No start 89 XT600 kick start only
 

Hello
previously had a no spark (thanks forum) and have progressed to a no start doh.
I have not had this bike running. Motor comes from a 89 kick stark. Motor has a newish piston and top end. (previous owner claims very low hours put on since rebuild}.
Bike was stripped down and combined with my old 85 xt600 to get one solid bike.
Ok I can't get it started and its a beast to kick over.
I have not done a compression test yet but based on the receipts, old piston and the kick start resistance I believe the compression should be good for it to start and break my leg.
I have spark
carb is getting fuel at least to float bowl
carb has been cleaned with new o rings and gaskets. A/F is at 2 turns out
kicked for awhile with choke out no throttle -nothing
air filter removed short spray starter fluid- nothing
kicked a bunch more- nothing
rolled down steep hill a bunch of times - one or twice it tried to turn over it seemed. lights brightened looked promising but nothing more. Got fed up and went home.

Plug was dry. (pulled before the hill jump)
Plug is new and gapped
I had the air filter out. (maybe too lean to start?)
no backfire no popping
no gas smell
kill switch on run
feels like its not getting fuel but I was hoping the stater fluid would of at least kick something over.

Advice please
Greg

try to put a squirt of gas directly into the cylinder through the spark plug hole. I always mix some 2 cycle oil(40:1 ratio) in this gas to give some lube to the cylinder. Maybe 1 teaspoon of gas/oil mix at a time. If the spark is right it should start a bit. That will tell you if it's carb or cylinder issue. Also turn the idle screw clockwise(raise idle) about a 1/3 to 1/2 turn. You can readjust later once bike is running.

For my bike starting I need to, keep the ignition off, full choke, no throttle , kick it over three or four times( not hard just steady to draw fuel). The return kicker to the top, turn ignition on and one almighty kick. If no start, return kick lever to top and repeat hard kick till it starts.I can never give it any throttle while starting.

Thanks for advice, but still nothing
What I have done is poured in a little gas straight to cylinder.
Have sprayed started into carb inlet
I have a spark tester hooked up for testing not for starting attempts. It shows spark, how much i'm not sure but its there and even on an easy kick.
I have never had this motor running as it is new to bike. I know it has a newish wiseco 4797m09700 piston in there. I don't know if this is making it so hard to kick as I don't remember my 85 xt this hard. I can just stand up on it.
I know i might not have the sequence right yet for the decompression release but this is nuts how hard it is to turn over.
I will pull carb again and give a look, it was thoroughly cleaned with new o rings and gasket.
I have gas in the float bowls.
will check float height again
I have another ignition coil I can try as well
When I take spark plug out after trying to start it has a faint gas smell
So many hours in her all ready :ban:
Greg

Put a couple good squirts of motor oil down the spark plug hole and kick it over slowly a couple times to make sure the cylinder walls are good and coated, then just squirt of gas, put plug back in, slowly push the kick lever down till it hits "the wall". push just hard enough till it passes that spot, get past it barely. Release the lever to allow it to return fully. Now kick it like your trying to shove the lever 2 feet into the ground. If no fire then you have something other than fuel issues. It may not completey start but it should fire and sputter for a bit. And remember, no throttle whatsoever when doing this. After this you may try repeating this whole setup only give it 1/16 of a turn of throttle, just to try.

I will never use starting fluid on gas motors !

I kind of suspect it is cdi . Try tapping it several times with a screwdriver handle.

I checked the ignition coil for power. Now i'm confused. Battery is at 11.7 volts. multimeter with black lead to batt neg, red lead to coil (orange) from CDI side I get no power.
Now with red lead to coil and black lead to batt POSITIVE i get 11.7 volts.
So i shut ignition off and I get 11.7volts as i am making a circuit?
So switch black lead to ignition coil (orange) CDI side, red lead to batt neg and -11.7volts.

Confused, shouldn't i get black lead to batt neg and red lead to coil for power? and wouldn't it be slightly less then just checking battery?

