what is the optimal bike weight for adventure trips?
 

By adventure trips I mean mixed roads between pavement and gravel.
I am interested in fuel economy, maneuverability of the bike and practicality on the road.

From my test rides so far seems to me I should keep gross weight under 200kg/450LB. Surprisingly most adventure bike like XT660z etc weigh over
that limit. Wonder why...

Hi i have tried a lot of bike over the years and ruled out most BMW's or other bigger bikes . The two bike i used all the time now that have proven to be good for motorways and offroad work are the Africa twin weighing in at just over 200 kl or for places were your doing more off road then on road i like the KLR650 .

I would recommend the Africa twin as a good arounder if you can check one out :thumbup1:

4500 lbs???? :innocent:

The "optimal bike debate" has been carried out so many threads here its not even funny. Go test ride some single cylinder bikes. Try and find bikes under 150 kilo. Then with your gear it will be around 200. My 690 is less then 210 kilo with all my gear. The Atwin is over 210 kilo unloaded.

You should also be honest with yourself about what type of riding you want to do. In my opinion, offroad ability of a bike is better than onroad comfort.. It makes you explore the small roads instead of burning slab all day and dealing with traffic. But, I want to be able to ride up that huge dune on the left to see what the view is like from the top. Also my opinion: You should be able to be able to pick up your bike by yourself... Not just on tarmac, on all surfaces. Doesn't seem practical to have to unload a bike to pick it up when you tip over or get stuck.

As light as possible & practical :thumbup1:
Layout your intended gear, halve it & then cull some more !
How many trips have been done with clothing not worn, gear not used & just sitting there taking up space ??? Plenty !

Playing top-trumps with the manufacturers spec sheets is pointless IMHO. The only way to take account of the different shapes and seat widths and engine "happy spots" and hundred other factors that please or annoy is to use them. Which would you rather have, 5 litres of petrol or 4.5 Kg lighter or a bike weighed without any oil in the engine? It's all compromise.


My current choice (Moto Guzzi V7) is supposedly under the magic 200Kg at 179 wet. If feels small and light and on gravel roads in third gear it plonks along as well as road shaped bike. My former V-strom was a whopping 14 Kg over the ballpark magic number but listed as "kerb" weight was certainly more capable off road due to the 19-inch front tyre when moving, but when forced to walking pace by how far ahead you can see was a top heavy lump with a seat height and width that made getting a foot down fretful. The Wee's bulk and extra 20HP would actually make it the superior road bike in many people eyes, but if you stick to the speed limit anything over 40 HP is pointless anyway.


I'd try talking to people with similar use and shape to you rather than reading the manufacturers web pages. It's taken me 20 years and 14 bikes to reach the conclusion that a 5'8" bloke doing 95% road use, who needs to take any road at 20 mph in any weather, has a pillion ten times a year and wants to do his own maintenance is better off with a bike that pretty much looks like what Ted Simon used in 1975 and has between 30 and 60 HP (but other choices also work to most of the spec)! Would you believe the only manufacturers who agree with me are Triumph (so long as I ignore their lies about the weight), Moto Guzzi and the odd Kawasaki dealer who knows their product range includes bikes that aren't snot green missiles ;-) The rest think having a bike that looks like something from the Transformers film or that is the weight of my lunch lighter than last years model is more important to me.


Look at the bikes that are doing the job, old BMW's, KTM's, Japanese singles and twins, Chinese 125's, Honda Step throughs..... The published weight figure doesn't coincide with success or failure.


Andy

I have a KTM 690 and a BMW R100GS. My preference for any 'adventure tour' will always be the old BMW. It's much heavier than the KTM but still fine for the unpaved roads, much more suitable for extended road travel and I wouldn't be put off exploring less travelled routes because of the weight.

The KTM would be my bike of choice if the intended journey was almost entirely off paved roads (trans Pyrenees for example) as the bike is much lighter making it a lot less hard work. I always try to travel as light as possible these days but even so the BMW carries the gear more easily.

I'm pretty much the same size I was forty years ago. OK, the leather bike trousers I bought in 1974 are a little tight these days but nothing a week on bread and water wouldn't sort out. Bikes, on the other hand, seem to have been spending the last few decades on a Big Mac and Lard diet and have become huge and bloated, lumbering their way down the tarmac and needing car sized parking bays.

How do I know this? Because yesterday I spent an hour or so wandering round my local Triumph dealer's showroom. They keep a small collection of classic (70's mainly) bikes scattered here and there in between the current stock so it's possible to do a direct comparison. The older stuff - many of which I owned in the past - looks tiny, almost like toys, yet I happily did many thousands of miles on them round Europe and beyond, often with pillions, without worrying about their weight. The current bikes were mostly all physically bigger and a lot heavier (the exception being a secondhand Enfield).

No doubt they were a lot more sophisticated and, despite much bigger engines, were probably just as economical but my point is that I'm just the same size as I ever was but I'm having to manhandle much larger heavier lumps of machinery around. No wonder they're unwieldy off road. There's nothing wrong with 200kg+ bikes that become 250kg+ when they're loaded up as long as you're riding them along smooth endless tarmac. It's when you have to ride them on a cross rutted sandy piste or push them uphill on an adverse camber that the problems arise. And lets not talk about snow.

Lighter bikes do exist - I have three of them under 150kg but mostly they're small capacity (my 125 is 88kg) or crude to the point of needing a mechanically adept (or insensitive!) rider (My XR600 is about 130kg, my CCM is about 145kg). The market seems to have decided though that more weight is an acceptable compromise for more sophistication - or maybe it's just that bigger sells easier. Either way, we now have still normal sized people trying to manhandle bikes that would have been laughed at a few decades ago - even the original Gold Wing looks small now.

I think it mostly depends on what roads you will travel. More offroad means more lighter bike!
As long as it will be graded gravel you can drive one of the big ADV-Bikes like S10 or GS, but my experience says, although on this roads a lighter bike like XChallenge, XT660Z or similar will be much mor fun:scooter:

I own a S10 and now a XChallenge. I´ve been on gravel in the Alps with teh S10 and its great, what ist possible with such a big bike, and even the backroads in northern Germany could be done with the S10, but after driving the XChallenge on these roads i changed the Tires of the S10 to Anakee 3 because i will use the S10 only on tarmac.
A light bike ist so much more fun offroad, almost on graded gravel an on single trails just funny:thumbup1:

My recommendation is to go as light as possible depending on the kind of adventure you will do.

But this ends not only with a light bike, light should be the luggage too:thumbup1:

"What Bike?" is a frequent question here & you'll received great advice. But the truth is, only you can decide - only you know the type of road you'll use & what your capabilities are :)

You may be 6'2" and weigh 20 stone or 5' nothing and weigh 7 stone. It also depends on what you define as a "gravel" road and what skills you have/lack.
I agree that some of the ADV Bikes are too tall, too heavy but some riders would be happy picking up a 1200GSA and relish a muddy trail or a boulder strewn river crossing. The svelte Tiffany Coates manages to ride her R80GS all over the world & pick it up. There are techniques.

the problem is with today's products, everything has to either too big or too small :(
Look at any company offer for so called adventure bike and you'll see.
If something is smaller, it has small tank or other thing making it harder to use for longer trips.

We thought we were doing well on our tricked up DR650 2up around Uyuni in Bolivia and then met a Czech couple riding 2up on an Enfield Bullet 350 on the original road tyres doing all the pistes we did and a few more difficult ones. There a lot to be said for lower lighter bikes.

A 650 is as heavy a bike as I want to use for travelling, even the DR with a full tank and luggage is fairly heavy ~ 200kgs.

The 'optimal' bike does not exist, what we have to choose from are all compromises, you have to decide which is the most important to you: 150 hp and weighing 250kgs, or weighing 75kg and doing 120 mpg with 20 hp.
Most of us choose something on the lighter side.....but as has been demonstrated you can ride nearly anything, nearly anywhere.

Back to market forces here IMHO. The overlanders won't buy the extended warranty, or the bi-monthly service, or bring back a 2000 mile bike in 18 months to sell or a lot of the other things the manufacturers like. The Charlies shop more, break less inside the warranty period and want to be seen down at Starbucks on a bike that's bigger and shinier than their special friends.


In 1975 my Dad went to the dealers with a list that included things like not buying petrol on the way home from work more than once a week that were directly transferable to touring. He rated 100 mph performance as a equal to higher insurance costs and would have bought the 250 over the 350 if the dealer had had one in. A different market in different times.


There is hope, the Chinese market still includes the mid-weight class and our petrol prices are pushing range as a selling point. (Which back on topic is another weight factor, 42 litre tank = average 20 kg, 12 litre tank = average 6 kg, but which gives the bigger range? you need the MPG figure as well and might even choose not to fill the big tank).


Andy

and that's what I'm talking about:



who needs bigger bike for adventure.

Bigger blokes :oops2:

In that clip, that bike is perfectly proportioned to her. My wife has one, and I sit on the carrier when I try to ride it. Forget about standing up, as I have to fold myself double to reach the handle bars.


IMO- power to mass ratio is much more important than weight. but the lighter it is, the easier it'll be in the rough stuff...

Bigger bike doesn't need to be heavy bike. Look at every rally bike. Most average people have trouble touching the ground.

I'm 5'9". Average male height. I am tippy toe on both sides of my 690 or flat foot on one side or the other. Its not a small bike... but it weighs less then the crf250.

I agree power is important. But I would way rather ride a crf250 in mongolia then a 1190 adv. Anyone who has ridden an big ADV bike to mongolia will probably agree with me... or they took the pavement most of the way.

I agree, I don't have actually a problem with bigger sizes even like super tenere or GS1200 but weight is important if something goes bad - it's physics right?
momentum = mass x velocity... I am 6.1 with 108kg live weight and still feel safer with bikes under 200kg although I could probably handle even 300kg motorcycle..

For sure the 690 KTM would be an excellent choice. 140kg, lots of power. What more could you want?

Toured Suisse on an LC4, but the vibration got me. After 6 hours or so in saddle, everything started tingling (not just my backside). I think newer ones are a bit better, but for sure not as smooth as the Honda.

Of course the lighter the better, but also for me there is a clear MAX. That is where I can pick up the bike myself more than once in sub-optimal conditions w/o hurting myself. This may be somewhat biased by my riding style :), but it is a requirement. Way too many opportunities to get stuck by yourself halfway down a slope a long way from help to have a bike that you can't move around with.

Somewhat my take on the choosing the bike for the "worst" you are going to ride, not what you are going to ride the most of. (I might tend to call it the "Best" but that depends on the bike you are riding, and how heavy it is!)

Prime reason to take a bike is to go where you really can't go with more normal transport. If I really just wanted to go easy places, I'd take the bus and not have all the worry and expense of my own transportation. I want to be able to take that dirt road into that hidden green valley that I saw out the dirty window while stuck on the bus with the goat in my lap.

But it IS amazing where Buses get to. I've been aboard Buses climbing up deeply rutted and rocky muddy nightmare dirt "roads" (liberal use of "road" here).

Small, dual wheel Bluebird Bus used super-low "Granny" gear all the way up at 3 mph whilst the Aymara women chanted incantations to themselves. Few passenger cars could make that bit, but the Buses did.

These scenario played out numerous times from Mexico to Bolivia. It took FOREVER to pass these rough sections ... on a nice light enduro bike you could blast through easy ... or on a 100cc step though! :mchappy:

Loose rocks, ruts and mud are what may cause riders most grief. A big, heavy, overloaded bike might struggle unless the Pilot knew his Onions well.

The answer to traveling on a bike you can't pick up solo is ... don't travel solo! Pick up a couple STRONG, YOUNG Riding buddies to help out. Also be cautious about where you go. (impossible to always know conditions)
Yes, sometimes you might have to turn round and take the pavement ... especially if solo and unsure of road conditions. No loss of honor there.

http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-9K2mdC3-L.jpg
Here ... my younger (20 years younger), stronger A Enduro rider friend rides my XR250R up a steep loose grade in Baja. The pic does not do justice to just HOW steep/knarly this bit is. Another A rider buddy rode me double UP THIS on his WR450. I was stunned he could do it with my fat ass on the back starting mid hill from dead stop. SKILL.

My XR250R had seized earlier in the ride, freed up and ran but was down on power. I got to ride my buddies WR450 the rest of that days ride. WOW! Lighter than my XR and double the HP! No more problems! (yea, right) :helpsmilie:

http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-TFtp4f8-L.jpg
We had to stop our friend here from attempting pick up his loaded GS1200 solo. 3 of us lifted it up 5 times this day. We had got lost in a very remote area of the Sierra Tarahumaru near Mexico's Copper Canyon. Deep Bull Dust caused the falls for this novice off road rider. No damaged backs on this trip ... but nearly did.

I just watched Long Way Round about that RWT on big GS1200 bikes and
guess what, conclusion was they're too big and too heavy for the purpose.
In addition one of the GS frame has broken, crack in two places....
260kg plus luggage that's nuts even in light offroad.

That is true. And the gazing over the side, front and rear bumper scraping the wall and rocks crumbling away on the downhill side, beautiful river 800 feet down to the river below and seeing the bus from last year's rainy season down there...

(Petunia on the way down to Death Valley...)


http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/...ps448451ef.jpg


But the real problem it is hard to get a fully loaded bus to just turn down that road that you see. You have to know in advance, find the right bus, get the schedule, etc. And you don't know that road is there until you drive by it on the bus!!

Truth is, I fall down a lot. And I tend to ride alone.

:smiliex:

i completely disagree...
im about as big/tall as they come for overlanders, at 6'10" i am comfortable riding my modified xchallenge (75,000+km), just because your bigger doesnt mean that you need a bigger bike.
im also very comfortable riding a honda wave in thailand with my gf behind me.

Well, there you go. X-challenge will never work for me- my knees will kill me before the 1st hour is up. I had an XR350 one, but gave up when I couldn't 'get up' off the seat anymore. But whatever floats your boat.... :wave:

[QUOTE=Squily;473595]For sure the 690 KTM would be an excellent choice. 140kg, lots of power. What more could you want?QUOTE]


How about, what's the best power to weight ratio? KTM 950 Super Enduro is the answer for me.

Size all depends on how much you want to enjoy your ride!

My knees are bent far less riding my TT250R than on my previous RT or XT660Z, so although the little yam is slower it gets me there in more comfort and I can fix it myself.

add to that most 250/350 trail bikes and you have a huge list of easy to enjoy,easy to fix light and cheap to buy bikes.

do you really need to go above 80mph if you are serious about staying alive when you have every kind of vehicle,person or beast trying to kill you?

The Honda CRF 250 must be the best incarnation of the modern RTW bike.

anyone saying it is uncomfortable has not tried changing the bars, fitting risers and fabricating a kit so you can lower the footpegs for road hauls, putting more foam in the saddle raises the hieght and makes it all day comfortable.

as for tank range a little 250 Honda can travel a long way on a little fuel so you only need either an aftermarket tank or aux tank to cover long distances.:scooter:

To anyone who claims you need to have a GS to enjoy proper adventure riding - please do yourself the favour and try the same trip on something smaller and lighter, I bet you smile a lot more!beer

Sounds like you've made the ride down the Death Road in Bolivia. Scariest bus I ever made. Now there is a new paved road, buses no longer use the old dirt road apparently. BTW, the drop off at highest point is 2000 ft.

Both KTM's are awesome bikes. If one has the money and can afford to put money into fitting them for travel, then all good. Maintenance and reliability still a question on both. Most successful KTM RTW guys are pretty good mechanics. I think you have to be to make it on a KTM. Conversely we see Noobs aboard $500 Chinese bikes getting out there with zero bike experience. Sort of gets back to why you travel and what priorities one has. If you need a fast, sporty bike everyday on your ride to make you smile .. all good. I prefer something less exciting but more utilitarian, without the
large initial cash outlay. But's it's all good if you're having fun!

Hard to argue with those points. I can guarantee the smile part if you're talking about doing nasty mud, rocks or knarly off road riding. A well set up 250 is certainly easier to manage for most "average" riders.

That CRF Honda certainly could be The One. I wonder if it will turn out to be as reliable long term as the KLX250S and WR250R? Certainly is popular and the aftermarket is already on board with lots of good extras for that bike. I think a good seat would be paramount to comfort. Wider is the key. Enduro seats are too narrow. More foam is only a half measure, a professionally designed seat really makes a difference when in the saddle 10 hours a day, day after day.
The BIG positive for the 250 class is fuel economy. Getting out to remote areas really requires good range. We've all struggled with this. That little CRF Honda seems to "make gas"!

I think it depends on skill/experience and you're strength and the 'If you can be arsed' effect.

Lighter the bike, easier everything is. Except cruising comfortably at speed.

I think most people go for somewhere in the middle. 250kg when loaded up would be my personal limit though. You're talking a 400-650 Enduro style single cylinder bike.

The bike is only half the equation. Use lightweight luggage and don't carry too much and you're half way there.

Then again, people ride Harley's through sand and some people race scooters on drag strips...

how about this;
you sit at home in your Lazy Boy, and we send you videos of us out enjoying life on our preferred bikes, and you pretend that it is actually you...

that is, unless you prefer to continue to make up excuses as to why that bike wont work for you, without actually trying said bike....

nonsense, just because you can ride it for few minutes doesn't mean you can actually use it for a trip.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/...xmn2m4tjpg.jpg

I am 6.1 and a big bike like nc750x has a little cramped space for my legs
so my next bike will be even bigger most likely.

Spot on! Voice of experience there ... are you listening Robson?
Skill and fitness really count. Both can and will be developed somewhat on the road ... if you survive that learning curve then you'll be better equipped.
But having fitness and skill before setting out is preferred.

So true about the small bike not being good on long highway runs. Compromises. Middle ground is where I've ended up, after exploring both ends from 250's to 1000cc bikes. I've pushed to get even lower weight than Ted's 250 kgs. I'm at about 206 kgs. on my DR650. (fully fueled/loaded)

A good tall man 650 bike would be the Honda XR650L. Inexpensive and with a few key mods, very good travel bike. The Art Of Packing Light is another thread ... and is a key element in happiness on the road.


IMHO, the NC750X would be a poor choice for a travel bike.
Quite over weight, expensive and will not survive a crash well at all. Too delicate for any even moderate off road.
Once loaded, will be a beached whale.

For leg room ... you don't need a BIGGER bike, just a TALLER bike. See Honda XR650L ... or if you have money to burn,
any KTM 640 or 690. Even the lower KLR or DR650 can suit a tall rider with a built up seat, lowered pegs and bar risers.
No bike is perfect out of the crate ... they ALL need careful mods to suit.

You've got all completely wrong, wet weight 219kg while most bigger adventure bikes are at 259kg that is heavy for you? Expensive??? come on, from where you get your numbers? it's probably the cheapest from the adventure bunch. But it has also other advantages over other bikes - it's probably the most economical bike off all, 3.1 l/100km! Just finished 900km trip over weekend, very comfortable seat, very nimble, very low center of gravity hence very good at low speeds. Tested offroad and it's also excellent. I suggest ride the bike before you criticize it. It is an excellent travel bike.

Glad that NC750 is working out for you! I wished you had disclosed you owned this bike when you started this thread a month back. You could have given us wisdom on the Optimal Bike Weight topic right from the start! :innocent:

You are correct, I've never ridden the bike, only really followed the original NC700. Not sure the 750 is for sale in USA. Reminds more of a big scooter with the DCT. Tests put NC750 weight at 229 kgs. and 54 HP. Cost is about $10,000 usd. (£6800)

Reviews I've read on the NC700/750 voiced several complaints beyond the subjective judgement of the reviewer that his Coffee Maker has more personality.(Visor Down) :cool4: Complaints continued, pointing out a wonky chassis, marginal brakes and the Auto clutch trans was not always in the right gear. But a lot to like too ... pottering round, comfy, smooth but uninspiring.

My worry would be that all that plastic would explode when you flip it into a ditch at just 20 mph. Even a low side might be bad news? What's a new set cost? :eek3:

That's just one of many reasons why, IMHO, it may not be an ideal Adventure travel bike. As a street only machine, I'm sure it's fine. Glad you're having a ball ... that's what it's all about. bier

The 17" front tire is another reason I won't be riding one. Wide street tires really suck on gravel or dirt roads, add ruts, mud and loose rocks ... good luck. Been there, done that. No bueno.

As a quick comparo ... Honda XR650L and DR650 both weigh 147 kgs. dry. Think about power to weight ratio here compared to your NC. Now add enough luggage to go cross continent.

XR-L and DR650 cost around $6000 USD new, but can be had all day for $3500 for near mint used ones. The best thing about both are how indestructible they are. They crash well, easy, cheap to repair.

No, the DR and XR-L will not be as comfortable as your NX and fewer creature comforts, and I do love the NC fuel economy. :thumbup1:
Test I read quoted 55 MPG. My DR gets 50 MPG.

So, to answer your question ... yes, to me it's both a bit heavy and a bit on the expensive side. Aesthetics aside (which put off many riders) it seems to have a few negatives. I've never seen one here in San Fran area ... but could mistake it for a big scooter. :scooter:

What do these plastics actually do? I am pretty unfamiliar with the NC.


To me if they hold the headlight a la Weestrom they need protecting by either careful use or bars/guards etc. (more weight). If they are just cosmetic either leave them at home for the day you want to sell the bike or let them (like the rest of any travel bike) get cosmetically trashed.


I've taken the fairing off a BMW K100 (some of that fibreglass would be nigh on indestructible at 15mm thick, it would be thinner bits like mounting tags that break but can be fixed). With a blade type screen you could still use the 80HP on the motorway. As an outfit weight matters much less, but the beast was surprisingly good on sand and gravel mostly because there was a decent tyre choice.


All just the balance of choices the user chooses to make as usual.


Andy

ok, this is my last response to your nonsense mollydog.

Show me today a bike not full of plastic, even bikes which cost twice as ncx, at least I have full steel frame. Besides tell me what is the advantages of having more metal parts as wind covers, mud guards etc :rolleyes2:

17 inch wheels? your comments reveals only lack of experience. Been ridding on smaller wheels for years and don't see really any benefits of 21 inch except heavy off-road although even that not in every case. Have a look at 1200 ducati multistrada, great adventure bike on 17 inch wheels. Wider tyes are better on sand BTW.

DR650? :D top heavy unstable bike.

ok, don't have time for this.

After tapping away on my calculator that fuel economy works out at close to 90mpg. Is that for real? Is that what you got over your 900km trip? I'd heard they were good on fuel but that could convert me. Apart from a few occasions with my old XR600 I've never owned a serious travel bike that has regularly returned more than about 60mpg. My 125 Suzuki only does about 70-75mpg on a long journey as it's ridden flat out but whether that's a serious travel bike is open for debate.

I suppose that's the crux of this discussion; what constitutes an adventure trip? Does a 900km tarmac weekend count or does it have to be a multi week / month overland expedition with much of it off road? Personally I don't care much for definitions but a bike suitable for one of those trips is unlikely to be optimal for the other.

I'm currently planning (been talking about dates for it while typing this reply) a trip with a 500+kg bike covering about 12000km next year. Does that count as an adventure trip or is is just a long bike ride? If I use the 125 on the Mongol rally (possible plan B) am I adventuring or going on a package tour? I've no idea nor am I bothered about it but I suspect the optimal weight for both of those alternatives is going to be somewhat different.

for those who think 21 inches wheels is the only on for offroad...

http://cdn.rideapart.com/wp-content/...2/IMG_1176.jpg

and the review from rideapart, where they say ncx is a swiss army knife bier

http://rideapart.com/articles/rideap...w-honda-nc700x

yes, that's real 3.1 l/100km average on my 900km trip which constituted mostly of mountain, curvy, tarmac roads, and maybe 15% gravel roads. Bike is perfect, could be a little bit taller for me but it's still OK. The weight is spot on, not horrible heavy offroad and not light on highway.

I wouldn't worry about adventure definition. As long you are experiencing adventure that's all that count :thumbup1:

and ducati multistrada offroad on 17 inches wheels:

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/Pho...hootout-38.jpg

bigger bike doesn't necessarily mean a greater distance from seat to pegs.

the issue as I understand it is cramped legs, again you don't need to have a bigger bike.
but if people just want to argue the issue to justify going bigger, have at it.

I still stand by my origal comment,
I addressed the issue, made my seat taller, and dropped the pegs.

Robson,
I would love to see your bike in action, let's meet at the Oasis guest house in UB next summer. I will get some tracks from Mr. Colebatch for the altai region, and have some fun, I will do my best in keeping up..

Edd, then you'd have too small ground clearance hence no longer a dual sport bike machine :rolleyes2: I understand what you're saying but I think just making the seat higher could make bike less stable as it was not designed for it.
I think I finally get it why some adventure bikes are so tall like e.g. yamaha Tenere XT660z. Good ground clearance and good body position.

p.s.
if I ever be nearby Oasis will be glad to meet you and have fun bier

2 answers
 

Optimal weight? As light as possible.

That is the short glib answer but the useful answer is this one:

- highest weight you can still lift by yourself.

Frankly, I don't know what that is for myself even. I was able to lift my loaded DR650SE and I was able to lift my unloaded KTM 990 but can I lift a KTM 1190 Adventure R with hard panniers, the option I am considering next? I don't know..

A little off-topic but are there any aids for lifting bikes? Jacks? Harnesses? That might change the answer to this as well...

I think the optimal weight would be 0 kg but like allways you have to take some compromises. Single cylinger bikes dont like long highway use, water cooling helps you in the desert, light bikes cant carry as much stuff as big bikes and old heavy bikes are more easy to repair and dont have a high loss of value as modern hightech bikes. The optimal bike for me was a 700 Euro Transalp with 200 kg, wich I could sell for the same price after the trip:

http://motorradtouren-suedamerika.de...en_transafrika

You mean right off the ground? If you can do that with a DR650 nevermind a KTM 1150 you're in a different league to me. What do they feed you on in the US? :rofl:

Or do you mean pick it up when it falls over. Usually the adrenaline rush that follows dropping it helps but you pay for it the next day when overstrained bits start hurting. I'll admit that a GoldWing that had upended itself on an alpine pass was beyond me though. It took two others to do that one. :(

The below video makes it look easy ... and it's true, a BMW Boxer is easier as cylinders rest on the ground, so bike is not flat on the ground. In mud or sand, this technique does not work so well. :nono:

A BMW is much easier to lift ... but a bike with panniers is easier too as panniers keep bike UP a bit, easier for you to get under it and get it up right.

With a loaded KTM 1190 first thing to do is get help if you can. Then take off as much luggage as possible.

I've lifted a fallen KTM 950 with just a tail pack on it. It was pinning the fallen rider ... so I had to lift it solo. He was screaming in agony so my adrenalin was pumping ... NOT GOOD. (This is when guys ruin their back for life)

I was lucky. I got it up enough so he could crawl out from under it ... then the two of us hoisted it up right. A real BITCH! This was on loose desert sandy dirt. But the KTM lays down very flat ... it's hard to get the lift started using the technique shown in video below. I tried backing into it ... could not do it ... my feet just slipped as I tried to push. Also, no good hand holds on the bike.

If fallen on a hill and you don't care about scratching up your bike, try spinning the bike round so that you can lift it up from the UP HILL side ... but once put up right the common disaster is the bike topples over the other side ... and tumbles on down the hill. :helpsmilie:
Been there, done that. doh

BMW bike lifting video - Yahoo Search Results

Evermore,
I remember your ride report on ADV Rider from S. America. Great stuff.
Would you really trust a KTM vs. your DR650 in Bolivia or Mongolia? :innocent: Did you ever have problems with your DR650 in S. America?

I've owned 3 KTM's ... still have my DR650 at 55,000 miles and counting.
:scooter::scooter::scooter:

Thanks! Well the DR650SE had 2 shortcomings for me, underpowered at altitude (altiplano from Cusco to Arequipa) and the darn carb stranding me a couple times. A KTM 1190 R would obviously fix those issues but be heavier and more complex. Having owned a 990, I am fine with the extra weight except that I don't know if I can lift one by myself in the likely spots where I might drop it (dirt/gravel).

I am frankly not too worried about breaking down and parts availability.This is an issue if you're traveling under time pressure and a 2-3 weeks waiting for a part to arrive would kill your trip. The DR would then be the better choice. I am thinking of a multi-year trip with no deadline. The KTMs are more complex but I don't think there is any issue I can't ultimately fix save a catastrophic crash.

The lifting issue remains. A system that gets the bike off the ground and maybe to a 30-50 degree angle is all that would be required. A lightweight mechanical jack would do it but I don't see any product like that out there. All the jacks I see are designed to lift cars or industrial loads so multiple ton loads. To help lift a bike, all you'd need is 1t jack but it would have to be lightweight. Some sort of tripod system using ratchet tie down to lift could be another possibility. Who knows, maybe I can figure out a reasonable solution and start selling it ;)

That looks like a GREAT Blog .. bit confusing to navigate, hard to tell Ads from content? Strange format! But great pics! bier

Love the Transalp! 700 Euros is a gift! :thumbup1: Great reliable bike for sure.

Can you lift it Solo with all luggage on the bike?

Some singles are really OK on highway, but certainly not all. The KLR650, DR650 and BMW F650 Dakar are all quite good doing LONG highway. A good seat and proper set-up make all the difference. Owned & ridden many singles long distance
(XL600R, XR400R, KTM 640E, KLR650, XR650L, XR600R, XR250R, KTM Duke ll) DR650 is the favorite so far! :thumbup1:

Rode 1000 mile day on my DR650: (Guerrero Negro, Baja, Mexico, to San Francisco, one day) I've done dozens of 300 to 400 mile days doing many long highway rides since 2006. Good seat makes all the difference but the DR is quite SMOOTH at 75 mph.

Generally, I would agree, water cooling is an advantage in very HOT weather. But does add some weight and complexity to any bike. DR650 has no radiator, no hoses, waterpump, just an oil cooler. :funmeteryes:

The DR650 has been fine riding WEEKS in 100F plus heat, including Death Valley at 118F. LOTS of Mexico too ... all at 70 mph. Absolutely no problems. Common story among DR650 owners ... Suzuki's SACS Air/Oil cooling system is very effective. Truly amazing motor in hot weather.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c...7_awof4-XL.jpg
Death Valley (this pic in Winter)

http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-TcdX8v5-L.jpg
Colorado from California, mostly highway. Here in Utah.
3500 mi. ride, 80% highway. Average highway speed, 75 mph. HOT HOT HOT!

DR650 is the easiest bike i've ever worked on. The fact that it rarely needs anything or breaks also helps! It weighs 324 lbs. dry (147 kgs) 368 lbs. wet (167 kgs. WET and loaded) bier

What are you doing in Brazil?

it's all good but why did they stop making those great old bikes? like dr650, transalp etc??? I'd like to get a new one and what? no luck...

Bike weight
 

I think, it depends on the nature of the planned yourney.
If you drive mostly tarmac and paved roads, then the question of weight doesn`t matter much. You can use a BMW ADV or a NCX or everything else. Lifting these bikes once a day should be no problem.
If you ride not on tarmac and perfect paved roads but offroad, then weight becomes matter, because you have to lift the bike on some days maybe ten times, then a Beamer or other big bike will "kill" you.

I did last week a yourney through germany on tarmac with my friend, me on an S10 and he on a 1200 ADV, it was great and a fast ride, but when the streets become narrow and really curvy, it was not so funny with the big bikes, but nevertheless no problem.
At one point we were lead to a diversion, at first paved road, then an muddy and slippery trail, holy shit, that was really not funny at all. We manged that stretch, but were wet and lucky, that there was no fallen bike to lift:thumbup1:

I think its BECAUSE they are so great. People who buy a Transalp or AfricaTwin etc. will never return to the dealer again for the next 20 years but keep riding and riding more then 400.000km without any problems.

http://www.touratech.de/nc/vollmeldu...ratech/29.html

This way you cant earn any money but people who buy a BMW have to get another bike every year because they keep breaking down

BMW R 1200 GS Dauertest : TOURENFAHRER ONLINE
Dauertest-Abschluss BMW R 1200 GS - Motorrad-Dauertests - MOTORRAD
Dauertest BMW R 1200 GS Getriebeschaden - Motorrad-Dauertests - MOTORRAD

For the same reason printers and washing machines these days are specialy designed to fail after the end of warranty :(
People today dont care about quality anymore. Everyone wants the newest phone and newest model of what ever...

:rofl::rofl: Stopped making them? Huh!??? You can buy a brand new 2014 DR650, KLR650 or XR650L at any Suzuki, Kawasaki or Honda dealer in USA. Right now! The Honda is same dry weight as DR650, the KLR about 15 kgs. heavier.

Each company have over 1000 dealers in USA. Also, you can buy NEW in Australia. Only the Honda is for sale in the EU.

The DR650 has not changed since 1996, the KLR was the same from 1986 to 2007 (only minor changes made in '07). The Honda XR650L has not changed since 1992. Of all three bikes, IMO, the Honda is most in need of a re-model/upgrade. If Honda did this, they could DOMINATE this little segment. (which is quite strong ATM)

Having owned and traveled on all three bikes for thousands of miles since 1990, I prefer the DR650. It's low and easy to ride. It's pretty good off road once upgraded suspension ... but most of all ... it's extremely TOUGH and crashes very well. (almost no damage from light falls)

I would consider the KTM 690 if it was a bit less expensive and more reliable. KTM will get there ... and I will be standing in line to buy.

Only Yamaha have stepped up with modern dual sport singles. (Tenere 660 ect). Yamaha don't import any of the those bikes to USA. I love "the look" of the Tenere' but not a fan of the weight.

Funny! I rode that route in
1974 on a borrowed Vespa 150 (2 stroke!). I had flats!

All motors lose power up high, the DR is badly affected. I'm amazed at those on 125's and 250's riding 14K ft. If the DR is properly leaned out and breathing properly (fully open air box) this helps a little. But power is still affected but at least starts and runs OK if leaned out and breathing well. I tested my set up here:
http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-FVh5qKK-L.jpg
Imogene pass, Colorado. My Blue DR on left. 13K ft. We rode 6 passes in 2 days. Some went even higher.

CARB
Parts in the DR Mikuni carb simply wear out. I've re-done mine 3 times in 55,000 miles. HUGE difference with new parts. I buy used carbs on line and cannibalize parts needed. Cheap, easy & parts easy to carry on the road.
The KTM is quite light weight for a big bike, best out there! :thumbup1:

But still ... well over 500 lbs. ... now add 50 to 100 lbs. of gear and extras! :eek3: YIKES! I guess if you can bench press over 300 lbs. you might do it. I'm weaker now, don't have the strength I once did. I can still lift my DR.
I agree. Also, seems KTM dealers are popping up all over the world, Latin America have several. You have to wait for parts no matter the brand. No dealers stock anything these days. Most ALL OEM parts must be ordered.

Maybe a couple of adjustable, lightweight prop stands? If you could hoist the bike up just a bit, then somehow get a stand in, under the bike, then take it up in stages? Dunno? Tough problem. doh

It didn't help that I had a HUGE windscreen and a strong headwind. I just figure if you get a bike with a high enough power to total weight ratio, it won't matter what the altitude is ;)

I am hoping that either the rumored KTM 1050 or new Honda Africa Twin shave off enough weight (50 lb) to make them worthwhile. What's the point of a Triumph 800xc if it weighs the same as the much more powerful 1190 after all?

As for lifting, someone on advrider pointed out this bikehoist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzecbg5-KEY
My thinking is to try to keep the weight low enough that I can still lift it but maybe have something like along for peace of mind.

Yes, power is FUN! But windscreens really only affect things at speeds over 50 mph. But sure nice in freezing temps. :freezing: Good trade off? I run no screen on my DR but only ridden in Snow a few times. I like clean air, no buffeting. :thumbup1:
Totally agree about the Tiger 800. The XC800 Tiger is great bike to ride (I own a 1050 Tiger) but WAY too heavy for a true Adventure bike ridden off road. Triumph can do much better.

I have not heard about the 1050 KTM, what are the rumors? :confused1:
KTM are THE BEST at making truly light weight bikes. I was hoping they would a make a very light weight 650 to 750 V-Twin or parallel twin to compliment the current 1190 range.

I just don't need 100 HP on my travel bike, in fact I get along fine with the 37 HP on my old DR! :clap: FAST bikes are FUN riding around home or doing dual sport rides, but on the road, out of country on serious trip, I've got more important things to think about than pulling wheelies ... and there is no one to race 5000 miles from home. :(

I'm most impressed by the KTM 690. (ridden it a couple times, including the early '07 690 pictured in above pic) Check out the weight. It's SO LIGHT! Around 20 to 30 lbs. lighter than the DR650 ... with nearly double the HP and same fuel economy. But it's over $10,000.

Problem with the 690 is it needs custom set up to be a good travel bike and carry luggage. And the reliability has been far from perfect. Lots of stupid issues on their singles, things the Japanese solved 30 years ago. KTM still have A LONG way to go, IMHO. The twins are much better, and proven reliable these days. (mostly)

If not doing serious off road I'd jump for the big KTM. Such fun bikes to ride day to day. My favorite of all of them so far is the old KTM 950SE. (2004 to 2007?) Would you believe that bike is only 30 or 40lbs. heavier than my DR650? Yet it's got most all the luxuries of a big bike. Only issue with SE are the Carbs and poor fuel economy (average 38 MPG).

Also, it's very TALL, too tall for me! Hopefully KTM will come out with a "modern" version of the SE. THAT would be a bike to wait for!

But most KTM Twins start around $18K, go sharply UP from there. Out of my budget ... and NOT expendable like my DR650 is. If the DR dies, is crashed, stolen or is set fire to ... I can walk away no regrets. I'll buy another.
Hard to do on a close to $20K KTM.
I'd not want to carry this sort of stuff. Better to hook up with a couple STRONG riding partners! :D

I chose this 25in monstrosity thinking it would reduce fatigue. I could ride with visor open with that thing so definitely a good product. The only shortcoming were the aluminum mounts that did not survive the washboard on the way to the Uyuni saltflats.

This thread has reached over 100 pages. Expectation is for release at one of the motorcycle shows in October or November..

First thing I bought after returning to SF after my trip on the DR650SE was a KTM 690SM. It really did solve all the issues I had with the DR and I loved it. I replaced it with the KTM 990 eventually which did all the 690SM did but just much better, quicker, and more comfortably. =)

I have been reading up on the 950SE as well. Both the 690 and the 950SE need several additions to make them long distance capable and given their complexity, it can't really be argued that they are more reliable choices than a 1190. My thinking is either ride a DR650SE with its simplicity or get the.. err, KTM of Adventure bikes, the 1190 R ;)

By the way, the weight difference (dry) between a 950SE (408 lb) and a KTM 1190 R (478 lb) is 70 lb. if the fabled KTM 1050 (or Africa Twin, I don't care) comes in at say 40-50 lb less than the 1190 R, I think it becomes a very intriguing choice.

none of them is available in Europe.

Because Europa has more strict emission regulations AND people did not buy them when they were available. Insted they prefere bikes such as http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ht-comes-73113

That's why some round the world travelers start in the US. Bikes are significantly cheaper when new and the used market is huge so there are lots of options. =)

yeah, we have that nonsense here unfortunately... :(
I guess I had to import one from the Wild West :)

The problem is that as long as it does not pas the ASU test you wond be able to register it here but there are several old KLR 650, DR650 etc. available here see http://mobile.de so you could get one of them and import a new engine for the frame if neccecary...

I think another issue is that there aren't any riding areas. If you want to plan a trip with 90+% dirt routes (not roads) you'll have to start outside of Europe.

Most Europeans don't understand the weight issue largely because of that. Most time is spent on motorways and country lanes. So there isn't a large market for LW bikes. More market for gizmos and features that add weight.

Forget lifting the thing. That's not that much of an issue. Wrestling the thing is a much bigger issue. The limit of control is the mass of the person riding * leverage to do so. Action vs reaction of mass.

That's a BIG ONE! Parabellum make a good product. Good in cold weather, horrible in
HOT humid conditions in my experience. I had a big Parabellum on my old
R100GS.
Wow! I knew weight differences were around those figures but forgot how MUCH lighter the 950SE was. I too await the Milan MC show to see what Honda brings. I'll read up on the 1050 KTM when I can. Thanks for the link and weight info! bier

Here's the rundown as I understand it regards what IS or WAS sold in EU.
I mostly know the UK, but may be out of touch, haven't been there in a few years.

The post 1996 DR650SE was NEVER sold in the EU, far as I know. You can find the previous 650 model used. (terrible bike)

The KLR was discontinued in most EU countries ... not sure exactly WHEN it stopped coming in ... but it's been gone about 10 years or so. :confused1: There are a few KLR's around used however.

The Honda XR650L was sold in UK and most of EU for years. Not sure it's status now, I thought it still might be for sale in UK ... but not sure. Also not sure about the rest of EU. But these bikes are around. Ted would know about this.

Molly,

I`m with a 250 as you might know. Over 3,500m I had pretty alarming spluttering issues, kinda felt like engine would die momentarily and then kick back into action, as though someone grabbed the clutch in for a second. Should I take the air filter out or anything else one can do to get more power at altitude? Sorry bit off topic I know! :)

I did not take the filter out while riding my 125cc bike on dusty roads up to 4800 meters in Bolivia:

http://motorradreisen-suedamerika.de..._bolivien-peru

Just turned the German:Leerlaufgemischregulierschraube in as far as possible. The 800 Euro bike went slow but it kept going. Its better then any BMW.
Some nice first hand reports about the 18,000 Euro 1200GS are just happen here life:

Boulevard of Broken BMW Dreams - ADVrider
Around the World Ed-Venn-ture, the next 800 days - Page 29 - ADVrider

This is typical at high altitude. I don't know your bike ... but if it has a
Pilot fuel screw (usually on bottom of carb) the fuel screw needs to be turned IN (clockwise) to LEAN out the low speed mixture.

If you can ... OPEN UP the Air box. I would leave the air filter ON. But try to remove any thing impeding air entrance into the Carb. On my DR650 I cut a big hole in top of air box to increase air flow.

Some air boxes will have a removable side panel. If you have this ... remove it.

If you can LEAN out the fuel screw (it may be hidden and sealed on your bike) then you will also need to raise up the idle speed. I'm sure you have this adjustment on your bike.

But a 250 is going to suffer at 3500 meters no matter what. But leaning out
pilot fuel adjustment, opening the air box and increasing idle speed will :
1. allow smoother running
2. better fuel economy
3. better starting/idling

MORE AIR is what you need!
Good luck! bier

so basically you need a CPR on a bike...

