Apologies for the poor editing / spelling above, Tapatalk beta is doing some weird stuff including not allowing me to edit posts. Anyway, hopefully the gist comes through.

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You seem to have some strongly-held beliefs about motos that I don't necessarily agree with, so...

:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping: Yeah, whatever...sorry, but in my experience GS are generally pretty reliable. I know its fun to hop on the anti-GS bandwagon, but...

I think there's a slight gap between a Kimco and an "ultimate machine," and I guess people should choose what they RTW on, rather than you deciding for them. People can and do RTW on just about everying from post-bikes to Harleys to Goldwings. And you hardly have to limit yourself to "ideal riding destinations." I mean, c'mon...

Who says you have to "push the limits" to have fun? Again, there's a large gap between riding a 125cc and "pushing the limits", and I enjoy spending my vacations squarely within that gap.

sorry, to suggest that I will suddenly "blend in" with the locals, or that I will have more genuine interactions with them, because I'm on a tiny bike is a bit ridiculous. I guess that could be partially true if I left all protective gear at home as well so, but I'm not willing to do that, and as long as I don't will hardly blend in with anybody.

Must admit I care not a jot what anyone chooses to ride - it does not affect me I loved my KTM I loved my 80gs I really quite like my Infield, My first travel bike was a r65 bm back in the mid 70's I also liked that for all its faults but I also like my pushbike and i like walking - can't figure out why everyone seems to be so uptight about other peoples choice of whats the right and wrong way to go places - I mean I never figured out the sidecar thing :confused1: but then again a really good friend Iain and Debz just used one such contraption to do their RTW and completed the journey with some ups and some downs but is that not true of any machine you would use - great fun but bleeding weird and for mad, eccentric and strange people (Sorry Debz if your listening in but he does look mad and weird and I am sure I detected a hint just a smidgen of eccentricity in the plot, your just as barmy in a more controlled way me thinks - you hide it well, and both great friends to me so I forgive you those particular traits ) Jake.

Hey...

What about Ewan and Charlie ????



Almost time for that isn't it ???


:eek3:

I totally agree with this, i only passed my bike test in April and i am currently on a bike trip and i am very new to this type of traveling however i soon found out i am a biker and not a traveler (however i am more interested in meeting people than i am at looking at old buildings) and i took a lot of time researching the bike to choose (DRZ400 with alot of mods) and if i was on a 125cc i think i would i gone crazy touched the bike and caught a flight back


However what i have come to the conclusion is from searching forums is that if there was no internet, facebook, blogs ect ect would these people that ride C90s, honda melodies ect ect long distances still do it if there was no audience to say "your are real crazy"

In other words if the tree falls in the forest and there was no one around to hear it fall would it still fall? :innocent:

There is no doubt there are difficulties getting stuff in remote locations, but with a bit of forward planning and creativity this can all be sorted out. Which parts not required for routine maintenance are really required on a bike? Your current situation is representative to that of people on a trip, but not having a network of friends locally, it's more difficult (not impossible) to arrange for things to get sent out.

Having read Horizons threads before I started doing my own bike trips I can't help but feel the reliability argument is over stated. As is the blend in, old is better, or old means being able to get local parts argument. That's not my experience at all. I've been fortunate enough to not need to search for parts, but every part that I needed was not locally available, and that was on an old bike.
I'm six feet, blue eyed and blond. Including facial hair. The Pakistanis thought that was piss funny. I've got no hope blending in. Luggage doesn't help either. But I think remote communities would roll out to see what rolled in regardless who you are. You are a foreigner to their community, not just their country. Being dirty can help.

The tools required on BM's and I guess Euro bikes in general are ridiculous, I agree. It's a breath of fresh air, having moved to a WRR from a F650, to see how simple things are done on the other side of the world. Even with a higher level of technology used. My tool and spares kit is tiny now. A motion pro tool kit takes care of just about anything. I hope CCM take this into consideration.

The fun factor is different for everyone. Generally, most people on this forum, myself included, start off with no or nearly no off road experience. So a 'get by on anything and enjoy the smell of the flowers' approach is more common. The more you do these adventure rides, locally or abroad, you tend to get better at it. With that comes a divide in interest. Some stick to the old recipe, others enjoy the off roading and push the boundaries of themselves and/or equipment. Either by going nuts across the Simpson desert on a posty (CT110) for charity every year to test their endurance, or deck out the best of the best equipment to enjoy the riding and performance. This thread falls under the latter interest.

I've got to say that the improvement in equipment is massively noticeable. Both for enjoyment but mainly safety. Good gear saved my life in plenty occasions. I'm still suffering a fractures humerus (since November) after a front wheel wash out, at low speed (20-40km) not pushing it, on an old TTR. I ripped the rear hose out of the rear brake banjo with a bunch of vines stuck in the rear wheel on my WRR the day before. I was shitting my pants that whole day on that TTR. Felt more safe on the WRR without having a rear break on a trail ride half a day. And I'm convinced I wouldn't have crashed on it.

From this I'm further convinced that good gear is a prerequisite for going out, particularly remote bush, if you do decide to go there. Friends who have done those posty rides reckon they've never felt on the edge as much. And that's compare to race events. Just for a bit of background information, I didn't get choppered out. Instead having to sit in a bouncy car with either end of the bone playing chop sticks with each other. Luckily we trailered into the bush this time, so there at least there was a car. Glad I don't ride alone.

I had on as well. The tank is about it in term of cost. But still not that much. And it holds a value somewhat. Rad guards are not necessary for adventure riding. I took mine off. Need to sell them still. Those case guards are pretty cheap I think. Most def necessary though. I didn't do the 3x3 and had no problem lifting the rear wheel. Great bike. Better trail bike, gearing wise, than my WRR, but it needs that 6th gear. There is one available.

Besides the well documented loctite fixes, what else did it need?

Well not until you get a hole in the RAD which has happened to people in the past, safer to keep them on as my current rad guards have dents from stones/small rocks and must have saved my rads from leaks






Do you have the link for this as i have been searching

My bad. It must have been a wide ratio gear set.

ACT Wide Ratio Gears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5VyQMO9_aU

Trucks can throw up rocks, but a bit of chicken wire zip tied to the plastic guard can help. Or go bush to try and avoid the trucks and their drunk drivers in the first place. :funmeteryes:

No, the main reason you WON'T have that bike in Thailand is . . . it's no longer possible to bring it in under any circumstances as of about June 2012. Cambodia . . . still no problem but you can't ride around on a foreign tagged vehicle in Thailand very long.

Too bad . . . Cambodia's paperwork and visa issues are much simpler than Thailand . . . but on balance, I'm sticking with the LOS.

Not sure what "lived extensively" is but the last 11 years have been in Thailand (2 years), India (6 years) and Thailand (3) years. Thailand is "too easy" compared to India and in many, many ways easier than any western country.

+1000 generally but my TE630 is ALWAYS way more fun than my DRZ, and it's alot faster, too, on street or dirt. :)

It's the unplanned stuff that'll really get you here, however. I'm looking at a buddy's cracked lower triples on an XR400. This is going to be a huge PIA AND expensive and time consuming.

Seriously agree. It's almost irrationally overstated. My father-in-law rides 100,000km a year. He's done it for 14+ years. It used to all be done on . . . Harleys ! Now he's entirely on BMWs which he finds the most reliable bike he's ever ridden. (He's a machinist.)

The engine's are all pretty good or better. The transmissions might make clunky noises and have too few gears but . . . they work, fine. The soft parts do wear out, whether the quality is good or crap. It's the connective tissue that fails or degrades in a noticeable manner, sometimes across just a single trip.

Really ? I find almost any euro bike easier to work on, if made in the last 15+ years (my '68 Ducati Sebring 350 required a neurosurgeon to manage the points !) . . . the japanese put an astonishing amount of attention and effort into delivering quality AT delivery. But they suck to work on or maintain. XR/DRZ cams . . . and valve shimming. MUCH easier on my KTM 950, aside from the tank removal and carb removal necessitated by a V-twin, than on those and . . . I could teach my wife to do it easily, quickly and confidently. The buddy with the cracked triples . . . Ducati/BMW certified tech - works at a Honda dealership now and says . . . "I've gone to hell . . . working on japanese machines."

