Hi Tim - as you know, I was another early adopter of the XT660Z (in 2008), and like you for a long time considered it the best 'out-of-the-box' RTW style bike, and still do to be honest...

To answer your question - I think the T700 will have everything the 660Z had going for it, just ten years on...

In the meantime, while all the other manufacturers have stuffed their bikes full of electronic 'aids' and other marketing flim-flam, the new Tenere is reassuringly simple - something that manufacturers (of both two and four wheels) seem to forget is important to some people.

Of course the Starbucks crowd are going to get a hard-on about all the gubbins KTM are sticking on their bikes these days (traction control on a 690 thumper, really?), but as you know - out in the real world none of that crap matters - certainly not more than an inherently strong, simple and reliable machine.

As the old saying goes: If it ain't there, it can't go wrong or get broken...

I applaud Yamaha for sticking to their original Tenere ethos in that regard.

Jenny x

ps. I'm not saying there is not a place for uber-tech (although I'd question its validity on a genuine all-terrain bike that is actually going to be used in adverse riding conditions with any regularity) - but that in a broad market, filled with multiple manufacturers, why do we expect everyone to make exactly the same thing?

Leave the techno stuff to BMW and Ducati (and KTM, bless em), and similarly leave the opposite end of the market to the likes of Royal Enfield... I'd say this new Yamaha sits somewhere in the middle, above the KLR and below the F850... I'd say that is bang-on niche filling?

I also bought a 660Z soon after they came out, took it straight to Morocco and enjoyed it immensely for what it was, despite it weighing some 30% more than my original ’83 600Z.
But I’ve had enough big singles and have long said a mid-sized P-twin makes a much better do-it-all, travel bike motor. Sadly, for me the amazingly economical CB500X was not that motor, but the grunty 270° CP2 sure is.

The only thing I’d miss are TL tyres but I now know there are various ways of achieving that.
I’ve never knowingly ridden a bike with traction control, cornering ABS, off-road ABS or ride modes – things that I mostly associate with keeping crazy-horsepower sports bike riders from clogging up the wards.
Why would a torquey, 70-hp bike need ride modes? Because it can? If conditions are slippery, back off.
Having run an XSR7 for a year, the same, proven 70-hp* motor will do me nicely.
So will a 16-L tank, if the XT7 also averages 26kpl (400km).

(*I keep forgetting my XSR was restricted to ~48hp, tbh I never noticed as there was never a need to go over 6k rpm).

Along with the 850GS (probably), we are lucky enough to finally have such a choice of brilliant machines offering an alternative to the quarter-ton tanks and the 790 is one of them.
It will be much discussed and rightly admired, but like all KTMs, bought by the relatively few who value (or can use) it’s off-road attributes – or that image.
Meanwhile, the less dazzlingly sophisticated T700 will be a hit, like just about all the Teneres before it.
So it's taken years from being announced to reaching UK shops. So did the AT, iirc. Is there a hurry?

I’m afraid I really don’t know what that means ;-)

Abject buffoons, obviously! (remind me when 'the season' is again?)

The T7 will be a sales hit for sure based on price alone it offers a good spec and a great all round platform.

It's too big for me, I'd love the engine but I don't need the height and weight so I'm looking at the smaller (cheaper end of the scale) if KTM bring out the 390 Adventure which lets be honest they could have developed a good one within a year of the 390 bikes coming to market, I might be interested however I wish yamaha would make a smaller lighter tenere using their mt03 engine as I think this would do everything I'm looking for and be even more affordable.:scooter::scooter:

JMo hinted at a 300 cc Honda a while back too

I think the company that gets a good small adventure bike out soon for around the 5 grand mark will really see some great sales

Triumph had the same attitude in the 1960s and 1970s—who needs anything more than a four-speed gearbox, who needs engines that don't leak oil? And Honda and the other Japanese manufacturers walked all over them.

