What's a good touring bike the 450cc range? Any ideas?
 

Here is what I am looking for....

• Enough power to carry a pillion and gear
• Able to cruise for long periods at speeds around 110kph
• Something I can buy new or fairly new (Would prefer not to buy something that went out of production a long time ago)
• Something that gets good gas consumption
• Something that performs well offroad

I have plenty of experience touring but always on bikes no other overlander would touch. I've never felt the need for a big bike...I'm not into speed and thrills, I like to take it easy, but also need a bike I can take on the highway when I want to reach the Pyrenees in less that 3 hours.

I was thinking a good dualsport bike, like a Honda CRF450

Or even something a bit bigger like a Suzuki DR650.

The problem is, they dont sell any of these kind of bikes in Spain. Not sure why. But it seems these type of bikes are hard to find in Europe

Any ideas of a bike I can buy in Europe that would fit my needs and I could buy a relatively new model?

in Europe not many choices now thank to EU, maybe next year with yamaha T7 and ktm 790.
Currently all of your list do well xt660z and ktm 690 enduro then a gap and maybe kawasaki versys 650, suzuki v-strom 650, bmw gs 650.

Enduro bikes are not good for pillion rides so ktm 500exc, crf450, wr450 won't fit the bill.

So let me summarize: you're looking for a powerful, yet lightweight and maneuverable bike, in current production, with extraordinary carrying capacity and smooth function both on and off-road. Right? I guess it should also be reasonably affordable, reliable in the long term, and from where you sit its probably necessary that it conform to EU safety and emissions standards.

People have been searching for this very bike, essentially, forever, in the process debating (and sometimes pontificating endlessly over) its absence. Of course it doesn't exist, since your requirements are at odds with each other. Of course the best solution is to make your peace with severe compromises: buy an older bike and manage to keep it running; buy a heavier bike and suffer its unwieldiness and off-road shortcomings; buy a smaller bike and wallow around overloaded with your pillion and all your various gear. You can do better or worse in accommodating to compromise, but you can't find the complete package because it doesn't, and probably won't ever, exist.

That's certainly true for all the bikes mentioned above, including the ones which you can't find in the EU (and the ones which might come into production soon). Make your peace with it and move on, as one does.

Hope that's helpful.

Mark

Edit to add: I see by your post on a nearby thread that you already know all of the above--why else extoll the virtues of overland travel on a Royal Enfield? It's all about adjusting expectations to the limitations of what exists in the real world, then settling in and enjoying the results. IMHO, of course.

I agree, dual sport or dirt bikes with narrow seats and no way to carry luggage are not going to work well, especially Two Up.

Best bike out there for reasonable cost at the moment, IMO, is the Honda CB500X. Low price, super reliable and ... you can upgrade it with a Rally Raid kit, although maybe not needed if not doing serious off road.

Enough power for two on fully loaded bike, enough room on seats for two and good provisions for carrying a RTW luggage load.
Lots of reviews on this bike besides the ones I posted below. Research!

If you want more, add the Rally Raid kit. I would look for a nice used example.
It won't be as interesting as your Enfield ... cause it probably will never break down! bier

https://adventure-motorcycling.com/h...0-mile-review/
Road test review of the 2016 Honda CB500X | Visordown

https://photos.smugmug.com/Misc-Moto...w-price-XL.jpg

Maybe a Yamaha 660 Tenere might come close?

CRF 450 L seems appropriate...

I wait for WR 450 R. Hope it comes out in 2-3 years !

Thanks for the answers guys.

Yes, I guess it might seem like I am chasing a unicorn here, but I am willing to make some concessions.

Agreed that the dual sport options are not so comfortable, especially for a passenger. But last year I did about 6000k through Indonesia on a KX150 with a passenger and we just took the seat off, gave it to an upholstery guy on the side of the road with some instructions and had him cut new cushion to our specific ergonomic needs and throw some new vinyl on it et voila....not so pretty looking on a dual sport but problem solved. I guess I could just to the same.

And for luggage....It doesnt need to be perfect or pretty. In Indonesia on the KX I just bought some iron rod, sketched out a luggage system and handed it to a welder..just needed something to bungee two packpacks onto either side. Worked fine for me. I also have a Triumph scrambler here in Spain that I made a funny little luggage solution for that involved a strip of canvas that runs under my seat with nylon straps and eyelets...kindof hard to explain, I think I actually posted a thread about it with picture son this hubb somewhere. Anyways, I rode like that with a passenger all the way to Albania and scrambled some pretty dodgy dirt tracks like that. I still use that same system today on the scrambler (which will be sold to buy this new bike :( )

Anyways, thank you all for the answers. The CB500X could fit the bill, but yes, I would need the Rally Raid kit and an improvised luggage system and seat....I will look a bit more into that one.

And yes, there is the long awaited Tenere, but still no idea when it will be here and when it does arrive if it will make it through the EU's net.

All the other ideas that were shared (Honda 500x, Kawa KLR650, CRF450L, etc.) are not available for purchase here in Spain. BTW...anyone know why that is?

Well, its like you said Mark,
"It's all about adjusting expectations to the limitations of what exists in the real world"

Im happy to adjust expectations with some wonky innovations of my own, I guess Im just A.) frustrated all these dualsport options aren't available in Spain and B.) also wondering...even if they were would they even work to travel long distances at sustained higher speeds of 100kph or above.

It depends how much offroad ability you expect to need. As tremens says, in Europe emissions regulations have killed off former favourites like the DR650 and KLR650. If you can find a good used 660 Tenere that could meet your needs. I'm not a great fan of the 500X as it's basically an adv styled road bike. If you want any real offroadability you have to spend quite a lot on aftermarket mods, and then the suspension is still a compromise. Avoid enduro bikes as said, they will kill your butt, aren't passenger friendly and are generally in a higher state of tune than you'd want for a long distance machine.

Personally, I'm waiting for the 790, which is due in Europe late this year/early next year. The T7 could be viable and that's due around the same time.

Not sure either of above bikes could realistically handle TWO UP riding with LUGGAGE. Maybe the Tenere if fitted with a WIDER custom seat? Not sure you could do it on the so skinny new Honda ... with just 25 HP. :smartass:

Well now, if your aspirations are no more than what you've already done in Indonesia, you don't have a problem. You (and a ton of Asians, Africans and others) already know that if you're either determined or bereft of other options, you'll make it work.

And I'm sure you're aware that lots of people have traveled with those larger (~650) dual sports, and only somewhat fewer with the smaller ones (~250-450), and that they can sustain speeds over 100kph. I've done this with 250 Hondas, and merely changed the oil a lot. I've done it with a 650 Kawasaki, and it lasted essentially forever. But you already know that, so what's the question? In your original post you were insisting on a far higher standard than you're likely to find in a KLR or CRF.

Mark

tenere has the most comfortable seat of all I've ridden, also for pillion.
not to mention it has very good suspension soaking up all bumps on the road nicely. I could live in xt660z seat...all day


p.s.
regarding CB500X - IMO if you add that adv kit it's no longer that much of a deal and still it's limited off-road, low ground clearance, weight etc.

Depends on the weighs of the rider and passenger :scooter:

Sure it will not be a comfortable ride !

Which bike
 

New bikes soon to be available:

Moto Guzzi V85 , promises to be the Swiss Army Knife of Adv. Touring bikes
Yamaha T7, this is the one most are waiting for.
KTM 790 ?
BMW 800 ? New offering I may be corrected here.
Others.......??

Existing:

Yamaha Super Tenere. (2012 forward) Meets most of your wants. Very reliable
KTM 1100 to 1250 ?. Meets most of your wants
BMW offerings ??. Some really like others not so much.
Ducati Multistrada IMO too techie
Moto Guzzi Stelvio. To be discontinued
Africa Twin more biased to off road
Others......??

Air cooled, easy maintenance, Jap moto’s easier to find parts.
Rebuild engines, strengthen frames, outfit for Adv. Travel

Yamaha XS650 parable twin.

Actually I didnt know that, so it's good to know :wink3:. I wasnt sure if a smaller dual sport could sustain speeds like 110 for long periods. One guy I talked to about it said "no", but he was just one guy. I know I would have to do a lot of oil changes.

My standards are not all that high, maybe I gave a false impression. If that KX150 I had in indonesia could have cruised at 110 I would have just rode it all the way back to spain and it would be parked in front of my place ;)

BTW, someone asked for a few pics of that...see below

After we sold that in Indonesia we went to Mongolia and bought a 150cc chinese bike (which we later found out was a knock-off of the real chinese brand name...imagine that, a 150cc copy of a chinese bike!) and rode two up on it for a month loaded with gear and spares off roading through the steppe. Its on trips like these (and the India to Spain on the Enfield) I grew to understand you don't need much.

That being said living in Europe there are times when I want to ride to the mountains a few hundred km away but dont want to have to quit my job and take a half year off to make sure I get there. So I need something that is highway compatible, but rugged enough that I could take it down to Africa someday. The comfort and luggage problems I can solve. (I think).

Thanks for the suggestions @NtoStravel, but I think most of those are just more bike that I am looking for. Im super small guy and not really into power and speed. And thanks @tremens for the input on the CB500. Duly Noted. And Ill check out that post you referred to @Cholo

Now Im thinking I might just look into buying some 450 off-road bike and try and make it street legal...Ill have to look into how big a headache that would be.

I assume a "450 Off Road bike" will not be street legal? Maybe you can convert it to street legal in Spain? ... but you will have other, more serious problems using such a bike.

Most non street legal Off road bikes are basically ... Race Bikes. Motocross bikes mostly or hard Enduro bikes. Trust me, they don't make good travel bikes without doing A LOT of work ($$$$)

1. The long travel suspension will not work well two up and no passenger foot rests and missing LOTS of other things too.

2. Add luggage (but where? and How?) Race bikes have NO subframe. doh
With luggage mounted, suspension gets worse as you will have too much sag in the rear. Not good, will ruin steering geometry and handling goes to Hell.

3. Lighting. Race and Hard Enduro bikes have very little if any lighting and have very low Stator output. Not good for travel. You will not have good lighting or power to run heated gear.

What is your budget? $$$$
Probably should have started with this question first!doh

Newer bikes cost a lot of money. But if you buy a nice, low Km used dual sport bike, it could be a perfect project that you can actually make into a good travel bike. :D

A standard 350 to 500cc street bike could work for you too, but a Dual Sport bike will perform better off road, is stronger and if set up right, can be a comfortable and reliable travel bike.

You need to find a bike to adapt to soft luggage, has some sort of rear sub frame and is strong enough to carry passenger and your luggage.

Even though I spent months is Spain on two long bike trips, I only visited a few bike shops. I don't know what is for sale there now and don't know what older bikes might be available.

If your budget is low, I would try to find a nice old XT600 Yamaha. Will do everything you need if set up right, is super simple, air cooled and reliable. You can find them in the UK for sale, don't know about Spain.

There are a few others that could work. Look around. bier

DR650 is a good choice. Not a perfect bike off the floor, but the accessories available is almost endless, including a range of bigger tanks from 16-30l, side cover protectors, footpeg lowering kits, carb jetting kits for more responsive power, suspension and more.

Added advantages include easy service and repair, longer service intervals (as opposed to CRF450 and the like), lower compression engine that'll run on the crappiest fuel etc. And very reliable. Air cooled means less things that break if you drop it.

There's a good reason why this bike is the most popular choice for outback riding

DR650 would be great ... only reason I didn't list it is that I don't believe you can buy one in Spain. In fact, they haven't been sold in UK or EU for like 12 - 15 years, AKAIK.

A few DR's may trickle into UK via Grey market, but rare.
Also, EU and UK do not get the KLR650 or XR650L. Yes, the DR650, KLR650 and XR650L are ALL still in production.

The UK do get some nice Yamahas that we DO NOT get in USA.

The DR650, KLR, XR650L are also sold in Australia, Canada, Ecuador and a few other countries RTW.
Single, Carb bikes can't make it past Euro 4 smog regs.

I agree - XT660Z is a very comfortable long-distance travel bike. I know people who have travelled around the world two up on one too.

I do not agree. The Rally-Raid kit for the CB500X was designed to match or exceed the performance of three key bikes: the F700GS, the XT660Z and the KLR650... As you are probably aware, I've owned both the XT660Z and helped develop the CB500X kit - and it is every bit as good as the XT off-road, and even nicer on the highway.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...wj7t2CS-XL.jpg

I'd say either are an excellent choice for the OP if they genuinely want to ride long distance, and also carry a passenger.

Jenny x

Well, that solves that....thanks mollydog...shows how much I know. I didnt even think about that fact that a motocross bike would not have a a frame that I could build a luggage system around. As for the "lightning", I have no idea what that all means but it sounds like another good reason to avoid the idea of making a motorcross bike street legal.

And thanks Jenny for weighing in on the 500x rally kit.

So Im thinking maybe, as suggested, it is a good idea to look into finding an older street legal dual sport in Spain. I checked around and there are indeed some decent looking options of mid-weight dual sport bikes here in Spain. It seems you can find them here up until about 2008 models, that must be when some EU laws squashed them.

For example, an XT600:
https://goo.gl/SA9Ra6

Here is an XT660:
https://goo.gl/Hdj4jq

And a Suzuki DR650:
https://goo.gl/vifgGr
A DRZ400:
https://goo.gl/Ly1rv1

A KTM 450 EXE
https://goo.gl/QN6utk

I already rode that 40 year old enfield through 20 countries which was great, and I still have it for putzing around, but for this bike I want something more reliable :wink3: I had in my mind to get something no older than a few years. But I suppose even if a bike is 12 years old or so...if I can find one with under 15 or 10 thousand kilometers on the ticker, it should serve me well eh? And hopefully not too hard to find parts for them?

So what do you guys think out of the models I linked to above? Im not even sure all of them have a subframe I could use to make a luggage system. Basically if there is an aftermarket rear luggage rack that can fit on it that is all I need to work off of.

I guess the downside of these dualsports is limited range (small tanks), limited oil capacity (frequent changes)...and as people have pointed out, seat comfort, which I think I can rectify to some extent.

As for budget, I have a 2015 Triumph Scrambler I will sell, I imagine I will get about 7500€ for it. So more than enough for these options.

Hi momo - I think the reason people have suggested something in the 650cc class is because you say you'd like to travel two-up, and any of the 450cc 'class' dual-sport bikes tend to be designed for solo riders, or very occasional pillion use (ie. a short lift into town or back from a pub/restaurant), not day-in and day-out touring - as there isn't the space and/or associated comfort typically, unless you go for a physically larger bike.

If you don't want to go for something like the twin-cylinder CB500X (which is only 471cc btw. and punches well above it's weight in that regard), and stick with a single-cylinder dual-sport design - then of the bikes you list above, I think the DRZ400 is going to be your best option. Plenty of people have travelled all over the world on those - they are reliable, and have far more 'street' style maintenance schedules (4000 mile oil changes as I recall), plus there is a huge aftermarket for them if you want/need a larger tank, more comfortable seat, luggage racks and engine guards etc.

I have a number of friends who use these as 'travel enduros' around Europe, and they swear by them - they are also fully street legal (if you by the S or SM version), and even the E model can be registered for the road in most European countries.

I know [some] people bemoan the lack of a 6th gear for higher speed cruising at lower revs, but to be honest the stock gearing is good for 70+mph if needs be, and most backroad and off-road touring is done at a far lower average speed.

If it were me, I'd buy a clean DRZ400SM model (slightly lower suspension, but with the USD fork from the RMZ range, and 17" wheels) and re-lace the front hub with a 19" rim. That way you'd get a 10" travel bike with 17" rear and 19" front wheels that can take a whole range of dual-sport tyres, with improved road-manners over a dedicated 18/21" wheel/tyre combo. Both the S and SM models also come with pillion foot-pegs of course.

I'd fit a larger aftermarket tank (IMS or similar), and probably look at a more comfortable seat (or at least a replacement foam and cover); and if carrying a passenger then a rack for luggage - otherwise, just a Giant Loop bag over the rear of the seat.

And 'crack on' as they say!

Hope that gives you something to go on...

Jenny x

ps. Looking at your potential budget, before you make your mind up on a single though, do check out my recent ride-report on the Rally-Raid CB500X here - it really is an excellent all-terrain travel machine.

Wow, this is great info, thanks so much for this this Jenny. So I went back and carefully read the adventure-motorcycling.com review on the CB500X and your ride report, which were both very encouraging. I also checked out the RRO website and looked at the options. I definitely see the benefit of the twin. As you pointed out will be more comfortable with a pillion, smoother on the highway, and although im not hungry for it... its always nice to have a bit more power when needed. Im finding some good looking used ones here under 10000km in the 4400€ price range. As for add ons, Im not the type to tear up too much track and push a machine just for sport and fun so I imagine I would be fine with the RR suspension kit 1 (im also only 1.73m so wouldn't be too keen on the extra 2 inches of added height). Im not even sure I could justify the tubeless tire kit. But would be curious to hear which of the RRP upgrades you would consider a "necessity" considering my needs.

Anyways, yes, I think I will keep this as an option.

But I was also sold a bit on what you had to say about the DRZ400. I found this thread which seems to add credence to the fact that you can ride one of those fairly comfortably at 70mph speeds. DRZ400 on the highway | Adventure Rider

And I can pick one up here in good condition with abou 7k km on it for just under 3900€. With all the money leftover I could modify the hell out of it and make it a pretty badass little machine. New gearing for starters, and your idea for the tires makes great sense.

Its a whole hell of a lot lighter than the CB. (146 vs 196).

Anyways...I think I've narrowed it down some at least. Thanks again everyone for the input. Hopefully this thread will help someone else out in the future.

No problem - always happy to help!

I've always thought the DRZ (SM, with a 19" front wheel) would be an excellent travel enduro - the only thing that has stopped me buying one in the past is that I've always felt the styling was a bit gawky, coupled with my general love for Honda's too of course ;o)

I have some good friends who are currently on their way to Eastern Europe from the UK on theirs - they travel every summer all over Europe (they have the E models, street-registered in the UK) and love them. On the right tyres and with a slightly smaller rear sprocket (to up the gearing) they are plenty comfortable and fast enough on road, and for general unpaved trail riding.

With regard to the CB500X - you certainly don't need to go the whole hog and fit the longer travel LEVEL 2 suspension, although for more serious off-road use the extra travel and ground clearance give you a lot more margin of course, plus the 19" front wheel offers a wider range of tyres, and generally makes the bike feel very stable and secure on off-road surfaces.

That said, the LEVEL 1 set-up (that is upgraded front and rear suspension in standard-travel length) offers a significant improvement over the stock components while retaining the original seat-height. Lisa (in the photo below) basically just has the LEVEL 1 suspension, Rally-Raid engine guard and Barkbusters fitted, plus some decent all-terrain tyres of course (Continental TKC80s in this instance - which have a dedicated 17" front size available), fitted to her stock cast wheels and therefore can be run tubeless of course.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...HBvwkwJ-XL.jpg

We have ridden together all over the western USA, and it is surprising capable as long as you consider the lower ground clearance and pick your line through rougher terrain more carefully.

So that is certainly something to consider, especially if you do envisage riding some long highway miles to get to the trail regions you want to explore...

Jx

DRZ400 SM ... and Other Issues
 

Don't know the bike market in Spain or UK for the DRZ SM, but here in California SM's sell for LOT more money than do the DRZ400-S dual sport of same year/condition. Around $1000 more, depending.

So, if you do get the DRZ ... I'd go for the S model as you don't have to go through expense and complexity to fit a 19" front wheel. Watch out for screwing up geometry and handling going from 17" front to 19". I know it's been done ... I'm not a fan of going this route.

But overall, reading everything from Momo ... you gotta go with the Honda CB500X, Rally Raid kit or not ... it's still the BEST bike for what you're talking about doing.

The DRZ is a great bike if you really want to stick to OFF ROAD. If you intend to ride mostly ROADS (either dirt, gravel or pavement) I would most definitely go with the CB500X. Faster, smoother ... and nicer on highway. I've spent significant time on highway on the DRZ400S. NO BARGAIN! I'm sure the twin is better everywhere.

If you can afford it ... do ALL or SOME of the Rally Raid kit mods. Definitely do the conversion to TUBELESS. A must do, IMHO. Suspension too if you can afford it. Bash plate and Bark Busters too!

The Honda is going to be the better "All Rounder" vs. the Suzuki, IMHO. It will also last longer once 75K km down the road. Easy to maintain, good value for money. bier

Did you miss the posts about the Honda CB500X? It's only 50cc away ... also did you see the DRZ400S posts?

There aren't a lot of current 450 dual sport bikes other than the new $10,000 USD Husky and KTM's. Both would be terrible travel bikes. Been there, done that.
:thumbdown:

I have reservations about taking the CB500X offroad in its stock form at least.
I rented one for a week in Greece and tried some trails. The CB500X is just not an offroad bike: the balance is wrong, the bike just doesn't want to go where you want her to, brakes are too agressive and the rear alloy wheel on my bike was already dented. After 10 kms of trails I was exhausted like if I had carried the bike all the way.

I'm not making here any assumption on the adventure kits, the one I had was full stock. Just saying the CB500X is not much more of an offroad bike than my good old 4-cylinder and 200+kg GSX750.

Like the OP I was also on the look for a dual-sport in Europe. Ended changing my plans and got a DR650 in Canada that I'll ride South this year.
Before doing that I thought one bike which is worth considering for the use that the OP described is the SWM superdual 650.

Another 450 is the GP450 from CCM
 

It's an interesting machine and may be the reason that CCM, the UK bike manufacturer, is in no hurry to produce a bike as the successor to their GP450.
(the same 650 engine is in use by CCM but the company are selling into a completely different market - one with far more disposable income).

Despite the name, it's actually a 600 cc engine. It's also used by Portuguese manufacturer AJP on their PR7 model.

The SWM is really the closest thing to the DR650 that one can find in Europe. Has lots of cool features.
There are however also oddities:
- The DR is waaaay cheaper. Nearly half the price. The SWM is nearly 8000 euros (ready to ride).
- The SWM is still a bit too heavy. Dry weight is above 170 kg it seems.
- Ground clearance is limited.
- Exhaust pipes routed underneath the engine, reducing ground clearance even more. Why is that? The same brand's RS650 has the pipes running around the cylinder (same engine).
- Why 2 exhausts? Adds weight and complexity.
- Seat height 900 mm with a 19"/17" wheel combo and reduced clearance. Hmpf. Yes I'm short legged :D
- 5000 kms service intervals, which is OK but I wonder why we get the 'bad' things of modern engines (FI) and not the extended service interval common to newer bikes, usually 10000 kms.

And then there's ABS and fuel injection that I wouldn't want to have on such a bike (but here we can't blame SWM, there's no way to get around that with Euro regulations).

honda was listening to this and countless similar threads and will release next year crf 450L Adventure bier

well, we wish...

I have a DRZ 400. I'd say two up would be a huge strain on the engine, it was bad enough when I started out totally overloaded. Geared to S spec I would struggle to hit 70mph, whereas my partner on his CRF250 Rally can easily get up to 70mph and stay there.

I had the SM, but it had what I thought were E wheels but it turned out the rear was a 19'. I specifically changed it for an 18 as most tyres I could source for the 19 were soft MX tyres and not hard wearing overland dual sport tyres. Also avaliability of 17 and 19 inch tyres in Central and South Asia was very difficult as most bikes have 18 and 21 inch format.

I would worry that the ali rear subframe would not take the weight of a pillion, by front subframe bolt connecting to the main frame snapped twice, it is a weak point.

OK, I am almost there. Flipflopped a bit as expected the more I read about all these options. After more considertion I eliminated the DRX400. Mostly because I agree with Fern....riding with pillion and bags on that bike is just too much to ask of it. I rode pillion and luggage on much smaller bikes all over the world in S. America and Asia, but always on shitty roads with heavy traffic that wouldnt have made me feel comfortable going above 80kph even if the little machine under me could do it.

The reality is I will be riding with a pillion quite often. And although I will likely end up in Africa/and or Asia with this bike at some point, I will also be doing plenty of highway commutes to nature areas in Europe. I think it would probably hold up, but like I said, its a lot to ask of it.

Also I realize the DR650 is just much more practical in general for the road. Sure Ill be taking it offroad, but not all the time and when I do I am not the type to rip around much.

So I focused more on comparing the pros and cons of a CB500X with a RR kit and a DR650. Both can be found used and cheap here.

And I am gravitating more towards the DR650. Here's my main reasons:

The biggest is weight. CB is a full 30 kilos heavier. And I am TINY. 1.73 meters weighing in at a whopping 53kilos (that's 5'8" 120 pounds!). So weight really matters (Its really the main thing that made me want to ditch my Triumph Scrambler in the first place).

Next is the carburated engine. I know I initially stated that fuel consumption was important to me, but the more I think about it the more I feel its also important not to be stuck in the Pamirs with some FI problem I have no idea how to tinker with.

I think what I really want is something in between the DRZ400 and the DR650...that is not fuel injected and weighs in around 155kilos. Suitable for a pillion, good off road but better on and all the other stuff I have stated I am looking for.

For now Im thinking the DR650 is not exactly what Im looking for, but it comes pretty close.

I don't know where you are hoping to purchase the bike but DR650s are very rare in Europe. I don't think they were ever sold here.

You are right, there is not a plethora here, but they seem to be around. Here are two I found for example:

a 93' model with 18,000 kilometers on it
https://www.milanuncios.com/motos-de...-253443212.htm

And a 96' model with 15,000 on it
https://www.milanuncios.com/motos-de...-257692960.htm

Which raises another question (I dont have much experience buying older bikes). How many kilometers would a bike need to have on it before you would overlook it as an option? And if the kilommters are low, but its just an old bike (like these ones...over 20 years), does the age really matter so much?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-DR...QAAOSw7UJbIYkK

I've seen DR650s doing 100,000kms+ in Australia NZ and USA before having to do anything like engine rebuilds. The thing I would be concerned about is the good alround condition. Bikes can sit doing nothing for years and things start to perish like carb rubbers and wiring looms. The wiring loom on my 2005 DRZ400 needs totally replacing, and my TT600RE 2004 bike the wiring loom is starting to crumble.

I agree with Fern - the DR650 is a great old-school trail/travel bike, but hard to find in Europe.

With regard to your concerns about the CB500X - as you know, I have a lot of experience with those bikes, and there are dozens of Rally-Raid customers [and even riders on more standard machines] who have ridden all over the world on them - including the UK to India, the length of Africa, all-round South America - they are ultra reliable and don't break down.

With the greatest of respect, the EFi vs carburettor argument in general is bollocks (as we like to say in the UK ;o) - modern EFi is just like electronic ignition and any other electrical system on a motorbike. In addition, a pressurised fuel system and filter means a fuel injector is even less likely to get blocked that a carb jet. Honestly, it is not even worth a second thought these days.

The CB500X does weigh more than a DR650 it's true - but that is because it is a far more substantial bike, with a physically larger engine and ancillaries, and a proper subframe, comfortable seat (for two people), 17.5 litre fuel tank and a fairing/screen plus decent lights etc.

Add all that lot to your DR and you'll have a bike very similar in weight, but which is more top heavy, produces less power and uses more fuel.

I think you need to ride a CB500X before you make your mind up - I guarantee you'll be impressed by the way it handles, and how light it feels (all the weight is very low and centralised between your knees).

There is a reason John and I developed the Rally-Raid Adventure kit around that particular platform, and that is because Honda got so many of the key requirements for a genuine long-distance all-terrain travel bike right with it... It's true they cut corners with some of the running gear to keep the price down to a budget level - so we just gave it the better suspension and wheels we felt it deserved.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...VWNmRz2-XL.jpg

In fact I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest it* is going to be better than any single cylinder d/s bike on the road, and better than any other twin cylinder ADV bike off-road.

*I'm talking about the LEVEL 2 Rally-Raid kitted bikes of course.


But hey, I also completely understand the attraction of a simpler, old-school bike too (I still love my XR400R for exactly those reasons), so if you can find a DR650 try and take one for a ride too before you make your mind up.

I just guarantee your passenger will prefer the Honda... as will you ;o)

Jx

Hee hee - if it ever comes, I'm confident it will be a 471L, with a T in the name too.

But that is unlikely to ever happen until the sales of the Africa Twin start to drop off significantly... it would be too real-world close.

Jx

Beware, you don't want the 93 model. You want the 96+ one (type SP46).
The newer model is lighter and has far more aftermarket support.

Well that's not really accurate. The CB500X being a twin, it spins faster and outputs indeed a wee more horsepower. But the DR650 being a 650, it's more torquey.

There is some good discourse herein.


If you want torque and old school technology then you need to look to the Suzuki DR750/800cc "BIG" single cylinder. Now, that's a single!!


Torque is far more to do with the stroke of the engine, a classic feature of 600+cc singles, than it is related to the overall engine capacity.


The point made earlier about FI is completely right: that discussion was made at length in here years ago - the argument is over.
That does not mean that one can't have a preference for carbs (two of my current 3 bikes are carb'ed) but it does mean that the FI technology is proven.



Finally, your pillion passenger needs priority consideration, as a minimum.
I have known bike passengers throw in the towel and walk away from a ride because of the self-centred person at the front of the bike.

Actually, in a first approximation, torque is proportional to engine capacity.
A good first guess is 10 Nm / 100 cc for regular 4-stroke engines not turbocharged.
A bit more than the above figure for power-optimized engines, a bit less for quieter engines.

Examples:
CRF1000L 98 Nm 9.8 Nm/100cc
Versys 650 64 Nm 9.8 Nm/100cc
WR450F 49 Nm 10.9 Nm/100cc
Multistrada 1260 129 Nm 10.2 Nm/100cc
Hayabusa 154 Nm 11.5 Nm/100cc
BMW R1200GS 125 Nm 10.7 Nm/100cc
Triumph Street 675 68 Nm 10.1 Nm/100cc

Now if you take older/quieter engines
CRF250L 22 Nm 8.8 Nm/100cc
CB500X 43 Nm 8.6 Nm/100cc
GSX750 66 Nm 8.8 Nm/100cc
DR650 54 Nm 8.3 Nm/100cc
HD 883 68 Nm 7.7 Nm/100cc
KLX150 11.3 Nm 7.8 Nm/100cc
RE Himalayan 32 Nm 7.8 Nm/100cc

Seems to hold, don't you think? :)

I never brought up the DR650 for you because I thought you would not be able to find one for sale in Spain. As mentioned, ONLY buy a 1996 or later ... the DR650SE. Pre 1996 are problematic!

I could go ON AND ON about the DR650, but I do that too much here already and folks on HUBB are likely sick of me yammering on about how great the DR650SE. :rofl:

I own a '06 DR650, lot of miles on it. Great bike but there are certain things you need to do to make it a good two up travel bike. (as with any bike!)

1. SEAT ....better seat for sure. Nice and WIDE is best!
2. Lighting. Add a HID or LED headlight bulb. Stator output on the DR650 is very low, so do anything you can to reduce electrical draw on the system.
3. Not absolute requirement but suspension upgrade really can help, especially riding TWO UP. :thumbup1:

I could go ON and ON and ON. Be sure to read about the DR650 in two places:
www.DRRiders.com - A Dedicated Suzuki DR650 forum for DR650 riders to share their knowledge, experience and adventures! This is a DR650 specific forum. Very helpful.

And ...
the DR650 thread | Adventure Rider

This, the biggest thread on ALL of ADV Rider, started in 2006, everything about the DR650 is there. Just ask ... and stand clear. doh

Jenny makes some really good points regards DR650 vs.the CB500X RR.
I'll repeat, I agree with Jenny on some of this. If you plan more paved road and more Two Up, then YES, I would go with the CB500X. It's more a street bike, has more room for two. :thumbup1:

BUT ... if really focusing OFF ROAD and riding SOLO, then I have to come down on the side of my beloved DR650. This is a super tough bike and most have NO CLUE just how tough and GOOD it is. I'll leave it there!

And Jenny, since you've never owned a DR650, I can tell you that is has a REAL subframe ...very strong one in fact. HUNDREDS have gone RTW over loaded.
Sure, a few problems but mostly reliable bike.

... and few sub frame failures. My DR650 has been to tip of Baja 5 times going ON and OFF road. Not one problem. I've ridden in Death Valley in 118F temps.
The DR didn't even notice. Smooth and quiet even hammering it over baja rocks and washboard.

Regards Carbs vs. F.I. If F.I. is so reliable ... how come we still read about quite a few break downs due to a failure of just one of the dozen components involved with an F.I. system.

I do agree, millions out there ride RTW with F.I. ... yet somehow I still read about problems. Usually problems from bad fuel. The DR650 will run on the worst crap Mexican gas. (you SHOULD filter it however)

For Two Up on a DR650, here is the sort of seat you will need:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...swmmRFM-XL.jpg
My DR650 early on. I ditched the GIVI boxes and saved 30 lbs.! The seat is a leather covered Corbin.

All's well in the world
 

Yes, but this thread is stuck with 650cc (or 450cc perhaps at the start) which in some of the detail postings becomes 600cc for the SWM engine - my point was that the thread was/is/maybe still is discussing a certain cubic capacity of engine; thereafter bore and stroke become relevant.

Honda X ADV
 

Just a quick note, not to be argumentive. The community is strongly advising the DR650, as a current new/used ride, based on its proven reliability. I go back to some previous post which indicate newer vs older, parts and service availability and the ability to put on some serious KM with reasonable off road capability.
Momo034 has indicated he is a smaller person, putting saddle height and over all weight at the lower scale.
Today I have been looking at other manufacture offerings and came on this from Honda, very interestering. Honda 750 X ADV off road / touring scooter, rather nicely equipped. As there are pannier and top box offerings for the other Honda 750 Road scooter, there should be the same for the X ADV, worth looking into?
Salty

Good to know. Good news is my budget way exceeds the pricetag of these bikes so I could just have all new wiring done

After reading this I read all these old posts on the Hubb & AdvRider about carbies vs. EFI...maybe it is a case of being afraid of what I don't know...but Im still a bit afraid. Not something that would completely put me off on it but I still think I prefer a carburetor.

I think I am mostly hung up on extra 30kilos of weight, which is not chump change. A more comfortable seat on the 650 isnt really gonna weigh much more (I know it still probably wouldnt be as comfortable as the CB500 seat), neither will putting in a good LED bulb, and others seem to think the 650 has a decent subframe already. As for the extra power, its just not something I feel I need. The only reason I still consider the CB500x is comfort, and fuel consumption. And you the other thing Im still wrestling with is the RR upgrade and which to go for. Im small as I said, 1.73m, and skin and bones, so with the extra weight of this bike I would at least like to have my feet flat on the ground or close to it. So @JMo what are your thoughts on which kit? I know the level one does not raise the seat, but does it really make much of a difference?

Anyways, perhaps your right, its worth jumping on one and giving it a ride.

Super good to know, thanks

All good to know. I found this seat that people seem to like https://goo.gl/gibS9j And this one is funny, seems would probably be pretty nice especially for a passenger, unfortunately the one review it got was pretty bad https://goo.gl/bH7nXU

Anyways, point is there seem to be options out there to make the seat more comfortable.

And yea, as for suspension, Ill have plenty of budget leftover if I do decide to go with the DR650...and if I do I might ping you for some specific advice on that.

Funny, never knew such a thing existed. I wonder if they are selling any. Probably not something that I would seriously consider but its always nice to see totally new ideas. Thanks for thinking outside the box ;)

BTW....I just had to share this in case any of you hadn't already seen it

https://goo.gl/JxKPQn

Funny thing, on paper it actually fits a lot of what I am looking for....that being said I already rode an Enfield from India to Spain and can say once was enough ;)

I don't expect to come across any overlanders on one of these things any time soon but its still a funny novelty.

"Funny Novelty" is exact right! :oops2:

There is a member here from India (I believe lives in the states now) who spent time on the Himalayan and wrote about it maybe 6 months or year ago.

Very critical review. I would not expect the bike to do well in mud ... TIP ... the DR650 or CB500X won't do it well either!

But the reality is the Enfield fails in numerous important areas. I would avoid like the plague.

If you read the forums I linked for you you'll find at least 6 seat choices.

A German guy on the DR Riders forum recently joined. He talked about his DR650 just recently bought ... it's a nice one and he says they ARE around in Germany. read the thread.
Who Knew? Check it out:

https://drriders.com/hola-folks-t22376.html

Hi Momo, I think one of the best pieces of advice you've received so far was from Walkabout:

Currently you are scrutinising every little specification detail, rather than looking at the bigger picture...

You say you need a bike for 'touring' with some off-road use, and fundamentally with a passenger.

With the greatest of respect, if you're 120lbs and 1.73m, I can't see how you're going to be riding any bike two-up, with luggage, over anything that you might consider 'serious' off-road - so you need to focus on where the two of you will be riding primarily, which is on paved and rough dirt roads.

Without diverting back into spec comparisons too deeply, consider the DR650 has a seat that is three inches higher than the CB500X - again, if you're short[er] and not particularly strong, then the weight of two people and their luggage sitting higher is going to have far more effect on how many times you drop your bike than the actual overall weight... and if you don't drop it in the first place, then you won't need to pick it up of course!

Sure you can always lower a DR650 - but then you've just removed the only potential advantage it does have over a stock CB off-road, ground clearance and suspension travel...

Unfortunately, if you are a shorter rider and not overly strong, then that is always going to be at odds with more dirt-orientated dual-sport design bikes... and something that is a little closer to the ground (ie. a more street-derived/orientated ADV bike), would seem to be a more appropriate choice - which is why I suggested the CB500X (with the LEVEL 1 standard travel/seat-height suspension), the RR engine guard and some decent tyres - basically exactly the same set up that Lisa (in the photo I posted previously) has:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...KPNmKbN-XL.jpg
photo. you don't need the Scorpion exhaust, but it saves a bunch of weight and looks/sounds kewl ;o)

For info. Juan Browne (who has a lot of CB500X videos on YouTube) is also around your height, and has no problem riding his LEVEL 2 (+2" travel) bike, but he is an experienced off-road rider, and only ever rides solo...


I'd suggest if you're looking to move things forward now, then consider joining a dedicated forum for the two bikes you have in mind - and ask more specific questions [based on your personal requirements] from owners there, and I'm sure there will be a lot of answers to questions you may have, posted there already.

I'd then seriously get a ride on examples of the bikes on your short-list, and with your passenger too - as Walkabout suggests, do not discount this element as it will be an intrinsic part of how any future trips are going to be enjoyed.

Finally, if the bike you do end up with doesn't turn out to be ideal for what you want, sell it and buy something else... it's only a bike at the end of the day.

Hope that helps...

Jx

I agree with Jenny, get test rides if you can! And try it two up! Only way to know for sure! :thumbup1:

Thanks I hadnt found that forum yet, could come in handy. I also hadn't really given serious thought to looking on Ebay if I do indeed go with a DR, but I guess there's no reason not to. I'd be a good excuse to be able to ride it back home ;)

I agree also...the point about pillion comfort is not to be understated. I'm trying to keep that in mind

I guess I'm not sure what serious off road is to other riders, probably more serious that what I am used to. But I can say I did some pretty tough muddy/snowy roads in Kyrgyzstan, and the Pamir Highway in Tajikistan (Wakhan valley route) all fully loaded and with a passenger...on a 1979 Royal Enfield without a single modification to enhance it's performance. I also did about 6000km two-up fully loaded in Mongolia, about 4,000 of it off road, on a 150cc bike. I guess just to make the point that it can all be done at 120lbs AND with horrible machines, not because I am a great rider, but because A.) both those bikes were super low which gave me better control B.) Neither was excessively heavy, and C.) I take it pretty easy ;)

But yes, seat height is definitely important in my case...so is weight. But maybe seat height even moreso, so guess that's a plus one for the CB500x.

Anyways, I've got it narrowed down to these two, which I feel is a great accomplishment. So as you have all prescribed Im gonna try and ride some.

BTW @JM0, I watched some of Juans videos...including the one where he and you compare the level 1 to level 2 RR kit...helpful. Thanks.