Yes, yes. I've read (and posted) all I care to about legs and ankles broken or not broken by hard cases in falls. I was asking specifically about break-ins, because I don't recall ever hearing of any. Then again, my memory is not what I once imagined it to be.

Anyone?

Mark

It looks like you start a bit earlier then you stopped last time: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ardcases-46765

With all respect to Ted Simmon he was an old guy who crashed at the Moyale road in muddy conditions using road-tires when driving an overloaded BMW...


Wow, they are cute at that age.

Quote; And never trust this liar either, I'm sure he made it all up:
The Return of Jupiter's Travel
Mickey D

Sorry to go off topic here but again I must question your unnecessary strong vocal opinions and unsubstantiated comments.:confused1:

Mickey D- what is it with you ? you call Ted Simon a liar - in this thread in a previous thread you slag off and try to discredit Sam Manicom I know you do not know nor have met Sam, I don't know if you have met Ted, Yet again i know many people who would vouch for Ted's pleasant and friendly manner - maybe in his writing he used artistic license - that I do not know. But to me its all a bit odd - they (Sam and Ted ) do not appear to me to be the ones with the problem.

I think you've not followed on with the thread here mate. My post was in response to Ali's who questioned whether anyone has ever had a leg broken by a hard pannier, and referred to them as "mystery men", which is to imply they don't exist, which, obviously, isn't true. (you follow?)

My point was to show many have, in fact, had their legs broken by panniers and the two examples I sited illustrate this. Have you not ever read Ted Simon? Please go back and review.

My SARCASTIC reply (the liar part) actually inferred the opposite of what you were thinking, as we both know Ted is a very reliable source for authentic information .... the story of his broken leg in his book after all. World Rider (Allan) is a BMW F650 riding friend who had his pannier break his leg in Bolivia, that is the link to his 200 page ride report on ADV rider.

Sorry if you missed my intention here. This is my fault for not being more clear. Sometimes irony and sarcasm are lost online. Now add American "Humor", and there you have it.

I actually have met Ted. At one of this presentations. Great guy. I think I replied to your questions regarding my opinions of Manicom in another thread. Should we review?

It's the unanswerable question. A luggage version of "BMW or Honda". All I can tell you is, after 50,000 miles of Metal Mules (bought when they were half the price they are now), I like boxes. I have regularly left them on the bike outside the hotel, in 4 continents, and have never had anything stolen.

But I still think - maybe next time, soft luggage, for lightness. Maybe I will. But the psychological advantage of a locked metal box, which I have happily left in Mexico City or Nairobi while I get a coffee, tends to prevail.

I like the idea that small, soft luggage stops you taking a mountain of crap you don't need. But I also like taking a mountain of crap. You just need a bigger bike.

Maybe that's the answer? If I was going across Africa on a 650 single again, I'd lean towards soft luggage. On a bigger bike, in a place with better roads, I'd probably go for boxes.

Final thought - I suspect that my boxes stopped me getting a broken leg in Kenya in 2005. But I don't think the luggage is the issue, usually. It's the fact that you're riding a motorbike and falling off it. It just depends which bit of your vehicle lands on your leg.

__________________
Simon

London-Cape Town 2004-06
Buenos Aires-Vancouver 2008-10:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/fitzpatrick

Well, what I mean is that the danger with hard boxes are exaggerated and I think that when you have to use an old guy who crashed at the Moyale "road" in muddy conditions using road-tires and light boots when driving an overloaded BMW you prove my point.

As you say Ted Simon switched to soft luggage, he did so in Australia but he crashed in Kenya(!!). In Australia he also send home his camping-gear and lot of other stuff. I totally agree with him; when you have send home most of your stuff you don't need the boxes.

I haven't read the story you referred to. Reading 122 pages on Adv is not my kind of fun.

Mickey D

Sorry yep you had lost me altogether thought you were getting into a load of Negatives, just did not come across on the screen to me in the way you meant it - sorry for the mis interpretation.

Ta for putting me right - we are back on track. Tchus Jake.

