Well, it's all fairly academic for me because unless my lottery numbers come up I won't be in the market for one until they're cheap enough secondhand that I could buy one without my wife noticing. Which if previous CCM depreciation kicks in should be about Xmas. I just think we've been talking about the biking equivalent of one of my daughter's friends - very pretty to look at but highly strung and expensive to run.

Ted mentioned earlier the list of things that he needed to do to his DRZ to get it to survive a trip down the length of Africa - a whole bunch of parts that needed to be replaced with upgrades to fix shortcomings in the original. All of these came from the aftermarket world but DRZs are so common you trip over them in the street so there's a market there to be served. What's CCM's predicted production run? - 2/3/400? No one's going to produce parts for 50 early adopters and 200 bikes stuck in showrooms, or if they do it's going to be for the market they know - racing. Someone coming back with the bike smoking like a WW2 destroyer after a 10K miles trip to India and back is going to be queuing for overpriced parts alongside some hot shot weekend racer spending all his "T-Bone, Family Butcher Race Team" sponsorship money.

Everyone, I'm sure, has their own idea of what makes an ideal overlanding bike. Bitter experience makes mine something that I know will start and move under its own power when I stagger out of a tent in the middle of the Sahara with a hangover to find it buried up the wheel spindles in sand and no memory of how it got there. The CCM may do that, I just don't think it will do it for long enough to make it down to the part of the market I inhabit.

:thumbup1: If you buy a bike with a slightly detuned race-engine you should buy it for having fun and not for longevity.
My guess is that 99% of the adventure-trips (whatever that is) is shorter then 15.000 miles anyway.

It's not the kind of bike I would have bought but I find it interesting, and it's cool that someone make a cheap version of a PD-bike.

I used to spend a lot of money on bikes (and snowmobiles and ATVs and so on), but now I'm living a lot more frugally, so the projected price is fairly significant.

And 15k isn't a lot of miles, I used to do that and more per year when I commuted part time on the bike (northern New England winters aren't conducive to 250 mile cimmutes).

I've put on that much in a 3rd world environment over the last year I've been in-country. I can buy either of the bikes I've been using for less than the cost of the CCM motor.

For what some are stating, the CCM will work great for them, basically limited distance touring and fun rides.

Those just aren't my needs anymore, I need something 3rd world robust (can take handle heavy loads and bad road conditions), is easy to service, has good parts availability, is cheap to run and that's reliable day in, day out.
There aren't many machines like that sold in the West anymore.

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There must be a long list of questions that you have written down by now.
I hope you can get satisfactory answers to them all from one factory visit/test ride.

I have been wondering if this bike will turn up on the PD in South America in 2014; cheap it is compared with the exotic stuff in that race. After all, the prototype has CCM-racing in the logos (on the swingarm), IIRC from the video.

They are available in the UK; there are plenty of dealers selling 125cc bikes including the YBR that you favour at present.
+ the Chinese are coming, if one believes some of the press - there has always been a (small) market in the west for Chinese bikes, but it is reported that the importers will "up their game" in the near future.
Then there is the manufacturing that is going on in India, which may well export in this direction.

15000 miles is currently 3 years usage for me. If I had a good first or second year and did 12000 I'd either have to trade in before my three year plan or pay the huge bill on a bike I'd sell 6 months later, or be limited in where I might go. Not RTW but something that doesn't fit the profile I want.

Another Wee/Glee or similar might be a lardy semi-road bike with way too much performance I'll never use but it is now part of the choice. I'd hoped the CCM was better off road, just as good at legal road speeds and the same on service hassle.

Andy

Yeah... Not many trips are 15,000 miles long. But do you want to ride a bike to it's limit..

It would play mind games on you constantly.

Getting to the real reality of the situation. Do you want to be getting to the end of a 10,000 miles(ish) long trip and instead of thinking ' To hell with it, I'm going to keep going another 10,000 miles' , you're thinking ' Sh*t, I need to ship my bike back home to swap the engine'....

:nono:

It would probably not explode at 15.001 miles. It's an estimate (like I estimate 100.000 miles for a clutch on my BMW or 150 hours on my KTM).

Some of the standard (not detuned) G450X's have reported 35.000 miles without major problems. Do you have any expereince with G450X from your work?

Note:
Have to go now and pack my alu-boxes, leaving for a ultra-short adventure tomorrow. :offtopic:

Yeah... I see what you're saying but I wouldn't trust one to get to 15,000 without a glitch let alone 30,000..

As you know, a minor glitch in your home town can become a major show stopping headache in the "3rd world"..

As for my experience.... I've only been a beemer tech for 6 months and I've still not seen a single one come through our workshop or showroom.

In six months, I've only seen two F650's too.

I guess it comes to a point with owning BMW that paying £240 quid for a service stops making sense.

Shame really because these bikes need main dealer love much more than other brands.

Walkabout -
There must be a long list of questions that you have written down by now.
I hope you can get satisfactory answers to them all from one factory visit/test ride.

Yes i do have a long list of questions - I think I will get answers to some but would not expect answers to all of them as they probably do not have all the answers - that said they have answered quite a few points I brought up with them so far. If you don't ask then you really wont get an answer - its better I would think to go see and ask - better that is than all this pulling down of a company and a machine before its even got off its knees. At the end of the day its just a single cylinder 4 valve engine - we are not talking about star trek's enterprise's anti matter propulsion system are we - It would be interesting to know how many people have gone and bought a bike without all this debate and well - just managed. I think most of us have over the years.

My average mileage now will be fairly low - so the bike would probably last me quite well and for a good few years - if the chassis and running gear is well put together then the engine work when required would give me a project over the dark winter months - as I will no longer be riding during the winter. But I do like a project in the garage these days - goes with the pipe smoking jacket and slippers.