The japanese are the master's of "special tool" such-and-such.

True that. Experience begets, generally, greater expectations and awareness. Rookies think just getting away on a slight grade at a red light is pretty amazing. :)

Hey, the 3x3 mod returns power AND improved economy.

My entirely original DRZ with 46/15 gearing returned just over 45 MPG @ 60MPH. The modded one will throttle wheelie in 2nd gear with a 100kg rider and returns >55MPG. (The MRD pipe certainly didn't hurt, either.)

The BM I had, had a knack for needing every size tool in the catalogue. So far the majority on the WRR are 8's and 10's. Haven't greased bearings and things yet. Or pulled the shims (under bucket like the BM), so dunno much about special tools yet. The BM certainly had some. Even on simple stuff like for the steering lock nut. But keeping it about the stuff you might do on a trip I reckon the Yammi wins hands down.

Is it not possible for a befriended local bike or even car dealer or importer to take delivery for unusual parts like clamps? If the label is an issue it could relabeled by a friend prior to posting.

Wouldn't be a big surprise ! I'm not the fan of BM's my father-in-law is but we have very different goals. I do like their riding experience - "character" - and find it almost devoid in the DRZ. :(

There's no small industry here that's been largely endangered doing just that. Largely operated by farang (folk of european descent) expats . . . they're slowly being squeezed out. There's an impressive collection of "non-book" bikes impounded in Chiang Mai - Ducati 916s, Harleys, etc.

The folks who want the big bikes don't vote (here). Parts importation is tricky because that's how alot of the non-book bikes got here - partially dis-assembled as "parts" to avoid duty.

The final reason the (specific) XR's triple will be a headache . . . Honda changes part numbers and parts seemingly to frustrate the backyard mechanic. Steerers, triple offset, accessory (gauge mounts, eg), bearing sizes, etc are ostensibly on a whim. Even a Honda dealer seems to have considerable sense of it all. (There are so many threads on JUST XR SM triples . . . )

I think it needs the 3x3 if you're loaded up. That's just my opinion. That pair valve and Carb solonoid are just something else to go wrong.

There is a 6th gear available ??? It really does need one.

The rads are really weak. I know a few people who cracked theirs with light spills.

www.touringted.com

I think I took the snorkel out besides the normal restrictions here in Oz (intake manifold obstruction and exhaust opening). We get the 'E' here though with pumper carb as standard. Never had power issues, but I never did ride it with 25-30kg of gear. Maybe 15-20, but that's trail riding.

Did they break that rad even with the big tank? I've tried my best beating it with a stick, but even sliding into a dead tree trunk didn't cause any damage at all.

I really like the idea of a 400-450cc adventure bike. The choice of engine isn't lighting my fire either though.

Sorry, messed up. No 6 gears. Wide ratio gear sets though.

Anyone got any views on the ccm by any chance ?

By the way -whilst i was looking on t internet - I checked out the adv rider thread on the bm g450x, and it seems that largely everyone liked the bike loved the engine and that reliability seemed reasonably fine and much in line with many other motors - what was certain there was not page after page of whinging about it being a bad engine with insurmountable problems - ( that is if you take the owners points of view into the case rather than the views of all the all knowing voices in the shadows - who probably at best maybe walked past a g450x or seen one in a showroom - Then again Ewan and Charlie did not even look at them never mind choose them so they cant be any good can they. (See Ted I got Ewan and Charlie back on the agenda)

I heard from a mate down the pub E and C will ride CCM on their next jaunt... :scooter:

[QUOTE=adventure950;428102]Anyone got any views on the ccm by any chance ?
/QUOTE]
Somewhere back there a Mod asked for this thread to stay on topic, but what is the topic for "a single cyl adv bike" placed within "which bike"?
It's probably just as well that the search engine works pretty well nowadays, for anyone who is looking for views about DRZs, Husky this-that-and-t'other + whatever else.

Anyway, here's a couple of things to check out when test riding the CCM:-
The seat in the pic looks like a plank, a very thin plank.
I guess a test ride in July will give an idea about how it really is.

What chance of this? I would expect that the BMW 650 single cyl engine won't get to CCM anytime in the near future.
Maybe the Yam 660cc that has been found in, for instance, the Aprilia Pegaso??

Should we start a thread about thread drift? Japanese whaling and DRZ mods in the same thread, fantastic. :rofl:

From my own point of view the CCM is ticking many boxes. New means less hassle and the spec means I don't blow time on mods that I use for a while then pass to the next bloke FOC. I want long range to avoid dodgy rural petrol and either no servicing because it just works or simple servicing. I don't need CAN unless they'll give me the PC programme, but aren't worried if they do. I need the ability to cruise with the trucks if the only road open is the motorway but won't do this out of choice. I don't need 1200cc. I can ride a Triumph Bonneville on any surface I care to, so light and easy is better but I won't be joining the local MX club either. I ride two up two or three times a year, slowly, so I need maybe 25HP. I am not that tall but am a mean Yorkshireman who wants £30 tyres and 75 mpg. I have no idea if bikes have a soul or not. My old Bullet was a laugh as you could use 101% of the performance you'd bought, then it either broke or tried to kill you. My WeeStrom is boring by comparison, it just takes the abuse.

On the go anywhere front of bikes I can buy in the UK the potential singles (which I like from the power delivery point of view) seem to be:

1. CCM
2. Husqvarna.
3. Enfield.
4. Tenere
5. G650
6. KLX250 at a push.

Anything else with a 200 mile range and 60 mph cruising speed we could compare to the CCM?

What would Ewan and Charlie do if there was to be more ****ing and fewer wheelies :rofl:

Andy

The short answer is yes of course they would. I've been riding small bikes long distances on and off for the last forty years - long before the internet, EnC or even Ted Simon for that matter. I've done it for loads of reasons - either it was all I could afford at the time, I liked a challenge or I just got bored with big bikes (and probably many others as well). The vast majority of those trips were not recorded, written up or even photographed as I didn't think it was anything out of the ordinary at the time.

It's only now that 1200cc bikes are regarded as "middleweights", the internet making everyone an author and the arrival of "charity guilt sponsorship" that stuff like LE-JOG on a moped is worthy of note. Loads more to say on the subject but as this is a thread on the merits or otherwise of a new CCM I'll just add that my 600cc CCM is currently languishing in the garage while I'm buzzing around on a 125.

I am sure a 4-stroke 125cc is a very capable bike, i recently meet a guy who has done alot of travelling on a large BMW, a Pushbike and was now on a XR125 which seemed very capable if you like lower speed however on a moped type bike i really cant see what would motivate someone to do it

I cant see why a bike less than 125cc would be fun when you could prob pick up 250cc to 350cc for near the same price.

Maybe it also depends on what type of riding you like? i always look for off road routes or bad roads tracks to take to remote areas as i find this interests me a lot more so i need a more capable bike like a DRZ which is very capable offroad and also if needed can sit at 120km on motorways if needed

I know many people like that dude on a post bike from Oz to UK have carried out such a trip but i think this story is different compared some other people today who choose a moped type bike for the "im crazy factor"

I think it is what makes you happy and we are all different and for me a bike 125cc or less on a long trip sounds like my idea of hell.... but hey its different horses for different courses right? :scooter:

Well I can't disagree with that - it's a phrase I've used myself a number of times in replies here. :smartass:

The thing is though, as well as the 125 I also have a number of other bikes from 400 to 1000cc, including two 600 single trailies, so when I decide to go anywhere on the 125 it's from choice, not necessity. I know the strengths and weaknesses of all of them; what they're good at and what they're not. The 125 is very light (85kg), more comfortable (really) and more relaxing to ride (really) than the 400 for example. Unless you're going down the motorway or hammering the 400 it's not actually that much slower. It also passes unnoticed almost anywhere - nobody gives it a second glance and you can leave it places I wouldn't dare leave the larger bikes. On a long(ish) trip those qualities matter. I've done enough trips in the past where I've worried myself silly overnight whether the bike will still be there in the morning.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not some sort of born again 125 messiah. There are times when it's totally the wrong bike (unless you really are on some sort of publicity trail) - two up, in the mountains, when you need to get somewhere quickly or look like a gnarly, tough biker dude (:rofl:) etc but with speed limits and stuff in the real world it's probably 80% as good as the 400.

