XTZ 1VJ 1986 No spark
 

Hi all,

Need your help to get some specs for measuring possible faulty parts.

My old bike just died on me while driving. Had to bring it home by trailer.
Anyway, there is no spark what so ever and I thougt you guys have the specs and how to measure Ignition coil, cdi, stator and pick up.

CDI is 1VJ-51, 070000-1521 QAB52
So if anybody out there possibly have some tips and tricks what to measue and how I would be very happy.

BR
Lars-Erik

Does your bike have a side stand switch? I do not have a wiring diagram for your exact bike but I think an 86 USA XT600 may be about the same.

Let me know about the side stand switch or not and we can go from there.

Steve

Yes switches have to be checked, next is coil.

Nope, no side stand switch.
There is a kill switch, but since the electric starter runs I presume it is ok.

The bike have both electric starter and kick start

Mezo, do you know if that model has the side stand switch? For the bike to just quit running with no spark does not sound like a CDI, but could be a coil as you say or a wire pulled loose or corroded connection that gave up.

I agree that it sounds like a wire or similar since it just happened like that. I have checked the wiring and I can't find any lose ends.
But next step would be measuring.
I know tha the coil could be measured by measuring th ohm, but I don't have the specs.

What if I measure orange wire to the coil and earth/black wire while running the starter or kicking. What reading would I get there ?

On my 3TB on coil test its Primary 3,4-4,6, secondary 10,4-15,6kohm

If you have a volt meter, set it for AC volts and about 100 volt scale. This is hard to get a definitive reading since it is a pulse, however, you should see a voltage kick of some substance. If measured and viewed on an oscilloscope you should see a 170 volt pulse or so.

Measuring the ohms of the stator coils is a good thing too. When measuring ohms disconnect all wires to the device being measured.

The CDI charge coils in the stator outputs on the red and brown wire. Put your volt meter on AC voltage and about 20 volt range. Kick and observe the voltage. You should see a good kick in voltage.

You can check the trigger coils too, there are two of them.
Colors are white/Red and green white/green and green. You should see a good voltage kick.

If everything test ok with ohms and voltage kicks then it is probably a coil or the CDI.

I would suspect a wire pulled apart or shorted, then maybe the coil for it to be a sudden shutdown. Stator or cdi should have intermittent issues or problems leading up to shutdown. I'd check the wires going to the pulse coil to see if there is juice there first, then after it, ect... Start from the source then work back to find where the juice stops.

Hi again,
Done some measuring now and this is the result:

Coil seams to be inside spec.

Brown between Red 160 ohm and approx 27 V when running starter

Trigger measurement:
Green between Red/white 117 ohm
Green between Green/white 117 ohm

Green/white between Red/white 232 ohm

No voltage in any combination

And as you could expect, no voltage in the orange wire to the coil.

Sounds like the trigger to me, or any other suggestions ?

a long shot but, your bike is only 2 years younger than my 43f xt 600, so its 28 years old.
Yamaha never designed these things to last nearly 30 years, I had a bunch of weird stuff going on with the electrics a year ago, finally traced it to insulation breaking down and wires shorting in the loom as it leaves the frame area and goes around the headstock, this gets constant movement and with a circa 30 year old loom its rather innevitable that there could be problems.
Just carefully strip the plastic tape back in that area and have a look. I lost left side indicators, horn and kill switch functions during that fun episode. I just soldered the wires back and put electrical shrink sleeves over the soldered repairs. Been fine for 12 months now

Good luck

I've seen broken wires there too.

Good that you can measure the coil resistance indicating a good electrical connection. I assume you attempted AC voltage measurements with the leads disconnected as in Ohm readings?

I know it is messy but take off the stator cover and look at the trigger coils to see if they came loose and maybe too far from the rotor magnets to induce voltage into them. If they came loose then that would explain the sudden stop. Like Jim said, a faulty CDI usually complains before failure.

Not likely but the magnets could have come off too, however, there are two of them so probably not both came off. Just giving you something to check for.

Check the gap between the magnets and the trigger coil. I don't know the gap specs but something like a business card thickness would be a good guess.

Steve

Yep, wires do come loose sometimes, I have had some wire issues as well. But this smells a bit different.
The voltage measuremnt was peformed in AC setting.

Yes I do realise I have to take off the stator cover and have a look inside.

Not designed to last for 30 years ? Hahaha. Even if they were not meant to last for 30 years, they do. They are bullet proof simple machines which runs and runs.
This is my go to work bike specially purchased for that. It doesnt matter if it rains or snows on it. It usually runs quite good. Even though the starter only manage to fire it up during summer.
I bought it some years ago and God knows what the the other owners have done to it. I managed to get everything working and so far it has just ran and ran, from the snow melts away in March/April until it starts snowing again in Dec.
I have changed some stuff like handle controls, speedometer and some wiring which was poor due to age or poor workmanship. But no major issues.

I plan to run it for many years more, just to see how long it would last.

Very interested in what you find. Let us know. Yes indeed these bikes are tough.

Why stop just because it starts snowing ?

[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640...0/812/7eln.jpg[/IMG]

Haha, true.
But the main reason to stop when it snows is because of other vehicles on the road. Even if I manage to stay on two wheels there are some vehicles with 4 wheels which have some difficulties to come to a halt when they should, or stay in lane...
But I might get myself an extra pair of wheels with spikes just for the fun of it and use it on lakes or offroad where there are no other traffic.

The main reason I don't ride in the snow (anymore) is I have become a fair weather biker, too hot or too cold, not for me (anymore)... I like my creature comforts too much I guess. I've put in my share of cold and hot rides though. I'm gettin' too old for the really rough stuff...:(

I never stop riding, winter is fun and special!!! Use spikes, with screws you never know when they are gone...I ride Trelleborg, but why are we talking winter in summertime:nono: Enjoy summer:thumbup1:

http://s17.postimg.org/3thzgxmvj/DSC_0597.jpg
foto hochladen

I agree Xtrock, lets enjoy the summer.
By the way I'm going to Geiranger, Trollstigen and Atlanthavsvejen in August. Not by XT but with my Virago. Hopefully there will not be that much of rain during the trip.

A pic from Nov 2010. Guess what is under the pyjamas. Yep, the blue one. That is how it spends the winter. The other one is on its way to the garage.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...1&d=1405107300

Oh thats a extreme nice trip, they had a nice summer so far. But when it rains its not for a day...hope sun stays with you:thumbup1:

Hi again,

Seems like the bike has been involved in some serious breakdown in its earlier life.
One of the bolts that is holding the pick up is broken and it looks like they have tried to drill it out but failed.
The pick up seems to be pretty solid with just one bolt anyway so it is not like it is rattling around.
It seems like the distance is not possible to adjust anyway because the holes in the pick up are punched and they fit very tight in the holes in the cover.
I will try to drill out the bolt and make new threads.

I did some more measuring of the pick up itself, which I'm not so sure if it tells anything. But here it comes.

Measuring between the two pickups= 11 kohm
Measuring between upper pick up and ground= 6,5 kohm
Measuring between lower pick up and ground= 4.5 kohm

Red/white to ground= nothing
Green/white to ground= nothing
Green to ground= nothing

No connectivity to ground via the wires.

Any suggestions where to find a pick up ?

Have you measured between the wires of the pickup. They are connected to ground in any way, in fact if you did measure between any wire and would indicated a short.

Measure between all combinations of the 3 wires. White/Red to green 110 ohms, White/Green to Green 110 ohms, White/Green to White/Red 220 ohms.

Oh, I looked back and see you measured this already 110 117 ohms, not exact. Look for broken wires on the coils.

Hi Steve,
Nope, no loose wires to be seen.
Did some new measuring with another Multimeter
Brown between Red 158 ohm

Trigger measurement:
Green between Red/white 117,3 ohm
Green between Green/white 116,5 ohm

Green/white between Red/white 232 ohm
Measuring between the two pickups= 9,87 kohm
Measuring between upper pick up and ground= 5,64 kohm
Measuring between lower pick up and ground= 3,92 kohm

What I don’t understand is why there is no reading between wire and pick up itself, in my simple world it should be. And why is there connectivity to ground from the pickups ?
You don’t need to give the full explanation, just tell me if this is OK.

I do have a different color scheme but what I have discovered is following.
Green = my black/yellow
Red/white = my blue/yellow
Green/white= my Green/white

I have discovered following (I stick to your color scheme) Red/white is somehow in connection to lower pick up and Green/white to upper pick up.
I discovered that with following test:
Measure between Red/white and Green and move a hammer over lower pick up the ohm fluctuate between 117 and 125 ohm.

Measure Green/white and green, move the hammer over the upper pickup and the reading will fluctuate between 116 and 122 ohm.

Does this give you any idea ? To me it indicates that there are some life in the coils and magnets. But maybe the readings should be different.

Tried to search for another pickup on the net but it seems not to be that very common. Any ideas where any spare one could be found.

Just from my experience the pick up and CDI both are fairly reliable and not usually what's wrong. In the past I've put an oscilloscope on the pick up coil to look at the waveform but it's tiny, I don't think you'll measure anything worthwhile with a multimeter other than its resistance. I'm fairly sure the CDI needs a good earth on one of the pins, can't remember which one. If it's not present you'll not get a spark.
It's a long shot but I remember once having a plug cap with a very high resistance. If it's like mine you can unscrew the brass clip that attaches to the spark plug from inside the cap to reveal the resistor, clean it up with emery and reassemble. You'll find the resistance back to where it should be.
Sorry can't be of much more help, but like one of the other guys I too have had many broken and bad connections over the years to the point where I tore off the loom and made up a new one myself.

Your measurements are correct, the coils are isolated from any ground connection. The metal part of the coils is how the magnetic fields are fed into the coils. Magnetic fields crossing coils induces voltage. The voltage generated is AC (Alternating current) and IS measureable with an AC voltmeter. I've done it. It is not very important what you read as long as you see the meter Kick, I expect you will see the voltage as the coils are working.

If you can borrow a coil and a CDI unit you can see which one is bad. I suspect the CDI unit. I've had two of them bad and all the ohms and voltage kicks checked out like yours. Both of my CDI's were bad. 30 years is a long time and they are dying all over the place.

If you want suggestions for a replacement CDI, just ask, just DO NOT BUY a used one on eBay. Why buy another that is old, they go bad due to age, not miles.

Steve