A quick search lead to following sites;

Bajaj Auto: A leading two wheeler manufacturer company in India.

More about the 220cc model
Bajaj New Pulsar 220 DTS-i

And their stunt show " The fastest INDIAN":funmeteryes:
::: Bajaj Pulsar MTV Stunt Mania :::

Regards

I f you have the money for a 200 / 220 ie 60,000 to 80,000R's, then you are in the top end range for an Enfield, like a 2006 plus 500cc. You could even get a new one. An Enfield will carry luggage better than a jap bike, and are more forgiving on rough roads, which you will get everywhere. Performance is not really an issue as you will die if you go fast--- always ride in india at a speed, that if you are shunted off the road, you will remain upright, this may apply less to a local rider, with years of experience on indian roads. That big front wheel on the Enfield tends to ride over pot holes better than a modern bike. Steep front end rake and powerful disk brake, on a bajaj, can get you into alot of trouble, compared to the lazy gait of the Enfield. The Enfield is a lot heavier , but in the 40 to 60kmh range, where alot of riding is done, it soon becomes managable--unless you are very short and very light. A new enfield if properly run in or an as new model will give you 1000's of k's of stress free motoring

redninja,

I've never read such horse-shit! A lightweight bike with a neutral riding position, normal rake and a powerful disk brake can get you into trouble? But a heavy underpowered bike with technology from the 1950's is better?

Well, lighter is better expecially when the roads are bad, or you ar offroadin, or there is no road.

However there are 2 different engines used in enfields as I can tell from their web site,
4 gear right foot operated (older)
5 gear leftt foot operated (newer?) versions.

Is this new 5 speed one more reliable? How long it has been on the market?
I really would appreciate owners real life experience if possible that is.

Regards

The 5 speed gearbox and the lean burn engine are both new (modern technology) components built on new jigs and tooling. They are much better than their older counterparts. Mine is leak free. So far I have only done 3,00 miles and have had nothing untoward happen yet.
They are Very fuel efficient, mine has averaged 94mpg over that 3,00 miles.

Enfields are dogs?
 

The 5 speeds ratios are spread better that the 4. I did 35,000k's on a 1998 500 bullet bought new. I have a 2004 500 at the moment with 28,000k's, both have been reasonable trouble free, but they do require more maintaince and set up to keep them going like this. I have a long-term Enfield friend who has done 70,000k's on a 180 pulsar in the last 2 years. He reckons front-end washouts and lock-ups are more likely on the pulsar, maybe because of ,poor old tech skinny tyres, stronger disk brake, quick steering, and very poor road conditions and hazards, and for touring luggage placement and balance is more critical on the pulsar, than the Enfield, he just carries less weight, his 180 is bullet proof never let him down and just keeps on going. Sure the Enfield is 40's technology but so are the roads, he reckons sometimes he misses the enfield because things happen slower,so he can see the negative things coming easier. Who Knows? Road reports on the newly released(in india) injected, unit construction Enfield have been very good, a worthy mix of modern tech with that old school look and feel.

Hello, Your friend who had ridden Pulsar AFTER Enfield may be had difficulties to adjust quicker acceleration and better brakes. :confused1:

It is good to hear new 5 speed has better performance. Can you specify what you mena with more maintenance? Every 1000km? Every week?

Can you also give some estimates for the prices of new 5 speed versions?

Regards

Burak

Hi there "Nomadb", my pulsar friend is a french national, he has over 20 years riding experience, his daily ride is an 08 ducati Hypermotard 1100s, and has been racing at club level on and off for the last 15 years, his current race bike started life as a 07 suzuki GSXR1000--so 3rd gear power wheelies at 160kmh and braking into a first gear hairpin from 270kmh, is probably second nature to him. Touring in India 90% of his riding is done at 40 to 60kmh. The 5 speed enfield gearbox came on the Indian market around 2002 i think, and is more common than the 4 speed now, price is much the same. The problem alot of people found with the 4 speed box was, in the 40 to 60kmh speed range, you were not going quite fast enough to pull top gear whilst in 3rd it was reving a bit to high. The 5 speed solved that by a better spread of ratios. The Enfield was originally a 350cc and it is often said the 350 matched the 4 speed box better than the 500cc. Most Indians ride Enfields by short shifting to top gear as quickly as possibly, and just cruising, using the bottom end torque of the motor rather than the revs, which is the nature of a single cylinder 4 stroke motor, heaps better fuel consumption as well.

Dear Redninja,
Thank you very much for the information. Interesting to hear about your friends experience level.

The best way would have been, to go to India and test both bikes for about a week and decide.

I guess with limited time and this is not possible hence we have to rely on opinions.

I will try to see leads to companies/agencies/ or people who sell or rent bikes around Delhi.

Regards.

I did ~ 3500Ks on a 500 machismo and had virtually no issues. My front brake pads were depleted within a couple days of my start but that was more my fault for not inspecting the pads when I picked up the bike. And there were no brake pads to be had in the Himalayas so I did the entire trip with no front brake.

Still, I would have no qualms with renting another Enfield, and they look cool too.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/656739198_XMvvv-L.jpg

Redninja, there isn't anything wrong with Enfields. If you like old style bikes and the technology goes with them that's fine, enjoy. But quit with theory that they are absolutely the best bikes since sliced bread, they aren't, but they do have some serious plus points like some real soul.

The fact that Pulsars might be a bit weird on the front end probably has much more to do with rock hard dodgy Indian tires. I've found that tires are really and absolutely essential ingredient in developing countries as many commuters in developing countries want cheap tires with long life durability and puncture resistance. However these tires can be really dangerous in the hands of someone who is used to riding bikes in western countries or is riding hard, particularly when the road temperature drops or with rain or other contaminants on the surface of the road.

I've been riding in developing countries all over Asia, including Thailand, Indo and India but mostly China for over ten years and I've owned plenty of bikes, and rented even more. I'd say for the average rider a bike under 150KG with modern technology is really the safest option. If you are more experienced and willing to go slowly and have a soulful ride then an Enfield is a good choice. However if handling and pushing on on the emptier roads when you find them is what you like then a modern Japanese designed fuel injected single really is ideal.

Some people gotta ride a Harley in the USA, a BMW in Germany, a Triumph Bonneville in Britain, a Ural in Russia a Chang Jiang in China. Some of the bikes are good, some aren't that modern either. But for me bikes with old technology kill some of my enjoyment of the ride, and replace it with a feeling and an image and a badge.

What old technology with current build Enfields scares you?
Wheels perhaps, they have been around (pun intended) for a long time, perhaps digital square ones will work better ?
Chains. those have been around for 150 years or so... perhaps you ought to have a shaft drive? No, that has been in use since ancient Greeks.
Spark plugs? they have been around for over a hundred years so perhaps bikes that use them are old technology.
Nuts, bolts and screw threads? again 2,000 year old technology, maybe only bikes with Tig welded together engines are up to the task ?
Take this as a light hearted scribble :)

This may be a little off-topic, sorry for that... but I took part on a group tour with 350 Enfields in South India in 2004. We had an Indian mechanic ride with us. And later on, in 2007, I rode through the country 2-up with my girlfriend, coming from Europe with my V-Strom 650.

This later trip, a lot of people kept saying, that Enfield is ´the right way´ to do it, but I don´t think they had had the chance to compare both these bikes. If they had, I think most of them would´ve kept their mouth shut. They are two very different worlds - two different eras - and when loaded up with 2 people, and luggage for a 6-month trip, the difference became even more crystal clear.

Surely a 180 or 220cc Indian-manufactured Jap bike will not offer as much power or carrying capacity. But its still thoroughly more modern technology, requiring less maintenance. And its lighter, which can be an advantage in many situations. These normally go for 5-6000kms between oil changes, and unless you do something stupid, usually you do not need to touch them at all during these intervals (except refuel and ride). We never needed to fix a single thing on our V-Strom in India, or anywhere else for that matter, on our 6-month, +30.000km trip. Only keep changing the oil, filters, plugs, brake pads, etc.

Most Enfields´ (except the very newest ones) technology dates back to the 50´s or 60´s, an era, when machines simply required more mechanic skills from the rider, to keep them running. Nothing to be scared of, but that´s just the way it is.

It´s true that Enfields can be fixed all over India, but these smaller Jap bikes aren´t so complicated either. Asia is full of small japanese 4-stroke engines (or their copies). And their strong point is they seldom need any fixing, unless you crash, for example.

I do like the Enfields - a lot actually - and if I sometimes go for a vacation in India again, I´ll have nothing against renting one there, for example. They are fun in their own way, when it´s fine to go slow, and just enjoy the views (also plenty of reasons not to even try to go very fast anywhere in India!) But there are reasons, why they are sometimes called "time machines"... I think its just naive to claim their technology would be fully on par with their competitors.

One thing that confuses here I think, is the fact that people have very different levels of technical skill. So if a machine often needs a little attention, (and you don´t have a mechanic riding in your group, or perhaps you´re riding all alone), whether this really becomes a problem or not, depends greatly on your own ability to fix it, and this may vary a lot.

Just my 0.02 cents, and I probably do not know everything about riding in India, so everyone is free to disagree.

