I run a couple of Africa Twins, now quite dated, but still "fit for purpose". I've been looking at what bikes are around to suit me if I changed bikes now: having read this debate about BMW and from reading over a period of time, I must say that if I were about to buy a new bike to fit my needs it would be the GS 1150. There's no getting away from it. I'd have one now: but while the ATs meet my needs I'll stick with them, notwithstanding fuel pump and regulator/rectifier problems which are well known but fixable. No-one thinks GSs are perfect either. I dont.

Reviewers (all of whom I treat with caution, however) over the years have described the GS 1150 as one of the greatest all rounders ever. Thats my kind of bike. So I look at these bikes and chat to owners. Yes, they have faults - as all bikes do. What has to be decided is -are the problems mentioned here only from a small batch of machines or are these problems typical?

Mollydog mentions sources about BMW/reliability which he cannot name - so that's not too useful. Anecdotal evidence which he offers instead is interesting, but ultimately unreliable, I'm afraid. He must also deal effectively with the allegation of being biased against BMW and not being objective. I can't know if this is true or not and have no opinion on this.

And the trouble with forums is that usually riders only post if there's a problem - not if things are OK, which can distort the overall picture. As Margus says -bad news is the first to be reported. And it's hard to get manufacturers to own up: Honda still asserts that there is no fuel pump problem on ATs, for example.

Stu,
You may have the Tuesday morning bike; they build them in the way described in "scene 1", every day of the week - it is nothing personal on the part of BMW but commercial "sense".
No doubt they are not the only ones who construct bikes using the cheapest labour that can be resourced
Most of the time it works out OK and the bikes perform to the satisfaction of the customer (it is a % game). In part this maybe because lots of these bikes are not actually doing what they were intended for; some are, some are not, but many of them are cruising the highways and byways of the UK and never see either dirt or high mileages - traded in every two years for that "warm and comfortable feeling" - nothing wrong with that, just my observation of a whole batch of guys I meet who ride BMWs.

For those bikes which don't shape up, the fall-back position is the good warranty service which keeps the customer happy overall and contributes to the reputation for reliability.

I was riding again all day yesterday to multiple destinations, meeting up with owners of 1200GSs, among many others, and that's the concensus that I detect in all of those I see on the roads of the UK - first question for discussion yesterday was "have you got the '04 model?"

Those with Jap and other bikes sit around, drink coffee, shoot the sh*t and enjoy the sunshine; Beemer owners talk about their bikes.

You might want to look at
UKGSer* ::::* For BMW GS Enthusiasts
This is a big discussion area in the UK for these bikes (but nothing yet about the F800GS!!).

Cheers,

__________________
Dave

Hello Stu. I've been speed-reeding through this post (Margus and the Dog are getting old already ) so i'm not sure if this has been mentioned already. First off, if you are leaking oil through either the input or output seal, the evidence will show on the seam connecting the motor to the transmition on the right side. A slow leak will show as black grease along the seam, where a full-blown leak will show dirty oil leaking in this same spot. This leak can also be caused by a leaking clutch slave cylinder. This problem is very common with the '05 model. I've never heard of shafts breaking! Clutches slip due to contamination, but they also slip from the hand guard being knocked up or down slightly engaging the clutch. If you have no oil issues and a slipping clutch, check that first. I removed the ball from my clutch to prevent this from happening. Warping rotors has been plaguing the new GS since about '06, with some people getting up to three replacements! There has been lots of argument ranging from ABS problems to improper break-in procedure of the pads.
I own an '05 1200GS which had 40k kilometers. I bought it used with 31k on the odometer. I have already had all the aformentioned seals and the entire clutch assembly replaced under warranty. I have just arrived in Mexico and the seals are leaking again. I have 4 months warrenty left and i'm riding it like i stole it before it goes to BMW Mexico to get repaired. If it leaks again, i'll do the job myself next time. I also own an '89 R100GS, and although i like the ride of the new 1200, the old airhead is by far the more reliable and practical machine for travelling. If i ever buy another BMW, it will be an Airhead, it seems the new models have become a hit and miss shooting match and the game isn't fun anymore

Mr Ron,
I know every time you take your EWS key out you now wonder "Will it start ?"
Every time you stop you go look at the rear drive to see if oil is leaking out.

Get you airhead back. Use the money from selling the R1200GS to buy spare parts for your R100GS.

John

Thanks Guys, you make sense. Air head, oil head, that is the question...

I have invested more money than my wife would consider "practical" and you guys are saying "go back to an air head?" Where the hell has technology gone in the last decade?

Really, all I want is to go to the NWT... snap a mess of pics, grab a great story and ride home. Without being eaten by a bear. Do you not think that the 07 R1200 GS Adv.. can do that? Oh my.

I don't give a crap about some Turk smacking bearings. I bought a RTW machine at a premium price damn it. I should be at least able to ride it without a niggling doubt about clutches, shafts and seals. This is really starting to grind me. Maybe I should have bought a Ural.Or a Ford.

Sheesh.

__________________
Ride Safe...Stu

Hey Stu,

Sorry to hear that your bike isn't performing up to expectations. In general, when matching any bike to the owner and the ride you are planning, the equation for each bike is something along the lines of:

Bike Reliability + Warranty Coverage + Dealer Support = Total Package

As stated, the older BMW models didn't need much warranty coverage because they were so reliable. The newer ones do, and that is likely not too big of a deal for most because the vast majority of these bikes sold in North America are never too far from a dealer. If they get finicky, you ride/cart them in and they get fixed.

For your ride, it is a bit more of problem because the dealer support outside of Yellowknife is going to be pretty slim. If you need to find a 144" track for your Ski-Doo Summit you are in the right neighborhood, if you need to hook up to a computer to diagnose the problem, things will be a bit tougher. (P.S. Go for the 162" track, the flotation is way better in the deep powder)

But do keep it in perspective. As we speak, some dude is in Africa or South America riding this very same bike and for him, the nearest dealer is likely very far and most parts are a time consuming, very expensive DHL and customs experiment away. If you get in jam in NWT, you can actually phone someone, a lot of things can be fixed by some guy who at least speaks the same language and most parts can be sent by Greyhound courier and you'll have them in 2-3 days from Edmonton. Catastrophic failure? Well, at least your CAA membership will come in handy for the tow. For the guy in Africa or S. America, he has to negotiate with the only owner of a truck in the nearby village who thinks you are a billionaire because our helmet is worth more than what most people make in a year.

I totally agree with your point though, I would expect that these bikes are close to 100% reliable and ready for everything because they are marketed in that manner and very importantly we are paying a premium which makes our expectations go up.

Overall Bike Expectations = Purchase Price


However, ask any KLR owner why they like them so much and a big part is because they are such good value.

Total Package (Reliability + Warranty + Dealer) = Overall Bike Satisfaction
Purchase Price

For bikes with a high purchase price, they had better provide a darn good total package.

But, IMHO this is where the divergence happens, they are selling us the entire BMW package, and for a RTW trip, I am only looking to buy one component - reliability. The rest of the stuff adds little or no value. For reliability alone, there are better bikes in the BMW stable and many, many outside of it.

How’s that for a digression? Having said that, in the end, your bike will be perfectly fine, have an awesome trip, and enjoy the ride. If you are in B.C. drop me a line. I’d be happy to help with places to stay, shops to work on your bike and sites to see in all four corners of the province.

Oh Stu! Dont read too much into this. Just get the bike fixed and ride it the way it was meant to be ridden. If it breaks again, you might have enough amunition to just get a whole new bike, its happened before. Squeaky wheel gets the grease! If you think it will break, it will...trust me! I ran into a friend Chris in Creel the other day and he told me a storey. Some guy from Texas had a new GSA and rode it to Creel. He discovered the slightest leak from the final drive seal, barely enough for the dust to stick to. He loaded the bike on a truck and shipped it back to Texas! Dont be the Texan Stu! Ride the bike, ride it hard! Ride it like you stole it! Its a really fun bike, and the motor rocks! I think im gonna keep mine because the grin factor is so strong!
Hello John. Sorry i didn´t contact you in Reno. I arrived late and had an important deadline to make, did a lot of nights on this trip. Im gonna keep the airhead, nobody wants to pay me what its worth. Planning to ride it back to Mexico from Colombia in November- My brake rotors are good, and the EWS issue is with 06 and up. If mine hasnt broke yet, i think its okay. I have a feeling the kid who fixed my bike last time was a little wet behind the ears. Truth is, i hate other people working on my bike! Only because of warranty will i allow this, maybe the techs in Mexico will get it right.
Ride your damn bike Stu!! Get it fixed and stop worrying.

Ron, If you ned work done on your bike in Mexico DON'T go to BMW Lerma (who are the official importers) take it to BMW Motohaus on Avenida Pacifico, In Mexico City. Trust me the guys in Lerma are really bad and a big part of the reason why I now ride a V-Strom
Garry

Thanx Garry. I'm actually moving to DF. I'll arrive tomorrow. I'll contact you when i get settled.
Stu! Enjoy your trip Man!!

[QUOTE=Stu Seaton;155052] I suppose low end torque is the same as high end torque depending on how it's measured. Low end torque could be manifested by a perfect wheelie, unfortunately my high end torque is measured in clutch slip these days. QUOTE]
I think the main difference between the two is that the one is short lived and the other happen over a much longer duration.
With the wheelie there might be some slip but unnoticeable, and while at high speed the slip will first be unnoticeable at first but as this slip starts to heat up the clutch the slipping will become worse to the extent that you will realise something is wrong. My experience of clutch slip on a bike has been the same, at about 110km and accelerating hard the bike will suddenly pick up revs into the red-line but the speedo is still hanging around the 110km/h mark. But at low speeds or pulling away under hard acceleration the clutch seemed to be fine.
One more thing, if I know that a dealer wheelies my bike I will never go back there again.

Gents: I have been informed that my Teutoic Tin is ready for pick up, all is fixed at no charge. God bless BMW warranty and one fine technician, regardless of wheelies (besides, I know this bloke and if he pops a wheelie on my bike I'd go "cool, do it again, but show me this time").
I know I bluster about the GS RTW ability, (Margus) and I still have serious questions about design, factory and reliability issues... but as far as I can see BMW warranty is bar none the best in the world. Maybe I need to offset my chagrin of reliabilty issues with the warranty that backs up the advertisments.
Now, I can look forward, next stop is Inuvik, North West Territories. Will I end up as bear skat on the Dempster, or shall I pop a cork upon my return in Toronto? Bets anyone? The GS 1200 Adventure is probably the nicest bike I have EVER ridden. Now let's see if the next 21,000 K offer worry free riding full of exploration and roads less (seldom) travelled.
Our lifestyle is the best in the world, isn't it?

__________________
Ride Safe...Stu

When I hit my fav Province I will call, you can buy the ... I'll get the steaks.

__________________
Ride Safe...Stu

That is the most sensible thing I have seen on this thread.

You can't really rely on Mollydogs assertions because he contradicts himself so much.. On the one hand complaining BMW owners change their bikes every three years to stay in warranty, yet... he also states he has had over 40 japanese bikes... I suspect if he had to live with them for a good while his opinions might change.

I am on my fourth road bike since 1961, the first three I loved and were all Meriden Triumphs. My current ride a 1985 BMW r80rt has never let me down, but I do not love it. Heavy, high centre of gravity, high seat height and worse, gearchange on the wrong side. My next bike will either be a Meriden Triumph, or Enfield. I can fix anything on these bikes.

the story was that Triumphs were eccentric and troublesome and you had to buy german or japanese if you wanted reliability. It seems to me that this was mostly the result of superior marketing and propaganda from japan in the richer markets. It suited dealers and mechanics that british bikes had a bad reputation, because it excused them the consequences of their own sloppy work.

Truth is any bike you buy, new or secondhad it is an unknown quantity. The more 'modern' and by that I mean more complicated the more opportunity there is for it to fail. They are not all the same despite the hype. Every bike is different.

Gents: I have come to the conclusion that anything that has two or more moving parts will crap out, eventually. Regardless of adverts one needs to take the whole package into consideration. I was bellyaching about things that should not happen with a premium machine ei:the R1200GS Adventure... When I look at the whole service issue, aside from lumpy front rotors, it all comes down to the original problem of a broken input shaft and some seal damage. Eventually the clutch bit the bullet because of a gear oil bath on a dry clutch. Not a winning combination. HOWEVER... BMW fixed the problem, including the lumpy rotors. Anyone can speculate on what would happen if... The long and the short is that I had a problem, right or wrong, and BMW warranty made it right. To me that's the cornerstone of product security. Not only that but I have new rotors and a machine that runs like a charm.
I live in the world of product technology and every once in a while you get a problem that is unexpected. If it is fixed with no questions then ce la vie. Go ride and smile. Jap, German, American or Brit. It doesn't matter, if the machine you ride is the one you like then it's the best in the world. I'm a happy camper. Bravo BMW.

__________________
Ride Safe...Stu

Hear! Hear!

Bravo!

Oncore!

__________________
R.n.B. Caves Beach, NSW.

Live life to the MAX!! "one knows that one can, if one wants too".