And I bought Honda. With champagne tastes I really wanted the CB750/4 but my beer money salary dictated that I had to make do with the fabulous Honda 400/4, a wonderfully smooth four-cylinder engine with a six-speed gearbox that I took all over Europe.

https://www.bosch-presse.de/presspor...-21771-e-2.jpg

For safety reasons ABS is now mandatory on motorbikes including the T700 and in the last twenty years the weight has become insignificant, as the chart above shows. Cornering ABS is a brilliant safety concept that recognises ABS needs to be more sensitive when cornering. It probably only adds a few grams in weight for the sensors but the T700 doesn't have it. Offroad ABS is a simple switch that allows the rider to maintain a reduced ABS function on the front wheel whilst turning it off on the rear to enable slide turns. With the T700 ABS is either all on or all off; there is no offroad mode. How much money did that save?

A lot of experienced riders will say the best traction control available is their right hand on the throttle, but the reality is that you can't get the mix of traction and limited slip that an electronic system will provide. So there will be times when a T700 won't make it up a difficult slope yet another bike with traction control will. Is having traction control somehow 'cheating'? Well if it is, so are knobbly tyres and we should all go back to road tyres.

Sure, I recognise (but don't particularly agree with) the argument that the more bits of complexity are added to a bike, the more there is to go wrong—that's the 1960s Triumph head set again.

no it won't, wanna bet? :)

BTW, T7 offer which good specs...don't see any.
This bike cannot be even compared to xt660z, which was tough, reliable machine and T7 engine is..well, too delicate IMO

The 790 probably inherited all the snazzy electronics from the road bike version which came out last year to wide acclaim.
The work is done so might as well incorporate it all on the adv version to help trounce the competition.

I too read a review where a 790 with off-road TC on climbed a gravelly slope better than without.
Interesting stuff. I suppose feathering the clutch has the same effect, but takes more finesse.
It might mean less balls-out momentum needed to climb slopes which should make a bike safer.
I know with early TC 4x4s it wasn’t always like that in dunes and soft sand where each momentarily braked wheel slowly dug itself in one after the other, but that was years ago.
Like ABS, TC must have got cleverer but according to Bike mag review not that clever: needs to be turned off for soft sand or eventually you sink in. So no better than a regular bike. Operator skill still required.

Meanwhile the T700 is based on the humble MT07 and spin-offs, a budget but phenomenally successful machine.
Probably over 100,000 CP2-powered examples sold RTW by now, if you include Tracers and XSRs. One of the best-selling Yams of all time.
The say the novel Niken was a one of the experimental spin-offs from all those sales.

I suppose if you scrutinise the internet long enough, some CP2 turkeys will crop up among that number.
Point us to the sources, tremens.
Biggest complaint I ever read/experienced was crap suspension. Easily fixed.

To me keeping the T700 simple and inexpensive is in the ethos of former Teneres.
The 660Z was an absolute bargain when it came out. I paid £4k for one just run in, iirc.
Yamaha probably know that, initially at least, they'll easily sell enough T700s without having to resort to impressive electronics packages, or even TL tyres.

Hard to know if the much-complained about long lead time is a flawed promo strategy, last minute tinkering to get it right, or just far too 'get-them-all-talking' clever for us dummies to appreciate ;-)

AFAIK traction control hasn't made its way on to trials bikes, used in a sport where traction can make the difference between winning and losing. Is the Mk.1 human brain better at finding grip than any CPU?

I'd be really interested to read any evidence of unreliability in this series of motors as well.

Kind regards,

Ian.

nothing major, but leaks etc:
https://fz07.org/thread/9580/anyone-...heir-new-fz07/

not the only one case above of course but I don't remember now all links,
also could find any high mileage, I mean near 100k km yet.
I'm not saying this engine is bad, just personally I wouldn't trust as long distance unit it as I trust my xt660z engine, that's all. If you like it, that's great.

The Super does seem to offer fantastic value for money on the used market and looks like it would eat Continent's for breakfast but it is a big ole barge for the rough stuff.