Clearly I did not explain my point well. Why do you HAVE to compare a 1949 Enfield with a modern Jap bike. I am sure if you were to compare a 1949 Jap bike with the latest Enfield it would not fare so badly.
My original proposition was that Current build Enfields are on a par with any other bike. Where is the technology from which you have to run.

It's a bit like me writing off Harleys as old technology because I don't like side valve engines. I can't even think of any Jap bikes from 1949.

To be fair you have to compare what is running off the production lines now from both manufacturers and not compare a 60 year old model from one and a new one from the other.

I was referring to the 2nd hand bikes, that are usually at least a few years old, as these are the ones a regular tourist is most likely to encounter, if looking to buy or rent a bike in India. I´m not talking about a 1949 Enfield, I´m talking about the technology, that is currently in circulation.

And I haven´t tried the new fuel-injected Enfield, so I cannot be 100% sure, but I doubt it will be thoroughly modern. Everyone needs injection now, to meet the newest emission standards, otherwise they´d still use carburetors. Fuel delivery system is still just one small, even though important part of an engine, let alone the whole motorcycle.

oldbmw,

I'm sorry but the Enfields compare poorly to Indian made Japanese bikes.

For example a 2009 350 bullet weighs 168KG dry and probably nearer 180KG wet. Yet it only puts out 13KW. Yet a Karizma is 150KG wet, almost the same power at 12KW, yet the Jap bike is 30KG lighter. The 500 is a little more powerful at 16KW, and weighs about the same as the 350.

Most of the time in developing countries it is essential to be able to take sudden avoiding action, due to children, animals and so on the road. This is much easier and safer to do on a lighter bike.

Logically the Jap bikes are better, but riding isn't always about logic, it's about passion too.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to ride one of the cafe racer style Enfield 500s, they look beautiful, I'd ride one happily all day.

Get an Enfield 500 and a Karizma, put them on a small race track or on a large karting circuit, ride both the bikes until you are going as fast as you can and get your knee down both bikes. Time the laps. You will notice that the Karizma is faster and also more fun to ride.

It all comes down to weather your passion is riding the bike or the bike, nothing wrong with liking either, but my passion is riding.

Thanks :)

The enfield is not about power to weight ratios, although it is easy to alleviate. Just by Changing the air filter, carb and exhaust pipe ( pipe only not silencer) will increase power by 40% They are optimised for MPG, and mine has returned an average of 94mpg over the last 3000 miles.
On your basis, the london taxi cab drivers ought to ditch their taxis and use ferraris or lambourghinis as they have higher power to weight ratios and are faster on a race track. Sadly I suspect most would fail to earn a satisfactory living. Maybe the reason there are so many OLD Enfields is because they are maintainable and remain economic to repair. Since changing from My BMW which had double the power of my Enfield (and a third heavier) I have found very little difference in daily riding distances. The miles per day are about the same. Next year I will have more information on that if all goes according to plan.

Hello, earth calling oldBMW!

A Karizma is a 220cc fuel injected single. Please do not use fuel economy argument, the Enfield will lose every tiime.

I've ridden an Enfield 500 admittedly it was over 10 years ago, all over India. I enjoyed it, but I have recently owned a bike similar to a Karizma, I can tell you that it is more fun to ride. Have you ridden both bikes or do you stick stubbornly to old technology, putting down new technology, and never trying it?

Misery Goat, Ahem? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Oh, the photos speak louder than words? Is this presuming that I haven't already ridden in the Himalayas on an Enfield or something?

You never find cyclists clinging on conservatively to old technology;

We rode around India on these http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:O...e_For_Boys.jpgbecause it seemed right, because this is what we think about, when we think of an idealized cliche version of a bicycle in India.

We could have ridden on this:http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:M...2-elite9-8.jpg...which other people tell us is much more suitable. But we won't listen, ever or even ride on one to ever be able to tell the difference!

You are right, a modern fuel injected 200cc bike may well give more mpg than a 500cc Enfield. But then so would a 1950's 200cc Triumph tiger cub. So no progress there :)
However I am not aware of any current 500cc bike having better mpg than the Enfield, maybe you know better :)
But you cant have both high HP and low fuel consumption. The New Enfields were optimised for mpg, not mph. I just pointed out that this was easily reversable. However their miles per day is about the same for me. I think miles per week is higher for the Enfield, but I wont know for sure until next year. Partly because I dont have to stop for fuel so often, partly because I find it more comfy than my BMW. YMMV.

I do think you should try riding a newer bike than something from 10 years or so ago before you can really compare it to anything else.