I have a feeling you'll still dismiss them as some sort of unterbike though! :laugh:

Attachment 10200

"I have a feeling you'll still dismiss them as some sort of unterbike though!"

No i have had my fun on many 125cc (and under) bikes but just for long distance they are not for me but that is only my view not the rest of the worlds.

I am only going from the little experience i currently have and looking at your website you have probably forgotten more than i currently know about long distance biking :innocent:

But yes it all boils down to what makes you happy and if that is riding a 1200GS a 125cc bike or a DRZ (:thumbup1:) then it all comes down to what makes you happy

I did hear a rumour somewhere that Charley Boorman tore a CCM poster off the wall while exclaiming "How dare they?" when Ewan told him CCM were not prepared to pay them the 350,000 pounds in cash they asked for, for the next trip.

:blushing::blushing:

I heard Ewans smarmie grin was the inspiration for the front end of the new GS and Charlie farts 98 Ron unleaded..

www.touringted.com

Any time a millionaire several times over gets expensive stuff for free should elicit a smarmy grin.

CCM have been in touch with me today - Test rides have been postponed as some more internal adjustments to the 450 have been made and will need further testing, setup and fine tuning before the test rides begin. Sounds to me like they are listening to what's being said and still making adjustments to get the bike set up to meet the requirements of those giving feedback both directly and on the forums.
The CCM will be on a stand at Kelso bike fest this weekend - I might have a run up its just 40 odd mile from here.

Depends where you are riding. Some places you can push limits on a 125.

As for the GS reference, you misread / misquoted. I was referring to having to drag a full toolkit / extensive spares so as to tour on my Husky. That weight would have pushed me to needing a bigger bike to carry the load.

And for the Husky, that's necessary, at least spare chain and all the associated tools / pullers to service it. Plus the clutch service items.

As it happens though, I'm one of the apparently few riders who are GS haters, based on personal experience. My '98 RGS that I bought new has been the single most unreliable vehicle I've ever owned (going back to 1973), followed by my Husky, although the Husky would have to compete with my '69 Renault 10.

My much-despised chinabike (by the motorcycle' experts' here and elsewhere) has been more reliable than either of those two bikes.



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LOS / Cambodia don't make up even half the countries in SE Asia. While bringing in my Husky to the Philippines wouldn't have been a piece of cake, I have some contacts here that would have registered it quite cheaply.

I've only been coming here for 7 years, and resident for 2.

But I did live in South Africa for over 40 years, and operated a business in Zimbabwe, for 3 years, working into Namibia, Zambia and Tanzania as well.
I also traveled extensively in the region, apart from working.

Most of those countries apart from South Africa make Thailand seem positively first world.



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Quite true . . . but they make up the bulk of countries where simple residence makes it either possible to bring a bike in (albeit expensive, generally) or access something decent on the local market. Singapore, Indonesia, Brunei, Timor or PNG. Nope. The rest aside from the 'Pines - only with a work permit and it must leave with you. I've no direct experience in the Philippines since working there in the middle 90's but . . . forums are full of nightmares.

Registration is the easy part, though not as easy as in Thailand.

Yeah . . . only folks from sub-saharan Africa that I knew weren't terribly troubled by anything in India.

My biggest complaint with Thailand is that it's too easy here.

So . . . I don't get the issues with bringing in the Husky. Tools and spares that are weighty ? You've got to be kidding me. I carry a bead breaker, extra wheel bearings & disc pads, and enough tools to work on carbs, rebuild forks, remove shock, etc on my KTM 950 and my whole kit is barely 20kg (tent, clothes, etc).

So far, so good - a small manufacturer providing a personalised update on progress with bringing the bike to the market.
the Kelso meeting sounds like a photo opportunity for someone. :thumbup1:

You might even get to speak with those who know what internal adjustments are being made and what they expect to achieve.

Very off topic and long....

I'm probably a bit gunshy on the Husky after the cam chain went at just over 6K km. Plus the clutch issues a lot seem to have concern me.
Either of those can happen with under 4000 miles on the clock, even some seem to go over 20k with no issues.
Whatever, the thought of adding the additional tools and spares over what you carry negates a lot of the advantages of riding a bike as light as the Husky (as light as the CRF250L).
Then there is the garage issue: I spend time between 3 cities / towns, and don't have a good workshop in any of them. Spreading finicky European engine internals over the concrete in dust and wind doesn't give me the old warm and fuzzies...

Besides that most of my riding here is Mindanao and Visayas, with a bit in northern Luzon. Very few roads that I ride need more than 200cc to stay well ahead of 99% of the traffic, and the majority I've done just fine on a dualsport Yamaha 125.

I've compared travel times point to point on the YBR, and while the occasional SUV or car comes past, usually I get past them in the next town or road (de)construction, never to see them again.
The 200 makes that even easier.

Another issue on the Husky is that it's not at all good two up, and a lot of my trips here involve a passenger (or 2). The smaller bikes are also far more fuel efficient, are just as comfortable, and have stronger subframes.

And then there's the other guy: I've had several near misses traveling faster than the general traffic. I'd be tempted to go a LOT faster on a bigger bike: BTDT. As it is, the gf and staff don't want to ride much with me anymore because I drive too fast (on the 125...).

By the time I got the Husky shipped and registered, I could have bought 1 or 2 bikes like my 200 or 125.

Also kind of strange, but after many years of bigger bikes, I find I'm enjoying the smaller ones.
The 125 is nowhere near as capable as the 610 off tarmac, yet I have taken it into worse terrain, as it's easy to pick up and move around if I need to, or to paddle through through mud and water. Although being so low and light, I hardly ever have to put a foot down.

The other surprise for me was that the 200 has the easiest standing position of all the bikes I've rented and owned, so while the Husky has way better suspension and power, I am more confident in rough going on the 200.
Admittedly my offroad skills are at best average...

Then there are the small things like tires. Roads here are real slippery at times, I've unintentionally spun up the rear on the 200 several times, and locked the front or slid it out a bit on several bikes. About the best tires I can find are limited to Chen Shin or IRC, other brands I've tried are godawful.
Getting a tire capable of handling even the 45 or so hp on the Husky means shipping from Manila or even overseas.

So, mostly it's just easier and more practical to to go with what's easily available. I can find a Yamaha or Motorstar (Zongshen distributor) dealer or 3 in just about any town or large village, who have an idea what parts can fit if they can't supply, or can bodge a fix, or can point me to a shop that can get it done.

So, long story but that's my reasoning. :-)

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That CCM has some oddball engineering. As much as I like oddball engineering, here are a couple of things that may be "interesting":
- The frame is made from bonded (glued) CNC machined and forged aluminium members. I have no problem with either aluminium alloys or modern adhesives from a strength or durability point of view, but how do you fix crash damage when you are in the middle of nowhere?
- There appears to be no structure around the radiator. Most enduro bikes are the same but radiator guards are commonly used to reinforce them.
- It looks like it has the concentric sprocket/swingarm arrangement. I wonder how easy it will be to change front sprockets in the field...
- Regarding the optional 6 speed transmission, the only way to fit an extra ratio inside the case is to reduce the width (and strength) of the other 5 gears. I think a wider ratio 5 speed would be a better option.
- The engine uses titanium valves, just like the BMW. Titanium has a tendency to gall, in other words it's not great for sliding parts. Titanium valves tend to wear seats and guides faster than stainless valves, which usually means more frequent valve clearance adjustment and cylinder head overhauls. Titanium valves are only used in race engines because they are lighter than stainless steel valves and so have less inertia, and less load on the valve springs at high rpm. If CCM did indeed re-spec the engine with a lower redline, then they would be retarded to continue with titanium valves as stainless ones are cheaper...
- According to the CCM brochure it makes 40.23 hp @ 7000 rpm and 31.6 ft-lbs at 6500 rpm. According to BMW G450X the BMW G450X makes 41 hp @ 7000 rpm and 32 ft-lbs at 6500 rpm. Hrrrmmm not much engine detuning has been done...
- Compression ratio of both engines is 12.0:1 and I suspect they would both need at least 96 RON fuel.
- The fact that they both have the same compression ratio leads me to believe they are both using the same piston. If CCM re-specced the engine components then it would be easy to select a new piston to drop the CR a little. This is standard practice when detuning race engines. The G450X piston has a very short skirt and only 2 piston rings (to reduce friction). This style of piston is common with enduro race engines, and one of the reasons they have to be overhauled so frequently.

To me it seems more like a Dakar race bike than a continent crossing adventure bike.

Nice post...

www.touringted.com

Maybe CCM jumped into their own publicity with the initial spec for the existing version of the G450X engine, while they get on and tweek their own engines toward the stated aims of their new product.

Just a thought, but certainly that post is very good research and a good basis for questions to CCM from anyone who is even half interested in purchasing the bike.

I don't really understand the need for putting that effort into a frame design personally.

How did yamaha overcome those valve issues with the WRR? It also has ti valves, but long service life.

I get the feeling that CCM initially planned on building a competition bike for various international rallies where 450cc is the maximum allowed. If I'm right that explains both the choice of engine, the high tech frame construction and the fact they will seek you a reusable transport crate come mobile workshop. Speaking with the guys at the HUBBUK they definitely seemed to be pushing the idea of ship the bike out, ride/race in the area, then pack up and ship back and didn't quite grasp the whole ride away from home and keep riding till you get back concept. At least they didn't on the Thursday, by Sunday having had ever single person there sit on their bike, compliment it and then ask how you get the petrol in when you've got luggage on the back, they seemed to have the idea that maybe they'd got more than an international rally bike on their hands and that maybe they'd created the bike many travellers have been crying out for.

They seemed truly amazed first that there was such a community of travellers and secondly at the massive welcome their bike would receive.

This would certainly explain some of the delays while they tweak the engine etc to suit the day in day out built rider and personally despite the fact I'll probably never end up buying one hugely welcome a manufacturer into the fold who seems so eager to listen and learn and not just present us with a product and day there you go this is what we and our marketeers think you lot want and need.

It's feasible that there could be more than one model if this is how things are going within CCM.
Clews' Competition Machines may have to change the company name!

The only titanium valved bike I have experience with is the 07 onwards WR450F. The service schedule says check valve clearances every 3rd race or 500 competition kms and inspect valves every 5th race or 1000 competition kms. That's under the most severe race conditions but if you extend that by a factor of 10 for more casual riding, that would mean removing the head for valve inspection every 10,000km.

Similarly for the G450X the valve clearances should be checked after every 20 hours of operation.

I was not aware the WR250R used titanium valves until your post. The little 250 has a couple of factors in it's favour. The valves are smaller and therefore lighter. I'm sure the cams would have less lift than the race 450s, both of these factors would mean softer valves springs and lower seat pressures, which put less stress on the valves. In addition to this Yamaha or someone else may have discovered some magical valve guide and seat materials which drastically increases valve life.

The early Honda CRF450R/X's had a lot of problems with their titanium valves with some lasting as little as 1000km, partly due to side thrust on the valves caused by poor head geometry. It was common to replace these with aftermarket stainless steel valves.

I have researched a bit about G450X stuff because just the other day I was considering converting a G450X into a cross-continent adventure bike. The G450X has a lot of things I like:
-stainless steel frame
-airbox location
-good suspension
-cheap second hand and most seem to have low km courtesy of gentleman riders :)
-modern 450cc engine design which has the potential to be very fuel efficient
-linkageless direct acting rear shock
-R&V Aqualine make a 12L front and 8L rear tank taking total capacity to 28L.

The big obstacle with this bike is the engine. For reference here is a cutaway diagram of the engine showing that piston, which looks similar to the piston from a formula 1 engine:
http://www.bikeme.tv/bm_articles/rid...ts/joel_s3.jpg

To adventurize the engine I would do the following. Costs are my very rough estimates in US dollars:
- Custom 3 ring piston to give CR of about 10.5:1 $500-$1000
- Custom stainless steel valves $1000+
- regrind standard cams with less duration but same lift $500
- Wide ratio 5 speed transmission from Albins Gears $5000
- MicroSquirt ECU $500
- Oil cooler+ tank to increase capacity to at least 4L, $500
- Rebuild engine with new bearings etc + machining + possibly new barrel - $1000-$2000?
- Dyno time $500

Things like the piston and valves are expensive because a lot of the cost goes into the component design and machine setup. If you are buying 4,6 or 8 pistons the cost is amortized over the lot, so the cost per piston is lower.

As you can see nothing is impossible, it just depends if it is worth the cost. It's a totally different proposition for an OEM who can spec the engine before it is built in quantity, in that case it would be cheaper to build than a standard G450X engine. The big question, is CCM having engines built to their specs, or buying a lot of surplus BMW engines?

Then..... Why would you ????

You'd have to have money to burn for such an exercise.

It's a sort of mechanical exploration. You can see the potential but it isn't quite right. People enjoy doing this to all sorts of bikes. You see plenty of Enfields that do exactly what a CB500 would do but cost three times more and are half as reliable. It's as much about getting there and the satisfaction of knowing it is as good as it can be.

As a former afflictee of the condition I can still see the attraction, but yes, the result is still never cost effective or entirely satisfactory. I am now on the path of getting up earlier and riding later rather than trying for an extra 5 HP, jerry cans or more stops rather than modified fuel tanks etc. etc.

Andy

Don't worry Andy, you'll be back to welding two fuel tanks together and reshaping camshafts with an angle grinder before you know it. :rofl:

Reading Alex's post above, even if CCM have suddenly seen the light and realised that their racer in a crate idea could have a bigger market with a few (ok more than a few) mods, I'd bet real money that they won't do it.

It'll stay as a competition orientated bike full of high maintenance / short life bits - maybe at a pinch something to increase the oil capacity might be done and a few other easy bits like fuel tanks might appear if enough people ask but they won't touch the core parts of the engine and it'll stay in the sales catalogue as a competition machine ie you blow it up, you fix it - we'll sell you the parts.

If they make substantial changes and get it wrong the financial consequences could be terminal (again!). If they're going to sell it as an overland orientated road bike it they'll be pitching it more or less untested into the physically toughest market segment there is. The first few they sell with a 1yr warranty to a bunch of rtw warriors are going to come back in carrier bags 11 months later along with a copy of the sale of goods act.

Aye !!!! There's spending £1000 on exhaust, jetting and sparkles to make your bike your own and then there's spending £10,000+ messing around with higher end engineering which might not even be any better. It will probably make it less reliable. harder to fix and a pain to diagnose.

And I'm well versed on wasting money trying to improve bikes. It's almost never worth the cost. And the more you spend, the even less value you get for your money.

eg. Aftermarket exhaust. £200 with a 5% power increase.

Compare that with polishing your head and ports and swapping around valves and cams and it starts costing £1000's. And you're lucky to get 'that' much more power.

If I had more money than I could spend, i'd do it too. However, for the 99.9% of the rest of us, it just seems a bit daft and a waste of money.

I'd still love to see them racing the dakar or being the bike of choice for desert overland holiday companys...

Oh I'm sure they could get a few of them round the Dakar course with enough testing and prep - they managed it back in the late 90's with some Rotax engined bikes and it's a world they have some familiarity with. Desert trail holidays might be a good way to test / promote etc At least they'd only be in semi remote areas with some sort of mechanical backup working on a stitch in time basis.

Not sure how attractive it would be to the operators though. They'd be stuck advertising "ride to the edge of survivability on our CCMs" while everyone else was using Hondas. Many (many) years ago I worked at Silverstone circuit. The driving school there got a great deal on MG Maestros (remember them) and they featured in all the "come and drive the circuit" adverts. Brands Hatch were using BMWs. Guess where the punters went.

You could say the same thing about people who buy a brand new 1200GSA :lol2:


To do this you would have to like swinging the spanners, which I do. I admit it is not for everybody. In fact it is not for 99% of people. I'm confident that if I decide to do it, it will be better, more reliable, and easier for me to fix. I take the view that if you buy a bike with warranty, you are at the mercy of the manufacturer. If you have the means to build your own bike, then you provide your own "warranty", so at least you will know what you're getting :)

In many ways modification of motorbikes is not as popular as it used to be, and not as popular as modifying cars. Apart from customizing, whether it's Touratech farkles or leather tassles for the Orange County crowd, not many people modify their bikes. Looks at sportsbikes, motocross and competition enduro bikes. Every year they get a little lighter, a little more power, more mass centralized, with improved suspension. There is absolutely no need to modify them because it's impossible to do a better job than the factory. The G450X was designed to be competitive at national enduro level out of the box. All the rider has to do is get the suspension set up to suit his weight and preference, and remove the restrictors that have been added to make t road legal. Stock standard 450 motocross bikes now have so much power and performance that they are too much for club racers to handle, and arguably also for many national level competitors. The same goes for 1000c supersport bikes on the track. The factory performance is so great there is no need to modify.