You are correct Ali, Ted is not a good example. A guy his age could have broken a leg or worse no matter what. I just had that handy as a link.
But the fact remains, there are plenty of riders, young and old who have been hurt from hard panniers. (myself included) Not all make it onto the internet and most do not result in a broken leg, but plenty of injuries have happened. We had a guy just a month ago fall off his R1200GS. Leg trapped under Jesse pannier. He had to wait until 3 of us lifted bike off him. We thought he broke it, but just badly bruised. (good boots again!)

Just reading ride reports over the years I've seen several broken leg/ankle stories. Many riders here report the same. I don't think they are exaggerations.
According to what Ted wrote, he specifically got rid of the hard bags to lose weight on the bike. He got rid of Tourtech panniers and a top box. He took 100 lbs. off the bike. Far as I know he made the switch in Africa while recovering from the crash. I remember he did comment on how much easier the bike was to handle with less weight.

Are you saying he waited until getting to Australia to make the switch?
(I'm no Ted Simon expert, so fill me in please)

I don't blame you, it's too much to read through! And that report is only the 2nd half! The first RR is gone off ADV I think, it's another 100 pages or so and covers up until the crash. Both are good reports with some excellent pics. Allan does very nice photos, IMO.

The problem Allan had was his Dakar was too heavy and he never rode bikes off road before. So once again, a better rider, even if they crashed, would maybe have the experience to get their leg out of the way. But Allan was very new and not used to falling off. So he also is not a good example. But even some good riders have been injured .... I've seen it.

cheers!

Yes the only change he did after the crash was to get a better pair of boots. He stayed at Chris house in Nairobi (chief mechanic at BMW at that time) and had plenty of time and opportunities to do any changes he wanted to the bike. Some minor changes was done with the bike but nothing weight-related. Chris has a few stories from that time.


Ted struggled with the weight more then once during his trip so in Melbourne he decided to ship back all his camping-equipment and some other stuff. When the total volume was reduced hi also removed the panniers. The panniers were used when he crossed Europe, Africa, Americas and some of Australia. He didn't do a lot of kms after Australia, he was more or less shipping to Turkey.

Sadly he crashed again last year (at the age of 78) and he is still using boxes.

Ok, here is my experience riding my k100 around the world with givi rack and cases - e45 models - (all right, almost everything in that sentence is suggesting that things will go wrong...):
- Syria, major fall, one of the side cases damaged.
- Jordan, major fall, nothing broken, but the structure was weakened
- Turkey, major fall (lost the front grip after 80km on snow...snow piled up between the mud thing and the tyre, and blocked the tyre). One case lock exploded, the rack broke, and it got too -20° before the first car passed by and stopped;
- Turkmenistan, off road border crossing to Kazakhstan (no choice on that one); front wheel on sand, put the foot on the ground to get the bike back up. Huge pain on ankle, which was finally just twisted. It got painful for a couple of weeks.
- Laos, off road with a side car since Kazakhstan: the left foot trapped under the case, the knee hits the engine badly. Could not walk for two days, big bad bruise.

Now, well, it's your call. But i'm going for soft luggage on the side, and a hard top case. And anyway, if someone is really up to stealing something from you, a metal lock is not really going to stop him, is it?

__________________
http://www.terres-humaines.com

I really question how useful some of this information (generally speaking) will be to the original poster.

Certainly, I question the pseudo-science of the "pannier broke my leg" hypothesis.

I'm not denying that riders have crashed and had their leg broken by a pannier, but I question any statements, by others, to the effect that they would not have broken their leg had they not had hard panniers...

Want to make it scientific? Then one needs prove that in cases where soft panniers were used and there was a favourable femur outcome, that it was down to the presence of soft panniers, and a lack of hard cases. And that is near impossible to prove...

These are easy statements to make and easy to swallow, but impossible to prove, unless you get some poor sod to crash with and crash without in the exact same way to see if his tibia twangs in both cases....

If someone was unfortunate enough to break their leg due to hard cases, then they've earnt the right to question them on these grounds. For the rest of us it's conjecture....

Brown the new black, conjecture the new data.

