gasket leaking ...big problem or not?
 

hello everybody,
happy with my just bought 93 XT
but... there is oil leaking
It is the gasket at the bottom of the cylinder that is leaking
( not verry much but it does smell when the engine is hot, a mecanic told me that it is nothing to worry about,
I plan a trip to Mongolia(2 on the bike), so I expect rough roads, high temperatures....
Is this treally inocent?
How difficult it is to replace this gasket? ( I am waiting for a workshop manual(...thanks Dakota) is it possible to do for an amateur?
Thaks for your much appreciated replies
Pol

The question is; Why has the base gasket blown?
Has the engine been rebuilt?
I believe the most common reason for a base gasket to blow is excessive crankcase pressure due to a build up of oil in the crankcase as the oil scavange fails. I think you should investigate you don't want a failed oil pump half way to Mongolia, or at all for that matter

lot of questions...
 

I dont know if the engine was rebuild, there are clear signs of previous oil leak on the top of the crankcase.
how to investigate the problem?

again, is this possible by an amateur?(the download of the workshop manual is running(slow but running)...

sorry to be an amateur (mecanic)...

Pol

Are you sure it's the base gasket?
It's quite common for oil to appear in this area, on the right side of the engine, due to stripped threads on the long clutch cover bolts that also hold the oil filter cover.

Its not a regular problem and it should be addressed.

When gaskets leaks, it needs investigating.

Maybe the barrel wasnt torqued down properly, maybe the gasket is badly seated etc.

Personally, I would strip it down and replace it.

personally I would clean it so it was completely dry. Then ride the bike to determine 'exactly' where the oil was coming from, and in what quantities.
Riding it may help determine the cause also. You may find you might want to strip it down for another reason, so why do the work twice ( blind).

I do my best
 

thanks so far folks,
I did clean the spot , it is not clear for 100% yet, it is difficult to see where the oil comes from,
I will repeat it today to make sure, I 'll let you know



Pol

timeing chain tensioner
 

hi.

I had a similar oil leakage on my bike,allways a little smear of oil around the barrel after a ride.That turned out to be the timeing chain tensioner gasket.So do chek every possible thing before you rip it apart, valve covers, top cover´, breather pipes etc.. just a feve drops of oil from a loose cover or a cracked breather pipe can smear around and make things look worse than they are.

Finding oil leaks
 

Leaks can be hard to find. One thing I have done is clean the engine and then spray it down with a spray powder such as athletes foot spray. Or find some fine dry dust and coat the motor. Then when you run it the spray powder will discolor immediately letting you know where the leak is. If you are really new to working on overhead cam bike motors maybe try your first tear down on something not so crucial? Volunteer to help any of your more knowledgeable friends or find a wrecking yard that will let you tear down a already ruined motor for parts.

bad luck
 

Hi everybody, bad luck indeed, :stormy: it is the cylinder gasked leaking (and the cover as well:rolleyes2: )
For I am in de middle of the prep, and already have to face these kind of mecanic problems on my bike.....:funmeterno:
I don't have the tools, the time and experience to open up the whole engine...

SO........I went to see a second hand motorshop, they still offer me a fair price for the 93 model when buying a 2002 model............I think I'll go for it

Thanks for all advices and usefull tricks, I hope I will not need them anymore riding a (almost:innocent: ) new(-er) bike
So thanks again
See you on the road some.....
Pol

Maybe a good choice.

Still, dont let them knock more than £150 off the value of your leaky one. Its only a gasket.

More leaking gaskets
 

Sorry to read about the gasket problem - your solution does seem to be an "extreme" way of solving it but I reckon I understand that:--- read on!

I also have found an oil leak in my 2001 TT600R. In my case it is definitely coming from the crankcase cover joint on the left hand side and maybe from the right hand side as well!! When I first noticed it, I hoped it was the breather pipe(s) but it seems not the case.

Anyway, I reckon it is getting worse after my last ride of the bike and the manual I have says that Yamaha use "Yam Bond" sealant instead of a proper gasket.

My questions are: does anyone have any advice or experience in using this Yam Bond stuff and is opening up the crankcase covers (both sides) a straight forward "experience" ??

Thanks in anticipation,

Dave

tightening everything
 

hey, it looks like your problem is solved but I just wanted to add my 2 cents...

I bought an 89 xt600 and found the right case to be leaking heavier than I thought it was. I got all bummed but then finally took a wrench to it and found a missing bolt! replaced that and tightened up everything else, it was amazing how much was loose. When buying a used bike I recommend taking a tork wrench to everything and checking the specs on anything you know how to get to.

with a little help...
 

Hello every body,
Me again... After checking again and again , considering the problem with some (mechanic minded) friends...,(still it was not obvious where the oil came from..
I did ride my bike every time to discover the leak and...maybe the oil coming from the side cover is pushed up by the wind and makes it realy look like it is coming from the cylinder gasked
I go for the replacement of the gaskets, starting with the one from the side cover..

I can use the workshop of a friend and he will help me at critical moments...

Thanks Dakota for the workshop manual.
I'll let you all know how things work out...
Pol

Same for me
 

Hi Pol,
That is what is happening with my bike basically; the oil is blowing back from near the front of the "gasket" on the crankcase cover (which I believe is Yamaha Bond stuff according to the information that I have about the TT engine). Then it covers various other bits of the bike, but I am pretty sure it is from the cover.

So, are you using the bonding stuff or getting/making a gasket? - I have not played around with the engine much so any advice would be great!!

By the way, what is your workshop manual like - on a cd?

Dave

reply on :same for me
 

hello,
I did order a gasket for the (right side) cover...he did not mention any "bond" so I presume it is a rubber or paper gasket, next week I 'll know more

the XT workshop manual (you can find the link to download it under the treat ( XT workshop manual)
I did need the help of some Internet wizard to get it downloaded completely,(I am an :innocent: ignorant myself) but he succeded , he will bring me the CD and a printed version

see U (and have fun:eek3: )
Pol

Yamabond is a sealant ,it comes in a tube ,it is very good for sealing metal to metal joints .
The normal one to use is Yamabond 4 , or another one you could use is Three Bond 1104 ,which I think is made by 3M .

Oil leak continues
 

Hi Pol and Dodger,
Thanks for the info. My engine is a 3AJ00 (I guess the last bit is the year of manuf). I am not too sure any more where the oil is coming from - as discussed earlier in this thread, it is not easy to tell when it is blowing around in the wind.

I cleaned up the bike, took it for a ride and tried to watch it at the same time - got a bit carried away though and forgot for a while; the next time I looked there was quite a bit of oil on both sides of the engine!!:( On the right it is not easy to see anyway while riding because of the exhaust pipe.

Pol,
Do you have the same engine (3AJ)? If so, do you have part numbers for the gasket(s)? I'll have a look at that thread for the manual after this posting anyway. Have you got any hot tips for removing the crankcase cover (things to look out for and that sort of thing!)?

Dodger,
Ta for that; there is no mention in my info about different types of Yam Bond!

Cheers,

Dave
:funmeterno:

Oil leaking still but much more information now!!
 

Well, I have now figured that the Yam Bond stuff is for the joint in the 2 halves of the crankcase itself and not the covers (so that's OK then!).

