Fuel is not water. Petrol is 0.7 kgs per litre ... 24 litres of fuel = 17 kgs

Yes this basically BMW saying what I said ... that apart from the extra 8 litres of fuel its much the same bike. It has new plastic panels (bodywork) - well it has to since it has different fuel tanks - and it has the same frame ... It does mention that it has a strengthened subframe, but to be honest I never heard of a problem with the stock F800 subframe so it hardly a noteable improvement ... certainly not one worth commenting on. In any case that comment you posted said the strengthening in the rear subframe is also just necessary because of the larger tank. So the new plastics and the improved subframe are just related to the bigger thank. Sorry but I dont see anything there worth commenting on other than the extra 8 litres of fuel - which it goes without saying is a useful addition. Apart from that its an F800GS ...nothing more.

If you sell an adventure bike that has components that are less than adventure worthy - surely the responsible thing for to do on a forum of adventure bikers, many with limited or no experience and, and many not knowing too much about what are strengths and weaknesses of certain bikes, (which is why they are here trying to get opinions of experienced people) surely the responsible thing for those experienced people to do is to pass on what are the strengths and weaknesses of bikes people ask for opinions about.?

Some of the rims in question were stock rims ... some were aftermarket rims. I dont think thats in any way a relevant question. The question is if someone is thinking of buying a particular bike , surely they also want to know the bikes weakpoints before they go off to remote places with it?

I would certainly hope they do!

The point is BMW could have built the bike with better rims. They didnt. And if you want to do anything more challenging than asphalt and light occasional gravel roads, then be aware that you may be well advised to change the rims.

For the record, the F800 rim was swapped out to a stock steel rim from an unused XTZ660 Tenere in Yakutsk, in Northern Siberia that we happened to stumble across. After that, if gave no further problems. Other stock rims that only took about 25-30% of the damage were stock BMW X-Challenge rims. Other rims that took no damage from the same conditions were an aftermarket Excel A60 rim and a stock Excel signature rim on a stock KTM wheel.


Well surely thats a question for the individual rider?

Your approach seems to be to pick a bike first, then decided its not capable of off road so you wont go there.

What if someone actually did want to go offroad a lot, and still wanted an opinion of a particular heavy adventure bike? Surely thats a possibility.

"How much off road do you have to do?" you ask! Have to do? Well you dont HAVE to do any. You can go from Europe to Cape Town on about 98% asphalt. You can go from Europe to Vladivostok on all asphalt. To can go from Alaska to Ushuaia on 98% asphalt ... ... if your version of adventuring is sticking to the main highways. All of those routes have been ridden by people on 400 kg Honda Goldwings. So I can flip your question round and ask you do you have to have an adventure bike if thats all you want to do? You can do THAT on a sportsbike or a chopper for that matter. Why get an F800GS Adventure?

Off pavement riding is not only something to endure when you travel. For many of us, off road riding is the key to getting to interesting places. Getting away from truck stops, highways, radar police. For many of us you dont go to Mongolia to ENDURE the roads ... some of us actually LOVE the fact that so much of the country is off-road.

Personally I like to go off road almost all the way. So I dont take a heavy 200 kg bike and load it up with 50-60 kgs of luggage. I prefer a 145 kg bike with 25 kg of luggage. And I go away with it for 3-7 months at a time.

But in giving opinions of an adventure bike, surely assessing its off road capabilities is a key part of that process? Not everyone likes asphalt. If you want to ride on road all the time thats fine and you are welcome to read my opinions and say well the rims are a weak point but I am not planning to go off road so that fact doesnt bother me. Some people who read this thread might want to know others opinions of this bike cause they want to take a bike to Mongolia, or Magadan. And if they do want to go there and they have been thinking about this bike, they might want opinions linking the two ?

Dont you think?

I assume many people dont want to ride off road and just "get thru it", but I also know many people new to adventure riding do want to do some and do want a bike that will allow them to develop into that, and those people also want to know what the F800GS is like offroad. The rim in the pics came from a Norwegian guy who was new to riding (and off riding around the world) and simply assumed he needed a heavy adventure bike since thats the only thing that is promoted by manufacturers. By the time he was changing his front rim in Yakutsk he specifically commented that he wished he had this exact kind of advice earlier, before buying his F800GS.

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First of all - the bike is 229 kgs With full gas tank. End of discussion.

Secondly - my approach to this and that including this bike is something you dont know anything about. Please keep personal issues out of a discussion.

I appriciate Your thoughts about this bike and I have already thanked you for that.

You dont find the differences between the new adventure model and the "old" model 800 except the bigger fuel tank worth commenting. That kinda tells me where you stand. But of course you have the right to think and say so....

Strengths and weaknesses of bikes people ask for is surely important for experienced riders to comment upon and share thoughts about and I do register what you say about for example the rims of the BMW.
But to compare a lightweihgt bike like for example a KTM 690 - as you do - to a + 200 kg bike doesnt give the complete picture. If one place the same rims on a 150 kg bike and on a + 200 kg bike - sure the rims will take a lot more beating and come apart sooner on a + 200 kg bike.

It sure would be interesting to hear what bike you recommend for overlanding? And it sure could be interesting to hear more thoughts about this bike - also negative ones? Ok the rims arent of high class, any other negative sides with this bike?

The photos above are why I laugh when BMW position the F800GS with its spoked wheels as more offroad-capable than the F650GS with its alloys. I've seen as many total failures on BMW spoked wheels as I've seen on alloys, there's no point in having spoked wheels if the rims are made of chocolate.

I much prefer having a 21-in front wheel but I hate having tubes. What I'd really like to see with the F800GS and F800GS Adventure is tubeless spoked wheels. BMW did it with the HP2 and KTM does a tubeless 21/18 combination on the 1190 R.

I've moaned for a long time about the idiocy of BMW putting the close ratio gearbox from the F800S in an adventure bike; with six gears to choose from the ratios should be wider spread with both a lower first and a higher top.

As I do most of my biking outside the UK ideally the speedo should be digital so that it can be switched between MPH and KPH like most other bikes.

Above all, I don't particularly value the F800GS Adventure because I never found fuel capacity to be a limiting factor. In real world testing I got 271 miles out of the F650GS (pretty much the same bike as the F800GS). If I ever needed more than that I could bungy a plastic bottle to the luggage and tip in fuel after 100 miles or so.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

??? There are no personal issues in this discussion. I pointed out a fault with a bike you like and you got offended. Go back to your original post ... You asked for opinions !!!

Well you are welcome to tell me there is more than just a bigger fuel tank that IS REALLY worth commenting on .... but then you kinda have to say what that is and why its notably better ... right?

Well I think most people on here know enough about my bike and its history to prevent me going into in too much detail, since its really a matter of public record ... there are over 20 pages in this book on what I recommended (as of 2010) ...including a 14 page section on my bike, its setup and why.
Building the Ultimate Adventure Motorcycle: The Essential Guide to Preparing a Bike for the Journey of a Lifetime: Amazon.co.uk: Robert Wicks: Books

And then there is a section in here regarding my bike choice and why:
Adventure Motorcycling Handbook: A Route and Planning Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Scott: Books

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Well I havent tried any of those, but what is says in the link in the opening post is that the new model has better seat (not all of us want to stand all the time while riding a bike...), better windscreen, better rear frame.
And I dont know is ESA and ASC is options on the excisting model.....

You must have me excused so very much - but I really dont want to order and pay two books to have an idea of Your opinions about this issue....I have hoped for an easier option.....

Anyhow - a very few persons have the ability, the energy, the time, the knowledge and the economical option to build their own bike. Us others must buy a stock bike and - at best replace a few things and add a few others.

And what other negative parts on the new GS800 adventure except the rims did you mention?

ESA and ASC are indeed already options on the standard F800GS. I got around the highly uncomfortable standard seat by using an AirHawk (which I have been transferring from bike to bike), and bought an Eagle windscreen from Australia.


Admittedly the Eagle screen is nowhere near as cool as the one on the F800GS Adventure.

Better rear frame? The existing model is presumably built to handle a heavy rider and pillion and heavy luggage, so I'm not sure what's needed for a few more kilo of fuel.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Well I dont know if its easier for you (cause it means you might actually have to do some research), but here's a free option. You can read through 2000 posts and 120 something pages in this thread: RTW X-Challenge Adventurization - ADVrider

Its not only about "negative parts". An opinion of a machine is an opinion. It can be negative or positive. You are turning opinions of a paper machine into perceived personal insult. I think you need to remove yourself from a love affair with a machine that you clearly have not even seen yet. A machine is just a tool for a purpose. If the tool doesnt fit, it doesnt fit. If it doesnt meet a particular purpose, then why take it as an insult if some one points that out - after you specifically asked other people for opinions.

You have Tim Cullis here, probably alongside Chris Scott, the english speaking worlds most knowledgeable and experienced guy on Morocco, telling you he thinks the gearbox ratios are all wrong, and that he concurs that the rims are crap. If you are new to this, which I suspect you are, then you could do much worse than to listen to the words of wisdom from people who have been doing it for a long time, on a lot of different bikes, in a lot of different places, rather than just assuming you are an instant expert or that marketing people know what an adventure bike needs.

I have a truck load of experience in Siberia and Mongolia, probably more in Siberia than anyone else on the planet. I have done adventure riding across the developing world on everything from 115 kg bikes to 230 kgs 1200s and almost everything in between. I know what different bikes feel like, ride like and handle like when loaded up for travel and adventure in a huge variety of conditions. I am telling you the rims are crap, the bike is too heavy for what it is. I also said apart from that the bike is going to be solid but never spectacular.

If you dont want to hear it, then dont listen. But do us all a favour and dont ASK for other peoples opinions if you cant handle them.

Its not your first born son ... its a motorcycle ... a motorcycle that you haven't even seen yet. So dont take views of it that you disagree with as a personal insult.

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I've heard from several sources that the alloy was changed (2010?), but if it's true it's still might be just a minor upgrade. It has 36 spokes so it's easy and cheap to find another rim.

If I remember correctly the rim on the bike above had covered a pretty long and hard distance before it got trashed. Geir (XChallenge) also changed his front rim after the trip - I don't know why.
Maybe the standard rim is all you need, it depends on your luck and how you use the bike. On the other hand sturdy rims are cheap, I would have changed both rims. Suspension is a bigger issue...


BTW:
The increased range is nice!

The rim in the pics was from a bike bought new in Norway in early 2012 ... I believe. So if it was worse before 2010 then the first couple of years rims must have been terrible.

Yes he did a lot of miles on the rim before Siberia but it was all on asphalt apart from 500 km or so in Tajikistan - which was graded gravel roads.

Geir's X-Challenge rims suffered minor damage. As I mentioned above, they suffered damage, but a fraction of what the F800 rim suffered. Geir has since changed to an Excel rim (a) so that the bike is as good as new and (b) cause he wants to keep riding it and adventuring with it and felt that a quality front rim was a wise investment so that he never has to worry about it again.

At the end of the day, a good Excel rim is about 190 EUR retail! and the top of the range rim money can buy about 250 EUR. I dont want to even guess how low BMW could buy Excel rims at an OEM level, in bulk runs of thousands ... no more than 50 EUR thats for sure - probably 30 EUR. So maybe BMW save 20 EUR by putting crappy rims on the bike.

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When is this bike going into mass-production? Can i order it with tubeless tyres?

- Thanks for the two books you recommended. I just ordered them online.

- i'm having some off-road experience, two weeks Marocco and two months crossing West Afrika. Came from a suzuki v-strom 1000, changed it for a new yamaha tenere (2008) which was my first Marocco companion and is in Nigeria now (for sale there).
At home (Belgium), i'm riding a BMW GSA the whole year. No car anymore. Now i'm looking for a new lighter all-round bike, have seen the new F800GSA at the dealer few day's ago. Was thinking about changing my GS for it. Reading this topic i'm more heading to a X-Challenge now as a second bike in Belgium and once preparing for a RTW tour.

this also made me change my mind. Buying other rims is a peace of cake, other engine out of the question. :-)

But just curious, could you comment more on this?
It's kinda heavy for off-road, i know ( just saw this > youtube: F800GS trail adventure ) but so is my Yamaha Tenere, 'top-heavy' while the BWM's gravity center is lower due his lower located fuell-tank. But these are somewhere dual purpose bikes. And loaded with long-time-travel luggage on such bikes i would for sure avoid trail tracks anywhere as much as possible :-) Have done some day's on sand(y) tracks in West Afrika, whished i was on a bicycle those day's!

Given the 800's meager power (say in comparison to an 7-year old KTM ADV), it's woeful suspension components . . . it's pretty heavy "for what it is".

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Orange, it's the new black.

Yes I can comment more on the weight issue.

The dry weight of the outgoing standard R1200GS is 203 kgs.

The dry weight of the F800 Adventure is the same. Its supposed to be a lighter bike - a middle weight bike. It isnt. If 200 kgs is a big adventure bike then middle weight bikes should be 165-180 kgs dry. I cant see how anyone can consider a 229 kg wet weight bike (without luggage) anything but a big / heavy bike.

The problem is when you look closely at an F800, you struggle to find any evidence on the bike have BMW designers been weight conscious. If BMW had put a little effort into weight reduction the bike could easily be 25 -30 kgs lighter

Your Tenere 660 is also about 185 kg dry weight. As far as I am aware, its the heaviest single cylinder bike in the world. Possibly the heaviest single cylinder bike ever built. Again, Yamaha has made zero effort to reduce weight. That bike could be 40 kgs lighter.

Manufacturers make a lot of effort to reduce weight on track replica bikes, on MX bikes and on proper enduro bikes. But they dont make any effort on adventure bikes. And if the adventure bike buying public dont demand lighter adventure bikes, the manufacturers never will bother making any effort to reduce the weight of them.

In response to your debating of F800 vs X-challenge (144 kgs dry), I recommend you read these thoughts from a man who not only owns both, but has done proper off road adventuring on both the F800GS and the XC (each bike for at least 3 months across Siberia and Latin America) - With that experience of both bikes I know of no-one more qualified to give a balanced, objective comparison on real world adventuring on those two bikes:

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012

The same guy, in another post in an answer to a question about comparing the two as adventure bikes, wrote this:

Bear in mind he was referring to the F800GS ... the new F800Adventure is 15-20 kgs heavier again!

A further interesting observation related to weight from one of us HUBBers riding around the world on a KTM 690 (138 kgs dry) at the moment. He was last month in the stunning scenery of Tajikistan ...

ADVrider - View Single Post - RTW with Noah on a KTM 690

Why have a big bike if it will limit your trip?

To me this is one of the ultimate questions that I see people who are new to Adventure Motorcycling failing to ask themselves. Certainly there are some very skilled riders for whom a big bike will not limit their choice of routes. But they are a tiny minority in the world of adventure riders. For the rest (98%) of us mortals, we need to seriously consider weight.

You should not be limiting your adventure because of your choice of a heavy bike. If a person limits their adventure because of the weight of their bike, then the adventure itself was not their priority. Maybe image is? Maybe something else? (not that there is anything wrong with that)

My experience when it comes to bike selection, gear selection, tyre selection etc .... is you should plan for the toughest parts of your trip. If a guy is riding from London to Cameroon, across the Sahara, the experienced man will not select his bike, his tyres, his luggage as to what will work best on the motorways of Europe. If the hardest part of that planned trip is the dunes of the Sahara, then he needs his choices to first and foremost, be compatible with that. Any adventure bike for a given trip is a compromise. But the selection criteria you should compromise the least, are those required for the hardest parts of the trip. A wise choice is not an even compromise between all aspects of your trip, its a compromise heavily biased towards the hardest parts of your trip.

You should plan (and select gear) for the toughest parts of the adventure you want to have. Any bike, any luggage, any tyres can deal with the easy stuff ...

Here are more observations related to bike weight from another HUBB writer a few weeks ago in Mongolia:

Whats clear from those observations is that the amount of fun was totally connected to the weight of the bikes.

Here's another story from last year and Mongolia - written from the perspective of a different guy on a KTM 690 (138 kg dry):

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012

[edit] A new comment just in from UB, from another adventurer, whose 1200 GSA was too heavy for the job and ultimately arrived into the Mongolian capital on the back of a truck.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mongolia-71550

The reality is, as soon as you get off the asphalt, weight is a very very important issue. Lose 40 kgs and its a totally different experience, as the guy comparing his experiences between the F800 and the XC pointed out. The difference between suffering / enduring somewhere like Mongolia and enjoying it, is 40-50 kgs in bike weight.

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I kinda sorta fell asleep looking further through the postings whether we have now been blessed with wisdom for free. Now, have we?

Gotta go now and set up a paypal account to be paid for further sharing my golden words with you lot.
Cheers
Chris

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