What about adventure bikes? Is the KLR/DR/XR/XT the pinnacle of 25 years of manufacturer development and evolution? How does BMW get shorter service life out of a final drive bearing than a chain? How about building an engine with 12:1 compression ratio and no knock sensor? Can I do better? I reckon I can.


You are 100% correct. Modifying cars/bikes is a hobby for me. And relatively cheap compared to some other people's hobbies such as boats and horses. Although I always seem to be operating on the edge of my means doh

I like spannering. I do it every day.. It's my job. And before my job it was my hobby.

I do loads of tinkering and prepping/tuning but I like to keep it value for money.

That's my point really..

I could never justify spending £5000 on a custom gearbox when I could spend that traveling Asia for half a year :)

Some people can do both.

I'm not sure what the reason of selecting this engine is. Maybe they got a great deal, maybe they wanted to add the BM branding power, maybe they like to aim at performance more than ADV readiness.

I'm not across the options out there, but I'd trade in performance over other things like better gearing and other things mentioned happily I think.

I recently came across this option the other day.

FX Bikes Mountain Moto World’s Lightest Motorcycles 125lb 125cc 125mpg

It's not an ADV spec bike yet. They're developing one with 600km range, but even then it won't get the vast majority op people excited. This is not for Ruta 40, more for some dotted trail through Asia, or river bids and donkey trails in Africa. I'm at a point now that I'm starting to look for something a bit different to a now typical intercontinental adventure ride. I think more people are too hence this growing interest into smaller bikes.
But the more I started looking into the equipment they selected the more excited and I became. Using a boring old but common as shit engine in something weighing a total of 57kg can produce something exciting (apparently).

Hobby, Vocation, Obsession
 

This seems to cover the spectrum from hobby to obsession. But I'm with Ted . . . I'd rather have a bit less bike and alot more time (and experiences) riding it than something closer to "driveway jewelry" that may well be either incredible engineering or incredible chrome but doesn't see alot of kms.

At least this ins't like a 600cc sportbike thread where opinions are offered regarding bikes that are all significantly better that the opinion holders. (Well, maybe it's not so different.) But it's clear that one can buy a very nice 600cc sportbike that's a choice of which flavor to you like best. Adventure and dual sport bikes . . . it's closer to the Malcolm Smith days and significant modifications are required for significant challenges.

I'd be much more interested if they planned to introduce a somewhat street-legal model. Would you know anything about that?

I've put my name down for 2, but not sure which 2.

He told me they are currently working on US street legality. Not sure on which model they do that with, but I'm sure it's a tickbox exercise that can transfer across models.

It would make sense to do this with an ADV model rather than a trail model.

Interesting. An added 40 lbs. for lighting, stator, wiring and random acoutrements would still leave it plenty lightweight. I was out riding my mountainbike tonight, and trying to imagine having one of those machines on the kinds of trails I ride. I could see it being great fun....but probably not enough fun to trailer it around. If I could ride it on the street to access the endless networks of logging roads in our local foothills, that might be worth the price of admission.

My thinking as well.

Shouldn't need a trailer at that weight though. A hitch mounted rack would work just fine. You just lift it on there. No ramp necessary.

You mis-read it. I said there are people who enjoy the riding AS MUCH as the travelling. I get huge pleasure out of riding to places and villages that haven't been visited before. You twisted a post that was clearly stating that for some people the riding is as important as the travelling into "the travelling doesnt matter" just so you could make a point.

See above. I am not interested in riding off road in western europe. Its not why I buy a bike. Its not why I choose a particular model. Its not what floats my boat. I am quite capable of deciding what riding I want to do. Suggesting I shouldn't be RTWing is just an absurd suggestion.

Again, its more than a little bit patronising. I have been adventuring in the third world for 20 years. I know my limits, and I am perfectly capable of choosing my own risk reward balance when it comes to riding.

But its more than patronising, its totally contradictory to why people are here on this site at all. The idea that 'because medical services are worse than in the west we all should plod along on a slow old boat and just be happy with it, because anything else is somehow foolhardy', is the opinion of someone who has given up challenging himself. If that opinion had any validity, then why travel to the third world at all? Its inherently risky. Traffic is more dangerous, emergency services are still worse, even if you potter around on a C90. Better to travel in a Volvo 4WD if we dont like risk. Why take any risk at all? Lets all stay at home in the suburbs and forget this whole adventure concept altogether.

Again, thats fine for you, but not everyone subscribes to one level of risk. There are guys on the site who love going into danger zones. There are others who prefer sticking to main roads in developed countries. Its certainly not for you to proscribe an appropriate amount of risk for HUBB users.

Horizons Unlimited exists to help people find the right risk-reward balance for themselves. Thats what all the information is here for in the end. Its not about eliminating risk, or minimising risk. Its about choosing the level of risk that suits the individuals risk appetite.

A few years back we submitted an article to the BMF Journal (and others) about our travels in Africa which were probably very tame by Walters standards. We received a very strong letter from the editor telling us that it was extremely irresponsable of us to undertake such a trip and that he wouldn't consider publishing the article as it may encourage others to take on similar risky adventures.

However, I don't agree that "Horizons Unlimited exists to help people find the right risk-reward balance for themselves. Thats what all the information is here for in the end." Some people in here are just looking for information on travelling to foreign parts, equipment, bikes etc or just enjoy reading about other peoples experiences. Not many, I suspect, consider the risk factors before they set off on their first trip especially related to the type of terrain or the medical support. More people worry about not speaking the language than they do about exceeding their riding abilities.

While some of the questions on HUBB are regarding procedural questions, most of them seem to be in some way related to assessing risk or degree of difficulty. Road condition questions, language necessity questions, etc are all related to risk return evaluation. Most route planning discussion is either about how difficult a route is or what is worth seeing there - 100% a risk return discussion. Even bike selection is all about risk return. The return being the either tge Fun u have on a particular bike or maybe even the personal satisfaction someone gets for riding his super tenere across the Gobi when others said he is nuts to bother trying. The risk being either mechanical or the risk of not having fun.

Sure there are some questions like where is the best place to apply for visa x or what oil is best, but most questions do somehow come back to risk vs reward and trying to clarify how much risk and how much reward there is is in a particular choice.

I gotta say I REALLY don't consider my stuff particularly risky. I tend to research stuff pretty thoroughly. Thats a huge uncertainty mitigator. I think someone else unprepared and without language doing exactly the same trip could be taking on a very different level of risk. Level of risk is specific to each set of circumstances. Many aspects of recent trips I have done I would never do alone, as the risk would be too high for my tastes. Yet even with a single co-rider, I feel happy with the risk level. Even number of and riding skill levels of your companions is a big factor when it comes to assessing risk. I dont ride as aggressively when alone as when I have the back up factor of having companions with me. There are some routes I would not do alone, but would be comfortable even with an off road novice as back up (like the Old Summer Road).

There are some bikes I have been considering for years but have not pulled the trigger on getting one and building it up because I am concerned that the lesser reliability of a certain bike introduces a whole new layer of risk, which bearing in mind the remoteness of areas I like riding, becomes a risk factor too far.

So not only is the appropriate amount of risk an individual wants to take on very subjective, but even the objective measure of that risk is totally unique for each individual trip, and depends on such a diverse amount of factors including the number and riding skill of your companions, the reliability or perceived reliability of your and your companions bikes, as well as the more obvious ones such as the political stability and general security of the area you are travelling to, your riding skill level, your adventuring experience, your mechanical skill as it applies to your motorcycle, your ability to speak local languages, your preparedness for local road or trail surface, weather, food conditions etc.

Risk, and how you shape and manage that risk is very much an individual thing. There have been 3-4 trips on here (a couple of cycle trips, a car trip and a moto trip) in the last 6-12 months that have made me think ... Fu@k me thats a much ballsier risk appetite than I have - and that's in areas where I generally feel most comfortable - former soviet Eurasia. But thats just my outside view. Maybe on the inside it wasnt that risky. Maybe they did the research and found its actually pretty do-able and the risk is manageable. Or maybe they just have a mega risk appetite. Either way, I dont think my own risk appetite is particularly high. It might look that way from the outside, but on the inside I have a lot of risk mitigating factors working for me. There is method in the madness.

A bike journal lecturing on risks and safety. That's a good one.

What a load of BS to talk up risks overseas. Where is the boundary there? Before immigration or customs?

I think the G450X engine is the only light enduro/rally engine with high power and compliant with the tough Euro3 emissions legislation (which you need to get it licensed in Europe).
It has 40 HP in Euro3 mode and 50 HP in racing mode (different exhaust and power plug / switch - both used to come with the bike).
If I'm not mistaken KTM and Husaberg has 10-15 HP in Euro3 mode.

The G450X engine is also known to be pretty robust, if you compare it to other race-bikes. Personally I think it's a nice engine for racing, I'm not sure how it will work in the long term.

MCN video link below. Bottom line seems to be 'not finished yet but a lot better than expected'

CCM GP450 Adventure | Road Tests | Motorcyclenews.com - YouTube

Well the attempt at commentary in the vid does say that the CCM version of the engine is de-tuned, and it mentions the 40HP figure which is enough for a 450cc in a non-racing mode.

It's growing on me, but real world test rides, i.e. beta testers to put in some distance/time on the bike, are now needed.

Looks fragile..........

However, if they want to give me one (along with £20,000), I'll happily do a RTW 12 month test for them..

I reckon it looks great. Pity they couldn't find any decent off road to film it on.

On the other hand, the Lake District is just up the road from CCMs' place so they didn't spend a load of cash on shipping bikes, for journo trips, to Spain/Maroc and similar exotic locations.

Maybe there is only one GP450 available for testing at present??

In standard form I think the WR450F engine is more durable. At least the piston has 3 rings.

The max permissable oil consumption on a G450X is 100ml per hour of riding, which is a lot. The engine holds 1.15 litres. To put that in perspective, A KTM 2-stroke uses a fuel:oil mix of 50:1. So if the 2 stroke uses 5 L of fuel per hour, it will also use 100ml of oil. 100ml/hr is at the upper end for the BMW and means the engine is due for a rebuild, but it is still a lot.

The WR is pretty good, but isn't the euro3-version limited to 9kW?


On the other hand I can't see that the G450X engine is detuned, it used to be 40 hp in euro3-mode and 50 hp in racing-mode. The only difference is that now you have to pay for the parts to get 50 HP.

Hehe, my 400EXC burns 150 ml/hr and it's pretty hard to pass me in that fog :thumbup1: Time for a rebuild...

some nice pics and a review from a test ride of the prototype http://www.adventurebikerider.com/co...18-nathan.html

Thanks for the link. Nathan also provided a link to his writeup at http://www.adventurebikerider.com/co...18-nathan.html.

Some interesting stuff in there, including that the bike has a 1 liter oil capacity, and that they don't plan on increasing it.
That's what my 125 and 200 have, and those specify 2000 km oil changes, not 5000 miles...

I wonder if they will be sticking with the low front fender on the production model?
One of my bikes has a split high front / lowish rear, and I've had to clear mud and stones from the rear section before.

The other thing I noticed was the projected 15k miles engine strip down.
Maybe that's a good reason to take advantage of the reputed £1500 crate motor: something like shipping tires ahead. Work out where you will be around the 15k mark, and swap in the new motor, shipping the old one back to the factory for maintenance. :-D

This bike looks like it would work well for the riding I bought my Husky 610 for: northern New England off-pavement touring, TAT and the Continental Divide Trail.

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I bought the idiot rag as I had time to kill. Pretty fair test on the CCM but not a lot more detail than the posts above and the video. The engine strip down thing would be a killer for me but I would make the effort to go see one in the flesh and talk about it.

:offtopic:MCN also had a hilarious spread, big vs small adventure bikes. The "little" Triumph 800 is better than their 1200 but the F800 doesn't cut it again the 1200GS for anyone who needs a proper bike :confused1:doh:thumbdown:. I think they loaded the script from a Ewan and Charlie into their Journotron 3000 and let it write what it normally writes in the knee down-wheelie- 3 kg lighter than last year - knee down - wheelie mode. Can't wait for next months 800-1200 cc Adventure bike shoot out at in Valencia :rofl:

Best bit was a single column that said they might bring the SR400 to the UK. 25 horses in a frame the same shape as Ted Simon used, built without 1930's metallurgy. Suits me Sir :clap:

Andy

Maybe they should rename it the "Short Adventure".......

Go forth and conquer the world.... Just rebuild the engine before you get out of Europe... doh

15.000 miles before rebuild is extremely good for an engine of this type, my EXC was more or less toast before 4.000 miles.

It will get you to Cape Town (from Europe), but not back.

From what I hear there is a long skirt piston for the 450 engine available - maybe ccm have chosen to fit this in the final set up - who knows ? has anyone asked that would extend engine life a bit - along with the fact they have dropped 1500 revs from the top end with the limiter, remapped the ignition and advance all of which softens the stress on an engine - one designed to be revved to the limit all out, so i would think those factors alone would extend the bottom end life by a huge amount, if they do fit the long skirt piston that would also make a massive difference to wear on the barrel and piston - still not sure about the 1.25 oil capacity seems small but I am used to bigger bikes air cooled etc - yet with the above softening of the engine the oil is not going to get the same pounding and burning and with high quality modern oil the life span is petty good, but with that quantity I would be changing it every 2 - 3000 miles anyway - top gear featured a car last year that had oil change intervile of 100,000 so maybe 5000 in a detuned 450 is not as bad as they say. The 15000 mile rebuild if thats a reality would be a pain but i assume its only top end - piston valves and guides - which would not be a show stopper in reality a days work - the word is that the bmw g450x was warrantied for 36 month as an enduro machine - thus the reason for the massive maintenance schedule from BMW could it be in place so that they maybe never had to pay out for a warranty claim ?.I also see that there is an aussie lad has done over 30,000 on a 52hp g450x without a strip down - maybe he doesnt ride that till its screaming for mercy - so maybe all the rebuild stuff is just hot air and wind - scaremongering about the unknown !. I dont know till i talk to them in a few weeks time at the factory.

I think if it actually took off then CCM or another company might start knocking out auxiliary oil tanks.. Along with plenty of other 'life extending' goodies such as relaxed cams, pistons and injection mapping.

oil quantity doesn't bother me too much. My DRZ took under 2L and that was fine. I'd just change oil twice as often as they recommend.

IIRC, the XT225, serow, engine contains 0.9L in the wet sump design.
It's an old tech, air cooled, engine design with soft delivery of power but they seem to work well on this - the rider just has to keep an eye on the oil level.

I'm guessing that the dealer network is not going to be huge (based on the manufacturer aim to provide the backup service of shipping a replacement engine anywhere in the world and the small market for specialist bikes).

Seeing it in the flesh may be a case of go & try one out in Bolton (still looking forward to that report!).

where can I get me one of those...

Good point by Ali B too.

Surely the whole engine wont be shagged in 15k, they never are, that's what's so annoying.
But if it's an exchange deal like a car alternator, sounds like good recycling practice to me.
I've come back from 5000-mile desert trips with a Tenere motor in poor shape and have heard of a typical air-cooled 250 being rooted after an AK to TdF.

Best outcome (for us) might be if the Japs take up the 450 adv concept.

Ch

Like a long life, large oil volume WR450 that looks like this?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...00_3410blu.jpg

not Jap but...
 

Yes, or the KTM 390 Allrad I just noticed in another HU post. Looks a bit heavy.

