just could not let this thread die even though it warrants it... first i must say, that since finding this wonderful site i have appreciated that almost to a man/woman, motorcycle adventure'ers (that's our oficial designation? right?) are very special caring people. Since this thread i have put a heavy underline under the word almost.. now to the point.. learning spanish.. I was really surprised to see that my original suggestion to find spanish speaking people in your area would have negative aspects. some of these were pointed out... I would like to make some points in regards to these, in the case that it might matter to anybody thinking of making friends with local spanish speaking people for the purpose of learning or improving your spanish...

while interacting with mexican immigrants i was surprised to learn that many of my preconceptions of mexicans was wrong. Many of the people i saw dressed poorly, washing dishes were accountants, photographers, etc. Many guys that looked like homeless indigents had autiful loving wives and children.. etc etc.. hope you get the point. At the same time, many were poor, uneducated people from rural backgrounds..
many communities have populations or individuals of spanish speaking people from all over the world.My interactions with all types of people and the friendship i found, was and is a great benifit in my life and one of the reasons i like traveling on my bike..

speaking of traveling,, the pronunciation that i learned turned out to be quite helpful.. since i do not travel exclusively to visit universities, or country clubs..

one of the comments i hear frequently from the people i meet in Mexico about trying to communicate with most gringos is, is that while they understand that the gringos might know spanish (from a book or course) they cannot understand them.. When i first started speaking spanish here in mexico i remember thinking,, hey, i am saying the right word, why the hell don´t these people understand me.. then i realized it was not those peoples responcibility to understand me, it was my responcibility to make myself understood...
some of the components of a language are: reading, writing, listening, understanding, speaking, pronunciation, grammer.. it is possible to learn one component or all.. obviously it is best to learn all if one wishes to travel and take advantage of all of the oppourtunities offered to us... there are many ways to learn one or all of these aspects.. some are great and have been suggested and debated above.. there are others of course and that was the original flavor of this thread.. Ok, i am sure there is more but i am in the cyber in Mexico City and have an appointment in 15 minutes and must run.. I will check back later to see what insecurities i have touched with some people.. haha..
ps TO Grant.. I think i understand why you deleted my earlier post and probably quite a few others too.. However I am quite surprised you did in light of you allowing some of the rather rude ones above..

i know i might be critisized for not starting a new thread, but for anyone that might be considering teaching english and might be discouraged by some of the comments above, I would like to say you probably heard the same types of comments about motorcycles or motorcycle adventuring before you started and are probably glad you did not heed those comments.. Teaching English is like any other undertaking or profession or avocation etc.. it is a learned skill.. there are differant ways to learn that skill or start with the endeavor..motorcycling is a vast enterprise that encompasses many levels, interests, functions, and so is teaching english.. you do not need a degree and a lifetime of expierience and perfect grammer to teach a friend how to say " excuse me,, but you charged me too much for this item"... like motorcycling, after you try it you might find you enjoy it and want to improve your skills......

Objectives in learning another language might be as simple as being able to get your basic needs for food, drink and shelter met, or as ambitious as wanting to be able to carry on significant conversations with locals and understand the jokes! Therefore, how much time and money you invest depends on how ambitious you want to be.

Teaching immigrants in your own country or attending a language school in another country will provide an experience and potentially a relationship with others which you won't get by doing a course on the computer or listening to tapes in your car.

If your objective is to make new friends in your own town, then the suggestion about joining a literacy program or seeking out immigrants who want to learn english is an excellent one. As pointed out, your vocabulary or pronunciation might not be as readily understandable if the countries that you're visiting are not the ones your new friends came from. I learned Spanish in Colombia originally as a child, and found that in Spain, the locals continually corrected me because I didn't pronounce 's' as 'th', which is only pronounced that way in Spain. Conversely, we observed in Guatemala that Spanish speakers from Spain were referred to as 'gringos' by the locals.

At the end of the day, if you're really worried about people ridiculing your poor Spanish in Latin America, then you will have to work quite hard to get fluent. And you will never get away from sounding like you came from somewhere else no matter how fluent you are. But if the locals are ridiculing you for your poor accent or vocabulary, you probably won't even know it, so no harm done.

Anyway, that's my two cents/pence worth in.

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Susan Johnson

'One world, two wheels'
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

__________________
Susan Johnson

Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

There's a lot of excellent ideas in this thread, interspersed with a few unnecessary comments that aren't particularly useful - so we're deleting those, and of course getting in the last word!

NOTE: personal insults are rarely productive - let's try to keep on track, and remember always - it's all just your - or someone else's - OPINION! You may not agree with it, but you can also be sure that someone else disagrees with you - and that's ok. We're all here asking questions in order to get other's opinions, and learn some different points of view. They're all good, and they're all right in their own way.

Personally, my Spanish sucks - I wish it was better, but with Susan's excellent Spanish I didn't get nearly as much practice as I would have liked. Nevertheless, I ALWAYS found that my stumbling attempts were appreciated, always met with helpful responses, and while they MAY have been looking down on me, it didn't seem that way to me. Hey, I'm clearly not a native Spanish speaker - the fact that I am TRYING, and that I speak a LITTLE, is a good thing - and always goes over well.

So my recommendation is always to take lessons, or listen to tapes or whatever you like, do the best you can, learn at least a little, and never be embarrassed at how bad your Spanish is - as long as you're trying, that's better than many people do.

Also of course, to get away from Spanish specifically, to do Africa for instance you should have French, Arabic and Swahili AT LEAST - no one can tell me they're going to learn them all well. So again, learn a little, do what you can, try, and that'll do.

A story that may illustrate my point:

We arrived at the Egyptian border from Libya, and passed a huge long lineup of trucks and busses - Libyans mostly, waiting to get in. Rode up to the guy at the gate, and asked, in English, how long it would be before we could get in. He said it could be several hours, they were only letting a few through at a time as it was very busy. We talked a moment or two about the long line, and how it was very busy. I then said, "Shukran", which is Arabic for "Thank you", and got ready to wait. But he immediately broke out into a big grin, and said, again in English,

"Ah! You speak Arabic! Come, come in!"

And he opened the gate and waved us through! I had maybe twenty words of Arabic - but they were the right words.

With that thought, I'm now going to close the thread.

[This message has been edited by Grant Johnson (edited 14 February 2006).]

__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.
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Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

Yep - and I have deleted the rest of the rude ones above...

__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.
------------------------
Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

Thanx for re-opening this thread Grant. This is an interesting discusion, and i honestly can't see why some people become so offended by different points of view!?! As i stated earlier when i began this thread, my work scedual does not allow me to attend classes. Sometimes i'm lucky to get on this board and provide a useful contribution to my fellow travelling brothers and sisters. I've spent months at a time with spanish friends, lovers, etc. and was never able to comunicate properly. I took Gringo's advice and managed to download Pimsleur Spanish one. I'm into my fourth lesson now, and this works for me. Not only am i learning the proper pronounciation, i'm learning the structure of the language, something that all others have failed to teach me. It takes half an hour a day, and i can do it on my bike, at home, in my truck, etc. It seems easy because you are not overloaded with information everyday, and i go to sleep with the words i learned playing in my mind...weird, huh? I will continue this course through to its end, and hopefully continue to Span.2 and 3.
Everyone is different in their way of learning. I've discovered that its very dificult for me to learn from those who do not know how to teach, and therefor most of the things i've learned in my life i've taught myself, usually the hard way! (you should see my library of tech manuals!) But this example is only mine, and i'm unique, just like everyone else.
Wyomex...i think your ideas are great, but they just don't work for me or my situation right now. I'm trying to make due with the little time i have to myself, and honestly i'm giving up a spanish lesson to continue with this thread.If i had a 9-5, i'd be following your sugestion, but i don't have that option. When i return to Latin America, i'd like to go to school for a couple of weeks. Actually, now that i'm beginning to grasp the structure of this beautiful language, i'm sure it will be easier to learn from the locals.
Gringo, that was a great story, wish i were there!
And to everyone else who contributes to this thread, please lets keep it civil.
Has anyone else out there tried learning from language tapes, and how did it work for you?

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TOEFL

WOW!
This is the largest "post time gap" I've ever seen on any thread on any forum!
Last post was back in 2006!!!! 10 years!

Good topic however, would be nice to hear CURRENT experiences from folks who've managed to learn a language whilst on the road these days.

Old buried thread yes, but this topic comes up time and time again on many web boards. If you live outside a Spanish speaking country and you have a desire to learn the language, then consider this. If there is a Spanish speaking community in your home area, then take a walk to the local Catholic church, public library, or community college. There are probably evening classes where one can assist and teach Spanish speaking immigrants English. And you will be getting a terrific Spanish lesson in return for free.

As far as old geezers whining about "I can't learn a foreign language, I'm too old." Complete BS, only the accent part will be difficult. Sure a foreign language is easier to learn when you are young, but still possible when you are old.

Great idea Pancho!
But I also feel taking a "real" class, from a "real" language teacher can help with basics. As you said, community colleges are good, inexpensive and have night classes. But getting involved in local Latino community is great advice.

IMO, learning Spanish at level 1 and 2 is a good start. You need to learn about 50 verbs for travel/survival and know basic conjugations. Pronouns important too and of course the two verbs "To Be" (Ser and Estar), most important two verbs. Vocabulary will come with exposure, interaction with Spanish speakers.

For most, learning language is hard work, but yes, even old folks can do this. I learned as a kid and have a musical ear so my accent is perfect .... but locals think I'm Argentine and start rattling on and I get lost ... so I'm atypical, good accent, poor comprehension.

Regional accents are interesting too. The toughest ones for me were:
#1 Cuban (I heard it NYC and Miami) #2 Puerto Rican (NYC) #3 Chilean (3 months in Chile). The best speakers? Colombians.

During 7 years living/traveling/working throughout Latin America I learned most accents, regional slang and such. But after my bump on the head (Moto accident in '97) ... I initially forgot most of my Spanish. Over the next year or two it slowly came back! ... but never got it all back.

Many travelers take Spanish classes in Antigua, Guatemala. This is good but many of the kids teaching haven't a clue about teaching a language, no training. You won't learn much from someone who hasn't a clue how to teach language. So .... find a good one if you can, pay more for a real pro if possible.


I taught English (as a NON pro!) in El Salvador. I was there mostly to teach the kids accent and proper pronunciation. They mostly wanted me to translate current rock songs ... which I tried to do best I could. (not well)

The Maestra's accent was SO BAD ... so totally far off ... that it was hard because she was sending all these kids down the "wrong path". I had to diplomatically re-structure their pronunciation ... not easy for most of them, but they got it ... finally. I could not re-train the teacher's ear ... to far off.

Only stayed a month, (I came in twice a week for an hour), so no PHD's came out of my kids. But they all had a good time ... and they SHOWED UP!
They ALL wanted to go to USA ... and my bet is most of them are here now.

Yeah I hear you. Same experience here, all my young Mexican students in every class were baffled to find an American in Mexico. "Why do you live here? We want to go to the US." I thought a lot about their question and after a while I learned to tell them, "I understand that you want to live in the US for the many opportunities you will find there, but, remember to take your culture with you because if you don't you will lose all." Actually I said it a little different, something like "en el otro lado es una cultura sin cultura", (no offense intended)

I will never forget my first Spanish lesson. After an hour of listening to my awful US Southern accent, my teacher turned to me and said: "A, I, E, O, U un burro sabe mas que tu!" And he was (is) right.

Barron's Spanish Guide, 55 verbs, and a vocabulary of 1500 words and you will be fluent enough to get by. Throw in as many "por favors and gracias" whenever you can. People here are polite and they will understand you better if you behave the same.

We are spending this winter on the western coast of Mexico, and found an expat community, the majority having wintered here or have been permanent residents for many years have not bothered to learn even the most basic Spanish. Most of the expats we have met have all social activities at a "social club" that I call "Buena Gringas Social Club" and eat at expat owned restaurants.

The expats have contributed to the community - established an excellent sea rescue operation - that assists local fishermen as well as the expat sport fishermen. And, have contributed substantially to the red cross, schools and medical care here.

rosa del desierto who is Spanish, with a PhD from a New York University, decided to offer free classes for beginning and intermediate Spanish. Free, because it would not be legal to charge having entered on a tourist visa.

I have become involved in learning about and interacting with the indigenous population who have a nearby village.

The classes have become so popular that she is teaching 2 classes a day 3 times a week with many expats waiting for a new class to begin. I am talking about 30 to 40 expats learning/improving their Spanish. Any Hubbers who have a couple of months free, are invited to attend the classes rosa del desierto is offering from now until May.

My point is Hubbers in any Hubb community can collectively hire a teacher, Spanish, French, Russian whatever, willing to teach a foreign language class oriented toward the language needs of the over landers attending.

And, don't forget making friends with native speakers of the language you wish to learn is a great way to learn the new language, perhaps in exchange for helping friends learn your native language.

xfiltrate

Excellent post and all SPOT ON. I especially like your last line above about being polite and using formal greetings ... always. Something our Culture-LESS USA has forgotten ... and same goes for many Euro/UK travelers.

I constantly try to convince travelers I meet that no matter how big a hurry or how self absorbed they are ... always take time to say a friendly "Buenos Dias". Goes a long way to opening doors and to understanding Mexican culture and civility.
Never just burst upon the scene and immediately make demands of what you want. I try not to use "quiero" (I want), rather prefer the subjunctive "quisiera". (I would like) softer, more polite. The French do the same ... always a bon jour ... no matter what.

Unfortunately Mexican kids (like American kids) have been peddled a bill of goods from Television (how I made my living! ) and buy into to all the Gringo crap and our "false bottom" set of values which leads ... nowhere.

Learning Spanish before travelling to Central/South America is by the best thing you can do.

Stick at it.. It will increase you enjoyment 1000x. It's such a wonderful passionate and energetic part of the world filled full of amazing people.

I did night school classes before I went. Most local colleges will do adult learning part time classes. You don't need to be fluent, but a basic understanding of the grammar and common phrases will help you pick it up when you get there.

Going to a class will force you into learning it. I find computer programmes, CD's etc are easy to put off and not take seriously.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I took classes as part of an adult continuing education offering at a local high school. Took a week of classes at a language school in Mexico. Listened to tapes and the free podcast 'Coffee Break Spanish." Smart phone loaded up with digital flash cards and sundry conversational lessons. Some stuck, most bounced off my thick and rubbery head. Frankly, its work to learn and I didn’t put in enough effort. Never went hungry, thirsty or could find a place to sleep, but my interaction with local was not as rich as it could have been. My most valuable crutch, an offline translator app for my smart phone. It worked pretty well, but is no longer available. Search and ye shall find something like it, or better.

__________________
Peter B
2008/09 - NJ to Costa Rica and back to NJ
2012/13 - NJ to Northern Argentina, Jamaica, Cuba and back to NJ
2023 - Peru, Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia...back to Peru.

Blogs: Peter's Ride