Reviews are coming in from the launch in Spain.
For the moment this is a good one:
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/201...-31-fast-facts

I really like the look of these and the simplicity. An independent, German survey reveals that the MT07 engine is currently the most reliable motorcycle engine in the world.

I wish Yamaha had brought it out a couple of years ago as I’ll have to wait now for second hand prices

good review below, made me want to test this bike soon.

The reviewer, Chris Moss, is a freelance motorcycle journalist, yet hasn't ridden the KTM 790 Adventure yet. Hmm. If KTM didn't invite him to the launch then by now he should have wandered down to his nearest KTM dealer like Jo Public.

There's no doubting the T700 is fantastic value. I'd be interested in a comparison between the T700 and the XT660Z Tenere. The two bikes are about the same cc, the same dry weight, have the same 210/200mm suspension travel.

I imagine the T700 suspension is higher quality, but the fuel tank is smaller. Adding a cylinder probably improves the quality of road travel—the XT660Z was intractable at low revs.

Any other improvements? What's the overall effect for road and off-tarmac riding?

The XT660Z had one of the widest set of gear ratios I've come across despite only having a five-speed box. I understand the T700 uses the same six gearbox ratios as the road going bike. This is exactly the same mistake BMW made with the 650/800GS when they used the 800ST box, and what KTM did when they used the Duke box in the 790 Adventure. We NEED wide ratios for dual sport bikes, not road-going gearboxes.

The T700 will be miles better than the 660Z in every way, bar fuel range.
Better suspension (with HPA!), nicer motor, same weight but hopefully not as top heavy. (Though I have to say my XScrambleR felt heavy for a 185-kilo bike).

Not sure what the difference is between a wide-ratio box and a road-going box.
I'd say they're the same thing on a touring bike which is how most adv bike are used most of the time.
Tractable motors (broad spread of power) – like the CP2, BMW 650/700 and I imagine the new 750/850 and the 790 – work well with such ratios.
I'd even add a Himalayan to that list. I haven't analysed gear ratios but it feels exceeding wide yet works within the limits of the bike.

The usual problem I find is a too-tall 1st gear on rocky, walking-pace rocky climbs on stock gearing.
The 660 did 8mph at tick-over, iirc. Way too fast, so the clutch gets over-worked. Not good for too long on a hot day, or longevity in general. Especially with heavy loads. I suppose the T7 will be the same.
Partly ameliorated with a front sprocket swap (easier said than done on the F650/700GS), but these are 200-kilo bikes. Such terrain is not for everyone.
What would be good is an extra low 1st, as found on some ag bikes.

Up to a point good suspension enables you to ride such climbs faster without clutch slipping or crashing. I imagine the 790 will excel at that but I have to say I was surprised how well my XSR (same T7 motor and gearing) crawled up Jebel Sarhro switchbacks. A lot of clutch slipping and fans whirring, but very easy to control on the limited suspension compared to similar dogs I've ridden up there.

Looking forward to reading (or I suppose, watching) a comparison with a 790, T700 and 850GS and maybe the 19-er CB500X.
If I didn't know better I'd say we're approaching peak travel bike.

Well, yes, if all someone does is tour they might not value a wide spread, but for mixed road/off-tarmac you do, especially less experienced riders who when riding off-tarmac tend to be going quite slowly.

When BMW introduced the F800GS and F650GS twin they used the gearbox from the F800ST and F800S road bikes. To try to cover up the deficiencies for dual sport use BMW put different sprockets on the two bikes—16/42 on the more 'off-tarmac biased' F800GS and 17/41 on the more 'road biased' F650GS twin. Consequently whilst the F800GS had a lower first gear (but still not low enough for some) it was buzzy at motorway speeds, and whilst the F650GS twin was better on motorways the first gear was much higher than ideal for off-tarmac.