Ch

Yes ... looks a bit heavy in that pic, cause they used a pic of an 1190 Adventure with the 390 Allroad article :confused1:

There's nothing like quality journalism ... and that indeed was nothing like quality journalism

http://www.biketoq.com/wp-content/up...dventure-2.jpg

My wife's Mini has an oil change interval of 20,000 miles. What in God's name are we considering with this go anywhere bike - I buy one and change the engine at the same time as I'm doing an oil change on the car. All I'd be asking the thing to do is propel itself down the road at fairly mediocre speeds. I don't want to ride it to the moon, just to Tesco's. If it can't do that without the core part converting itself to scrap before the car engine is run in then there's something fundamentally wrong with it.

Back at the dawn of time when I started traveling / touring etc we used small air cooled two strokes and we'd get about 25,000+ miles out of them before they needed rebuilding. Forty years later we're considering a service life of half that on an engine twice the size!

Is there really a long life piston available? If there is presumably the long skirt bit means it weighs more. How's that going to affect the engine balance - am I going to get double vision riding it? Do I get an extra 10K miles at the cost of my fillings falling out? My current CCM really did give me double vision from wheel imbalance when I bought it. Good luck with trying to get an engine balance problem sorted out.

You can see why KTM would go for it. An existing range of engines in the baby Dukes, a production plant in India to make the most of, a burgeoning bike market in the sub-continent, a customer base not inculcated to believe that you need big engines to have a better bike and poor roads.

I'm surprised it took them so long.

Incidentally why don't more bike manufacturers follow KTM's lead with the baby Duke range. One bike, three different engine sizes. After all cars have been like that for years.

I agree with you if the engine does have ridiculous short life then the engine is wrong for the bikes proposed usage as a long travel adventure bike and then it becomes limited to a short distance travel bike crossover with a green laner. ( which i think it is anyway no matter what label we stick on it) What we do not yet know are if any changes have been made to the engine prior to production and how engine life is expected to pan out after those changes have been done, I am told that Mr Clews said that some top end changes had or were being made. As for the long skirt piston I have looked and can't find it anywhere but it is referred to in the g450x forums as well as a 480 big bore racing kit and not topical for this bike really. I simply do not know and think it unlikely that the design has been changed but know one knows at this time. If it was it does not mean it needs to vibrate or upset engine balance - I have fitted different pistons (bigger bore) in engines before - but they have weighed less than the originals - so sorting out balance / weight etc is for the piston manufacturer and would make a none starter of an argument I think.
I also wonder why everyone seems to think this or every bike on this forum has to be good and able to go round the world ? to be honest most modern bikes in my opinion are worse than useless for this task as they are too complex. More so I have always said that some peoples idea of an adventure may be very different to another persons maybe a trip to Scotland, to France or to Russia and beyond we are all different with different time, money and targets. So the bike we choose or not choose will meet our different needs. I have changed direction on the bikes i have always favoured - I now want a small lightweight bike with enough power to use on the roads around the UK, to travel a few thousand mile here abroad on back roads and light trails and maybe go around Iceland or into the fringes of Northern Russia, I do not need or require the bigger bikes i used to ride as I wont travel too far nor will i ever have a passenger as i always did before - so if I can sort out the life of the engine as being reasonable and affordable in return giving really good power then this bike may well fit my needs. Then again it may not I will know in a few weeks time.

Well, it's all fairly academic for me because unless my lottery numbers come up I won't be in the market for one until they're cheap enough secondhand that I could buy one without my wife noticing. Which if previous CCM depreciation kicks in should be about Xmas. I just think we've been talking about the biking equivalent of one of my daughter's friends - very pretty to look at but highly strung and expensive to run.

Ted mentioned earlier the list of things that he needed to do to his DRZ to get it to survive a trip down the length of Africa - a whole bunch of parts that needed to be replaced with upgrades to fix shortcomings in the original. All of these came from the aftermarket world but DRZs are so common you trip over them in the street so there's a market there to be served. What's CCM's predicted production run? - 2/3/400? No one's going to produce parts for 50 early adopters and 200 bikes stuck in showrooms, or if they do it's going to be for the market they know - racing. Someone coming back with the bike smoking like a WW2 destroyer after a 10K miles trip to India and back is going to be queuing for overpriced parts alongside some hot shot weekend racer spending all his "T-Bone, Family Butcher Race Team" sponsorship money.

Everyone, I'm sure, has their own idea of what makes an ideal overlanding bike. Bitter experience makes mine something that I know will start and move under its own power when I stagger out of a tent in the middle of the Sahara with a hangover to find it buried up the wheel spindles in sand and no memory of how it got there. The CCM may do that, I just don't think it will do it for long enough to make it down to the part of the market I inhabit.

:thumbup1: If you buy a bike with a slightly detuned race-engine you should buy it for having fun and not for longevity.
My guess is that 99% of the adventure-trips (whatever that is) is shorter then 15.000 miles anyway.

It's not the kind of bike I would have bought but I find it interesting, and it's cool that someone make a cheap version of a PD-bike.

I used to spend a lot of money on bikes (and snowmobiles and ATVs and so on), but now I'm living a lot more frugally, so the projected price is fairly significant.

And 15k isn't a lot of miles, I used to do that and more per year when I commuted part time on the bike (northern New England winters aren't conducive to 250 mile cimmutes).

I've put on that much in a 3rd world environment over the last year I've been in-country. I can buy either of the bikes I've been using for less than the cost of the CCM motor.

For what some are stating, the CCM will work great for them, basically limited distance touring and fun rides.

Those just aren't my needs anymore, I need something 3rd world robust (can take handle heavy loads and bad road conditions), is easy to service, has good parts availability, is cheap to run and that's reliable day in, day out.
There aren't many machines like that sold in the West anymore.

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There must be a long list of questions that you have written down by now.
I hope you can get satisfactory answers to them all from one factory visit/test ride.

I have been wondering if this bike will turn up on the PD in South America in 2014; cheap it is compared with the exotic stuff in that race. After all, the prototype has CCM-racing in the logos (on the swingarm), IIRC from the video.

They are available in the UK; there are plenty of dealers selling 125cc bikes including the YBR that you favour at present.
+ the Chinese are coming, if one believes some of the press - there has always been a (small) market in the west for Chinese bikes, but it is reported that the importers will "up their game" in the near future.
Then there is the manufacturing that is going on in India, which may well export in this direction.

15000 miles is currently 3 years usage for me. If I had a good first or second year and did 12000 I'd either have to trade in before my three year plan or pay the huge bill on a bike I'd sell 6 months later, or be limited in where I might go. Not RTW but something that doesn't fit the profile I want.

Another Wee/Glee or similar might be a lardy semi-road bike with way too much performance I'll never use but it is now part of the choice. I'd hoped the CCM was better off road, just as good at legal road speeds and the same on service hassle.

Andy

Yeah... Not many trips are 15,000 miles long. But do you want to ride a bike to it's limit..

It would play mind games on you constantly.

Getting to the real reality of the situation. Do you want to be getting to the end of a 10,000 miles(ish) long trip and instead of thinking ' To hell with it, I'm going to keep going another 10,000 miles' , you're thinking ' Sh*t, I need to ship my bike back home to swap the engine'....

:nono:

It would probably not explode at 15.001 miles. It's an estimate (like I estimate 100.000 miles for a clutch on my BMW or 150 hours on my KTM).

Some of the standard (not detuned) G450X's have reported 35.000 miles without major problems. Do you have any expereince with G450X from your work?

Note:
Have to go now and pack my alu-boxes, leaving for a ultra-short adventure tomorrow. :offtopic:

Yeah... I see what you're saying but I wouldn't trust one to get to 15,000 without a glitch let alone 30,000..

As you know, a minor glitch in your home town can become a major show stopping headache in the "3rd world"..

As for my experience.... I've only been a beemer tech for 6 months and I've still not seen a single one come through our workshop or showroom.

In six months, I've only seen two F650's too.

I guess it comes to a point with owning BMW that paying £240 quid for a service stops making sense.

Shame really because these bikes need main dealer love much more than other brands.

Walkabout -
There must be a long list of questions that you have written down by now.
I hope you can get satisfactory answers to them all from one factory visit/test ride.

Yes i do have a long list of questions - I think I will get answers to some but would not expect answers to all of them as they probably do not have all the answers - that said they have answered quite a few points I brought up with them so far. If you don't ask then you really wont get an answer - its better I would think to go see and ask - better that is than all this pulling down of a company and a machine before its even got off its knees. At the end of the day its just a single cylinder 4 valve engine - we are not talking about star trek's enterprise's anti matter propulsion system are we - It would be interesting to know how many people have gone and bought a bike without all this debate and well - just managed. I think most of us have over the years.