Molly,

Cheers! Bike is a Honda 250XR Tornado. I have learnt about a lot of stuff on the bike, but the carb still looks a mystery to me. I`ll have a look for this fuel screw - and good advice about filter, my bike does indeed have a plastic panel so will remove this when I am finally reunited with bike (next week I hope!).

On a side-note, do you think when this sputtering is occurring it is better to gas it or close off the throttle? Better to drop down a gear and rev it or try to slunk along? Does this cause any damage to the engine or other components of the bike? I did a pass from Argentina to Chile and hit terrible headwinds, throttle fully open in second gear and probably doing 30-40kps!!!

:funmeterno:

Someone told me about getting the jets changed, but wouldn`t that affect performance when you come back to sea-level?

Your carb will be dead simple. Go on the Tornado forums, find out what riders are doing to gain performance. May be some clues there. Most CV carbs like you've got have a Pilot fuel screw. (sometimes mistakenly called
a Fuel/Air screw or Pilot screw). Sometimes the screw is inset under carb and covered with little tin cover. Pick the tin cover off with wall board screw, small screw driver, turn IN all the way until it stops (do NOT force). Count the turns.
It's probably set about 1.5 turns to 2 turns out. Go in to .5 or 1 turn from fully seated. Should make a BIG difference)

sputtering should not cause damage but if it's cutting out then kicking back in hard ... THAT is not good.
(hard on Crank/Rod) I would down shift and let it rev. Try to find the "sweet spot" where it runs best.

If you plan to stay up high for a while then changing the main jet makes sense. Should not be hard on that bike. But you may get away with simply doing the adjustments I outlined earlier. If they are NO HELP (which I doubt) then you will need to re-jet. Go only ONE or TWO jet sizes smaller. You should still keep the air box OPEN at high altitude, it really will make a HUGE difference in overall running, as will Pilot fuel screw adjustment.

With an open air box your air filter may get dirty more quickly. So keep an eye on it if riding in heavy dust. Keep it CLEAN/oiled or risk ruination of your motor.

Good luck! Ride Early AM, avoid head winds. bier

By the way, when I was in Ecuador and Peru, I went from sea level to 10'000 feet or more 5 times in 25 days. That is really the reason I want fuel injection as rejetting every time you hit a pass would be a drag :thumbdown:

I put together a spreadsheet to figure out what I actually wanted my dream bike to be and short answer, it's a 1190 R that weighs 50lbs less for which I'm willing to sacrifice 48 of its 148hp. :)

weight (dry): 420lbs (950SE comes in at 408lbs)
power: 100hp
torque: 70lb-ft
suspension travel (front/rear): 220mm
ground clearance: 220mm
electronics: Fuel injection AND Bosch's MSC (the ABS that works when leaned over). I think it's one of those innovations that can make a real difference safety wise (regular ABS is basically pointless on a motorcycle).

One of the rumors is that Africa Twin would get the MSC that Bosch makes (and is only on the 1190s so far) as well.

By the way, those numbers very closely match the 950SE so it's not like this isn't doable.

i'm glad that i've stumbled across this thread. i've been hunting for a KLR650 and have recently consider the DL650 XT. but i like the size and weight of the DR. i'm a sport rider, did not grow up on dirt, so it's nice to have less bike to wrangle offroad. the smaller the bike the better. but i wasn't sure how good the DR would be for long days at high speed, looks like a bike that would make the pilot suffer. so this thread is reassuring in that regard. a quick search finds more and better deals used on KLRs; DR owners seem to be a proud lot. i'll keep my eyes peeled, though, maybe i'll get lucky.


that said, i really wish Yamaha USA would have imported the Tenere 660. i do not miss carbs, at all.

Hi Kev,

The DR is not great at highway speeds, but with a decent screen it is a good all rounder and much more capable and fun on the dirt than the Strom, the Strom loses out on weight, ground clearance and suspension as the speed increases and the trails gets rougher.

Less weight and a better front end (after some modifications) with a 21 inch front wheel definitely make a big difference, the KLR is a good bike too, either one will do the job.

what is the optimal bike weight for adventure trips?
 

I was thinking of buying a KLR as they're quite cheap but people always seem to be posting that they've broke down or that bolts/etc have disappeared . Is the build quality not so good or what? I just wonder as I've put nearly 20,000k on a Honda Tornado and not one screw has yet come loose ( fingers crossed) and its seen the worst Bolivia has to offer in terms of bad roads.. I think if I were to buy another bike in Latin America it would be either a DR or a XR 400 Falcon - though the XR 250 has been absolutely solid too!

You can go round and round on bikes. Plenty of riders have done ALL of S. America and more on a KLR ... that said ... you are correct, build quality, IMO, is not great. The basic motor is "OK" but the rest of the bike is wanting,
IMO.

Also, the way the KLR is put together in places is somewhat questionable. It's also quite heavy for a 650 dual sport ... but is weak in certain areas despite being "overbuilt" in other places. It's a truly ancient design and in reality has changed very little since 1986.

But so many guys have dug deep into the KLR and figured out what makes it tick ... they've figured out how to make them better and last. Huge following of owners have been doing this for 20 years.

Still, the KLR650 would never be my first choice as a travel bike. Problem is many travelers buy ONLY on price. Hence, we see dozens of KLR beaters traded among travelers on the road. So, naturally, with unskilled, clueless owners, they break down.

I don't know much about the little Brazilian produced Honda's but by most accounts they are solid bikes. Of course they are overpriced for what they are, but ALL bikes are expensive in S. America ... except for used KLR's from another traveler :smartass:

The advantage to the 650cc class dual sport bike (XR-L, XT, DR650, KLR) is they are better on the road, carrying a full load, especially higher speed roads, riding all day at 60 to 70 mph. Here they are pretty good if you've got a good seat.

But as you've found out ... your little Honda is perfect on nasty dirt roads on rocks, mud, whatever.

I've learned to handle my 650 pretty well off road ... but if things get truly nasty ... I'm screwed and may have to turn around ... where you will ride on.

The fact is, even street bikes can cope with most roads. NOTICE, roads, not trails. The difference is, off road you're having FUN ... while others may be
miserable. :helpsmilie: