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Can someone please answer this...
This does belong here as it will form the basis of my and hopefully others decision of where to start looking for the right bike.
The eternal "which bike" question is always going to be a favourite debate but I personally need to move it back a stage i.e.. what amount of off road (or diabolical road) do you encounter when looping the world and yes I already know you can stick to tarmac or go full mudfest but what do people generally wish they'd set off on after they've got back (it does always seem to be lighter/smaller). I've read and fully grasped the "less is more" theory and "no one ever wished they had a heavier bike" so that mantra DOESN'T need repeating but if you get your 690 all tricked up to then spend 90% of the time wearing out soft knobbies on rough roads that a weestrom could cope with then that doesn't sound like fun either. So my question is on a typical RTW trip where you plan route not road, what percentage is going to be 1/paved road 2/dirt road 3/rutted tracks. My thinking so far is... BMW X Challenge. However, I have to buy/import from Germany then spend a fortune on suspension and fuel tanks so although best result on paper, it's too much prep and expense BMW Sertao. However, small tank and weighty bike which may have can bus apollo 13 electrical system DR650. However, I need to go shopping all the way to Australia for that one XTZ Teneré. However, much as i like these I keep reading of under power/over weight too tall etc. KTM 690. However, if the road is smooth then you have all the discomfort of a dirt bike on tarmac and the price..!! CCM 450. However, totally unknown quantity with race engine innards so maybe unreliable (although I hope they get this bike sorted for being brave enough to think outside the new default 220+kg adventure box) I am a fifty something 185lb/85kg/13.5 st. who is probably searching for the two wheeled holy grail Edit: I have discounted the juggernaut 1200s straight away as I found even my F800 too much of a handful on dirt tracks and equally I can't realistically see a 250 or the new C90 craze suiting me. |
Al,
Looks to me like you've got things well in hand. bier You've thought it out, done your homework. The ON Road-OFF Road conundrum is hard to generalize about and is really up to individual rider and their likes/dislikes. I grew up on dirt bikes, so am fairly comfortable off road. But even I am terrified taking a heavy beast into nasty conditions. Been there ... it's no fun. If you haven't done much off road ... I can tell you one thing ... ITS FUN!!! and once you get better at it (not hard really) it's totally 100% addicting! :scooter: But doing it on a reasonably light bike is essential, IMO. I agree, the 650 range is about right. You're on the right track with "Light Is Right". I'm a DR650 guy but have been through all sorts of bikes from 125's, 250's, 1000's. The 650cc range works for me for travel. It's a compromise but does the most things ... the best ... for me! The DR650 is one of the lightest 650's and is just SO STONE RELIABLE, it's to hard to believe. With a few good mods it's an awesome travel bike. If you can start your trip in USA then you can find very inexpensive DR650's, many already fitted with nice aftermarket items. Many do this, I've got two HUBB guys coming here now to buy bikes and head South into S. America. A few examples after 3 minute search: Suzuki DR650 The above, bit pricey, but already fitted with SEAT (a must), big Acerbis tank (a must) and racks ... and more. (that's over $1200 usd in extras) 2007 Suzuki DR650 2004 DR650SE DR650 above is low price for low mile example, but few extras 2,600 Miles! 2007 Suzuki DR650SE I found the above DR650's all in San Francisco Bay area in 3 minutes Craig's list search. These bikes come and go quickly. Lots around here, in L.A. and in Arizona too. NOW is a good time to buy. Prices are a bit high but lots of choices of the best bikes. Remember, our riding season is YEAR ROUND. Good luck! bier |
I'm not a great fan of off road. I'll do it if I have to and I've done enough to know that I can cope with most conditions but it's not something I'll seek out unless it's the only way to get to where I want to go. I don't enjoy it as much as endure it. Good luck to those who do enjoy it and if they form some kind of higher level of overlanding life, well, that's the way it is.
That approach to things has played a big part in the bikes I've chosen to ride over the years. If most of my mileage is going to be tarmac then a small dirt orientated bike isn't going to be a sensible choice. However, for me, the difficulties of a big road bike on dirt are greater than a small dirt bike on road. I'm likely to injure myself when the former goes wrong as opposed to just geting bored with the latter. Safety is the number one priority on a long trip. Touch wood, other than bruises, sprains and a few cuts I've never had a serious injury in 40+yrs of bike trips. One of the things I've noticed is that bikes have got bigger in that time - a lot bigger. I used to think stuff like Ted Simon's Triumph was massively overweight for going off tarmac but by current stds something like that with decent suspension would look custom made for the job (reliability to one side). I ought to post up a picture of the large (for the time) road bike I toured (and went off road on) in 1974 next to either of the two 600 single trail bikes I'm using in 2014. The older bike looks like a toy next to the other two yet they are the ones with off road pretentions. They only look svelte and dirt ready compared to the even more overpowered and overweight (touring) road bikes that litter the showrooms these days. So, which one from your list? I've only ridden a couple of them but to my eye they're all too big and too heavy and become even more so when loaded up with the boxes and bags that form an overlanders life. Fine for tarmac use but a struggle and possibly dangerous struggle in the dirt (unless you're a lot more skillful than me - not very hard I admit). The CCM may be a possible exception but as you say that's yet to prove itself. Something like a low tech version of the CCM with less suspension travel - if I'm only doing the occasional bit of off road I don't need a foot of travel. I'll happily take a lower seat height in place of some of it. If you're over 6' that bit might not apply. There's more to a long trip than the bike and for me something that faded into the background after a week or so would be perfect. I don't think it's a coincidence that bikes like the DRZ400 have been used for many long trips with substantial amounts of off road but of course they're rapidly becoming history now with nothing really taking their place. |
Maybe include the WR250R in your search if you're concerned about riding sandy stretches and other off road fun. Like Molly said. It is fun and addictive. Hard to find in some places of the world so when you encounter it on your trip and didn't bring the right tool you might feel robbed by your own decisions.
It handles as good on the road as my BMW Dakar did and smoother too. Might have to down shift on the climbs. No comparison on the dirt. Just plain fun. I needed a lot of convincing to go to a 2dirty but glad I looked at it. |
G'day Alan,
It's been my experience that the on/off road question becomes harder that older you are. I'm 55 now and I wish that I had learned to ride on dirt when I was much younger. The reality of the consequences and no fear attitude of youth helps. My first trip was Singapore to UK and for that I used the 1200. No regrets and the route was 95% tarmac. No problems. The second was from TDF to Alaska and I'd say 80% tarmac with Routa 40 Copper Canyon and the Dalton Highway being the "off road" parts, again with the 1200 and no regrets. This year was UK to Magadan through Mongolia and the ROB. This year I used the 660 Tenere and for me it was too tall (if you are 6ft tall you will have no problem) but not under powered. The route was about 60% tarmac 40% dirt this time. I have always found the the extra power and nice suspension to be a bonus when you are on the tarmac, and depending where you feel comfortable going that will be probably most of the time unless you are one of the die hard "off roaders" that like you write about how daring and hard the adventures can get. I've now found my limits and don't mind admitting it. Like moloydog says you've done the hard part, you know the bikes and their limitations. There is no perfect bike. Now you have to work out where you want to go and the route you want to take, then buy the bike or bikes?? Chris |
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I'm looking for a cheap trials bike to do some off road/balance learning and I had intended on starting my "adventure" travelling by going into Africa but a trip to the states then down is on the cards also as I long to see South America. If the DR wins the mind race then that option is definitely a possibility I hadn't considered. |
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I also agree about bikes growing faster than my waistband. I recall the monstrously big and powerful XT500 when it was launched. Who would want an off road/road bike THAT big I thought!? Then last week I read with a smile of disbelief about the 1300cc 180HP "adventure bike" that KTM announced. Who said the Austrians don't have a sense of humour!! |
Cheap
Simple Reliable Easy to maintain For me, they are what you need in a long distance, cross continental , 3rd world travel bike. You can't have it all. You will have to compromise somewhere. XT600E NX650 Dominator DR650SE (You see them in the UK now and again) XR650L (Bit tall though) XT660R (Shorter and cheaper version of Tenere) |
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I appreciate and agree with what you say but for me I imagine I would be frustrated with the lack of torque that a 250 has and would find the pace frustrating. I could be wrong however as I am still thinking Euro touring...? |
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It seems that most folk with regrets would have chosen a slower lighter bike but they tend to be the later 1000cc+ guys Back to the bikes you suggest. I would be looking for something newer with only one or two owners and is the XT'R much lighter than the Ten? as the latter appears to comes off the shelf ready to go |
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Those engineers are amazing. It's a cylinder from an R1 with bit and pieces borrowed from other bikes R&D. It's not for 4 lane motorway obviously. You're you exposed for that. So getting out of Europe you'll probably think WTF. Wrong bike. But on the dirt and even on country roads it's a lot of fun. Smoother at 120kph than the BM Dakar and it's happy to do it and a little more. Blew my DRZ-E out of the water which Ted took on one of his trips which i was planning to do well. Got rid of both bigger bikes. The gearing is better for road compared to the Suzi so you won't notice the power difference. The Suzuki has a good power to weight ratio for RTW but the gearing let's it down. Technology moved on too. With the WRR You'll just have to down shift at HWY speeds when the road start to climb. To me this gives a sporty ride rather than a cruisy ride. I'd suggest take it for a test ride with an open mind and possibly back to back with something bigger and imagine the unpredictable gravel or potholed roads. Go lightweight in luggage and let the opportunities come to you. It's a great feeling standing at an intersection and not having to debate if it's a good idea. |
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329337
You can read about the Yamaha WR250R on above thread on ADV Rider. Few talk about it here except TMotten. 40K posts there, lots of info. I've read most of it ... but lost interest in the bike .... :helpsmilie: Did a short 20 minute test ride, ON and OFF road. Impressive. Not sure the WR is the "perfect" RTW travel bike for everyone, but it's damn GOOD ... both ON and OFF road. But, I've read of surprising reliability issues in above ADV thread. Unusual for Yamaha. But mostly all good reports. One would have to pack really light on ANY 250. I owned a WR250F (race bike) until recently, owned several 250's in the past. My Fav was former XR250R. Amazing bike, didn't travel RTW on it but did some long-ish rides. No doubt, once off road in bad conditions a 250 would be a holiday compared to even a well set up 650. Much easier riding. But realistically, how much true off road nasties will you go looking for? Most travelers take a "road" somewhere, not a trail. A well set up 650 can handle most roads. Mud and Sand? Advantage 250. :mchappy: The WR-R is a tiny bike, fit me perfect (at 5'7"). The owner I borrowed it from is 6'2", he looked funny on the thing ... "Like A Monkey Humping A Football" :Beach: And what will happen to it's "light, nimble handling" once loaded up for RTW riding? My guess is it will go to Hell unless very carefully modified. (suspension? stabilizer? braced sub frame?) 250 class bikes (WR-R may be the BEST out there) have advantages beyond riding off road: Positives: 1. Great fuel economy/Range (bigger tank needed on WR-R) 2. Great in congested cities, filtering, curb jumping, riding down sidewalk, easy parking and getting into Hostels/Hotels. 3. Relatively easy maintenance, long intervals. 250's have LONG service life on Chains, Sprockets, Tires. (This is BIG for a traveler IMO :thumbup1:) 4. Easy and FUN to ride off road. Easy(er) to pick up. Negatives: 1. May feel "strained" at speeds over 60 mph, weak in mountains. Lack of power/torque riding over 2000 meters. (In S. America, riders often go to 4K meters, stay there ALL DAY) All bikes lose power up high, a 250 is badly affected by this. 2. Limited load carrying ability, possible broken sub frame or frame if overloaded or if luggage packed improperly and ridden HARD off road. 3. Very small bike, not Large Rider friendly, less leg room, narrow seat, suspension would need upgrading for heavy rider with gear. 4. Not 100% bullet proof over long distance (WR250R). Quite a few negative reports on BIG ADV Rider WR-R thread. But about 80% of posts there are cheer leaders for the WR-R. (as expected) 5. F.I.: Blessing and Curse. Blessing: GREAT fuel economy, performance and ability to compensate at altitude, Curse because F.I. is very battery dependent and if even ONE component fails or is corroded ... you are DONE. (NOTE: this is very unlikely as most modern elec. components will never fail) Curse because F.I. also depends on reliability of a high pressure fuel pump. Bad fuel/dirty/watered fuel can sometimes DESTROY the fuel pump. (filtering fuel would solve most of these woes) As suggested, ride a few bikes, see which ones speak to you. Be sure to imagine that bike with 30 kgs. of luggage/extras strapped onto it. :smartass: http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-bx3GHrC-L.jpg 250's Rock! Baja, XR250R |
Great summary. Agree on all points but not sure on the issues. I know they've changed the fuel pump. New one seems to last longer. Lots of info on changing it. I'd bring a spare pump only and relocate it in the pump housing. It's pretty small.
I certainly prefer FI but there are plenty debates about that. Did a trip with 2 supposedly unreliable Dakar including at high altitude 5000m+ and no problems. It's best to filter your fuel though. But that's easy and is do that with carbs too. Definitely go lightweight. More so the lighter the bike is. But that's a good thing. 45l plus a tank bag should do it just fine. No need for 80l of gear. Jap bikes are great with needing few tools. The subframe is steel so no worries on that. I'm six feet and just added bar risers and am mega comfy. Seat is decent compared to my DRZ one even after modification. Haven't noticed much power reduction here in Calgary yet. It's only at 1000m so not that high. I'm sure I'll find out soon. Most of my trips haven't seen high altitudes though. Bolivia took the crown at 5000m and the 650 struggled at speeds and grades. I'm not trying to push it but thought I'd widen your range. I wouldn't want to take the DRZ and can't think of many other mid sized ones beyond it. Plenty of 650 options. They're only getting heavier though. 200kg+ luggage is crazy heavy on anything other than a well graded road (paved with asphalt or gravel, it's still road). But if you target some remote dirt sections (Mongolia or Africa ) I'd look more for a tool for that job. This 2fitty is often overlooked because of the number. It's no ordinary 2fitty. |
http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-f2TkMxV-L.jpg
Typical WR250R set up for travel. Borrowed from WR250R thread. This guy still needs a "real" seat to get far ... but the bike looks fairly balanced to my eye. SO MUCH info on that thread. |
Depends how soft your tush is Molly. ;-)
Here is some more WRR porn. http://touch.cycleworld.com/all/130687#1 http://img2.onswipe.com/unsafe/fit-i...-l-590x393.jpg I'm (slowly) working on a bag with better geometric mass distribution to get it lower and further. Water and slash proof of course. |
Yep, I admit it ... I'm a an official "Wuss". :wheelchair: I like a nice wide seat for LD travel. I can do a dirt bike seat ... but takes me about a week of tortured riding to "condition" my butt to the discomfort.
I can ride 10 hours on my Corbin, then get up and do it again the next day. Fact is, most ADV RTW riders still spend most miles on paved roads droning along. Seats are important in my view. :blushing: I read that Cycle World build article a while back (I subscribe to CW). I was re-reading it just now and thought "...man, they spent a whole lot of money on that bike." Then I noticed the first comment below: "A lot of overkill on this bike. The most expensive of everything. Does it really need rim upgrades? The worlds most expensive bags. Notoriously expensive FMF muffler? If I was to build up this bike, the most I would spend my money on would be the larger tank. Add a DG muffler, open up the airbox. Go with a Wolfman Beta bag and buy the strap mount for my Fly Racing medium tank bag. Since I would be doing a lot of commuting with this bike I would stay with the stock gearing. But in all reality I need at least a 450 version of this bike.." I pretty much agree with above comments. They must have spent close to $5000 usd. Cycle World, like most of our corporate owned bike mags, tend to Pimp for their advertisers ... and that's what we see here. Big time. The $400 Dyno Jet box is the worst offender. Wastes fuel, does very little. I prefer the big ADV Rider WR-R thread because once in a while one of those clowns actually get out and ride ... then you can hear first hand feed back, which I like, and I learn the most about the bike from those sorts of reports. Very few LD ride reports on ADV featuring the WR250R. Only seen a few. I also really liked your comments and your comparisons to your Dakar, which I've ridden several times. Good stuff. :thumbup1: |
I think everyone would love a 450 super trail (the WRR's marketing name). I certainly would so long the weight would not go up too much. The 2fitty is heavy enough for its displacement.
I'll probably keep the air box and pipe stock. Don't see the need for trips and I'm sick of wrenching. Yep, not enough small light bikes around and tonnes of heavy adventure looking KLR's and beemers with big boxes like wings on the sides. Particularly here in NA. And met up with a few in south America winging about any patch of sand and even turning around on sections that turned out to be highlights for us. Time to ignore the adds saying you need 1100-650cc's and luggage rack and line their pockets. Time to buck the trend. Most newbies, like I did, still fall for the trap but wise up when they return and go lighter and smaller. |
Interesting thread also.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...d.php?p=479475 |
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Indeed. Heavy though. I'd take a DR in that case.
Rather than looking at it by percentage of terrain category of a planned route that often gets thrown it the window you might be better off to go for the tool most suited for the terrain that you're least familiar with. The trip starts when you leave Europe or NA. Plans change then and the pace changes. |
I have to agree.
A good seat is sooo important. You will never hate yourself more when your arse feels like chopped liver after month on an enduro seat and you're somewhere can you can do Jack shit about... I'm getting mine gel packed, then an Airhawk... With a sheepskin on top. :cool4: |
Your forgetting the bubble wrap and parcel tape too...thought I'd been dragged to Brighton and seen to after riding a drz 500 miles in a day once..with the modification I managed Spain back to dieppe without the urge to jump under a lorry..
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The drz seat is a lot firmer than the WRR. But seats are easily modded.
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Is that to stop the piles from rubbing Ted :rofl: Sorry...just a bit of banter Wayne |
well hopefully that's the 250 story done to death :offtopic:
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Yes, we all got a bit carried away on the 250 thing ... which you'd already said early on that you weren't interested in. Fair enough. :offtopic:
Not much to add as you are the rare guy who knows what's out there and has a good perspective on things overall. Nothing much more to suggest beyond Blagging a few test rides ... see what suits you. That Trials training course will pay BIG dividends ... no matter the bike you end up on. Trials is the best training, IMO. :thumbup1: Staying fit and working on aerobic conditioning helps too. I'm 65, still ride off road ... but no longer compete. (rode AMA Enduros for 8 years in my 40's) If buying in the UK I think I'd go with a XT600E (air cooled version). Cheap ... and check the weight! :thumbup1: Put some money into it ... could be OK! ? The newer Tenere' could be OK too ... bit heavy. I'm not a fan of BMW or KTM. I've towed too many and loaded too many onto the break down truck to trust them outside the country. But that's just me ... bier |
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If you're in the camp of wanting something more powerful/torquey yet as light or lighter than the DR650SE, there are only 3 options: - KTM 690 Enduro R. - BMW XChallenge/XCountry - KTM 640 Adventure If you want FI, that removes the 640A (if you can even find one). The KTM 690 R.. well, definitely a lot more prone than a DR650SE but there are several people riding it RTW. The 2014 got several improvements and may be a significantly more reliable bike now. Gun to the head, it'd probably pick that right now. The XChallenge (and its lower XCountry cousin) actually seems the closest to a true update/successor to the DR650SE but alas they are discontinued and they are really hard to find even in the US. The hooligan choice though is the 408lb dry KTM 950SE... anyhow, the sensible option is picking up a DR650SE in the US. I just dont feel like making a sensible choice! :taz: |
The X Challenge is certainly a good option, especially if buying in the UK as DR650's are rare in UK/EU. X Chal's are probably pretty scarce too? Dunno.
For a while there were plenty for sale in US ... I nearly bought a virgin one ... but after a test ride I decided against. But clearly with a few good mods, it can be a SUPER good bike, and the X Country too, IMO. I see the odd KTM 640 nearly every week on San Francisco Bay Area Craig's list. Adventures, dual sports, SM's, all kinds. Some good deals but most are older bikes from late 90's to early 2000's. I owned a the 640 dual sport in 2001, loved it off road. On road? Not so much ... and way too tall for me at just 5' 6". A friend currently owns a 2002 (I think) 640 Adventure, also really nice off road, but lots of problems with it and vibes BIG on highway. He never rides it now ... it sits and sits and sits. maybe he'd sell it? He's rich guy, has 6 or 7 bikes. The X Challenge and X Country are both pretty good on road and a bit lighter than the DR650. You pays yer money, and takes yer chances! :innocent: bier |
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That Trials training course will pay BIG dividends ... no matter the bike you end up on. Trials is the best training, IMO. :thumbup1: Staying fit and working on aerobic conditioning helps too. I'm 65, still ride off road ... but no longer compete. (rode AMA Enduros for 8 years in my 40's) If buying in the UK I think I'd go with a XT600E (air cooled version). Cheap ... and check the weight! :thumbup1: Put some money into it ... could be OK! ? The newer Tenere' could be OK too ... bit heavy. I'm not a fan of BMW or KTM. I've towed too many and loaded too many onto the break down truck to trust them outside the country. But that's just me ... bier[/QUOTE] Bought a trials bike off eBay. Beta Evo 250 and found a farm nr Kidderminster to have a play on. I can'y wait and may join a club if I take to it seriously or just use it to get some low speed (safe) off road practice with fitness and balance training thrown in for free then sell it when I get my travel bike. On that topic I really like the look of the teneré but it's heavy as hell and costs virtually the same as the latest 2014 KTM 690 which beats the ten in every way apart from the tank! I don't want an old bike as I would end up spending a lot having the wiring replaced and bearings swapped. No I think I'd rather go newer but then the new KTM with a volume knob for a throttle and separately programmed twin plugs plus all those ride modes would leave me stranded if I encountered a minor breakdown. The DR650 doesn't exist in the UK. Neither does the x challenge apart from the odd one which sells for a daft amount. I would probably go buy one from Germany if I went down that route. Basically I just confirmed there is no ideal bike so I'll concentrate on falling off my Beta for the time being and leave the travel bike question time to answer itself. Leaning in the direction of the 2014 KTM 690 at the moment but ask me next week...:innocent: |
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