This is the trouble, we keep getting people saying I rode a 1955 Enfield that was a hire bike in India for 30 years and it is not as good as a new jap/german bike. We need more up to date information... I could just as easily write off ford cars because of their old technology using sidevalve engines and 3 speed gearboxes. I have driven such things when they were new. (Most Brit cars at that time had overhead valves and 4 speed gearboxes).

Oldbmw,

Maybe an Enfield 500 is very economical because it is restricted, maybe it isn't, I think that they have just been tuned for torque and there is nothing missing from the engine power at all. Maybe Enfields have improved massively in ten years, maybe not so much. Maybe many foreigners end up renting old bikes anyway. These are side arguments.

The basic facts are that the Enfields are much heavier bikes than the Jap bike competition. This makes them less safe for new riders, many of whom rent bikes with no previous experience or license, and by the same way less usable for experienced riders that want to have fun. With cheap suspension, brakes and tires this is a profound difference, especially with the need to be able to suddenly avoid things in India.

Of course with the extra torque from an Enfield 500 they are obviously better for touring than the Jap bikes, although there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't try touring on a Jap bike if you were willing to travel light.

i will add this. i am now in bali, indonesia on a brand new yamaha vixion 150cc, front disc, fuel injection and there is no way i would want to have this bike for a trip in india.
too flimsy. the wheels too small. i go over a small hole in the road and it feels like a railroad track. my enfield would go over it without notice. there is no place to tie luggage. few spots even to weld to. and most westerners going thru india do carry a larger load than locals. the enfield is 100 times better suited for that.
as to the point of needing to stop quickly. on an enfield, you are not going too fast to begin with so you can spot trouble sooner and brake accordingly.
my friend used his honda kharizma 220 and loved it. on the few patches of open road he cut my time in half. i really cant imagine going 120kph+ on most indian roads!
to each their own. to call an enfield, in so many words, terrible in comparison to a modern jap-type bike is unjustified in my opinion.
like you say, its all about the ride. and we all have our own ideas of that.

Mitchell,

You really want to reignite this thread?

Why do so many Enfield lovers think that suggesting that Enfields are not the best bikes in India is the same as saying they are rubbish? It's not what I'm saying. In many situations and for some purposes they are not the best bikes, but in many situations they are.

Suggesting going 120kmh was never the purpose of me suggesting owning or renting a Karizma.

Did I ever call Enfields terrible? No
Worse handling? Yes
Slower braking? Yes
Older technology? Yes
Heavier? Yes
Better suited for touring? Yes/possibly
Less fun on a twisty road? Yes
Worse for new riders? Yes

Did you actually read my post where I admitted that an Enfield 500 Bullet was probably better for touring because it has more torque and ability to carry luggage? I'd also rather be on an Enfield on a bumpy boring straight Indian main road. But a twisty mountain road? Sorry, a Karizma every time.

Also many Enfields in India are very old and held together with pieces of wire and prayers to Lord Shiva! Many others are actually 350s wearing 500 badges.

Touring aside, foreigners that rent bikes (who are the massive majority of foreign riders in India) in places like Goa to ride locally would mostly be better off with a Karizma than an Enfield.

not intended to ignite anything!
and of course youre right about the goa day tripper types.
maybe i just enjoy going slowly. also, the enfield is the only bike i have ever owned. so that taints my perspective.
sorry to have riled you up...

It's OK, no stress. :cool4:

It's pretty normal, most motorcyclists believe their bike to be the best machine ever or really hate it, if it's been causing them problems. Only a few can seem to sit objectively in the middle and see both sides.

So many people want to form cliques and clubs around motorcycle badges, or can never be persuaded that alternative bikes are worthy or their own bikes have some issues.

non enfield
 

Hi Matt,

Like you, i heard Enfields break quite a lot and i am looking at other options. i will be living in Pokhara, Nepal from Jul 2010 onwards and am looking to buy something in country. just wondering where you got to with your non-Enfield purchase and if you have any advice.

Thanks

Mark

Enfield in Nepal
 

Hi there,

i was interested by your words. I will be arriving in Pokhara, Nepal in July for a job which will last about a year. i'd like to get a bike asap when i arrive and the obvious thing is a Bullet. i'm interested in understanding what other options there may be. Any advice on that or on buying and riding an Enfield would be greatly appreciated.

Whereabouts have you notched up your 3k?

Cheers

Mark

900 miles was in pouring rain on a trip back to the UK, mostly on motorway type roads. The rest just exploring the local French countryside in hot dry weather, although I did get caught two or three weeks ago in a thunderstorm :(
The recent cold weather makes it run virtually silently and turbine smooth, so I think it will enjoy next years (oops this year now) planned trip to the Alps.