To the original poster:

Hard cases:
+
hard, more secure, can keep the bike off your legs in a crash
-
expensive, heavier, may break you leg in a crash

Soft Panniers
+
cheaper, lighter, may not break your leg in a crash
-
soft and so easier to rip open, may not keep the bike off you in a crash.

Conclusion:
Do like me buy a Ural sidecar. If you bin that so that it lands on your leg, I guarantee that luggage will be the least of your concerns!!

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Warthog, I'm sorry, but I find the first part of your answer rather rude, and it seems to me that there are a couple of things that are dodgy in your assertions:
Who talked about scientific procedure to prove that it is actually an ineluctable fact of the laws of nature that one is more likely to break his leg when having a bike equiped with hard luggage? The whole point is about:
common sense: bang yourself against a pillow, then try the same against a rock. It does not prove anything, does it, but it gives you a fair clue of what you'd like to avoid.
experience: some people, on this forum, are here to share their experience of love affairs with rocks and pillows. Why isn't it possible to trust their experience? It seems to me that's the kind of reaction kids have listening to old people saying "oh no my boy, you should not smoke, trust me, i've done it" and going like "yeah right, whatever grand dad".
I definitely twisted my ankle, and got pretty scared for my knee three weeks ago. Both times it was in the middle of nowhere - the first in the steppe, the second in the jungle. And EVERY single time it happened, i swore I'd go for soft luggage - which I'm currently doing.
The difference now, is that i've got a side car, so the question of the bike falling on me is not that important (chances are pretty low to fall on a side car, or at least smaller than with a motorcycle. The outcome of a fall is different too).
Now, and again, if someone wants to steal from you, hard or soft luggage, it won't make much difference.

__________________
http://www.terres-humaines.com

I'll sit on the fence. I dropped an XT600 at 40 MPH and did nothing to the TT boxes worse than take some stickers off. I dropped the Triumph solo and zero mph with soft luggage and did no damage, then again three months later with the TT boxes on (Metal mule rack) and managed to bend a box so the lid didn't fit. I've seen a Givi box explode on contact with the autobahn and both ally and soft bags do nothing more than end up a bit trashed. I've seen a TT box ripped off by a rock and a BMW touring box jump off it's rails just with a few bumps.

I too now have a sidecar. I use my TT boxes because I have them and they can make a decent table top/chair. They are no more secure than soft bags and are probably worse for the water they let in and trap (I drilled drain holes) and the grey paste they cover my waterproof inners with. I use ex-military and roll top type waterproof sacks on the various racks I have. This is the route I'll continue to follow when the TT boxes cease to be usable. I use soft bags on my solo bikes.

As for broken legs, the box I bent did take the full weight of the bike, but so did the soft bag earlier.

Andy

Needless to say, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I made no personal references to you or anyone else. I have, however, edited my post above to be a little clearer as to what I was trying to say...

That is a completely unsupported statement, IMHO

Re-read my post: I never said that any one who refers to a personal experience was wrong or inaccurate.

As far as pillows and rocks are concerned: I assume you compare hard cases to rocks: fair enough, and you compare soft panniers to pillows, also fair enough.

However, you overlook another rock: the bloody great big bike that is just as likely to land on a rider with its footpegs and red hot exhaust, in the event of a crash. That is the risk I was referring to.

Am I the old bloke or the kid?

Finally, the original poster asked simply which was best and in the latter half of this thread it seemed, to me at least, that this "risk to your legs" issue was becoming a major issue to the arguement. I merely tried to point that whilst some people have been hurt by hard luggage, there are also some who have been hurt by a bike whilst using soft luggage. Who's to say that hard luggage would not have kept the bike off their leg?

That is MY personal experience of riding with hard luggage. My legs and that of my pillion were never broken and the footpeg that once made a bid for my tibia would have reached it had the panniers not kept the bike those few degrees closer to vertical. Am I wrong?

As I said, I don't feel you should feel my post rude and I'm sorry that you do: there was nothing derogatory implied on my part, simply showing that there was a flipside to the issues being raised.

We can agree on one thing: I too have a sidecar....

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way... Travel safe, anyway (and yes, side car is more than an option!)

__________________
http://www.terres-humaines.com