Pol,
I did the search and I now have loads of downloads of manuals from earlier threads on here, including the Yamaha part numbers: ref above, I confirm that there are indeed gaskets for both crankcase covers (and I now have the numbers:- RHS = 4DW-15462-00).

So, now I have to clean up the engine (again!!) and run it to find out just where the oil leak is (problem is that the oil does not appear on ticking over).

Dave

Grateful for any advice!!
 

Pol,
Sorry to have butted in on your thread with my own problem, but it was because we seem to be dealing with a very similar issue.


Everyone who is interested!,
My situation now is:-

I had the "great" idea of wrapping masking tape around the crankcase cover joints on both sides of the bike wherever I thought the oil leak to be; this based on the earlier suggestion of using some kind of powder for this purpose; so with the tape wrapping in place I have just got back from riding the bike.

The result is that on tick over with a warmed up engine there is no obvious evidence of oil leaking. After riding about a mile at low revs there are signs of slight oil weeping around the back of the engine with nothing significant on or around the masking tape.
After riding about another mile at higher revs there was a "lot" of oil "swilling" about behind the engine and it looks very much as if it is coming from the gasket between the engine cylinder and the crankcase. The masking tape was still intact and slightly oil stained from splashing oil but it had not lifted off and there was no sign of oil coming from under the tape. Also, there is no sign of oil coming from the cyl gasket at the front of the bike i.e. it is quite localised to behind the engine.
I have tried tightening the bolts around this area (along with other bolts in general) but am concerned about stripping threads if over-tightened (can't get a torque wrench in there).

Grateful for any advice about the way forward for me!! Right now I feel like doing as Pol mentioned above and going for a trade-in for whatever it is worth in this condition!!!!!!!!!!!!!:funmeterno: :helpsmilie:
In particular, I have not stripped down an engine before.


As a recap, I haven't had this bike very long, I don't know it's history but it is a low mileage TT600R, 2001 model with the 3AJ00 engine. I have had the 2 flexible oil pipes off the top of the crankcase and they seem to be not blocked and in good condition.

Cheers,

Dave

In two minds!!
 

I've been reading a cd manual for this engine - the bits about stripping the engine anyway!.
I'm in two minds about attempting to change the cylinder gasket myself; like Pol in earlier posts in here, "on a bad day" I am tempted to shop around for a trade-in for another bike and, there again, on another occasion, I think that it can't be all that bad!!

So, I am still looking for anyone who can give advice about the level of difficulty involved - from reading the manual I would need a gasket set & I should be able to get the cylinder head off without dismantling the valves/cylinder head; does anyone disagree with this?
Also, the cylinder will then come off more or less directly and then I can change the leaking gasket.

Specific questions (I am thinking of doing this with the engine still in the frame):-

1. What to look out for in both the dis-assembly and re-assembly? e.g. getting the cylinder back over the piston rings when putting it back on the bike.
2. Should anything else be replaced while the engine is opened up? (bolts?).
3. Anything "awkward" about putting the timing back in place? In fact, should the bike engine be stripped with the timing in a particular "position"?
4. Should the engine bolts be "loctited" on re-assembly or not?

Those are the questions that came to mind from reading, but "reading" is not the same as "doing" I have learnt the hard way in the past so ANY advice on this subject, for or against is very, very welcome!!:helpsmilie:


Quite a few folk have read this thread so one or more of you must be able to advise,

Thanks,

Dave

Just a thought, if you have recently oiled your air filter, or if the oil from the breather is blowing in to the airbox. You can get it dripping from the airbox seam on to the sort of area you refer to. I chased my tail for ages once looking for a leak on mine.

Dave,

The answers to your questions are all to be found in the manual, if it's not clear in the factory one (which is aimed at mechanics) then ideally get yourself one from say Clymer or Haynes (assuming they do/did one for the XT?). It would take someone an age to tell you how to strip and rebuild the top end of the engine in the detail you need if you've not done anything like this before wheras it'll all be in a anual including photo's etc.

If you are handy and have a good quality toolkit then doing the job yourself can be very rewarding but there are many things that you could do wrong unless you take care and follow the intructions carefully.

Are you sure the head/cylinder will come off with the engine in the frame? If the manual says it will fair enough, I just can't remember!


Finally, as modern bikes go, the XT is a simple one and relatively easy to work on and learn from, so good luck. Take it slow, don't force anything and when you put it back together make sure everything is surgically clean.

Oil leak continues
 

Leigh,
I am pretty sure that it is the gasket following my "experimentation" described earlier. In addition the oil tank on the TT600R is much nearer to the oil leak than the airbox which is some distance from the engine, as it happens, and the oil tank is oil tight and clean in appearance. When I said earlier that the leaked oil is "swilling" about, this equates to the dip stick going from showing full to low in a ride out of something over 100 miles: for me that is a fair bit of oil to lose.
Having said that, I am going to do the test with masking tape once more to confirm what is going on but it will be around the cylinder gasket next time.

Rickg,
I have a manual on cd - it is not as detailed as those published with many pics (but it has a few) & it gives the basics including exploded line diagrams and it does say that the cyl and piston can be inspected with the engine in the frame - of course this is not the same as working on the engine!! Anyway, if I do the job it won't be much more effort (by the time I find out) to drop the engine out if I find that is needed?! :rolleyes2:

So, I was not looking for step by step guidance, more the case of "hot tips" for what goes wrong and what else can be done (e.g. changing bolts) while it is in bits - I am used to the fact that it is much easier to take something, anything, apart than it is to put it back together again correctly!

I originally got the bike for the simplicity of it, including the engine; I wanted something simple after multi-cylinder bikes with fuel injection - on the downside it is proving to have many more issues than any bikes I have owned since year dot which kind of negates the original simplicity theory!!!!!:stormy:

I am still up for any more ideas before I take the next step; fortunately my wife has a bike that does not have problems and I can always ride that!!

Dave

Don't be afraid, there's a first time or everything
 

Gentlemen,

Replacing the cylinder gaskets is about *** on the scale of *****, but: no guts no glory as they say in the US.
First step, determine indeed where the leakage comes from. As earlier said, clean the engine on the outside thoroughly, then spray talcumpowder on all surfaces. Drive a bit, you'll see where the oil comes from.
Then, buy yourself a manual. Indispensable!
Then, having determined the origin of the leakage, you can do a precision attack on the problem. If it's just R/H or L/H cover, it's an easy trip home: * on *****. On the L/H cover, besides the gasket, also replace the two O-rings.

If it's cilinder base of head gasket, it gets a bit more challenging. See below for some tips.

