So was I. We don't use small bikes for anything other than extended weekend trips, usually supported (enduro style riding).

Like I said- we move in different circles and each to his own

Well - "small bikes" - I havent even mentioned that term at all. So I dont know why you brought that in? And weekendtrips are also not what Im talking about here.

As I said - never heard of an overlander going up in bike and equipment size (have you?) - but heaps of them (almost all) are downsizing. Which clearly indicates that most people in general think they will be better off with bigger bikes than ideally is the best. And thats a fact!

Anyhow - maybe get the thread back on track again....

Maybe it's semantics, but you said people go smaller. To me, any single cylinder is potentially a small bike. There's not much difference in weight between an XR600 and an XR350. So small bike to me is a trail bike. And this includes 'big' trailbikes like Tenere, KLR and DR's.

I did plenty of traveling on bikes ranging from 350-650cc (singles). I still have singles. If I have a choice for riding, I take one of the big bikes. And this is not just me, but most of my mates as well. Like I said- we move in different circles. Very few of my mates have gone bike to small bikes.

But regardless, this discussion is pointless. You have your opinion. My original point being- its your opinion and not facts. Maybe its based on your experience, but still an opinion. I have mine, based on my experience. We can have a pissing contest to see who's got the most experience, but what would the point in that be?

You made the statement before "Nobody wishes they brought more stuff and bigger bikes - everybody wishes they had less stuff and smaller/lighter bikes" and you ask again "never heard of an overlander going up in bike and equipment size (have you?) " and I stated (twice) my friends are different to yours because most of us prefer bigger bikes.

So just by that - you have heard people prefer bigger bikes, you just refuse to accept it. Pointless discussion.

As for your other comments about not being prepared, wishing for things you had. Again- your preference. Me and some other people prefer the motto 'better to have and not to need, than to need and not to have'

Each to his own, i.e. every person has/are entitles to their own opinion. And that's a fact!!

Sarcasm and bigotry seldom make good advices and not in this case either.

I wish you could raise your head a bit above that minor circle of mates you keep on refering to - then you might get a bigger picture of the subject. Mollydog for example - earlier on in this thread says exactly the same as I do and he is a very experienced guy. And the same advices are given by world travellers from all over the world.

Choosing a bike to travel with will always be a compromise - reliability, size, weight, brand etc etc. Most experienced guys that have crossed a continent or two will tell you that you will seldom benefit from having a big and heavy bike when it comes to overland trips and that weight means almost EVERYTHING going offroad. Then its up to each and everyone to listen and make their choice.

Of the 3 bikes mentioned by TS - I have already pointed in a direction and said what I mean. And I can repeat it - relatively good bikes all of them but none are good off road bikes. Theyre at least 50-75 kilos too heavy.....

Each to their own of course - but it wont hurt listening to persons who have been there and done that.

Safe riding.

It wasn't meant as sarcasm or bigotry mate. My apologies.

Just some travel journals of 'big bike preference':

1. Oisin Hughes did his 1st journey through the America (PanAm highway north to south on both continents) an an 1150GS. When he finished, he did his next trip on a 1200GS through Europe/Asia (Dublin to New York).
2. Helge Pederson did 8 years on a R100. Then tried a 650GS for 2 months and went back to a big GS
3. Emilio Scotto did 457 000 miles & 279 countries on a Goldwing. If that was such a mistake, don't you think he would have changed his machine for something smaller? For the 1st few years, he had no sponsorships. In fact not even Honda wanted to sponsor him, so no bigotry in decision making

There are plenty of examples out there. It's not a matter of me and my "minor circle of friends". And if you put any faith into statistics, the large ADV motorcycles outsell the small/medium motorcycles by a sizeable margin. Accepted, all these people may not go offroad, or know what they are doing, but still, there are more people out there thinking big than there are thinking small.

I did not disagree with what you or Molly said about the concept of thinking of a lighter bike. What I've been disagreeing with is your 'statements' of 'facts', because they are not facts. Simply your opinions which I do respect.

I disagree with Mollydog on many things, including soft/hard luggage debate, but Mollydog didn't flog his recommendations/opinions as facts. Had he done so, I would have commented the same. I respect every person's opinion, but there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to travel, and we're all different with personal preferences and needs.

I think the three travellers you mention are the exception these days. I know you could add Ewan and Charlie to the list and there are probably dozens of people currently travelling on 1200GSs but even so the trend in Europe is towards smaller lighter bikes. There are currently several 650cc bikes available that are quite capable on the road and much easier to handle off road and as travelling light is the way to go we no longer need the overweight 'beast of burden'.

You both make very good, cogent arguments ... and both have provided food for thought to me and everyone! bier I doubt the OP knew what he was getting in for here! :smartass:

BTW, I don't see bigotry or sarcasm in any posts here ... just differences of opinion ... and possibly some misunderstandings. :innocent:

In terms of "Trends" in bikes I must say I see many riders, especially newer, younger, poorer and less experienced riders going with smaller bikes. Will they stay on a 125cc bike? Some will, some will move up. Remember, many never rode bikes before ... so would be dumb to start off on a R1200GS.

Guys with more experience and talent can handle a big bike, plenty of the old guard still out there on the road. :thumbup1: Part of (IMO) what is fueling this perceived shift to smaller bikes in one segment of riders is AGE.

For me, at 68, I no longer have the strength (or bottle) to handle a GS or KTM. I'm also too short and no longer willing to ride aggressive enough to make it through tough sections. If you don't attack it, it will beat you.
I did through my 30's 40's and 50's so I DO have experience on the big bikes.
GS, Vstrom Tigers, Capo Nord, Buell.

And as mentioned at great length ... both have advantages and disadvantages.
For new riders, experience is the best teacher. And, IMO, new riders SHOULD be starting out on small bikes ... then ... if they want to ... can move up to something bigger.

But for most doing long journeys are more often road rides as opposed to dirt rides. More adventurous folk will go off Piste and explore. For this, (for me) I prefer something I can lift and won't kill me if it falls on me. My DR650 is borderline OK ... off road I still have to be careful when she's loaded. So, many riders stay on road on big bikes. All good.

bier

I purposely left out C&E because they are sponsored and hence by definition biased.

True, we don't 'need' the beast of burden, but very few people tend to buy what they need. LOL

If we did, we'd probably all be riding postie bikes or similar because you don't really need more than that ;-)

I havent said that there is a right or a wrong way to ride or to do things.
All I have said is that a lighter bike is easier and lighter to handle - and especially when and if going offroad.

And using statistics for what? Justin Beaver sells a lot of records and concert tickets - so he must be a fantastic artist??? McDonalds sells more food than any other restaurant chain - thus using your way of "proving" things it must be the best restaurant with the best and healthiest food around...

About your examples - that guy you claim did 279 countries. Quite strange that there arent more than some approx - 190 countries in the world. You must not belive in all exaggeration you hear....
And without checking facts - I do belive a 1200 GS is lighter than a 1150 GS.
Anyhow - you can also run a marathon in army boots - its possible and might even have some advantages. But I would prefer doing it in something more suitable. And then we are back to the question of the TS of which bike is best suited for his needs. You can go around the world in anything you like of small and big bikes, 50 cc Vespas or 1800 cc Goldwings. But what are the best suited from an objective - or as objective as possible perspective?

Taking a big bike will actually limit one from going on some real off the beaten track. So why take a bike that limit your choices of where to go?
If youre only doing paved roads and a relatively smooth gravel road now and then - you can take any bike, big or small. But if youre heading where most people dont go - youre much better of with a lighter bike. These are facts wheter you like it or not. If youre a hell of a skilled rider you can get quite far with a big bike too - but most people are not. And especially thinking about persons who ask for advice and are uncertain about what bike to take.

There are as you say no right or no wrong way or wrong bike. But there are choices that makes it easier for an unexperienced rider.

Heres some reading from Walter Colbatch of the choiche of an adventure bike. He has been riding The Road of Bones and BAM in Siberia several times and is a quite experienced guy. I think the classic observation is in there somewhere where they met different guys doing those very hardcore offroad roads in Siberia. They met guys with Superteneres and GS/GSAs and they came through these roads with their bikes in the back of a truck. They just couldnt get through those roads on those huge bikes. Then they met some guys on single cylindered 650s - and those guys said that it was freaking hard but they were able ro get through after a lot of hard work. And at last they met some guys on 250s and they told that it was just awesome and completely fun....

http://www.sibirskyextreme.com/2013/...selection-101/

Don't know what he classed as a country. Maybe he widened his definition of country and included micronations and governments in exile as well. Maybe he visited the same geographic location twice, but the country name changed? But his book is record and his journals are available for review. I found them very entertaining.




Completely agree- depending on the application, a small bike can be the best way to go. Remember the section where the camera man road around Charlie and Ewen on the little single cylinder and they had the beamers stuck upto the axles? :biggrin3:

Personally, I just find smaller bikes too limiting for long distance travel. (vibration, lack of power, cramped and uncomfortable riding position, lack of decent wind protection etc.) That's just me. I'm bigger than the standard 70kg "Japanese model rider" and prefer the middle class big machines (e.g. 750-1000cc multi-cylinder). The 1% of the time I'm 'stuck in the mud' wishing for a smaller machine is nothing compared to the 60+% of frustration for me on a small bike. bier

Hmm, I'm not experiencing those downsides at all on my 250 (WRR). It's actually less viby than my BMW Dakar (which was a pig in comparison). Prefer to not have a screen on it too.

It's all about frame of reference and choice of terrain. If you only have to deal with being in mud 1% of time you're probably not on demanding terrain much. So a size matters little. That does mean you're limited though. But that also depends on how much of something you can put up with.

I didn't say I have to deal with mud 1%: I meant the 1% its so bad I wish I had a smaller bike

I don't know if the riding I do can be called challenging by other people. I post some pics and you can decide for yourself.

But- my message throughout has been (and still remains) - big bikes are just as capable as small bikes.

I accept they may be more of a handful, but just as a $1million sportscar don't make you a race driver (or even a good driver), neither does a bike. Best advise I can offer- buy the bike you love/like and learn to ride it properly. And if that is a small bike, great. If you prefer a big bike, great. I certainly do not let the size of a bike dictate where I go- it simply means less/more work and time depending on the application (i.e. to me, 1000km/day on a small bike is as much a pain as 50km of mud running on a big bike). To me an all-rounder needs to do everything I want 'reasonably' and I find for my riding/application big bikes are better.

My last Africa trip I used an XR650L for the 1st two weeks and a 1200GS for the last two weeks (think it was around 9kkm, but its a bit hazy now). I preferred the GS to the XR. With limited luggage, the XR struggled to reach 120km/h with 'my bulk' on it. It was OK in the ruff-stuff, but the I've done some of these tracks before on various bikes and I know the GS would have been more than capable of surviving the river crossings and other techy bits. And the single cylinders loose power quickly at altitude.

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psnpoqrn9h.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psdd0fehce.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psq7xufvts.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...e255Medium.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v..._IMGMedium.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...0678Medium.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...1200Medium.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...1184Medium.jpg

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psc85264fe.jpg

To me those photos prove they are not as capable. A small bike would ride that, not be man handled or pushed up. Big difference.

But it's whatever you prefer. I wouldn't recommend this at all personally. Particularly to newbies.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

I have to disagree to what you say about vibration, incomfortable riding position and lack of wind protection etc. Big singles are said to vibrate the most and I have now owned 3 different of those, a Dr 650, a Dominator 650 and a Tenere 660. Although they do vibrate a little - it has never bothered me to an extent its a real problem. A 250 of which I have experience with the Crf250L and a Klx 250 do not vibrate at all compared to 650s singles. Actually the bike I have owned that vibrated most was the Transalp 600 which was a heavy bike of 195 kilos dry and with V-twin engine. So to say that small bikes vibrate more doesnt make sence at all to me.

Most smaller bikes that I have experience with are taller and have wheels of 21 and 18 and actually many of the biggest so called adventure bikes are lower and comes with 19/17 wheels. Thus I cant find much compliance in what you say about this subject and reality.
Wind protection and such - well its what you put on your bike and what equipement you fit. There might be more choises for wind protection for bigger bikes - thats a point but personally I often prefers less protection. High windscreens twnd to give buffeting issues and are thus uncomfortable. Often better results if you cut off 10 cm on the windscreen.

I see that in a later post you complane about a bike that had problems reaching 120 km/h. Well - if your ideas about adventure riding is to ride on roads that one can ride in + 120 km/h and on bikes that can easily pass that speed when loaded up - we might have a totally different idea about adventure riding. I recently rode from northern Europe to Australia with many detours and approx. 80 k kms and I can count one hand the times I rode in 120 km/h or more and I can probably count in two hands the roads and stretches this were possible. In most of the world roads riding in 120 km an hour is not possible. And certainly not interesting....its the winding back roads, gravel roads, mountain roads etc that are interesting. Not a boring straight forward highway/freeway/motorway.

And when you say dont let the size of a bike dictate where you go I cannot do anything else that smile - because the size of the bike WILL dictate where you are able to go. Thats a fact....

I agree it can be more difficult on a larger bike offroad. As for the photos- I didn't bother posting pictures of 'smaller' machines being stuck. Just of areas where I ride with big bikes as an example. E.g.

• the picture of the AT stuck in the riverbed with me trying to get it out- there were four bikes on that trip, my AT, an 1150GS and 2 x Dakar 650. We turned around because the Dakar riders were not comfortable with where we're going and the type of terrain they had to traverse. They could not get through on smaller machines. And I got the AT stuck because I misjudged the line, the ditch was too steep and I stalled the bike on the 1st go. Rider error- not bike related.
• The picture of the AT having a rest on the slope - I had a very capable mate riding with me on a 690 enduro (more capable than me). We were trying to find a track/line up the hill and through the breakaways. He quit because it was too hard he was not having fun (on a bike and equipment weighing 60+kg lighter). Unless we were going to physically lift the bikes up over a two meter breakaway, the smaller bikes would not have made much difference.
• the 2016 photo - I led us down the mountain on a washed out track without recce-ing it 1st (my bad). It used to be a one-way down 4x4 track, but recent rains washed it out completely and we ended up walking all the bikes down because it was not possible to ride them. That includes the XT600. We also needed to 'make' some areas where we could get the bikes over and down gullies. A very skilled trails rider would have been able to ride it, but size did not matter on that downhill. That same trip I was blessed enough to see how an experienced rider on a 270+kg Varadero can make the rest of us look like amateurs through sand, gypsum dunes, rocky tracks and more.
• the picture of the track running down the hill with 800GS having a rest - I was on a smaller machine (XR650L). The rider 'lost' the bike because he is a tight arse that didn't fit new tyres before the trip. He had problems with traction and it was not a bike-related problem. There was not one spot where the XR was a definite advantage above the heavier 800GS and for the most part of the trip I could not keep up with my mate when the going got ruff.

So IMO, to make a statement like 'a small bike would ride that' is a bit condescending without you knowing the background behind it, and the exact circumstances. Don't mistake rider error for machine deficiency.