The spread between 1st (2.46) and 6th (0.96) gears on the F800/650GS twin is a miserly 2.56. On the KTM 790 Adventure it's better at 2.98.

On the XT660Z and the 650GS single it's 3.25, even though both those bikes have only five-speed boxes. In fact the XT660Z has a wider spread on just 1st to 4th gears than the F800GS has between 1st and 6th!

Engine tractability can overcome some of this but already some 790 Adventure owners are talking about swapping sprockets. This is far from ideal as you might want to lower 1st by 20% but of course that would screw up motorway speed riding.

I am afraid it will not be the case but who knows, current reviews are mostly sponsored ones.
For now I don't really see a reason why I would want to switch from my old tenere although ordering is available on yamaha site.

New T7 looks far more delicate then xt660z including engine, small 16 liters tank is a sleazy move by yamaha to make it less top heavy, seat looks like from dirt bike, xt has very good seat. Just because suspension is adjustable doesn't mean it will be much better. Newer models xt660z have pretty good progressive suspension IMO, I don't complain at my 240lb weight.

Price seems competitive but you will need buy crash bars, rear rack and handles, better seat. XT doesn't need that.

Yeah, I am also curious how is E.G. the handling compared to xt660z.
Regarding low revs I tuned my tenere for this and don't have any problems
with trail riding at very low revs, walking speed. Different sprockets, lambda delete, airbox mod, CO tuning etc all did the trick. Few more horses would be good though.

maybe KTM was afraid he'd be too honest at his 790R review :)

Not needed with CP2 engine. That's why it's been so successful.

Another gushing video review.

TC?
 

What is the general view on the fact that the 700 Tenere does not have Traction Control? Main use would be TET Europe and planning a ride from Europe to Magadan.

That it doesn't have Traction Control (AFAIK) is one reason I'm considering buying one.

But if I was doing the TET tomorrow I'd take a CRF250L or XT250 Serow. Can't comment on the ride to Magadan as never been that way.

I hope that helps.

YMMV.

it doesn't have but weird reason for having interest in bike anyway because TC you can always switch off.

One less thing to break, presumably with at least a warning on the dash if it does, and I imagine it doesn't come at no cost.

Had a good look over and a 45-minute spin a T7 yesterday on grassy trails and backroads. 3800 miles on the clock.

Can’t help love that grunty CP2 motor – best Jap motor for years.
It felt much less harsh than a 790R I also tried (off-road only).

I’ve written a detailed review here. A summary below.

• Engine character and response – it’s perfect
• Fully adjustable, plush suspension
• Pre-load adjustment knob
• Weighs 205kg (unverified). Same as my 660Z and less than my CB500X RR
• Flat but grippy textured seat
• Brakes feel good, road or dirt
• Brisk and agile on the road
• A display scroll button now on right bar
• 25,000-mile valve-clearance intervals
• Well set up cockpit
• Centre stand – at least an available option
• OMG – no beak!

• Is it such a bargain? Over £2k more than an MT-07
• At 16-litres, the tank could use a couple more
• Top-heavy at a standstill
• Non-adjustable screen
• Handguards are plastic
• Screw-in filler cap – a saving too far
• At 34.5″ (875 mm), stock seat too high for many
• Tall riders will need bar risers to stand comfortably, but stock risers are already long

https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...hite.jpg?w=640
https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...7/t7render.jpg
https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...7/t7rsidew.jpg

A very svelte person might be OK. Otherwise looks like emergency use only.
I imagine GS850/750 would be comfier.

The official rally kit does include a beak.
I find some nice speedblocks work better ;-)

I think we were at the same event...
I found the T7 OK-ish. However, I found it quite top heavy and the throttle a bit snatchy. It felt to me like a budget bike (which it is).
On the road, the bike was very good.
It did feel very much like a road engine on an offroad frame, (again which it is).
I wanted to like it and was ready to order one after this test ride. I am having second thoughts. The option of an XT660Z and doing the usual mods now seems like an attractive proposition again.

exactly what how I feel about new T7 - "road engine in off-road frame", spot on comment. Similar thing with ktm 790R BTW. I would add also that ugly square dash bouncing around a lot when riding making hard to read. Not that there is much there anyway :) My xt660z is not going anywhere soon.

Had finally the opportunity to test T700 for 2 hours on dirt roads and
I have to say bike rides much better then specs would indicate...
I was pleasantly surprised with the CP2 engine. Plenty of power in whole range, you can lug it in first, second gear. Moto nimble and feels very light, much lighter then my xt660z weighing on paper almost the same.
Suspension pretty good, was set very stiff for sport riding but for off-road too bouncy. Would need adjust. Dash shaking on bumps a lot, and not too clear in sun. Seat not as bad as it looks. Overall impression got like riding on on big dirtbike. Engine alu skid plate looks too thin, and mounted to frame pipes which extension is foot pegs alu mount, bad idea IMO. To sum up, bike quite good, but price a bit too high. For long travels I don't know, the narrow seat, small tank but maybe?

https://i.imgur.com/35Urd2X.jpg

So has anybody bought one?
 

Seriously considering one as one and only bike. Last bike was 1200gsa. Dealbreakers are tubed tyres and small tank.

I’m a 1200 GS TC owner and took a T700 out for a 2 hour test ride - brilliant bike.
But - how do you use your bike?
I might sell my 1200, buy a T7 and a cheap 1100gs - they are different bikes for me.

Bit of everything 100m trips to see family, touring Europe mainly ( had 4 gsa’s ) loved the fuel range, comfort and ease. 500 mile days no problem

Thinking of extended trip in a couple of years

I love the ergonomics straight out of the box on the t7. Pegs bars and seat feel great but would change seat anyway.

Only ever had two punctures and easy to plug.

I agree tank is a tad small. But then would be even more top heavy.
I average 26kpl on my 14-litre XSR7.
Same on a T7 = over 400km which is pretty good.

Stock spoke TL rims (as on the S10, BMs, etc) do add to the cost.
You can DIY seal the rear (as I did to my AT. No probs in 5000km.
Or get proprietary sealing bands like BARTubeless or Airtight (both in UK) from 120 quid. But front rim would need changing to 'MT'. I did that to my AT too.

There are other way more expense TL options.
For travelling TL is definitely the ay to go.

I too found the ergonomics great and I’m really fussy about that.
I use my bike for nearly all travel so comfort, carrying capacity and economical running are the priorities. We also have extended camping holidays in Europe (3-6 weeks depending). Although we have a bike each we like to camp in comfort so do carry a lot of gear. We also like to find that secluded beach or mountain top view so rough road capability is also a must - a gs is perfect.
The T7 would work except for the carrying capacity, also my mum is a 450 boring motorway mile round trip and I will sometimes go down on a Saturday morning and come back on Sunday morning so I need a super comfy bike.

Having said that, I think my needs are unusual and I do believe the T7 is a better ‘one bike for all’ than my 1200.
We too want to do some extended trips but I keep getting drawn towards something smaller like a crf250 rally - I think I’ll always have a gs of some kind in the shed - I like to think I’ll also have a T7 one day. :mchappy:

I was looking at a 250rally too but 450 rally would be ideal. Unfortunately I can only have 1 bike at the mo. Another gs would be easy as I’ve a a history with them but looking to go further than Europe in a couple of years such as the Americas to start off with or Stans etc etc.


T7 ticks 80% of the boxes for me

Pretty much the same bier

Great series of vids just started on YT but a couple of French T7s on a Nordcap to Cape Town.
Longer write ups here.

These guys did not take the easy way down!

See next post

Hello

Thanks for posting, crazy guys.
Link didn't work.
All three episodes so far:



https://www.youtube.com/user/LoloCoc...able_polymer=1

sushi

Ep 4 just out

getting rust and build quality not as good as old tenere.