Specific questions (I am thinking of doing this with the engine still in the frame):-
++ Yes, you can do this with the engine in the frame. Take care about the one Allen bolt in the valve cover that is hidden between the upper frame - engine connection bracket.
1. What to look out for in both the dis-assembly and re-assembly? e.g. getting the cylinder back over the piston rings when putting it back on the bike.
++ That's a bit tricky, be careful, use the tapered edge at the cilinder base, and lubricate everything liberally. If you have to force anything you are doing it wrong.
2. Should anything else be replaced while the engine is opened up? (bolts?). ++ No, just gaskets: cilinder base gasket AND O-ring, cilinder head gasket, the two small oil seals in the oil channel. Exhaust sealing rings: depends on their state. Carb connection to cil head: no, just seal the connection with some of the same fluid gasket you use for the valve cover.
Use ONLY Yamaha original gaskets. The rest is a waste of money, you'll be repeating the procedure in a few months time. Beleive me, I know.
3. Anything "awkward" about putting the timing back in place? In fact, should the bike engine be stripped with the timing in a particular "position"?
++ Putting timing back in place: not difficult. The sequence is: install cil head, install chain guide, install camshaft, adjust timing, fix the two gearwheel to camshaft bolts with locktite. Put piston in Top Dead Center, end of compression (the cam lobes point down towards crankshaft. This way you'll have no problem installing the valve cover. This also applies to removing the cover.
Only when the valve cover has been installed and all bolts tightened you install the chain tensioner.
The valve cover is installed with fluid gasket. This must dry at least 24 hrs before you start the engine.
4. Should the engine bolts be "loctited" on re-assembly or not? ++ No. The engine - to frame bolts must be torqued correctly, or, be very tight, as the engine is a structural part of the frame.

Some more advice:
- Work very clean
- Clean the inside of the cil head and the piston crown from carbon deposits with a wire brush on an electric drill
- Before moving from one step to another, or fastening a gasket, check that you did not forget anything, like a small seal, small bushes, etc. They are there for a reason!
- Install a fresh spark plug while you're there
- Leave the piston on, if not, you MUST use new clips that keep the piston pin in place
- Take care that nothing falls into the crankcase. Best to cover with a rag
- Make a carton with holes in the pattern of the bolt holes of the valve cover, put the bolts in the carton upon disassembly. This saves hours finding out which length of bolt should go where

That should see you through..
Auke

Thanks due once more!!
 

Thanks a million Aukeboss!

That is really good information; as I mentioned, I have a cd manual with torque values, sequence of working etc etc but it is those tips of yours that make the difference - I can see exactly what you are saying about the relationship of TDC to the ease of removing/fitting the cyl head cover for example.

I have not done the talc powder test - I assumed it would blow off in the wind and the bike does not appear to leak at tick-over revs. But I'll give it a go for the experience!!

I can see me doing this job - my problem has been that I got the bike to ride (obviously) and it has been a case of one thing after another since then. This is just the latest in a series of problems with this particular bike and I have been wondering if it is a "Friday afternoon" case or if it has been run-in wrongly in the past or whatever!! I have also been starting to double-guess what is the next thing to go wrong!!:rolleyes2:

Reading online about the "instant gasket" stuff a bit more, there seems to be a few different types around - is there one that can be spread onto an existing genuine gasket insitu to help in sealing the engine? - just a thought.

By the way, any theories about why gaskets blow "prematurely"?

Still up for any more guidance/thoughts etc on this topic - Pol how are you getting on?


Dave

Oh joy!
 

Well, at least it is confirmed; the oil is leaking from the gasket between the crankcase and the cylinder at the back of the engine only (nothing showing at the front of the engine or on the crankcase covers) and on the left hand side - from there it spreads and blows around to look as if it is coming from elsewhere as well.

Technical problem!
 

I have studied the manual for this job while staring at the engine in order to spot any issues.

The one thing that has me beat at present is that I can see how to get spanners onto all of the external nuts/bolts while dismantling the engine but I can't see how to get my torque wrench back in there when re-assembling the engine. The torque wrench is bigger than the end of a spanner and there is very little clearance for the cylinder bolts on the right hand side and the cyl head bolts at the front and back of the engine. In the former case it is an issue of "headroom" clearance to the cylinder itself and for the latter, the bolts appear to be very tight up against the cylinder and for headroom.

Does anyone know of an alternative to the usual "click type" torque wrench or what other technique will get the bolts/nuts to the correct torque setting? (Does Yamaha have yet another special tool???!!).

Cheers,

Dave
ps The chain tensioner may have a similar issue with clearance for tightening it vis a vis the adjacent oil tank (but in the worst case the oil tank could be removed).

Newton/force gauge
 

In my previous life as an electro mechanical engineer, we had to set everything to various torques, stretch measurements etc. You need a newton gauge, it looks a bit like a fishermans scale, but graduated in newtons. Simple maths from the measured length of the spanner and careful tightening should enable you to get it right.

Force x lever arm
 

Hi Leigh,
That will be a spring balance then, along these lines:-

http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sear...ance&category0=


I see what you are saying; basically use the balance to apply the force x the lever arm of the spanner (at right angle) = torque.

Cheers,

Dave

Wow, posh
 

I never bother with the torque wrench on anything but the four cylinder head bolts.
And now did approx. 100.000 kms on the Tenere, after not bothering.
Just develop the feel for how tight the bolts and nuts should be.

Further, if you have a scale in kilogram, you can convert into Newton by multiplying with 10 (9,81 in fact, but don't worry about that). In the same way, 1 kgm = 10 Nm.

Auke

with a little help...2
 

high everybody, high Walkabout,
Yes you are entitled to jump on thid treat I did start, apparently I am the luck one...sorry to hear from your problems...
My friend TONY ( a thousand times thanks...) did finaly the job, he did replace the paper gasket from the side cover, he did it xhile I was not there, to surprise me, so I don't know in detail how...:innocent:
But off course I am very happy, there is no leak anymore...:mchappy:
Thanks Aukeboss, this is real value information, It is realy assuring for my trip, such info and right on line, fantastic (I start to appriciate the HUBB more and more):thumbup1:
One more question: Tofill up the oil
The manual says to fill
The oil tank (to frame) 2.8 L
The oil filter chamber 0.06 L

HOW TO FILL THE OIL FILTER CHAMBER?
(By the air bleed screw???? or....?)

So Walkabout, good luck and to everybody thanks for the imput,
See you on the....
Pol

I told you 2 weeks ago it would be the clutch cover gasket at fault!
Don't try filling the oil filter chamber. Slowly fill the oil tank with the right amount of oil. Put in approx 2/3 of the total amount, start the bike and loosen the small bolt on top of the oil filter housing. When oil comes out, stop the engine and gently tighten this bolt. slowly add the rest of the oil and go ride the bike for about 5 miles. Stop and check the oil level. All should then be well.

driving!
 

yes I am driving,:scooter: ... feeling very HAPPY....and ....feeling very confident for the Mongolia trip, Ill make some pictures of my prep, (double seat and ...more

Thanks again everybody
see you on the road....
Pol

Lucky sod!
 

Hi Pol,
How fortunate is that, to have someone sort out your oil leak for you? :thumbup1:

Anyway, I guess the answer to your original question in your thread (so thanks for letting me take it over now that you are back on the road) is, yes, gasket leaks need to be sorted out - I've just been reading on another thread about leaks around the oil filter cover on XTs, caused by stripped threads - I just hope that I am not going to find something similar when I get inside my engine (stripped threads that is!). So, I am going to do it myself and I have ordered a set of gaskets, genuine Yamaha stuff only, for everyone of them down to and including the one between the cylinder and the crankcases. Should be here within a few days and then the work starts.

