Yes, exactly That is the hard part .. and why I remove internal built in armor from my jacket and wear separate pieces. It's what I did for years riding/racing dirt bikes, desert racing/riding. (elbow guards, back/chest protector) I have never liked built in armor as it's not close fitting, moves around in a fall.

I've been using a Shoei flip (Multi-Tech) 5 years now. It's worn out so I need something new. I like the Hornet but like the quietness of a flip up and don't like googles for long road rides. I'll probably go with the Shoei Neo tech or use my never used HJC Sy-Max ll (a good hot weather helmet). I can flip it up and use sunglasses (but no face protection in this mode but a lot of air flow)

work on taking less and hit op shops, if you require anything else cheers

I disagree. I always cater for the hottest temps and layer up for cold. The klim full mesh jacket was great at a 100.
A windproof puffer jacket under with merino base layer and a rain jacket over is typically enough in the cold. Bring winter gloves though. Have heated grips and a wind deflector like the giant loop one (or milk bottles) is a must. And a windproof buff.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

Umpteen years ago, riding during a heat wave in France (which killed off thousands of the French geriatrics to the point where the bodies were stacked in refrigerated trucks until the morgues could cope again -- ) I soaked the inside of my helmet in water overnight.
Riding the next day, the gradual evaporation from the helmet internals cooled my head and was much more pleasant than the earlier riding experience.
By the end of that day of riding the helmet was just about dry inside = rinse and repeat until the weather changed.
(the "pith helmet" is the source of that idea, for me).

I can't see this product on sale in the UK at present.
Can you fit layers under it OK?

The layered principle is well proven across all forms of outdoor activity.
I tend to practice the principle by adding outer layers if only because that is much easier to do when wearing riding gear.

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Dave

A fit of a jacket is very personal. But I don't have any issues with it. I wear a merino t-shirt anyway, hot or cold. So all I would need is a puffer jacket.
The rain jacket goes over top. Although, the induction comes with a really nice and thin rain/wind liner. Supposedly it can go over or under. I think under it probably easier. Anyway. I've had a tourmaster mesh jacket, and the klim is way better on venting. So not all mesh it the same.
In Patagonia I also had heated pads in my jacket. Sewn pockets for the pads into my softshell. I now use a puffer jacket but it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate that for the freezing temps. Making a vest out of webbing or something. Or just increase layers. Technology has advanced a fair bit on insulation wear.

I find keeping the hands, and to a lesser degree feet, warm key for overall warmth. The common suggestion is that a warm core keeps the hands and feet warm. I find the opposite.

You can always layer up, but you can't strip down. Overheating sucks.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

I tend to agree about keeping hands/feet warm first. Having frost bitten both I'm now sensitive ... cold hands/feet painful for me. Science tells us to keep core warm, but if my hands freeze ... I'm done.

And overheating DOES SUCK! Sometimes it's just TOO BLOODY HOT to ride. We don't have much humidity in California ... so when you add high humidity to super high temps ... it's tough. A lot of dealing with it is in your head. Easier when I was younger ... now, not as tough ... I'm a Wuss.

For keeping warm wearing mesh you'll need both under layers and OVER. I slip on a light rain jacket (packs small) over mesh jacket or pants. But this won't work if truly cold unless you've got many layers plus elec. gear.

Good points in the last few posts in particular.

Down filling needs "fluffing up" to be at it's most efficient (or any insulation material actually); my analogy for this is the sleeping bag which provides better thermal properties on the top compared with the bottom which is compressed by the occupants' body weight.
So, I guess any thermal layer will work better when it is compressed as little as possible during riding; easier said than done.

My thoughts about the cold hands/feet issue is that we feel those first because of the physiological reaction to dropping temps.
So, while the medical advice concerning the maintenance of core body temp is correct it is also necessary to maintain temps of the "peripherals" - the toes and fingers.
We all have the fat layers around our midriffs (some more so than others) whereas our extremities have little to no fat reserves and the inplace blood vessels are very close to the surface - heat loss is inevitable.
Feeling cold fingers and toes is an early warning to our brains.

These are typical of my musings when riding undemanding main highways.

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Dave

I've just re-read all of the earlier posts and the message continues to be that learnt in other outdoor activities, especially those practised at high altitude.

Mankind has not yet found artificial materials to beat down, feather and wool.
Cotton and leather have a role to play in the right circumstances.

I have recently been re-assessing my clothing possessions and have sent an amount of stuff away in the Salvation Army collection bags.

ps
I forgot to mention silk - I have a couple of silk sleeping bag liners.

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Dave

The body is prepared to abandon the odd finger to preserve the heart, lungs and brain. It is however designed for 7 mph not 70.

Experience in cold climates would suggest to me you do all the above. You want to be fit so the circulation moves the heat round. Unfit fatties feel cold sooner, they are just more popular when flying with Argentine Rugby teams. You want fuel for the fire, so get the porridge and pasta at meal breaks and top off with chocolate, nuts etc. You need water not coffee. Keep the heat in with insulation. You need a size bigger to avoid crushing layers or constricting blood flow.

I have never had to carry the same kit from Arctic to desert. A couple of layers for UK to Finland is as easy fit in the sidecar.

The coldest I have ever felt involved alcohol to dehydrate, make sure clothing was not finely adjusted and a missed hot meal.

I love the idea of riding in a pith helmet.

Andy

I appreciate your considered response; certainly, my musings have been less than fully complete.

I have met with guys who have lost their toes after a time spent on Everest, for instance - their motivation to "be there" (because it is there) was a fair trade in their eyes, for the loss of digits.
On the mountains I suspect that the toes go first because the fingers are used more frequently.
Perhaps it would be the same in "extreme riding" but I have never met anyone who has suffered to that extent by riding.

Pith helmets:
Yes, the next stage would have been to soak some clothing in water as well as the helmet but it didn't come to that - all very well in a country with copious supplies of non-polluted water of course.

ps
I do hope that these posts are of assistance to the OP with his packing list.

i.e. not too

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Dave

Interesting fact, though starting to drift off topic:

Modern boots have virtually eliminated frostbite from high altitude climbing. Fingers, noses, etc. are still at risk, but the advancement of boot technology means that few Himalayan climbers lose toes these days (crisis situations where someone is trapped 40 hrs above 8000m notwithstanding).




But back on topic. I wrote up a layering guide to expound on many of the themes discussed here. Hopefully, it will help OP or at least other riders with managing their gear selection.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...365#post521564

How do modern boots protect feet/toes once totally soaked through? I'm assuming mountain climbers aren't fording streams or rivers? (hope not!)

One of the valuable lessons I learned early on in my enduro racing experience was to keep feet dry. Noobs would power through water crossings, kicking up huge sheets of water, soaking themselves and the buddy riding alongside. All great fun in 80F temps!

But NOT smart in Freezing temps I got my feet wet in one Winter enduro, they were then quick frozen once the route headed up over 6K ft. and it began snowing. Major hurtin'.

From then on I kept feet UP on water crossings, stayed dry as possible in cold weather. Splashing through streams looks great on camera but really hurts later! So, be aware, if riding in lowlands in RAIN ... and then going UP to altitude, make sure things are dry. Soaking wet feet will freeze quick ... hands too. Change of socks and spare gloves A MUST.

I remember riding up from the bottom of Copper Canyon (Batopilas) in 1998. Elevation about 2300 ft. Warm, nice ... but raining this day. The fun dirt road goes sharply UP towards Creel ... so up we went enjoying a dust free and high traction ride, me on a new KLR test bike and buddy on CX650 Honda. Our rain gear was limited as it was March in Mexico! (Dry Season!) But the Sierra Tarahumaru is like our Sierra Nevada weather wise: Unpredictable ... and possibly deadly.

As we climbed we got wet. Then, round 6,000 ft. it got cold, began to snow. Snow became a "White Out". We found refuge (cafe') at top of the hill at 8,000 ft. Melted my boots trying to dry them out on a 55 gallon drum stove. Hands and feef both painfully frozen.

Thanks, learning something new each day!
My guys were around the high peaks in the 1970s - eons ago compared with your article, to which I have just responded.

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Dave

A key technique in climbing that may be relevant here is the idea of "sacred socks". Climbers sometimes succumb to trench foot, a condition that comes from prolonged wet feet where the tissue blackens and eventually dies.

A guide once shared with me the concept of "sacred socks" to prevent trench foot, which is where you reserve one pair of extra socks that you never climb in no matter how wet your other pairs are. Each night, you switch into your sacred socks when you get in your sleeping bag, then remove them in the morning. This way, your feet are guaranteed to have 6-or-so hours of dry time every day, thus avoiding the conditions for trench foot.

I've never ridden in continual rain for more than a day or two, but I could see the value of sacred socks in any prolonged wet riding travel scenario. Frankly, I doubt any ADVer has gotten trench foot, but I can attest that a pair of nice, warm, dry socks every night is a private heaven that is its own reward for anyone that has spent a full day in the rain or river crossing.

I've used Goretex boot liners the same way. The actual boot is a *** to dry, but while over boots make more sense, I've found them too annoying to ride in on anything except proper roads. You can't recce a ford with plastic over your boots.

Wool socks obviously because while vile when wet they still insulate. It's also good to put new foam insoles in the boots each season.

I have some silicone desiccant packs that can be stuffed inside a wet boot to draw out the water and then be dinged in the first hotel that'll let you near their microwave. Probably a bit bulky for the solo RTW chaps. Don't do what I saw a chap do in Finland; roast boots over open fire until the soles melt then ride out wearing borrowed trainers

Andy