But I am getting spark

I have another cdi and coil. i'll swap each out on their own. Both were from my old running 85 xt but that was now about a dozen years ago.

Plug is new
gas is fresh

THANKS for the advice and help

You can charge battery or buy a new if its not taking charge, 11,7 is to low.

Useful thread in here
 

Yes, your batt should be around 13+ Volts.

There's a useful flow chart for fault finding in this thread, at post number 8:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-battery-71772

Clean connectors in the loom, a good battery and the like are pre-requisites for fault finding.

Battery was around 12.5v when trying to start. When it was at 11.7v it was starting to wear down after starting.
Would the kick start model need a strong battery?
I was curious to having power at ignition coil with ignition off. I thought power traveled to CDI after ignition.
Want to make sure that isn't an issue.
Battery is currently on a charge.

Since you are dealing with an 80's bike with a CDI, Battery is is NOT used to power the CDI. It is powered by the stator. I really suspect your CDI module is dead. I had two of them bad, one in an 84 that has been sitting since early 90's and my 86 that ran poorly and started very hard a year ago. After sitting for a year, the CDI died. I used my multimeter and verify the OHM readings of the Stator, Trigger coils etc. I then put the multimeter on AC volts and using the schematic connected to each stator and trigger coil output. I removed the spark plug to make kicking easier then kicked while watching the volt meter. I got upswing on each so I figured the stator was outputting. I also checked the 84 and got almost identical OHM reading an same upswing on voltmeter. I then ordered replacement CDI module, plugged it in and fat blue spark appeared on plug. Runs perfectly and starts easily now.

I highly recommend you DO NOT buy a used CDI on Ebay. They are going to be bad or die shortly due to age.

Watch this space later today. I have a new programmable CDI to test. I am currently running a Hyperpak from New Zealand. No complaints except long delays in getting it. The New programable PCDI-XT from Zeeltronics.com will ship fast, you can set an RPM limit if desired, it comes preprogrammed for plug and play. You have the ability to set the advance curve anywhere you want, but stay close to the stock settings. An anti-kickback feature was included and is accomplished by setting a minimum RPM setting for starting. Default is 250 RPM. Below this, NO SPARK, no kickback. This is adjustable but 250 is a pretty good place to leave it from the makers testing on his own XT550. This replacement CDI is only for the earlier XT's that have the wires coming out of the CDI module. Newer TCI modules have built-in plugs and will not use this model. Current price without programmer or USB cable is 150 Euro's and comes from Slovenia. Borut ships quickly and by AIR.

Extra feature included but probably not needed for the XT is a shift light output that can drive a bulb or bright LED directly and an Electronic Tach drive, should drive a Vapor tach directly. I will be looking at that myself.

Steve

thanks for replies

Clymer states that the CDI can be tested by yamaha. Can someone confirm this please.

where i'm at
i have basicly the same readings from both coils, as long as I use the same plug boot.
Ignition coil
1985 primary .9 1989 .8 ohm Clymer spec: 0.27-0.33 ohm
1985 secondary 15.44 1989 18.1ohm Clymer spec: 3.44- 5.16 ohms

Source coil: 238 ohm Clymer spec: 160- 240 ohm

pick up coil: (measured 2 eyes together of connector with mouth on bottom) had 229 Ohms Clymer spec: 90-129 ohms
Measured eyes to mouth had 114 ohms
> confused on this as bike's wires were changed it seems from stator out with different colored wires. I originally thought I was safe with 114 when I measured eyes to mouth but seems I might of done it wrong.
Clymer spec: 90-129 ohms

If I connect multimeter to brown and red wires out of stator and kick bike over with meter on ac volts, I get 65 volts max.

I have a VERY weak spark. I have an auto test light hooked up and I have spark. How strong I can't tell but if I pull plug and ground to head their is no spark.

I get the same results with either CDI and ignition coil. switched up back and forth etc.
Kill switch is disconnected as is Neutral switch and kick stand is jumped.