Aukeboss,
I shall certainly be getting a feel for how tight the bolts should be, but if I can get them torqued to the recommended figures then so much the better - I may "experiment" as I take them off in the first place; numbers don't mean the same as the feel - 42Nm (4.2 m.Kg, 30 ft.lb) to quote the manual for the most awkward bolts - now what does that feel like? :innocent:


Dave

Suggestions please - 3AJ in a 5CH
 

Hi again,
No gasket set delivered yet, but I have started stripping down the engine, exhaust etc in readiness - as ever, once you start perceptions/ideas/plans change! I will get about tomorrow and buy a few extra tools that I need!

In the meantime, I can't get the valve cover off even though I reckon all of the bolts are out now - it seems to be well "glued" to the cylinder head by the gooy stuff that forms it's gasket.
Therefore, grateful for any recommendations - I will get a soft headed mallet tomorrow but is there any technique I am missing! Obviously I don't want to damage that casting - it looks expensive to replace. :rolleyes2:

While I'm typing, I also wonder about the decompression lever mechanism - that is still in place in the valve cover, basically because I have a 2004 manual which does not mention it (2004 = electric starter, not kickstart). So, do I need to dismantle that before the cover comes off?


This is a 3AJ engine in a 5CH TT600R, 2001 model, so there must be loads of people who know the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dave (not confused, yet, but slightly doubtful!) :innocent:

Cancel that last plea! There was still one bolt in there, right under & inline with the frame and a bitch to get to therefore - the valve cover comes off OK once that bolt is out! In fact, I was surprised at how little gooy stuff is in evidence on the mating surfaces (and that gooy "gasket" was not leaking).

Gasket set arrived today so it is all go now,

Dave

ps Not sure that the engine was at TDC when I started dismantling - does that matter at this stage?

the last bolt
 

He he he....

You are not alone to get frustrated with that bolt.specialy if you are working with the engine in the frame. I allways put cu-grease on it when refitting,makes it a lot easyer to get out the next time.


Tom.

Life with a 3AJ engine
 

Thanks for that Tom, you have obviously been there, done that! Slip grease will certainly be slopped on. (Yep, the engine is insitu in the frame).

But the real bitch bolt of today has been the "next one down" - the crown head nut at the front of the cyl head, right in amongst the cooling fins and pretty close to the frame and right on the centre line i.e. frame, again ( - why do they keep doing that??). It was touch and go about dropping out the engine, but the manual says it can be done but gives no clue about how - hand stands with a ring spanner jammed between the fins and moving alternately either side of the frame got it, just.
Now ready to lift out the cyl head, which is fully loosed off, and start on the next layer of bolts for the actual cyl (and the manual looks OK for this next stage, but then it looked OK for the others!!).

Aukeboss,
I am certainly getting a feeling for the bolt tensions and I can't see me getting a torque wrench onto many of them later on, just the obvious ones! - will be glad to just get them back in and tight(ish). You will see from here, that I forgot about your point for that single bolt in the valve cover - damn and drat.


Finally, not too sure yet about re-setting the timing; are there any "funnies" about this? Seems to me that the camshaft drive pinion can go back in one of two ways (with 2 bolts at 180 degrees to each other).

That will do for today!

Dave

Happens
 

to the best .. I also forgot the secret bolt once, that's why I remember so well :-).
Timing: yes, the gearwheel is not Murphy proof.
Crankshaft in TDC position, alinging with the marks on the casing. Camshaft in, lobes pointing down, chain on gearwheel, slack on the rearside where tensioner is. Then, the gearwheel to be fixed with the two stripes on it parallel to the valve cover mating surface, and the dot pointing upwards. Locktite the two bolts!

Do not damage your valve cover: if you do you'll also have to replace the cilinder head as they are a pair (the bearings for the camshaft drilled at once with head and cover mated).

Auke

Saturday night - plan A or plan B?
 

Well the cyl head is off and the carbs came off at the same time: I mention this because they have been an absolute pain up to now, jammed in against the frame at the back of the carbs (the manual says "remove the carbs" but it does not say how!). So, the 2 came off together now that there is a bit of room between them and the frame top spine member, but I can't see how they can come out otherwise, without my current dismantling of the engine - XT owners have said previously to move the airbox/partly dismantle the sub-frame but this does nothing about two largish cross members welded into the main frame which are right behind the carbs and more or less up against them when they are properly fitted. I would be interested in how other folk get the carbs off without taking the engine to bits (just in case they have to come out in the future!).

So, what did I find next but both of the internal cap bolts holding the cylinder to the crankcase, that are supposed to be torqued to 42Nm, were completely loose, i.e. they could be moved by finger pressure alone - I guess that is why the gasket has not been doing it's job!!
I now have all 6 cyl bolts/nuts dismantled but the cyl seems to be very tight on the piston (the rings presumably) when I try to lift it straight up and that makes me consider plan B.

Plan A is continue and change the cyl gasket. Plan B is leave the cyl and it's current gasket in place and tighten up the bolts/nuts correctly to the right torque values - basically stop now and start re-assembling, assuming that the cyl gasket is in good order and the whole problem has been the loose cyl cap bolts.

Opinions welcome please - I don't want to get all this way, put it back together and find oil still leaking (possible outcome of plan B if the gasket is knackered) but I am concerned about getting the cyl off the piston and getting it back on again over the 4 piston rings because it seems very tight to me (but I have never done this before so what do I know!!).

As I footnote, I have no idea any longer if the piston is at TDC on the compression stroke or at TDC on the exhaust stroke (I've turned it over a few times) - does that matter ultimately?

The weather forecast is good so I will probably have Sunday off this task and ride the wife's bike, so loads of time for your views to sink in!!

Thanks,

Dave

ps Aukeboss,
Thanks for your last posting - that basically ties in with my manual - one point is that I have looked closely at the cam gearwheel and it has the marks you mention but it has a choice of one "dot" at the top or three depending how it is bolted up; as you can tell I did not notice which way round it was when I took it off (and it does not look very much like the one in the pics in my manual, so it is a choice of two positions as of today).

Thanks also for the info about the paired castings - I wondered why there are no removeable bearings for the camshaft!!

Go on
 

while you are there. No guarantee that the gasket and the large O/ring have not been damaged, and since you have the parts seems better to go full Monty.

With the head removed, TDC end of compression or end of exhaust is not defined, it is your own choice, so do not worry about that.

Do not really understand your description of the gearwheel, can you send a picture, so we can see?

Removing carbs: a b*tch indeed. The connections to the carb rubbers must push the flexible cilinder head comnnections a bit inward, then the connections to the airbox ducts can just pass the frame. But I agree, it must be your day :-)

Auke

I have a pic but
 

Hi again Aukeboss,

First thing is my mate came around late last night and with two pairs of hands (+ a couple of beers), one each side, to lift it straight up, the cyl came off - it was dragging on the bolts/studs rather than the piston rings it turned out. As a point, the existing gasket and O ring look OK, but they will be changed anyway, of course, now I have got there!
So it is a case of back to plan A, the full monty.

