Programmable TCI unit for the XT600E
 

I just found this programmable TCI unit for the XT600E on the HPI.BE website..


This actually is very interesting, keeping in mind that the ignition curve on the later XT600E is pretty soft. Regulation thing no doubt.

Maybe this unit can get a few extra HP out of a XT600E ? What do you guys think?

HPI | Horse Power Ignition

I looked at the web page you indicated. Looks like you can get it programmed for 2 advance curves and select either. I responded to a request for the advance curve for the 80's CDI XT600 for a guy that was buying one of the HPI's. He wanted to see if more power could be had with a better ignition curve. Sounds like a good idea, I'd order one with the stock curve and the older CDI curve and test between them to see. You certainly need to be concerned about pinging or detonation with a more advanced ignition. Perhaps even switching to the lesser advance curve if you can only get a poor grade of fuel at times.

Thanks once again Steve for excellent info. The XT600E has nice torque but it is not that powerful. I have a honda FMX650 (basically a streetbike or semi-supermoto with the old XR650L engine). The power difference is big, once the FMX650 had been uncorcket. Touring Ted had told me all about this, and he was not wrong.


Both engines (XT600E and XR650L) are in mild trim, low compression etc.. The XT600E is one fine bike, but it would get so much better, even with only 3-5 hp more.

:thumbdown::thumbup1:

Real world experience
 

Claims aside, has anyone installed one? Noticeable performance improvement?
I'd like to get more pop instead pulling like a tractor.
Thanks

I think we all like more power. It can be had for a big price. Higher compression, more agressive cam timing, heavier valve spring to handle the cam, better breathing with larger valves and ports cleaned up, bigger carbs, free flowing air filter. It takes a concert of cooperating changes to achieve a sizable power increase. The down side is, shorter engine life, and just a more cantankerous bike.

I like the longevity of the current engine and can do with a little less power. We'll see how my 86 and 84 compare when they are on the road together.

Steve

How much shorter life do you get by adding high compression piston, cam+++? I can recomend the KTM if you want action and power, with 75hp it will take on the rear wheel on all gears.

Seems like KTM has really come to the front and are really hot. I'd say a bike built to todays standards will last a long time. Materials and engineering are much improved today over 30 years ago.

Improving an old XT is not the same thing at all and may compromise the engine with mods.

These motors are plenty stout for adding hp. All a person needs to do is put in the new oil pump that adds volume and run quality oil, changed before it breaks down from the shearing in the trans. I've had several of the 660's apart and they aren't any higher quality than the old ones (which they are designed out of). There are guys running turbos or high comp pistons, bored to the max and run at high rpms without much issues. usually problems arise from simple abuse or poor maintenance .

All motors will have somewhat shorter lives when built up however with good habits it wouldn't be a measurable difference. A person just can't let it idle for 10 minutes @350F or let the it scream at 7000rpm for 20miles just to beat or keep up with your buddy on his crotch rocket. Keep it sane and no problems.

As for the new tci running the older curve(good idea to help them out but mostly will add on top end due to more advance), welllllllll, the motors are the same, just with a starter added to one. I have an '85 jug,head,and valvetrain on my 3TB, an '89 jug & head on the 660 bottom end, all cams are the same, valves are the same, piston is the same. the trans is the biggest difference and it has nothing to do with combustion. Jetting as always will need to be tuned for proper mixture, no black magic involved. The newer heads have just a little smaller intake runners and the carb bore are smaller, there is where most of the 3-4hp loss is on those. Using the older carbs may be a good choice.

If a person wants to know where any power gains can be gotten with these motors, just ask those that installed bigger/better carbs. The stock carbs are whats holding them back, they're just a pain to change over. Then and only then will a person get all the benefits from high comp pistons , taller cam profiles, porting , timing curves, and exhausts.

Very good dissertation and explanation. As you said, good maintenance is vital and certainly much more important if the engine is taxed more. It is just amazing how much abuse these old bikes can take and still come back for more. Thank you for the good information, we all can learn from those who know...

Steve :clap::clap:

I have an 86 and a 90. The biggest improvement I got was from air pods and jetting up. a lot. The top end rockets with that change. I put old carbs , same pipe and jetting on the 90 and while bottom and mid improved , the timing advance kept the top end a dog. Just ordered a 90 box with the 86 curve in it from HPI. We will see what happens. Application, no guessing.THUMPTHUMP

How are your bikes at low RPM pulling, stalling etc. Back in the day, 1986 to be exact, I took my new 86 xt to Moab, stock gearing and all. I tackled the Moab Rim Trail and it just took it in stride, no stalling, just hard pulling and ledge jumping. The heart stopping was when it was time to come back down and you see how really steep it is... made it....

Steve

Pulls like a tractor, hard to stall. It will pull clean from below idle. It took a couple of years to get the cv and conventional carb to run right with air pods I ride from sea level to about 6000 feet regularly with no issues. thumpthump

Humm, interesting. Do you have the jetting and other info to share. You have my interest.... I ride from about 1000' around Oklahoma and up to 13k in Colorado.

Steve

On my 86, I have 86 TT 600 carbs with a 135 main in the primary carb and a 130 in the secondary. Pilot jet is a 48 . The clip in the primary carb slide needle is on the 4th down from the top. The clip in the secondary carb slide needle is on the bottom slot. Adjust the air / fuel screw to the highest idle. I am running air pods with home made outer foam covers. The pipe is a supertrapp with 12 discs. This is real rich but prevents the flat spot in mid range from running air pods on the CV secondary carb. The idle will be a little erratic until at full operating temp. The bottom and mid range will be much stronger and with the air pods the top end will take off instead of being flat. My bike will shoot up to 100 mph with no problem. be careful the old cdi has no rev limiter. Expect gas mileage to drop from 60 to 45 if running hard. MY 90 is set up the same except I have the xt carbs with the adjustable needles from a tt carb and the choke converted to a lever rather than a cable. It starts with no choke even in the winter. The bottom and mid range are great but the top is held back by the ignition curve. Thus the new box and curve. I hope for the same results as the 86. Time will tell THUMPTHUMP

Hey, thanks for the info. I do have a 135 main and 130 secondary from a set of TT carbs. As far as I can tell the XT and TT carbs are the same except for the jetting. I put XT jets in and am running the air box. Since I have the zeel, no over rev.

You will need the adjustable slide needles from the tt carb. The xt's do not have the clip slots. Try it with the side off the air box. This setup needs lots of air. The stock box was the restriction in getting the top end power. I have only gone to 6800 ft. That is the highest point on the east cost. It is about an hour from me. It will be way too rich for 10,000 ft. THUMPTHUMP

I think one set of of the two carb sets I got was from a TT as it was jetted 135 main and 130 secondary. I did not know about the adjustable needle differences. Makes sense since it was for street use and the adjustable jet had the brass plug as well.

Any outward sign of a TT carb? I have both sets installed now but do not know which set was what I think was TT carbs.

Steve

TT carb has a manual choke lever and the xt carb uses a cable to the handle bars. The tt has adjustable needles , the xt does not. The TT usually comes with 135/135 main jets and the xt usually has 125/130 main jets. The rest is the same. The pilot jets vary from 46 to 48 depending on the year. THUMPTHUMP

My ignition box with the 86 curve for my 90 xt600e came in today. I plugged it in and it runs. I am off tomorrow and will see how it does with all the extra advance. I did a top speed run a couple weeks ago and will try it again at the same place. THUMPTHUMP

:thumbup1::thumbup1:

anxious to hear your results...

I'm hoping it works, I have a "e" motor that'll be getting this option , soon. 28deg advance is pretty anemic .

Well, I went riding in the mountains today and put about 200 miles on it. The improvement over the stock ignition is very noticeable. The throttle response is much better, the power down low is better , the transition through the middle got rid of the flat spot were the second carb comes in, and finally a surge of power on top to the rev limiter instead of flattening out. It revs out much quicker and you have to shift quick to stay off the rev limiter. It gets to 100 mph much sooner than before and is held there due to gearing and the rev limiter. Over all a great success. The only strange thing so far is it runs for about 2 seconds after you hit the kill switch before it dies. It does die immediately when the key is switched off. The idle was much faster than before I changed it out with the stock one and had to turn it down a little. I rode at altitude most of the day 3000-4500 feet and had good improvement , but when I headed home down to about 1000 ft it went much faster with more air. If anyone is interested let me know and I will tell you who to contact there to get this done. I have already sent him the map for the 86 that was loaded into mine. THUMPTHUMP

I am happy your were able to use the 86 curve and have such good results. HPI will probably sell lots of those TCI's with that advance curve in it.

I think the reason the zeeltronic works so well is that you do get the actual 36 degrees of advance you program. Who knows what the OEM and aftermarket analog CDI's actually advance to.

Good show....

Steve

The Oem and aftermarket are digital for these bikes (TCI, not cdi) , the stock is 28deg advance, probably aftermarket copied that limit(unless they take a motor apart for each model, they don't know if it can take more ). The one he bought is from HPI . As you know, Zeeltronic doesn't make one for these models.

Yep, I read that earlier that he needed an advance curve for the earlier models to send to HPI.

I don't think Borut is going to bother building one for the TCI since there is already a digital version out there.

I am happy he could use the 36 degree curve to good use. I guess they did not move the trigger coils so that allows for full advance

Why wouldn't he make the newer one? Multiple sources is what keeps prices down. There is a lot of the "e" models out there, just not in the states. :censored:

PM sent. THANKS once again:clap::clap:

I have repeatedly asked Borut about it and last conversation he said it would not pay him to do it. I'll bump him again, especially since the older advance curve really wakes up the bikes. Many might convert to get the boost.

Steve

Thanks for the map with the 86 curve you sent me Steve. That is what he loaded. THUMPTHUMP

What is the price for this?

$182 for the unit and $32 fror shipping. They did not charge me to load the curve.THUMPTHUMP

Ok thanks, you have two curves? Would be nice to switch between original and the old to really feel the difference when riding.

I have only 1 curve. I did not want to pay for two or the switch that handlebar mounts. They did not quote a price for that. I have no use for the old curve, it sucks. They sell a kit that allows you to load your own curves for about $ 132 if I remember right. You have to come up with the curves. That is why I got the 86 curve from Steve to send them. If you are technological enough with that stuff you can buy it all and custom make any curve you want. I am still in the stone age, that is why I ride a 25 year old bike.THUMPTHUMP

ThumpThumpwould you be kind enough to reply to my PM or post here on the thread the infoneeded to order the “right” TCI unit/mapping?

Sorry G600, I just replied to you and a couple of others. The HUBB does not send a note to my email like some other sites do. THUMPTHUMP

If i understand you correct you added the old curve?

That sounds like good news ! Is there any chance you could post the 86 curve ? I guy l know locally has a programmable unit it sounds like it worth trying ! When l get my motor back together after a freshen up :mchappy:Thanks !

86 XT600 advance curve
 

Try this:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...vancecurve.jpg

Let us know how it turns out. I've been in communications with Zeeltronic and they are working on their programmable version for the TCI ignition, same thing, you can have 2 curves preprogrammed by them and select either one with a switch.

The basic curve follows the original except that little ankle breaking drop at less than 1000rpm.

Steve, the 660 curve would be the same shape,12deg @1500 to 36(probably up to 38deg, but my motor has reverse and extra limiters involved, also has a proximity detector for reading rpms on the tranny, I think the curve can be used but the TCI is quite different than the 600e's. Not sure how the 660 in the European bike is controlled compared to the 600e's either.

Thanks for that ! I have a few hours in the shed ahead of me before l can try it but i,m looking forward to it :D

I had the 90 curve replaced with the 86 curve. I have only one in the box. Mine does not have a switch , just a data access port/ cable. THUMPTHUMP

He had quoted me 225EUR for the TCI with programable setup, 2 curves and switchable, so that option add quite a bit.

Fuel economy will probably go down with the '80's setup so that may be a reason for having 2 curves that can be switched. Don't know how much mpg would change but I would suspect a little.

Why would starting to burn the same fuel sooner burn more gas? It is just more efficient burn through of existing fuel. To do the same speed you may use less throttle. THUMPTHUMP

There's more to it than that.

No, that is all there is to it. You are just changing the time in the combustion cycle when the sparkplug fires and the effect that has on burn pattern and efficiency of the fuel igniting before top dead center arrives. Everything else remains the same. Your power improves through more complete and efficient use of the gas in the cylinder. There is no increase in gas consumption except that caused by your wrist. However , on a fuel injected motor with oxygen sensors it would be different. The ecu would be changing the injectors output and duration to keep the oxygen sensors happy with your fuel to air ratio. Thus more power = more fuel. THUMPTHUMP

So now you have the 86 curve for the 3TB model? Is it then possible to use the CDI unit on the 3TB with modification to the connection? And why did they change the curve if the old one was better for the bike?

The systems are very different. The CDI in the old bike builds a charge in the engine and releases it to the coil. CDI capacitor discharge ignition. The TCI in the new bike Builds the charge in the coil. Its more than the connection. They usually do things like that because of emission requirements that change with every administration. Blame it on California. Until you get into modern ECUs and fuel injection technology more power usually resulted worse emissions. That's why carbureted bikes that were street legal got heavier and slower . They always compensated with more displacement. THUMPTHUMP

You hit partially on why mileage will decrease a bit,how much ? can't say, there are several ways for it to. You have to think of how gas usage is figured and what causes a motor to use more. Unless it is computer controlled.

Just the tip of the ice burg. I just want to know how far till I'm pushing. THUMPTHUMP

Regulation thing no doubt. For example, the TTR600 was a performance bike to a degree, it had a modified XT600E engine. No e-start, narrower engine, lighter crankshaft, blah blah..but basically a XT600E engine.. and it had a CDI ignition box. That box had a wire that could alter the ignition map from soft ( as delivered and complying with regulations) to performance. I am told the difference was very noticeable.

Looking forward to getting my tci from hpi :D

Anyone compared the aftermarked unit to the stock? Just wonder if they only swap a chip inside, maybe possible to send one of my units for upgrade.

I asked Borut at Zeeltronic about the possibility of using an existing unit he already has built that runs on 12dc instead of the CDI charging type stator and tailor it to the newer xt with TCI ignition. The coil would have to change to the older type but the 12 volt powered CDI would work just like the Stator Power CDI when it fired. He didn't like that idea as he wanted (and is now designing a TCI replacement) use the stock coil and wiring as much as possible to make it easy to hook up. Some of us have the skill to hook up about anything and MAKE it work but most would rather have a plug and play. Makes sense from a marketing standpoint. It will be interesting to see how it turns out as more will be opting for the HPI unit with the older advance curve. Having more aftermarket units out there for us is a good thing.
Steve

Hi, just got my new cdi with 86 map for my 2003 model. It idles fine, but it seems to get noisy under load, from about 4000rpm, dont know if its pinging or not. I'll change the cdi back to stock and compare.

Im really bummed, cant really feel an increase in power. I shouldn't have to rejet or anything, so dont know whats up..... :(

I switched to air pods and am running a 135 main , 48 pilot, and have tt slide needles raised to the highest setting[clip at lowest position], in the primary carb. The secondary carb has a 130 main and the tt slide needles also at the highest setting. Take the side off your box and jet up. This motor needs air and more fuel to take advantage of the timing change. This is what I did to my 86 to get the improved performance. My 90 is set up the same way with the 86 curve.THUMPTHUMP

+1 almost 100%. My 2000 idles a little higher, gets noisier under load and runs rougher. I went back to stock and like it better, the bike runs smoother.

I do think the 1986 curve gives a little more power at mid-high rpms. But it is not much and not worth it IMHO, I like the smoothness of the stock unit.

My bike is stock, except for the airbox snorkel and a little bit better flowing (stock) exhaust (muffler insert slight mod).

Waste of money!

Yeah I guess so. Do you also have a unit?



Unless one is going to modify his bike like thumpthump has done.


Well.. win some lose some..

I was expecting something like this:


Instead I spent a couple hundred, and my bike now runs worse, I feel screwed. Dont think jetting will solve it, but after spending that amount of money, I feel like i have to make it work, but I really dont feel like spending hours in the garage, when this should be plug'n'play....Soooo eeh....fingers crossed. But Im really bummed.

Currently/when I testdrove Ive got the needle in the maincarb raised one notch, and a #48 idle jet, otherwise stock. Thats with bigger diameter headers, laser produro exhaust, KN filter (in original airbox) and snorkel in airbox removed.

The only thing i can recomend and know is worth money is the dynojet kit! Last one here on forum confirmed it made nice improvement, sounds to me like you need to get more fuel Jens.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...it-worth-72218

Sorry your results are so disappointing, I tried lots of mods but nothing changed much until I got a lot more air and mid range fuel to the motor. Try it with the top/side of the airbox off , and raise the needles just as a experiment. That advance at idle and just after needs fuel to burn. My throttle response down low improved also. THUMPTHUMP

I have 2 new units I'm testing(on 4 XT's), plus all the old and found unless the stock cdi is crappy you won't find much, if any, performance increase. Easier starting has been the one common thing I've seen with both new units over the stockers.
Air and fuel is what these motors need, badly.

So im throwing in the towel....Cant make this cdi with the '86 map work properly.

I've tried as fat as 130/130 jetting, with both needles completely raised, and a 48 idle jet. I run without the snorkel in the airbox, KN-filter and have even removed the whole side of the airbox, played with removing db-killer ect ect... You name it, I've tried, for a whole day with different settings.

I just about got the pinging away, but the engine still acts "rough", and no HP gains. The stock cdi is sooo much smoother.

So for me atleast, a complete waste of a lot of money, and a lot of my spare time. :(


Soeh, anyone wanna buy a new cdi...? doh

maybe this will help some how.. Fabriquez votre CDI pour XT600

Where is it pinging ? low rpms? high? I wonder if you need the older carbs they are bigger cfm I believe so will allow more mixture in. If you were in the US I'd borrow you a set to try. Otherwise pm me with how much you'd want for the cdi , I have a 3tb and will be using an older set of carbs, if not my efi system I'm working on (oops, shhhhh).

Around where the advance starts, I think it was from 3500/4000rpm ish.

I paid 250.47us$ for the cdi incl shipping, tax ect ect. Pm me..? :)

Your project sounds nice tho'

90 xt600e with 86 curve and 86 carbs . No pings and I run on regular 86 octane. 135 main and 130 secondary.THUMPTHUMP

86oct?:eek3:

In the US regular gas is 86 octane, plus is 89 octane and premium is 91 or 93 depending on where you live. You probably have different terms for grades of gas. 86 is the most likely to ping and 93 is the most likely not to ping, or knock as we call it. predetonation. thumpthump

Yes here we run on 95octane and same for Jens. Strange you have so low octane, is it same on cars? we can also get 98/99octane. How are the old bikes/cars handling the difference from 86-93 without any change in the ignition?

Ok i see: Research Octane Number (RON) is used, but in North America, the Anti-Knock Index (AKI) is used. Conventional 'standard' "Premium Unleaded" petrol in the United Kingdom, Europe, South Asia and Australia has an octane rating of 95 RON, and in North America it is AKI/RdON/PON 91-93 (RON 96–98).

Our "regular' is 87, not 86 , the 89( both with ethanol), and 91(non ethanol), Then race gas!!

Out west I've seen 85 as regular and 93 premium,so it's are dependent on what is run. I believe they use a little different method of classifying gas in Europe than here in the US.