:stupid:

A mate of mine took his Husaberg 570 (also a two ring racing piston and 12:1 compression job) on a 20,000 mile / 32,000 km mostly off road ride from Chile to Montana over 6 months last year ... without so much as a SINGLE engine issue. All he did was oil changes about every 3000 miles / 5000 km (about 2-3 times LESS frequently than the manual says).

That was they picture that they put on the 390 article,
that is why i used it.
I did not know that it was the 1190 KTM.

I was thinking of something a bit bigger than the 125s. 125s work great in much of SE Asia, but as roads get more 'civilized', they become straighter and smoother and I more powerful vehicle can be useful.

I'd say the 350 to 650 class single cylinder bikes should be good workhorses almost anywhere, but most of the bikes in this class don't get great gas mileage or have substandard subframes or are overly complex.

I tend to agree that the Chinese and Indian manufacturers will likely become major players in this segment on the world market, if not in the West.
They are already making major inroads in most 3rd world countries in the sub-250cc sector, and many of the 'Japanese' bikes sold here are in fact built in China, India, Thailand and similar countries.
My Yamaha 125 was built in China, and many of the Kawasakis sold here are wholly designed and built in India.

Based on the Chinese bikes I've ridden over the last few years, quality and design have improved substantially.
Most of the issues I've seen are importer induced, either at assembly or service time, or specifying low end components to get a rock bottom price.




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You weren't the only one ;-)

I see the picture of the 1190 featured in the motoroids.com article linked from your HU thread is now missing.

This pic has turned up on the internet:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...90931006_n.jpg

But its clearly a photoshop job, mostly a 450 rally, with a front 1190 fairing and a freeride frame blended on

The rebuild interval of spark ignition engines varies from 1,000,000+ km for a Ford Barra (Aussie Taxi motor) to 5 seconds of full throttle for a Top Fuel dragster. All other engines are somewhere in between. Perhaps the best way to understand the differences this is to look at what is done to convert a standard production engine to a race engine. I will ignore the cylinder head and concentrate on the bottom end. If someone asked me to develop a standard DRZ400E into a MX/Enduro race motor, here is what I would do:
1. Increase compression ratio to 12.5:1 since it will only ever run on fresh, high quality premium fuel.
2. Make the engine as oversquare as possible by boring the cylinder and having a short stroke crank made.
3. Find the lightest possible piston (i.e. short skirt) to increase redline and improve throttle response. Also specify the lightest possible conrod, crank, flywheel and clutch.
4. Reduce friction in the engine by only specifying 1 oil control ring on said piston. Also reduce the width and diameter of all bearings in the engine for the same reason.
5. Minimize weight and improve packaging by decreasing sump capacity to 1 litre. Not a big deal as the engine will be serviced at the end of each days racing.

Of these mods 1, 3, 4 and 5 will decrease engine life by varying amounts. 2 will increase fuel consumption and 4 will decrease it. In a nutshell those things are the difference between a G450X engine and a KLR engine.

With the piston thing, it helps to understand how a piston works. The piston rocks back and forth on the gudegeon/wrist pin as the crank rotates. It "floats" in the bore on a film of oil between the skirt and cylinder wall. The rings are for sealing, not to support the piston. The easiest way to reduce piston weight is to cut down the skirt. The problem with this is there is less area to support the piston and since pressure=force/area, the pressure of the skirt against the cylinder wall will increase. More pressure on oil film supporting piston = greater chance of metal to metal contact = bore scuffing. Bore scuffing will always occur much sooner with a short skirt piston compared to a regular piston.

One of the easiest ways to increase power in a race engine is to reduce friction. Pistons usually have 3 rings. The top ring or compression ring seals the combustion chamber and prevents combustion gases blowing past the piston. Below that are usually 2 oil control rings, whose job it is to scrape most of the oil off the cylinder wall to prevent it getting burnt in the combustion chamber, but leaving just enough to lubricate the skirt and compression ring. To reduce friction we can get rid of one of these oil control rings and the engine will run just fine - while it is new. Over time our oil control ring will wear and lose tension, and if there is only one of them, oil consumption will increase dramatically. Not a big deal in a race engine that gets frequent rebuilds.

Incidentally it is common for car manufacturers to do something similar. But instead of only using 1 oil ring, they use 2 low tension oil rings. It reduces friction, reduces fuel consumption and reduces engine life. They don't care about the reduced engine life as long as it gets through warranty. Fuel economy is so important for new cars these days that it is worth it for them. Pity oil consumption isn't measured in the same way. doh

The piston and conrod weight is balanced by the crankshaft counter weights. It will be impossible to find a medium skirt 3 ring piston that weighs the same as the short skirt 2 ring race piston. To balance the heavier piston tungsten inserts can be added to the crank counter weights. Any engine balancer worth his/her salt should be able to do this.

You make some good points. I have posted in this thread to point out some of the possible pitfalls of using an unmodified G450X engine in an overland travel bike, which is what I think some of the people on this forum are seeing the CCM as. Of course it remains to be seen if the CCM incarnation of this engine is infact re-engineered.

As an engine is on it's way out, performance and fuel economy decreases due to poor ring seal, and oil consumption increases, again due to poor ring seal. If the engine uses a dykes style compression ring then blow-by won't be a problem, the oil consumption will come under high vacuum over-run on a closed throttle. Think coasting down a big hill. Gentle riding won't help in this situation.

35,000 miles or kms on a G450x engine? Either is within the realms of possibility but highy dependent on riding style, usage and maintenance. Just like a KLR can go 7 times that distance without the engine being opened. How many people are prepared for 1/7th the service life of a KLR? If the "average" KLR goes 100,000km, the "average" G450X may go 14,000km? What constitutes "major problems". Motocross guys regard rings and bearings as normal service items on the modern 4 strokes.