I have a pic of the camshaft gearwheel but it is about 56 Kb, as "chosen" by the camera, which is too big to post on here and I have no idea how to make it smaller. What I was trying to describe is that there are 3 "dots" marked in the gearwheel next to one of the fixing bolts and there is just one of the same type of "dot" next to the other fixing bolt - because there are only two fixing bolts then there are just 2 ways of fixing the gearwheel to the camshaft, so which way round does it go?
Put another way, with the timing marks on that gearwheel set horizontal/flush with the cyl head top surface, I have a choice of 3 dots to the top or 1 dot to the top - does it matter which way this is done, so long as the timing marks are alined?
The gearwheel "detail" markings described above are a bit different from the ones shown in my manual on cd but that manual is for a 2004 TT600RE so that may not mean much; the timing marks are clear enough however.

I take your point about now that the head is off the piston position is not relevant (i.e. it is all about getting the timing marks at the top and those on the crankshaft in alignment).


That's where I am right now; one general question is - is it a good idea to copper slip all of the fixings for the cylinder, cylinder head and rocker cover or only certain ones? The reason I ask is that the grease will affect the torques that are recommended for the various fixings and I assume that the values in the manual are based on "dry" bolt/nuts/studs (I don't want those 42 kNm cap bolts to come loose again!!!).
My last question for tonight is: I have just realised that the first gasket to be fitted between the crankcase and the cyl can go in either way up; it does not have a unique way of going in like the next one for the cyl head - the manual says fit it as per the illustration but that picture is not very good or clear about which way round the gasket is. So, which way is up for this gasket? (The difference appears to be a few (3 actually) little protrusions on the gasket that stick out a bit when it is bolted up - the choice is one to the front with two to the back, or vice versa.

Apologies for the long posting!!

Cheers,

Dave

Owwwww
 

I have a pic of the camshaft gearwheel but it is about 56 Kb, as "chosen" by the camera, which is too big to post on here and I have no idea how to make it smaller. What I was trying to describe is that there are 3 "dots" marked in the gearwheel next to one of the fixing bolts and there is just one of the same type of "dot" next to the other fixing bolt - because there are only two fixing bolts then there are just 2 ways of fixing the gearwheel to the camshaft, so which way round does it go?
** No matter. As long as, with the piston in TDC, the gearwheel fixed to the camshaft, the cam lobes point downwards and the two stripes on the wheel align with the mating surface of the valve cover. Or don´t you have the two stripes?

Put another way, with the timing marks on that gearwheel set horizontal/flush with the cyl head top surface, I have a choice of 3 dots to the top or 1 dot to the top - does it matter which way this is done, so long as the timing marks are alined?
** No.

The gearwheel "detail" markings described above are a bit different from the ones shown in my manual on cd but that manual is for a 2004 TT600RE so that may not mean much; the timing marks are clear enough however.

I take your point about now that the head is off the piston position is not relevant (i.e. it is all about getting the timing marks at the top and those on the crankshaft in alignment).


That's where I am right now; one general question is - is it a good idea to copper slip all of the fixings for the cylinder, cylinder head and rocker cover or only certain ones? The reason I ask is that the grease will affect the torques that are recommended for the various fixings and I assume that the values in the manual are based on "dry" bolt/nuts/studs (I don't want those 42 kNm cap bolts to come loose again!!!).
** I never bother. That's no answer I know. You'lll probably be a bit more accurate with the coppaslip.

My last question for tonight is: I have just realised that the first gasket to be fitted between the crankcase and the cyl can go in either way up; it does not have a unique way of going in like the next one for the cyl head - the manual says fit it as per the illustration but that picture is not very good or clear about which way round the gasket is. So, which way is up for this gasket? (The difference appears to be a few (3 actually) little protrusions on the gasket that stick out a bit when it is bolted up - the choice is one to the front with two to the back, or vice versa.
Install it so that all the holes line up with the items that they should line up with (yes, difficult to explain). You'll find that the rearmost bolthole for the allen bolt on the chain tunnel will only line up in one position.

Do not forget the big O-ring at the foot of the cilinder!

Auke

Just 2 more questions!!
 

Hi Auke,
Many thanks once again for the advice! I will have another look at that bottom gasket - I am pretty sure that it can be inserted either way up, unlike the next one up which is definitely not symmetrical. I will make sure that all the pins, oilways etc are not blocked by the gasket.

The gearwheel clearly has the marks for horizontal alignment with the cyl head so no problems there - I've even read your earlier posts in other threads about these marks may be slightly out depending on wear of the timing chain.

Do you use the gooy stuff with these gaskets? (I will be using Solvol Blue instant gasket for replacing the rocker cover) - the guy who supplied them said not, but it is obvious on the various mating surfaces on this bike that some sort of "black stuff" has been used on all of the mating surfaces; I am sure of this because it is taking ages to get it all off without scratching those surfaces.

The timing: everything is clear to me except - Do I have to take off the left hand crankcase cover to align the various marks at the bottom end? My manual is for a complete strip and assemble so the pics have the cover off anyway - of course mine is not off (not yet anyway!!). I have seen the smallish screw and plastic crank cover that are in the left cover but I have not investigated them as yet. All this follows on from your point of two days ago -- "Crankshaft in TDC position, alinging with the marks on the casing".

Cheers,

Dave

I havnt read all the posts but ill put my say in.

If your replacing head and/or base gaskets, they will only go one way so you cant get it wrong. DO NOT use goo or gasket paste here. It simply is not nessessary and leads to problems.

Ensure the mating surfaces are immaculately clean and all the old gasket is removed. It can be a pain so use a blunt razor blade to remove any baked on old gasket. BE VERY CAREFUL not to nick or put notches in the mating surfaces.

For the rocker cover, you can use expensive yam bond or any other high temp gasket sealant. Its not under high pressure and a cheaper gasket paste will surfice.

For alternator and clutch covers, use the Yamaha paper gaskets. Again, no goo or paste is required.

To set the timing, remove the 2 caps from the left hand side alternator cover. Rotate the alternator with a socket until the timing mark is at TDC.

TDC on the rotor can either mean the piston is at TDC or BDC. You need to ensure the piston is at the TOP of the barrel. Put a long screw driver etc down the spark plug hole to feel where the piston is.

When you are sure the rotor and piston are in TDC position, line up the cam shaft so all the valves are closed and put the camshaft gear on with the two timing lines horizontal to the head.

Cam chain tensioner goes in last. Once you install the tensioner, make sure all the lines mark up again.

Turn over the engine by hand a few times to make sure all is well..

P.S Buy a QUALITY torque wrench and use it !!!!

If you need anymore help im happy for you to PM me. Im a qualified Motorcycle Mechanic !

Questions and answers
 

Ted,
Thanks for that, all very useful, it answers my latest questions, and I do have a brand new torque wrench. Thanks also for the PM offer; I will bear it in mind if things go off the rails.

Auke,
Have just checked the gasket, as Ted says, it does indeed fit only one way i.e. it is not symmetrical - my error!!

No more questions, for today at least, :thumbup1: so I must be getting there!! Will now get on with finishing off the cleaning of the mating surfaces.

Cheers,

Dave

Goo and timing
 

For the fluid gasket use black non-hardening stuff from Locktite or Wurtz. Apply thinly and evenly.

Timing, no need to take off the LH cover. There's the small inspection hole at approx. 10.30 (I mean North West) from the big crankshaft 'inspection hole'. On th flywheel there's the mark 'T' which coincides with TDC.

Auke

Looking good!
 

Thanks Auke,
Too late about the black stuff, I have blue instant gasket made by Solvol (also called Hymolar) which was sold to me with the gasket set. I am told that the very expensive Yam bond (1415 or something like that number) is no longer available and the blue is just as good - as per a previous post, it won't be used in a high oil pressure area.

Tonighy I've just got the timing set (and to my amateur eye it all looks OK as per all the earlier advice and the detail in my manual) and the rocker cover is now immaculate and ready to go on tomorrow. :thumbup1:

So far, so good,

Dave

gasket leaking from the LEFT side of the crackcase cover?
 

Hi,

I have a1983 XT Tenere (yes the very first one) and I am not sure if the leak comes from the cylinder gasket or the left side cover cover crakase.

I m looking for a helpfull mecanics in Melbourne australia.. if you have tips, let me know!

Thanks

Nearly there and now I have a problem!
 

On the last lap: I am trying to fit the 2 triangular plates that join the rocker cover to the frame above it - there are 2 bolts on the frame with one through the top of the rocker cover, but they don't line up.
I can get all 3 bolts through one of the plates and then the two on the frame into the second plate; at this point the bottom of the second plate is mis-aligned with it's bolt by about 1/2 of the bolt thickness.

I remember that these bolts were very tight (not just the nuts which have quite a high torque value anyway) when I removed them; it is as if the engine has moved a bit when they were released!!! :nono:

So, has anyone got any suggestions while I tear my hair out?!! :helpsmilie:

Ta,

Dave

Yep
 

The engine is part of the frame structure. So, if you remove the bolts and lean a bit on the bike the whole thing sags a bit. You´ll notice that when you lift the engine a bit, suddenly the holes align. Insert bolts and proceed as planned...

With the bolts removed, all stress is on the spine of the frame, the large tube over the engine. Step back, look, and you´ll see what I mean.

Auke

jack
 

Hi.

If I fit the engine alone I usualy have it sitting on a pice of 6" board suported by a regular carjack.Once the swing arm bolt is in it´s really easy to "fine tune" the engine position with the jack. and it takes the preassure of the bikeframe.

Tom.

Not bolted up yet!
 

Auke/Tom/Ted (via PM),
Thanks for all the replies - gives one hope!
Since my last post, I have tried slacking off the two bolts at the front lower that tie the engine to the frame at the front; unfortunately there is no obvious play in there (those bolts pass through both the frame and the engine without any backets to provide some "play") - I have not tried slacking off at the back because if I understand this right, the engine will pivot on that bolt along with the swingarm (and it will be released all together and end up dropping out?!)
There is no point in trying the triangular plates in any other way - the bolt spacings across the frame are slightly different to the spacings from those bolts to the one in the rocker cover.

I don't have a decent car jack, trolley or otherwise, so I will look into that, borrow one or whatever - is there any alternative? I have tried levering a long-handled screwdriver against the frame and passed through the hole in the middle of the triangular plate so that the plate is pulled downward- this gets the bolt nearly in line, but not quite, by using up the small amount of play in the 2 bolts that go through the frame.


As a completely separate thing, I am not sure that the kickstart is quite as free as it used to be - it does not seem to move through the full range of movement to the bottom of its stroke - is this possible, or am I now paranoid?!!


What do you all think?

Dave

Another thought, so another question (alt to a jack)............
 

.........about lifting the bike (which is around 140 Kg supposedly) - has anyone used a motocross type platform - the sort that gets both wheels off the ground for maintenance - if not, then what do you think? - if it can lift the whole bike for maintenance then it could lift the engine when that is not bolted tight to the frame???

Dave (brainstorming night!)

I use a motocross lift for my TTR's, not ideal as the bike is a bit heavier than an MX bike, but works OK. Not too stable though, one fell of when I was working on it, just missed me and the footpeg landed on a brand new can of chain lube-covering me and the bike!

Do not
 

make it more complicated than necessary.
There are two bolts on the back of the engine, the swingarm pivot and one below that. So, if you remove all bolts front down and the ones on top of the head, you can use the flexibility of the frame to get all bolts in. Jack is helpful, but not really necessary.
I recommend: loosen up all bolts front down, then use the flexibility of the frame upper member to get the bolts at the top in. If that does not give enough play, also loosen up the two two at the back.

Auke

Thanks again guys,
I have not seen the "extra" bolt at the lower rear (I haven't needed to look underneath and that far back up to now!!) - I thought the engine is on the same bolt as the swinging arm and I did not want to work on that so that the engine stays in place basically i.e. does not come out completely.

Anyway, I will take another look at this advice, but I am not sure how the engine can come back into line (for Auke) without some form of lifting/propping up, now that it is a bit lower - can't see from your description how that will happen, Auke, because the frame upper member looks as if it is very rigid, in itself that is. There are 4 bolts at the front, 2 holding the engine to the "stay at the front lower" (the ones that I have already slackened off) and two more holding this stay to the spine frame - I take it that these latter two should be slackened as well to give more play overall?

I have taken a look at the bit of the manual that deals with the chassis and I see that it refers to "place a suitable support under the engine" in order to work on the swinging arm, so it looks like a car type of jack or the motocross stand is pretty essential for potential future work - haven't got yet however. :rolleyes2:

Leigh,
That must have been a pain, literally and figuratively!!


Cheers,

Dave

ps Still not convinced that the bike is kicking over as "freely" as it used to before I started on this work; I don't think the travel on the kickstart is as great a range as previously - any suggestions on this? I am thinking of taking the rocker cover off again and checking the timing. Do the valves need to be adjusted after the type of work I have done? - not done up to now or checked (as I don't have the Yam special tool for the tiny adjuster at the top of the valves!!!)

Found a mistake!!
 

Me again,
Just been reading the section of the manual that deals with all adjustments (the bit I thought I knew inside out). For setting the valve clearances it shows the fixed mark in the little window on the left crankcase cover aligned with a single mark on the flywheel.

When I set up the timing, I aligned the fixed mark with a DIFFERENT mark on the flywheel - the one that is shown in the manual for the ignition timing strobe lamp testing (it looks like a letter H , which is what I thought it was, more or less - a letter T (for top!!) written sidewards against the mark itself, if you see what I mean).

Anyway, the point is that the timing would be out by some amount - is this enough to cause the kickstart not to operate easily through its complete stroke?


Bear with me on this! :funmeterno:

Dave

Aaaah
 

When all bolts are loose, just sit on the bikle and you´ll see how flexible the spine tube actually is. You could with one hand list teh engine a bit while using the other to put the bolts in. Alt: prop something under the engine and do the same.

Timing: should be at the T mark, so correct that.
Don't know that this can f*ck up the kicking, but it;s not that important now. First get things running, and then start worrying about perfect kickstarting.

Auke

Here's the latest
 

Hi again Auke,
I 've just got the rocker cover off again and am about to check the timing, so I really need to get the right mark - At the crank I now have it lined up on the single mark that I described earlier (but I have not changed the camshaft alignment, yet!) and it makes a difference of about 10-15 degrees in the angle of the two timing marks on the camshaft gearwheel to the cyl head - looking at the cam lobes, that would make quite a difference to when the valves open and close.
AND the bike kicks over very freely now that the rocker cover is off and the spark plug is out; it was "jamming" earlier at about the 2/3 point in the full range of the kickstart movement and it was very difficult to get it to go past this point and on toward the footpeg; in fact most of the time, it would not go past that 2/3 point - bearing in mind all of the earlier advice about the engine must turn over freely by hand before attempting to start it, I am concerned to get this right this time. :rolleyes2: The way it has been this past day or so, it would not start anyway on the kickstart because there simply was not enough travel in the kick action (& I believe that the decompression lever was set up OK).

Back to the T mark for a moment: are there any more marks on that flywheel that I should be able to see (covered in oil, they are not easy to see anyway)? I ask because my manual is a bit confusing in the section for re-assembling the engine; it talks about (and shows a view of) aligning marks on the crankcase with the camchain driving gearwheel at the bottom of the engine i.e. with the crankcase lefthand cover off.
As I said in my previous post, the "implication" of the adjustment section of the manual is that the single mark on the flywheel is relevant for the valves with the H type mark used for a strobe light. It even shows the H mark just to the left of the single mark i.e. the 10 degrees or so mentioned above.

Apart from that, I have been experimenting with a timber ladder put under the bike and using that as a lever to lift the engine toward the upper frame - I reckon that will work when I eventually get back to that stage!!

Summary: my main concern at present is to get the timing right AND that the bike turns over freely when the engine is back together.

Apologies to one and all for such long postings!!:nono: but I have not done this before!!!!!

Not able to progress this tomorrow (another day off!) so loads of time to keep me on the straight and narrow path. :helpsmilie:

Dave

Well
 

Marks: my bikes have a T mark, if yours does not, you can find the correct one by sticking a long screw driver into the spark plug hole, rotating the crankshaft and feeling TDC. There MUST be a mark, marked T or anything else indicating the TDC. Alternatively, remove your LH cover, then it will be easier to find the correct mark. yes, I know it's more work, but might save a lot of sh*t later.

To find the cause of the difficult kickstarting, suggest as follows:
1. With plug removed and camshaft not installed, try turning -> OK, proceed to 2
2. Install camshaft and valve cover, no plug, crank engine, if OK, proceed to 3.
3. Install plug. Adjust deco mechanism: the lever on the head must have 1 mm of play, with the piston at TDC, valves closed. Make sure taht the deco mechanism indeed works. You see the lever at the head moving when you kickstart? OK -> OK

Auke

Just for clarity, the marks look something like this on my TT600R flywheel (I guess the XT is different):-

H l

They are quite close together.
According to the manual, the one on the left is to be used for a strobe light as I described before (and, in detail, it looks a bit like a T written sidewards, underlined with a vertical mark). That is the one I used a few days ago to set the camchain.

The one on the right is for the valve timing according to the adjustment section of my manual AND in there it calls this mark the "T" position; combined with the re-assembly of the engine bit of the manual that has the crankcover references, the manual is a bit ambiguous and can be read in different ways, which is pretty much what I have done up to now.

Anyone else with a TT600 can confirm that I should use the righthand mark of these two choices?

Thanks Auke,
Taking off the LHS cover is an option but it would be quicker and easier to set the timing to the new mark and see what difference that makes. I take your point about doing it in stages; ; last time I put the spark plug in "early" while it was easier, so I don't know what difference that made last time around.

Cheers,

Dave

Well
 

The engine runs counterclockwise seen from the LH side, so it´s logical that first the ignition timing mark(s) pass(es) the ´window´, and then the valve timing mark. I cannot physically check, but think there are two ignition marks: idle and high speed.
I checked a manual for a TT600RE, and this one also speaks of a T mark. Could be that your valve timing mark has not been indicated by the T.

The way to check is to insert the screwdriver into the plug hole, the mark that best corresponds to TDC is the valve timing mark.

Auke

Weird
 

Hi again,
I got in a few minutes on the bike tonight and........

I set the timing anew (with the right hand mark) by removing the timing chain tensioner, lifting the chain and moving the gearwheel around so that the timing marks are all correctly aligned (screwdriver indicates TDC as well) and then replacing the tensioner. So far, so good.

Then I tried turning the engine over by hand with the kickstart (which moves freely through its full range now) to check that the engine is freely turning with the rocker cover removed. I noticed that turning the kickstart did not always turn the camshaft which would mean that the timing was "dis-connected" from the engine rotations. i.e. the first time this happened the timing would definitely be out of sync.
I then tried turning the crank with a wrench at the opening in the left hand crankcase cover. Again I noticed that rotating the crankshaft in either direction did not rotate the camshaft, ever. In other words the two are able to move independantly of each other!! :rolleyes2:

This tells me that the timing chain is not mounted on the driving gear at the bottom OR what else? I can't think of anything else!

While I dismantled the engine I did wonder now and again what system there is to keep the timing chain correctly aligned at the bottom while it is very loose at the top (the manual simply says to tie it out of the way and not to let it drop back into the engine - there is nothing to say that the chain must be kept taut, and it wasn't).

What views on this please? :helpsmilie:

Dave

ps the timing chain appears to be tight enough on the top gearwheel - no chance of "slipping" for instance.

another one here..
 

hello. just been through all this with my 1vj tenere (same leak, same place), and today we came to start it. after a few gentle kicks the kickstart is fairly jammed but you can still turn the crank with the rotor bolt on the left hand side (as used to check the timing). although when you do turn it it moves with a juddering and a whiring kind of noise like if you turn it backwards by mistake. obviously im going to check the timing again tomorrow, but during re-assembly it was turning really sweatly and it was fine whilst i was checking the valves etc, so it has been turned over several times by hand. could this be a completely seperate thing or more likely the timing? im convinced i set it all right and the fact that its been turned over a bit prior is confusing me!


sorry to butt in at this late stage, but its a similar thing so i thought it best not to start a new thread.

any help appreciated.

P.s. i used the timing mark with a T next to it to determine the tdc. was this the right choice? its what i always use for the valve clearences.

p.p.s. when i took the engine appart i removed all the bolts bar the swing arm and the engine tilted forwards to give clearance, i dont know if this is what youre supposed to do for the ttr?

all fingers crossed !!

karl.

Hi Karl,
Welcome to the "bust bike" club! I hope the shed load of stuff that has been coming up on here has been of some use to you up to now - if you read my latest post (next to yours in timing) you will see that I have gone backwards tonight.

I am no expert you can tell, but what you describe sounds very, very much like what I am finding!!!!:rolleyes2:

Thanks for the thoughts about the engine bolts issue: if you only have that one bolt at the swing arm, what stops the whole engine rotating forward too far, unless you kept that one bolt fully tightened up? (I guess that is what you did).

Cheers,

Dave

Timing chain
 

I had a similar problem with keeping the chain on the crank on an FZR recently (same ohc principle). I found the best way was to hold the chain between your fingers while turning the crank from the crankcase, try to increase and decrease the taughtness of the chain until it engages with the crank. Once it has, keep the same chain taughtness and turn the crank several times to ensure it is properly located on the gear. Try to keep the chain nice and taught when fitting the cam. Hope that helps.

Ta very much
 

Many thanks Alflow,
That certainly makes sense and is better than my manual, which says nothing useful on this (I've just re-read everything to do with the timing chain).
It's nice to hear that it can be done without stripping the engine again!!

Dave

regarding the bolt on the swing arm. on my 1vj tenere, i remooved all the other engine bolts then the engine tilts forward on this last bolt and rests on the front frame down tube, giving you a touch more clearance above the head.

dont you just hate garages with no lights - ive got to worry till the morning now!!! lets hope tomorrow is full of (pleasant) surprises...

just pulled the engine apart and the timing is all ok. what im feeling when turning the engine over at the crank is the starter motor turning, it doesnt dissengege with the engine. ive no picis in the clymer manual, does anyone know where/how the starter dissengages? ill post this as a seperate thread as well as ive changed the subject...

This thread is overly complicated now, i cant make head or tail of whats going on.

Thread hijacking is naughty :rolleyes2: Too many people on one thread. Maybe new threads should be started ??

Walkabout: You say your camshaft isnt turning when you turn the crank by hand ?

You have probably let the chain slip off the lower gear. Do not try and kick the bike again. I just hope you havnt jammed the chain in the gear or it will shear off the teeth requiring a new crank :(

You need to grab hold on the cam chain and make sure it doesnt spin on the crank.

Been fishing
 

Well, I have the timing cam in bits again and the timing chain is definitely not aligned with its driving sprocket at the bottom.
I 've been "fishing" around to try to get the timing chain back onto the driving sprocket at the bottom. Looking down the timing chain tunnel with a bright light it is clearly off the sprocket at the front and loose there, but it is a bit tight at the back - could be jammed between the rear chain guide and whatever.

I will carry on doing a bit more "fishing" but it is possible that this is not going to work out. As Auke says, the next thing will be to take off the left hand crank cover, although I have considered stripping down the engine again to get at the timing chain from above (any comments on that approach??!!) :rolleyes2:

Some questions arise:

1. It is not clear to me what is behind the left hand cover - as ever the manual is a tad vague - will I get directly to the timing chain and its driving sprocket once the cover is off or are there any other things in there to be removed once the cover is off?

2. Do I have to drain the oil to take off the left crankcase cover? (there is an oil pipe from the tank at the top rear of the cover and it is a bit flexible with an amount of flexy hose back to the oil storage tank (so it looks like it can "stretch" a bit)

Bear with me, I've not done this before either!!

While fishing, as described above, the timing chain looks OK and I have turned the crank with the wrench and the sprocket does not appear to be damaged - no teeth missing etc etc. ( it is easily seen with said bright light, just not so easy to reach out and touch!!)

Dave

ps I would really like to get this bike back on the road before the summer is over!:censored:

Probably should have added...........
 

............. to my last post, that there is nothing wrong with the timing chain either, not obviously anyway - it turns quite easily over its full length(feeding it through my fingers as the crank is not turning it) so I have looked at all of it and there are no teeth missing, broken or showing any other form of damage - it just will not move across onto the driving sprocket at the back - near the guide in fact. I've tried to use a long-handled screwdriver to move it over but that has not worked.


So, what is behind that left hand cover???

Dave

Under the left cover is the alternator / generator / rotor or whatever you want to call it.

Its a bloody nightmare to remove but i think (if i can remember correctly) that the chain gear is behind the rotor.

Take the cover off, its a simple and yes, you need to drain the oil as its wet in there.

With just the cover off you might be able to get the chain back on without removing the rotor.

If you have to get the rotor off then then you need a special tool which is £180 from yamaha or you can make one yourself.

I hope you dont need to remove the rotor, its a BITCH job without the yamaha tool.

Progress.......
 

.....yes, there is progress!

With the left crankcase cover off it is possible to get the timing chain back onto its driving sprocket, so it is done - it is not very accessible behind the genny, but with a bit of manouvering with finger ends the chain is shifted across and the driven camshaft gearwheel at the top is also back in place while that side cover is off - the timing marks referenced in my manual (for a complete engine build from nothing) are not visible (they are hidden by the genny rotor) so I thought, at first, that I could not do the timing with the crank cover off - however, remembering that the little "window" is approximately around "north west" as Auke called it, there is only one place for the marks on the flywheel when the crank is at TDC - that's what I reckon anyway - I will be able to check this when I have that cover back in place; at worst it should need only small adjustment and no major further work.

Currently back into cleaning up mating surfaces for the replacement crank cover gasket. Damn, am I getting good at that job!!

There was nothing obviously stopping the timing chain from slipping back over its bottom sprocket - the chain guides do not touch the chain in any obvious manner - it was just a case of pushing against it with the finger ends and rotating the crank nut to take up the slack and getting the tension onto the chain.

Thanks Ted for that last information - gave me a start point for exploring the innards of that sidecover.

So, there you go, maybe I will get to ride the bitch this summer!!!!!!:clap:


Dave

Good news, bad news
 

Isn't life always a case of good news, bad news!



Well the bike is all back together, even those engine support bolts are back in, thanks to the ladder jammed underneath and used as a lever to lift the engine a tad, AND it is kicking over very smoothly indeed.


The bad news is I don't have a spark!!! :confused1:
The last thing I did about 10 days ago, before I starting stripping down the mechanical bits, was start the damn thing - call it superstition or whatever, but it seemed like a good thing, just to let me know that she still wanted to go. Since then I have done only mechanical work; haven't touched the electrics at all (and when I kick it over the lights work OK, obviously if I choose to switch them on!).

So, it is a case of looking for the electrical problem next (de javu for me) - any thoughts???!!!!! :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:

Dave

You'l of unplugged something and forgotten or losening an earth etc.

Start a new thread..

"Iv got no spark"

By the way, I hope you threadlocked the camshaft sprocket bolts otherwise they will shake lose.

Seen it happen WAY too many times.

Loctite used
 

Yep, I got the loctite on them - they were a pain to get off after the first fixing so that stuff certainly works OK.


For the electrics, been there done that already:-

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...starting-26306

But this time around, nothing has changed since the bike was running - will be starting from scratch on the electrics then. :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:

Dave

End of the line
 

I don't like threads that have no ending - should finish with the complete story, don't you think.

So, the bitch (as this bike has been known in the past two weeks) is now the beast again, with a good spark and petrol = the required controlled explosion. :clap: :D



For the electrical problem, the solution is here:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...e-has-no-27603

You were not far away Ted, lots of pulling and tugging at the spark plug cable does loosen things a bit! - it's the same old principle; what did you fiddle with or adjust or take off last.

Here endeth this thread, :cool4: (unless you want it back Pol??!)


Dave

thanks, you're too kind
 

No thanks Dave, I don't need it back:cool4:
happy to hear your getting done with the whole buisness, congrat

I am leaving on the 6 July:scooter: , for Mongolia, fever is raising...
meet you on the road some....
Pol