Hello
I searched for spec on the CDI, came up with different test results.
If I follow this my results seem to be with in spec or very close to it.

Models with CDI
Ignition coil (Primairy winding resistance) ground - orange
0,8 ohm (90mH)
Ignition coil (Secondary) Orange - spark plug
17 kohm
Charge coil resistance (HV) Red - brown
200 ohm or 122ohm +/-10 ohm
batterie charging coil (LV) white - white 0,23-0,38 ohm
Pulser coil resistance green - white/red 90-130 ohm
green - white/green 90-130 ohm
white/red - white/green 180-260 ohm

You found out as I did that the Clymer manual is WRONG. The Yamaha factory manual is correct. The Clymer did not tell you which is the correct wires to measure. Your second post is correct. Basically you measure from the center tap of the coil to each end. Clymer has you measure across the whole secondary and is why the reading is too high, twice too high....

I too have found the Clymer manuals to have the odd error in their specifications :thumbdown:
Best stick to the factory Yamaha manual :thumbup1:
Bob

Yep, Factory service manual only for me. I won't even take a Clymer or Haynes if someone was giving it for free(I actually did this with my KLR, I gave the previous owner it back when I bought the bike)Ordered the factory one .

What is very confusing is that I have compared 2 ignition coils and 2 CDI's and getting the same result.
Its my understanding that the ignition coil receives power via the stator to CDI to orange wire to Ignition coil.
Its gets the power then through movement at the pick up from running motor or kicking over?
The power coming from the brown and red wires (from stator) bringing AC current? The CDI either rectifies it or the ignition coil uses AC?
Trying to focus on the chain to spark.
Is it possible it has some cut off?
Seems straight forward just wondering if their was anything more i could do to isolate the ignition and rule out.
The 2nd CDI came from my old 85 XT600. It ran well last used.
Again: >kill switch has been disconnected at ignition coil
>neutral switch was taken out prior to me. Blue wire is just disconnected.
>kick stand switch disconnected and male and female bullet joined.

Thanks for the help guys!! this is becoming an obsession.

The stator provides AC power via the 2 white wires to the regulator/rectifier for running accys and charging the battery.

The Red and Brown wire is AC power that powers the CDI, CDI of course rectifies it for its own use and does not use the battery or accy power at all. The White/red, White/green and green wire is from the trigger coils. One trigger is at 12 degrees and the other is at 36 degrees. The CDI uses a combination of these for starting and or running as well as figuring out the advance curve for the RPM the engine is operating at. The Stock CDI and aftermarket CDI's except the Zeeltronics unit uses an analog circuit to control the advance. The Zeeltronics uses a microprocessor and precisely set the advance per your programming.

You can check the stator output with an AC volt meter set for 20 to 50 volts or so, when you kick the engine over you can see the AC voltage on the stator wires. Best if you have a schematic but the wires should be disconnected from external circuits for the measurement.

Both white wires should be connected to the AC voltmeter and should provide an upswing in voltage as you kick it. (remove spark plug to make it easier), the red and brown wire would be connected to measure CDI power and the White/red to green is connected to check 1/2 of the trigger coil and the white/green to green is to check the other 1/2.

If you get upswing of voltage on all of these the stator is probably OK.

In my case I did have voltage on all of these stator connections on both of my xt's but no spark. A new CDI fixed the problem. See my info on the Zeeltronics if you decide to replace the CDI. From early seat of the pants dyno, my 86 bike runs stronger with the Zeeltronics, I will be swapping the Hyperpak CDI back in to verify this is correct and not just wishful thinking on my part.

In looking at your question again, the CDI takes the AC voltage, steps it up higher to maybe a 100 or 200 volts DC and charges a capacitor, then when the trigger is detected and when the CDI determines when it is the correct time to fire depending on RPM it sends a fairly high voltage pulse to the coil via the orange wire by discharging the capacitor. The coil of course steps up this even higher to make the spark. CDI = Capacitor Discharge Ignition...

Are you seeing any pulse on the orange wire? Use the AC setting of about 50 volts or so. If you don't see anything, set the meter to a lower range. Keep in mind, if working properly the CDI will output a pretty hefty pulse. You would feel it as a shock if touching it. Not like the ignition coil output though.... The Zeeltronics actually steps up output to a 270 volt pulse, which will in turn provide an even higher coil output voltage than stock.

www.zeeltronic.com for further info. Best to send email to info@zeeltronic.com or borut@Zeeltronic.com He will answer and advise.

I think you are giving the wrong adress Steve? This is correct: ZEELTRONIC - HOME zeeltronic@gmail.com info@zeeltronic.com

That was my findings also. ^ The website given by xtrock has the correct info, I will find out for sure this week, need to chat with them on my new project.

Address's corrected
 

Thank you for pointing out my error in the addresses, added a "S" to the ending.

Steve

update:
switched wire harness and have spark. went back to previous harness compared tested. Problem was with the kick stand wires. Cut out connection and have spark.

THANK YOU GUYS. understanding the system convinced me to look harder at the wires.

Now I still have a no start but I feel i'm getting closer.
Plug looks to have a nice spark once grounded to head.
After killing my foot trying to kick over I had 2 small back fires from carb.
I'm still reading kick start procedure trying to get somewhere positive. Seems like too much compression.
I've tried starter fluid in intake, a little gas/oil mix in cylinder. pushing down a very steep hill:ban: just an occasional burp.
Plug is new. Tried 2 of them. Plug smells like gas but not wet.
I would expect something from the fuel added directly.
I'll pull carb again and check mixture screw and check float height.
Depressed I haven't had moment of relief.
Greg

Is your compression cable connected and working? If it is working, then make sure you set the free play to .5mm. If too much free play you won't get the full benefit of the compression release.

If your cable is broken, replace it or you will blow out your knee.

Starting procedure is:
gas on, key off, throttle closed. Kick over 3 or 4 times. If warm weather, no choke necessary. Key on, kick down until you hear the click, release kicker to come to the top of stroke then Kick hard all the way down. No throttle until it fires, then feed a little to make sure it keeps running. Cold weather you will have to experiment on how much choke you need. Rarely do you need a full choke. In my experience with mine, if it fires and dies immediately, try again. If it does this again, add a little choke.

I am sure others can chime in with suggestions.

If you know you've flooded it, OPEN throttle wide open and kick a few times with key off. You may have to let sit as well.

Hope this helps.

I always kick mine with a good set of motocross boots or at minimum high work boots tightend up good for ankle support. It makes a person more willing to kick harder. I mean kick HARD !!
On mine I always have to use full choke on a cold motor regardless of temp, but have to turn off right after it fires. Even though it runs rich.
When you loosen the drain screw on carb does the gas come out at a good rate and continue for the entire time? Just to check for sufficient fuel flow in carb bowl.
Try a bit more gas/oil than what you have. about 2 teaspoons full(maybe 1 to 2 cc in a syringe).

gas + air + spark = fire , as long as compression and ignition timing is right anyways, which brings up another suggestion, is the timing right?

It could be not kicking fast enough. Any way of bribing someone to give you a really good push down hill (third or fourth gear)?
And PLEASE, NO MORE starting fluid !! I hate that stuff for gas engine, even don't care for it on diesels unless really cold.

The decompress cable looks to be in good condition. Can I see what the cable is doing? Is it an obvious movement it makes when it releases. I'll stare at it in the light.
I feel its not working or working correct. I can hear that last click but don't feel the pressure ease up. But about %30 of time it kicks well. So seems something is working?

Have not checked the timing.

Pulled carb again, will check float height and check pilot. (have thoroughly gone through all ready but ....)