My average mileage now will be fairly low - so the bike would probably last me quite well and for a good few years - if the chassis and running gear is well put together then the engine work when required would give me a project over the dark winter months - as I will no longer be riding during the winter. But I do like a project in the garage these days - goes with the pipe smoking jacket and slippers.

:stupid:

A mate of mine took his Husaberg 570 (also a two ring racing piston and 12:1 compression job) on a 20,000 mile / 32,000 km mostly off road ride from Chile to Montana over 6 months last year ... without so much as a SINGLE engine issue. All he did was oil changes about every 3000 miles / 5000 km (about 2-3 times LESS frequently than the manual says).

That was they picture that they put on the 390 article,
that is why i used it.
I did not know that it was the 1190 KTM.

I was thinking of something a bit bigger than the 125s. 125s work great in much of SE Asia, but as roads get more 'civilized', they become straighter and smoother and I more powerful vehicle can be useful.

I'd say the 350 to 650 class single cylinder bikes should be good workhorses almost anywhere, but most of the bikes in this class don't get great gas mileage or have substandard subframes or are overly complex.

I tend to agree that the Chinese and Indian manufacturers will likely become major players in this segment on the world market, if not in the West.
They are already making major inroads in most 3rd world countries in the sub-250cc sector, and many of the 'Japanese' bikes sold here are in fact built in China, India, Thailand and similar countries.
My Yamaha 125 was built in China, and many of the Kawasakis sold here are wholly designed and built in India.

Based on the Chinese bikes I've ridden over the last few years, quality and design have improved substantially.
Most of the issues I've seen are importer induced, either at assembly or service time, or specifying low end components to get a rock bottom price.




Sent from my A898 Duo using Tapatalk 2

You weren't the only one ;-)

I see the picture of the 1190 featured in the motoroids.com article linked from your HU thread is now missing.

This pic has turned up on the internet:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...90931006_n.jpg

But its clearly a photoshop job, mostly a 450 rally, with a front 1190 fairing and a freeride frame blended on

The rebuild interval of spark ignition engines varies from 1,000,000+ km for a Ford Barra (Aussie Taxi motor) to 5 seconds of full throttle for a Top Fuel dragster. All other engines are somewhere in between. Perhaps the best way to understand the differences this is to look at what is done to convert a standard production engine to a race engine. I will ignore the cylinder head and concentrate on the bottom end. If someone asked me to develop a standard DRZ400E into a MX/Enduro race motor, here is what I would do:
1. Increase compression ratio to 12.5:1 since it will only ever run on fresh, high quality premium fuel.
2. Make the engine as oversquare as possible by boring the cylinder and having a short stroke crank made.
3. Find the lightest possible piston (i.e. short skirt) to increase redline and improve throttle response. Also specify the lightest possible conrod, crank, flywheel and clutch.
4. Reduce friction in the engine by only specifying 1 oil control ring on said piston. Also reduce the width and diameter of all bearings in the engine for the same reason.
5. Minimize weight and improve packaging by decreasing sump capacity to 1 litre. Not a big deal as the engine will be serviced at the end of each days racing.

Of these mods 1, 3, 4 and 5 will decrease engine life by varying amounts. 2 will increase fuel consumption and 4 will decrease it. In a nutshell those things are the difference between a G450X engine and a KLR engine.

With the piston thing, it helps to understand how a piston works. The piston rocks back and forth on the gudegeon/wrist pin as the crank rotates. It "floats" in the bore on a film of oil between the skirt and cylinder wall. The rings are for sealing, not to support the piston. The easiest way to reduce piston weight is to cut down the skirt. The problem with this is there is less area to support the piston and since pressure=force/area, the pressure of the skirt against the cylinder wall will increase. More pressure on oil film supporting piston = greater chance of metal to metal contact = bore scuffing. Bore scuffing will always occur much sooner with a short skirt piston compared to a regular piston.

One of the easiest ways to increase power in a race engine is to reduce friction. Pistons usually have 3 rings. The top ring or compression ring seals the combustion chamber and prevents combustion gases blowing past the piston. Below that are usually 2 oil control rings, whose job it is to scrape most of the oil off the cylinder wall to prevent it getting burnt in the combustion chamber, but leaving just enough to lubricate the skirt and compression ring. To reduce friction we can get rid of one of these oil control rings and the engine will run just fine - while it is new. Over time our oil control ring will wear and lose tension, and if there is only one of them, oil consumption will increase dramatically. Not a big deal in a race engine that gets frequent rebuilds.

Incidentally it is common for car manufacturers to do something similar. But instead of only using 1 oil ring, they use 2 low tension oil rings. It reduces friction, reduces fuel consumption and reduces engine life. They don't care about the reduced engine life as long as it gets through warranty. Fuel economy is so important for new cars these days that it is worth it for them. Pity oil consumption isn't measured in the same way. doh

The piston and conrod weight is balanced by the crankshaft counter weights. It will be impossible to find a medium skirt 3 ring piston that weighs the same as the short skirt 2 ring race piston. To balance the heavier piston tungsten inserts can be added to the crank counter weights. Any engine balancer worth his/her salt should be able to do this.

You make some good points. I have posted in this thread to point out some of the possible pitfalls of using an unmodified G450X engine in an overland travel bike, which is what I think some of the people on this forum are seeing the CCM as. Of course it remains to be seen if the CCM incarnation of this engine is infact re-engineered.

As an engine is on it's way out, performance and fuel economy decreases due to poor ring seal, and oil consumption increases, again due to poor ring seal. If the engine uses a dykes style compression ring then blow-by won't be a problem, the oil consumption will come under high vacuum over-run on a closed throttle. Think coasting down a big hill. Gentle riding won't help in this situation.

35,000 miles or kms on a G450x engine? Either is within the realms of possibility but highy dependent on riding style, usage and maintenance. Just like a KLR can go 7 times that distance without the engine being opened. How many people are prepared for 1/7th the service life of a KLR? If the "average" KLR goes 100,000km, the "average" G450X may go 14,000km? What constitutes "major problems". Motocross guys regard rings and bearings as normal service items on the modern 4 strokes.

I have been following this thread and all other news relating to this upcoming CCM as imho they have really created my ideal of what an "adventure bike" should be and are building something that's truly innovative and against the current trend of big and heavy. I went last weekend to Bagshot (UK) where CCM had organised a day of test riding on and off road of their prototypes. There were two bikes available to test : one with a regular seat height (890mm) and one with a low seat height (790mm). I rode the low seat height (I'm 5'5" and 890mm is too tall for me) and wanted to share my observations.

1) Bike looks better in the flesh than on photos. It has something graceful, elegant about it.
2) It was a prototype so difficult to judge fit and finish.
3) The (potentially worrisome) mix of off the shelf and custom components feels very high quality (and goes a long way to justifying the price). It's much more qualitative than, say, a BMW G650GS.
4) Engine is punchy (but also slightly vibey). Fuel injection mapping still needs some work as very snatchy at low revs.
5) All the promise of lightweight joy comes true and with the very stiff bonded chassis, this bike handles telepathically. Fantastic handling both on and off road. I truly loved it !!! Great upright riding position with bars positioned perfectly for comfort but also for standing on the pegs.

All in all a fantastic bike and a lot of fun to ride.

What truly sets it apart for me though are the people from CCM who were there to show it. Real pride and passion in what they were building shared with a real desire to get customer feedback so that they could build the very best bike possible (and accessories to go with it, their soft luggage prototype was amazing). It just felt very different to the corporate marketing hoopla we get from all the big bike manufacturers. I don't know any manufacturers that allow prospective customers to ride their prototypes with the aim of getting feedback whilst promoting the product. The experience was so good, I felt I owed it to them to share (hence my very first post on HUBB).

That's an excellent contribution to the HUBB and :welcome:

+1.

Welcome and thanks.

You dont work/own CCM do you??:innocent:

Hhahha only joking good post:scooter:

No I don't. I wish ... :innocent:

Did make me laugh though :laugh: