First pass I read that as "Marginally more practical for overtaking"...........I guess it is though

Thats what the people often wrote. I dont believe that it is true.

I took the newst available Land Cruiser and drove through africa without problems.

And we meet modern Land Cruisers all over in africa. Not many, but they are there. A Land Cruiser is still a Land Cruiser....

Surfy

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About Overlanding, Travelogues, Equipment
Trans-Africa over the west coast

its all about driver when taking 4wd in cnsideratin, just use one as simple as possible ,like defenders and fj40 etc

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Hi there! My first post here on HUBB

I'm going to need more info about just what kind of terrain (you said big rocks?) and distances between legs before I can make an educated suggestion. If I had the liberty to choose, I would bring an older diesel Land Cruiser with a manual transmission. They are tough, comfy enough to sleep in, the technology is pleasantly old fashioned, most competent repair shops can repair minor breakdowns, if ever any, and the older ones are lighter than the newer ones. The newer 80-series onward TLCs are still VERY capable, very comfy, but unfortunately, getting more and more obese with each newer iteration. Mileage isn't too great either. I made a test run driving from Jakarta to Bangkok, ~8000 Kms round trip, on a turbodiesel 80 series TLC, and managed only 9 Km/L on smooth roads, travelling very very light (myself and co-driver, two medium duffel bags + 2 day packs, all daily needs bought on the road as needed).

If I had to do the exact same trip again, I would pick my 2.4L diesel powered jeep CJ-7. Its got much much better mileage (~15-17 Km/L), Isuzu C240 engine is used world over for generators, pumps, fishing boats, and forklifts, equally capable off road, still large enough to carry all our needs, has a cold A/C, and leaves a big room for a second vehicle in a 40-foot container. The only drawback is that the jeep is SLOW, as in cruising speed of 75 Km/h on highways. But I can live with that.

If you plan on driving OVER (not around) big rocks, away from familiar territory, I think it's a bad idea. But if you really have to, then I would suggest at least a 2.5" lift (measure the top of the car, make sure it doesn't go over 2.3m. That's how high the inside of a shipping container is), larger tires suitable for the need, skid plates, roll cage, and a rear ARB diff locker. Use all terrain tires whenever you can because they last longer on long drives than mud tires, and they get you a better mileage.

Whatever the car you choose, make sure you spend time to test and familiarize yourself with the car. Then modify it to suit your needs, then test it again before you go. The idea is to keep you from pushing into situations where your car can't handle anymore resulting in a breakdown, hundreds of Kms from a mechanic. If the car does break, with luck, you will only break simple things like driveshaft U-joints, which can be replaced yourself on site. Learn how to do simple repairs and carry appropriate tools.

Oh, and good luck

OP - ask yourself this
What is the most capable off road motorcycle?

How many answers would you expect from this ... ?

--------------------
You'll need to say what you intend doing with it, where, and how much money... for a start.

If you only want local type trips then ask the local 4WDs ...

I must be mistaken then, because I could have sworn my 2012 Hilux has electric windows, skid control, abs, electronic traction control electronic fuel metering, electronic fuel injection, electronic throttle. In fact electronic everything. It also has dire warnings in the manual about running on anything except low sulphur diesel.

My 1989 LC on the other hand would still run if you just pee'd in the tank, as long as you had drunk enough, appears to have virtually no electronics (except lights and stuff) except the electric windows, which failed in Africa and have now been replace with good old winders!

I can also assure you that the 'hewn from granite' feeling of the LC is not replicated in the Hilux. They are no longer built in japan from parts from the Hino truck division, Now they are more like cars and since construction moved elswhere in the world it is generally accepted that quality has dropped.

However, at the end of the day, the Hilux is still a Toyota and probably pretty reliable, but, the point is, if it does breakdown (which hapilly yours didn't, but if it did) and your out in the boonies your stuffed. No bush mechanic will know what to do with it and unless you are a skilled vehicle technician (and maybe even if you are) your chances of a DIY bodge are pretty minimal.

comparisson with Africa spec Toyotas is pointless. One of the reasons for Toyotas success is they vary the vehicle to the market. Unencumbered by ever more draconina emissions regs African spec vehiclas are a much simpler beast than european Spec ones.

The 80 series LC is probably the newest Toyota I would consider taking on a serious expedition, and even that has a few too many gadgets for my liking!!

I just want to point to a simple "probability calculation".

Depending on your driving style is the percentage that you will get a mechanical issue low or high.

That your car electric will let you got stuck in the middle of nowhere - yes that can happen.

To a much higer percentage you may end as hostage, got killed during a attack, or die in an accident during your trip.

If you want to add the risk of an electroic failure to your overall calculation - that is up to you...

Surfy

__________________
About Overlanding, Travelogues, Equipment
Trans-Africa over the west coast

I think you are missing the point with this reply and the next one

People advise against too much electronics because thats the common sense approach. For an overland vehicle you want something simple reliable and easy to fix as Moggy advised the OP.

Fine you may have made a transafrica trip in a modern LC without problems but if one of the electronics system had failed you would have found it very hard to get repaired most countries.

oop, reality check needed

vehicle breakdown, err yep, had a few of those. check
vehicle breakdown on vehicle less than 10 years old err yep check
vehicle breakdown in older vehicle on expedition that I fixed myself er yep check
vehicle breakdown on modern vehicle on normal roads without the additional duress of driving in an arduous environment that I couldn't fix myself and needed breakdown recovery, err yep check
taken hostage, err, nope
died in an accident err nope
killed in an attack, err nope

get a grip man!!

Budget no limit then a LC is a very capable vehicle.

Especially when you consider that you can still buy the old 70 model brand new in Ghana.

But i would also consider what the Army use.

Their vehicles need to be tough, reliable and able to get where they need to go.

We never once got stuck when in Ghana whilst traversing some iffy road surfaces.

Vehicles we travelled in ranged from a BMW X5 4.4, Toyota Hi Lux double cab, Ssanyong Rexton, Toyota Camry, Kia Pride Estate, Hyundai Accent hatchback and a Suzuki Vitara (XL7 i think)

We only got "beached" once, though under-carriage scraping was fairly regular in the Camry.

There are also a greater number of Freelanders in that part of Africa than i expected, going by the dealer stickers etc still evident in the windows an awful lot of them are UK rhd ones that have been converted to lhd.

I will admit having a soft soft for any LR product with a version of the Rover V8 in it. Must be a throwback to when i drove the V8 Ambulances in London.

The army use landrovers for purely political reasons. They very nearly didn't get the WMK (Wolf) contract because of the appalling reliability and service support of the previous 90 and 110 models. Only political intervention secured the contract. You may notice that very few armies from other countries use landrovers.

The British Army is also I believe moving away from landrover when the wolf fleet is replaced.

Toyota, on the other hand, is the vehicle of choice of NGOs, insurgents Guerrillas and rag tag armies the world over. People who bear allegiance to no manufacturer, but just want a solid and reliable truck.

The only other mainstream 4x4 that comes close IMHO is the G wagon. I have never owned or driven one but they have a good spec on paper, legendary reliability, are driven by many armed forces and is Tom Shepherds vehicle of choice.

if your overlanding in the Americas and using your rig as a daily driver
when home ,I would go with a Tacoma, or tundra
if your talking Africa a troopie would be the ultimate for me followed by the
70 series lastly a older hi-lux.
check out the builds on the expedition portal
good luck
kp

Just how I work out the risk of travel.

A vehicle break down is just one of the many risks, I would say a car crash travelling the 1000 odd miles it takes me to get anywhere interesting, is my highest risk of coming to harm.

The main question I ask myself (I take my children)

Are we going to die if we break down and the answer is highly unlikely for the places I travel around, someone will come along, so the risk is purely financial, so I just work out the likely cost of recovery.

I'm not sure where people are travelling where the risks of a breakdown warrants getting all hot and bothered about a few modern electronic's?

Nice to hear from someone who has taken a modern Toyota on an extended trip Surfy

Another observation , its not so much the reliability of electronics, as opposed to the diminished reliability of an older style vehicle, just the level of sophisticated tools needed to diagnose or rectify in less technically advanced areas. The risk following breakdown can be counteracted eg satphone /money. Another factor is fuel quality required by recent emission level driven vehicle specs , some of which can be counteracted prior to trip eg unimog needing software modification for 3rd world travel .
As to where people travel with concern about electronics , I have travelled in outback australia with vehicles at both ends of the spectrum , but as mentioned earlier the hot and bothered bit can be avoided by taking steps to deal with eventualities if the need should arise, where it can be a concern is if the travel is being done with limited resources self reliance is a lot cheaper , and therefore less of a worry . JMHO

Interesting point of view Moggy.

I didn't actually mention the British Army but did mention that i had a soft spot for LR products.

Funnily enough when LAS went from LDV Convoy V8 ambulances to the Sprinters there was actually an increase in breakdowns.

The LDV's were considered unreliable by some. Until the Sprinters costing twice as much showed that most breakdowns were caused by 24/7 usage in dense traffic.

The simple LDV could be fixed with a hammer and gaffer tape the Sprinters could not.

The retired LDV's are now in Cuba and Mongolia still being used.

The ones in Cuba have been there for over 10 yrs now and were over 10 yrs old when they were donated.

My point about considering what the Army use is that they need vehicles that are simple to fix without the need for a workshop and diagnostic equipment.