Carb has gas. when i drain the bowl their is plenty of gas
will take advice and try again later today
thanks

Just remember, it is a 30 year old bike, they have little querks and special ways of doing things. The starting procedure becomes natural once you figure out just what your particular motor is happy with, then starting becomes easy(er ?). Till then, you do start to question your own sanity doh.
This is why I'm converting mine to E-start, plus to be able to re-start a hot motor at will not whether the bike "feels" like starting. Sat on the curb for 10-15min waiting for the thing to cool just to get the thing started again too many times:funmeterno:. My '83 Honda XL does that as well, 80's tech, gotta love it. But I sure do get a lot of compliments on the great 'ol bikes.

The decompress arm in the head pushes one exhaust valve open a little bit to allow some of the compression out, the bike won't start when the valve is doing this, thus why we say to get it just past the "click" and then a full hard kick.
The decompress cable should be adjusted by slowly kicking the motor over till it "clicks" then release the kick lever and go look at the arm on the head that the cable is attached to. You should be able to push that arm toward the rear of the bike .5 mm (.02") fairly easy(it does have spring pressure). That means it is allowing the valve to close completely, if there is no free play the engine won't start very good due to loss of compression, but it still may "feel" like it has enough. If it has a bunch more free play, the decompress won't really do much and the kick lever will "hit a wall" and be extremely hard to push past.

Ok first thank you all very much for advice and wisdom!!!
I got it started tonight!!! finally
Went through carb again and took some guitar wire and cleaned out the pilot. Looked like it had a block on the top. I feel this had a lot to do with it as it seemed it wasn't getting fuel.
put all back together and when i tried to start it gave indication of a maybe. But the decompress cable still seemed not right. Took advice on that and played with it. Opened up valve adjustment points and everything look correct. Wind up tightening it up and what a difference!!! Stumbled a bunch then sprayed a spit of starter in and it turned over. probably would of been a good idea at this point to turn the petcock to on!!!! Then bam it came to life.
Shut bike down when i saw a leak from the secondary main jet. Well its busted and I have another carb and that one is busted too :(. Any advice on where to track one down?
Looks like I might be able to seal it up for the time being with some tubing.

In conclusion
Great board, was very helpful to have help. Once I knew the wiring was not the issue it was much easier to keep focus. I could of wasted a lot of time on the ignition/charging system with out the replies.

Now to get the main jets and actually drive it and see what other issues pop up.:eek3:
Best
Greg

You say the secondary main jet is broken? or is it just the supply hose. Those hoses can rot and leak.

the jet. looks like it was over torqued. Treaded stem is in carb body.

That's the drain on the bottom of the carb, not really a jet. You can get away for now with just clamping a short hose on it and plugging the other end of the hose. Obviously don't leave it like that for long. They do tend to get crammed too tight, which makes them leak more down the road.

On the bottom of the right carb body (sitting on bike), there is a jet that screws up in. its attached to hose connecting other carb body.
yamaha has it as a #130 jet 5y1-14343-65-00.
It looks like it might be obsolete?

Yes, the screw in hose bib is a jet as well. If you watch eBay, you will run across one once in a while. I found a 125 and plan to try it in Colorado. Previously I found that while in the Colorado High country I was too rich and as a field expedient I put a piece of .020 safety wire thru that secondary main jet to make it leaner. I ran it that way many times over the years.

OH yes, in the second carb> that is the jet for the second carb. You can get those jets for the "E" models 1994 XT600EF Yamaha Motorcycle CARBURETOR Diagram and Parts

They may be a smaller size than your but can be drilled out if needed. I have gotten some of the other jets and carb parts and they fit the older models. It looks like it may work but a couple of the parts might have to be switched over due to some differences in the gas feed tube/hose from the first carb.

Ah. I knew a table of data from a German site I think I found here might come in useful. Been in my favourites for ages...

Have a look at the carburetor main jet left/right row.
Clicky

I think Geschischregulierschraube is pilot screw base position. Ignore this if you don't know for sure if your carb inlet rubbers are reasonably new. Both mine needed another 3 turns out with old but "re-sealed" (actually as leaky as hell) rubbers.