xt600e rear linkage rebuild
 

Hi guys
: )
as the weather in Georgia gets shittier and riskier to ride, I've started my wintry improvements and that one seems to be most important:
time after time rear swingarm on my '02 xt has gained quite a free play in almost all links of rear linkage (so far not on the swingarm's bearings).


so I've bought used linkage kit on ebay, but instead of direct replacing, I've decided to improve the "new" one in this way:
all but one links are made with just sleeves and I'd like to replace them with bearings.

I will have to ask you guys some questions about this stuff.
also, if you've done something similar, than sharing your experience would be great.
:rolleyes2:


well, as you see (or just already know without these pics) only in #3 is a bearing and other links are made with sleeves.

http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/images/590021.jpg

as far as I know there's quite similar configuration on all xt's of other years as well.

http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/images/881552.jpg


the reason why I do this is simple - more durability. sleeve or bearing, they obviously depend on lubrication and I suppose, bearings should last much longer.

so my plan is to change sleeves with bearings in the link #2 and #4.
and probably I will also have to change/reshape one or more center axis or outer hole diameter according to the size of the bearing.

and now I start with questions:

1. is there any chance to place a bearing in the link #1 (coilover's end) as well?
2. which will be more durable in the links 2 and 4 - needle roller bearings or couple of ball bearings on the both sides?
3. do I have to stick to the special grade of bearing or any new bearing will anyway be better than sleeve?


that's it so far. I'm gonna update this topic according to the progress as well.

:smile2:

:)

I see no nead for a bearing. Use the greasegun once in a while, and youre golden.

i actually can see the improvement, I have bikes with both solutions and the ones with needle bearing always showed more wear resistance and less need for maintenance, so you have a point IMHO. problem is that you will need to enlarge the holes to install a bearing as it has a larger OD than the bushing and i cant see enough "meat" there to do so, it will weaken the link noticeably.

the only real solution is to design and produce by CNC new aluminum links with more "meat" around the bearings, that's what i did in one of my road race bikes. the play in the links was upsetting my cornering and it also saved quite bit of weight compared to the steel piece.

not rocket science, but not a piece of cake either. best/easiest if you can do the CAD by yourself and have friends in a CNC shop :)

thanks guys
: )


actually yes, I think that all this stuff is worth to the effort.

well, now I've got 2 general options and so far both of them seem to be feasible:

1. using existing linkage and find appropriate OR almost appropriate bearings. about "almost" - outer side of some bearing (especially if there will be coupled ball bearings) could be trimed to fit. also grinding a new center axis with a bit smaller diameter and stronger material might be option as well.

2. CNC. CAD is easier then it might seem - only a distance between links, some (not even all) inner diameters and angle matter. so, precise measurements could be done easily.
a challenge here might be to get proper raw materials. I'm not an expert in this but I think that it should be not pure but some alloy of aluminum. There're few decent CNC shops in Tbilisi and hopefully they will be affordable, in the case if I will have to stick to this option.


I'm gonna dig through the details of the both options and hopefully it won't take a long time.

:)

go with option two... if you are worried about the alluminium strength, oversize it quite bit over the bearing areas. rigidity and strength go up by the power of two, i.e. 140% = 200% stronger.

another option that i tried once was to build a wooden link and then give it to casting. again, oversize by a good 3-4 mm compared to the steel part.

Well, as it appears I have to stop thinking about CNC option.

everything is clear about the material - it's duraluminum; maybe the most common and easy to get alloy of aluminum, which is strong enough and there's no need to oversize it.

The main reason is that for cutting such shape normally 5-axis machine is required. it's almost the same as 6-axis machine, intended for cutting spatial shapes.

And the bad thing is that there's none of such CNC machines in the whole Georgia. Sucks but it true.

I tried to figure out how it's possible to simplify the shape to make it feasible to be cut by the existing "flat" machines (and then find a good turner to complete the shape).
but unfortunately as it appears this will cost too much - probably even more than buying brand new linkage. - the thing is that pricing is calculated according CNC working time (not including the material) and for simple machines it takes too much time to cut even plain spatial thing.


So, I'm gonna take my time to find a good way to renovate and improve my existing linkage..

I dont know how many 100k km you ride on this bike but lets ask Jens how many times he needed change of these in what 150k km?

I'm just over 170.000km :innocent:

I think i replaced mine 2 times. 1st time was the linkage only, 2nd time was because the swingarmbearings got bad, and when I was already working, i replaced the linkagebearings aswell.

2nd time I did it, I installed greasezerks in all the linkages and swingarm. Some where missing and regular bolts was installed instead by the PO, and some not present from the factory (swingarm) I've since ridden 80.000km

After that the only maintenance was to give them a pump or 2 with the greasegun once in a while

I've just replaced the swingarm with a nice one from ebay, because it was cheaper than getting my current one blasted and painted, so I gave the "new" swingarm some new bearings, but the linkage was still fine.

The bike is used during winter, it has been stuck in mud/water up to the seat in more than one occasion.

So as I said earlier, i wouldnt bother to re-design the parts.

Well, few updates after a while.
: )
I had to postpone the idea of changing sleeves into the bearings, as I had lots of a trouble getting bearings with proper size and quality.

on the other hand, I had this plan to vanish any free play around the rear swingarm.

so, I found a good turner to cut new sleeves (3 pcs) and bolts, including shocker bolts (5pcs) from W1-7 / CT80 grade carbon tool steel. lube channels were also made as well as thermal treatment.
seems that they gonna last quite a while :mchappy:

I didn't touch the old bearing, which was in good shape.
by the way, if anyone will have to change this thing, this is exact name and type of the bearing:
NTN fs 7e-hvs 17x24x25-1

I've found this on ebay, seems that different brand, but the same size: Nadellager 7E-HVS17X24X25-1#01 7E-HVS17X24X25-1#01 NEEDLE BEARING NEU | eBay

despite of all of this effort, I still consider changing all sleeves with bearings as a possible future plan.
the worn condition of the old sleeves and bolts (I'll post some photos later) in contrast with good working condition of the bearing makes one more proof for this idea; as a longterm solution, if linkage needs some attention other than lube.

and that's how a worn pin and sleeve look:
http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/images/67061sl.png
:9898:
and there was no lube option for the pin, which connects linkage and shocker.

I also upgraded this pin to bolt and nut, where the thread runouts before the shocker mount.

by the way, for lubing the linkage i used lithium molybdenum grease for it's water resistant properties. any better idea about it?

I use waterproff grease, belray or simular. It about impossible to dillute and/or remove with water. Its really good for this stuff.

Some things I've done with linkage pins is drill an 1/8"(3-4mm) hole from the hex end usually at least halfway the length of pin and then a 1/16"(2mm) cross hole and tap the end for a grease zerk. Then I can squirt grease as often as I want to the pins and bushings , greatly reduces wear and makes sure all areas are lubed good.

I like a high moly content grease as well .

Well, condition "ok" makes me to postpone this plan till the next winter.

Although, as it seems after completing other scheduled services I might have some spare time before I will be able to start riding again.

For such opportunity I've decided to think about kinda "intermediate" update of the rear linkage system - using bronze sleeves instead of current steel ones.

The idea about bronze came from it's friction resistant properties.
I was aware that bronze is used in some bearings, and how about as a sleeve in linkages?
Do I need some particular alloy or degree of this metal?
Has anyone tried something like that?
What about pros/cons?

So far, I'm thinking about one possible drawback - the future of the mating surfaces - well, if bronze is stronger, even in the case proper lubrication will it cause more than a normal wear on pin or linkage body? ..

So, quite a silence, huh?
Do I have to think that the stuff I'm asking is either very wacky or very obvious? :)

traffic is a bit slow these days here, bikes are in deep winter sleep ;)

many older bikes came with main swingarm bronze bushings (like british bikes and old honda sohc4's), if lubricated works ok, if not will wear out, hopefully without damaging shaft. looks like you have enough wall thickness to do them in bronze easily

I'm currently doing a lot of bearings and chain sliders with Ertalon 4.6 (POLYAMIDE [PA 46] - it can run dry even... never tried it for suspension bushings but might do one day.

Hippe PA 46 Nylon 46

As Ive said before, I wouldnt bother. Its not been an issue for me, even with a lot of miles.

As for the shock bushing. Some ktm's actually run a bronce (or something like that) bushing there, which accordingly to the manual, are meant to be kept dry. Most people lube the hell out of it anyway, as it wears faster dry, since dirt and water still finds it way in without the grease to protect/"seal" it.

I understand the feeling where you just gotta do something for the fun of it, but is this really that big of a concern? The thread was started over a year ago? Or has the bike been apart since?

Happy riding :scooter:

Thanks guys

That winter sleep thing is for real indeed : ) long and slow garage-soaking period ..
Although I'm not sure if I'll be able to find that degree of polyamide here, so will probably stick to bronze and also will share the opinion of the most people and will add greasing holes as well : )

Well, bike's been apart again - had no such plan but one day I've discovered that after many small steps stretched in time, bike became frame-naked : )

And this bronze improvement is totally optional - after completing other jobs if I still have to be waiting some ordered parts, than I plan to take couple days for this stuff, otherwise no.

You could just buy one of Daves refurbished kits, he writes,,,,There are a total of 31 parts in this refurbished XT suspension linkage, 18 of them are improved and upgraded.

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ac&oe=5B04FA21

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...97&oe=5B128D7B

Mezo.

this gus sells small bit of 4.6

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Dia-25m...0AAOSwrklVfBQW

Mezo's option sounds exactly what you're after. :thumbup1:

Where to buy, cant find any price or possible to order?

https://www.facebook.com/rallyandoverland/

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Rally-And-Overland

Welcome - David Lambeth 00 44 (0)1205 871945

Mezo.

I'd make the bushings out of Delrin or Celcon(a type of Acetal ) instead of bronze (there are about 30 different alloys of bronze) . The plastics are much more slippery and will wear slower than bronze . We make a lot of stuff from plastics , surprising how they'll wear steal out , unless the temps get into 175-200ºf then Peek or other very costly plastics are needed . There are some with PTFE (teflon) in it to make them even more slippery . I've had a teflon strip screwed to the top of my '88's swingarm as a chain guide/wear slider , it's barely got any grooves yet after 4 years (roughly 4000-4500 miles)



.

Why do you think they make bronze valve guides? :innocent:

Mezo.

In those situations it is a better material . We have to be careful of dimensional changes with plastics in heat/cold cycles . Yamaha uses a type of Delrin in their a-arm bushings on their quads :thumbup1: . Suzuki has it in some swingarm bushings as well as a few other brands along with actual needle bearings , not seen any with bronze .


.

And most replace thoose plastic-bushings with bearing-kits when they wear out. :D

I really think that the plastic-bushings offered from the factory, is due to lower cost, and that only.

I've only seen them in lower end stuff anyway, like my dt175. I have never owned a quad/4x4 so dont know about thoose.

Too bad the plastics are more costly than most std bronze bushings , so not a cost saving thing . After actually using various plastics over a few decades at work, in places like this they are superior to bronze and will allow a smoother action due to better slipperiness ,especially when grease is present , just that simple , not a guess or " I think" thing .



.

I think the plastic is a cost saving over using traditionel needlebearings. Again, i've never seen the plastic stuff on highend stuff. So thats why id made sence for me.

I really dont think that yamaha used the plasticbushings to "upgrade" the all mighty dt175 which didnt even had a powervalve or discbrakes. Or proper suspention for that matter. Heck, it even came with a non o-ring 428 chain, why not start the upgrade there?

Have never owned a bike that had bronze bushings stock, which ones have thoose?
Im mostly a yammie guy...

Thanks to all.
And really glad to read all these diversified details :rolleyes2:
Well, I'm already on assembly stage so will not go any further with my linkage this year.
Next time, if I will start to think about upgrading, I'd probably stick to needle bearings.

That's a good info to have. And maybe I'm really overdoing stuff in some cases - even this guy haven't made a zerk on shocker and linkage connecting pin (top left pin on second pic)...


Thanks, good to know that such probably rare stuff is ebay-able : )


If I had a spare bike & time for this, I'd gladly do some quite rude experiments kinda plastic vs bronze and then winner vs needle roller, maybe even in dry and water-attacked modes :funmeteryes:

Aftermarket or alternative parts?
 

Hey guys, I’m new to the group and just wondering if anyone had any ideas to help in my current predicament, I have a 2002 xt600e just failed mot due to excessive play in rear linkage bearings/bushes, I’ve stripped the swing arm down and found the culprits, but it seems that one of the parts I need has been discontinued, it’s part number 90380-14095, solid bush 5x6, I cannot find one anywhere, I would like to get one made up but I don’t know and can’t find the original dimensions for it, does anyone know of the dimensions or where I could potentially get a replacement part from in the uk?
Many thanks in advance

They don’t deliver to the uk mate but thanks????????

Try here. You pay for the part. They get it to their warehouse & weight it. Then you pay for the shipping.
https://yumbo-jp.com/en/parts.html?partNo=90380+14095

if you are in UK, then maybe get this complete kit form yambits, they are local to you


https://yambits.co.uk/xt600e-swing-a...t-p-14292.html


will cost you less for the whole kit than just one bushing + shipping from far