|
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 13
|
|
How to warm Diesel in Winter (Siberia)?
Hello overlanders,
I am due to drive through Siberia in February-March 2008 with my 1996 Land-Cruiser 4.2 Turbo-Diesel.
Since it will be very cold, I was wondering what to do in order to keep the Diesel running.
Does anyone have some experiences or hints?
I would really appreciate!
Thx a lot,
Tobias
-----------------------------
In 2 years around the world by 4x4
PanMundo.Com
|
3 Oct 2007
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Saltspring Island,Canada/Poole,UK
Posts: 1,081
|
|
Tobias,
You should find some answers on this thread :
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...diesel+heating
A Webasto/Eiberspacher with the warm coolant pipes routed around your fuel system is the way to go as Luke suggested
- or an alternative is a 110/240 Volt block/circulating coolant heater and a small petrol generator - though lugging a gene around is a pain.
I Have a question for the Guys with the Webato/Eiber set ups - are they on a thermostat or can you get them to run 100% duty ?- which are the best models to use - experiences ?
later
Grif
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sax, Spain
Posts: 901
|
|
You may not want to try this method........
saw a TV programme, where Russian truckers lit small fires under their truck Diesel tanks to liquefy the solidified Fuel...
Cant you pick a warmer country? Spain is nice..........
Oh, the Eberspacher is probably by far the better option if your tank is a PLASTIC one too........
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cairo
Posts: 304
|
|
Just a thought.
I've read as well the indicated thread but there's still one or two points I think are worthy of mention. I apologise if it's a case of grandmother and suction of eggs, but anyway -
as diesel gets colder it passes through a "cloud point" to a "waxing point". This can be just a degree or two below freezing depending on the quality of the fuel.
It's the waxing point that you need to be careful of.
But first -
Battery.
Make sure it's in good condition and all connections are clean and tight. The colder it is the worse it is.
I've had to resort to taking it to bed with me to keep it warm. I've also had to warm it up by putting it on top of a pan of boiling water on my stove. I've put it to sleep overnight with a blanket, a hot water bottle and my teddy bear. I've seen people pouring boiling water over it to warm it up, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.
When your battery seems dead and unresponsive, wait and warm it up (funnily enough it seems to work with my wife as well)
Fuel lines - maybe insulate them, definitely try and run them in places out of the wind and/or near the engine. Make sure there is no water in the filter or lines (obviously it will freeze and block it all up). If you're running in very cold weather and the engine stops, you try and bleed it but no fuel comes through, often the filters clog up first with the wax. I've used a blow torch to warm them up (only metal cased filters). Then try and bleed it again. I've also changed the filter for a new one at the side of the road, kept the old one until it thawed out, rinsed it out with clean fuel, and then re-used it.
Oil - make sure you are using the right grade of oil, especially with a turbo motor. Not good when the oil is too thick on start up and the turbo doesn't get it's fair share.
Park at night out of the wind or at least arse on to it.
Starting - mentioned before was an aerosol to help recalcitrant engines (I know it as "Easy Start"). It does help but anecdotal evidence suggests if you use it a lot then the engine doesn't seem to want to start at any other time without it. Don't know if there is some technical reason for it or even if it is true, I just know I've had diesels that wont get out of bed without it.
Better idea for starting on cold mornings - oily rag soaked in diesel, held in your barbecue tongs, set alight and put close to the air inlet so that the hot gasses are sucked in when you turn the engine over.
Maybe understand or practice the idea of turning the engine over using a rope and jacked up rear wheel for when your battery is really dead.
You can put a percentage of petrol in your diesel to lower the waxing point. It is debatable as to what percentage is acceptable and it is better if you don't use it at all. What I do know is that for a short period of time (85 km's) I used a mix of 25% to get me out of the sh*t. Definately not recommended.
|
3 Oct 2007
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bombinhas-Santa Catarina-Brazil
Posts: 297
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyMark
You can put a percentage of petrol in your diesel to lower the waxing point. It is debatable as to what percentage is acceptable and it is better if you don't use it at all. What I do know is that for a short period of time (85 km's) I used a mix of 25% to get me out of the sh*t. Definately not recommended.
|
~
I put a 4 % of petrol in the dieseltank in colder regions (South America though...) and had no waxing even at -25C. Have been told that this mixture also cleans up the injector system. Dont know if it is true but at over 300.000 km the engine of my Landcruiser (PZJ75) is still untouched and running as new.
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 110
|
|
Everybodies doing it, doing it, doing it....
G·day all,
mixing a certain % of petrol with the diesel can·t be bad; a lot of taxi drivers do it precisely to keep injectors clean as mentioned!
A bit like vodca for humans!
Cheers .... Dan
|
3 Oct 2007
|
|
Large Golden Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,085
|
|
25 % petrol is the absolute maximum amount, any more and you will bugger up the injector pump .Kerosene is better and a proper additive is best .
In Canada we have a product called "Meltdown" that will free up gelled fuel lines and filters ,find an equivalent and carry it with you .
However you will find that most cold countries will actually sell you "winter diesel" unlike Britain ,which comes to a screeching halt whenever a flake of snow falls,some countries are organised for winter .
Carry a heavy tarpaulin [not plastic] and drape it over the front of your vehicle ,wrap the radiator and front of the engine to stop the wind blast , if you have winter diesel in the tank you should then be fine for -45c .If you don't have engine block heaters to plug in to a power supply , then at very low temps let the engine idle all night . If it's an automatic gearbox , allow the vehicle to idle in N for a few minutes to warm up the tranny before you move off .
Engines can be thawed out using a length of stove pipe placed under the engine bay and a propane torch , very effective but messy if you overdo it .
__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 326
|
|
You will find that in most cold places (like Alaska where I live, probably Siberia as well) diesel fuel is blended with kerosene, Jet A or #1 fuel oil to bring the cloud point below anticipated low temperatures.
As long as your engine is running, the fuel return line to your tank will warm the contents of the tank. The real problem is starting.
Diesels are increasingly hard to start below -15 C. even with the usual starting aids like glow plugs or intake heaters, even block heaters. Nights falling below -20 C. would make me leave the engine running all night. Below -35 C. you probably won't start a diesel that has been outdoors all night no matter what you do unless you put a big space heater under the motor for an hour or two.
Best advice in very cold temps: leave the motor running, use Jet A if available (NOT Jet B, it's close to petrol), add a bit of motor oil if >50% Jet A or kerosene. Also, drive very gingerly when starting out for 15-20 minutes till gearboxes and diffs have warmed up. Alloy steels become brittle at very low temps.
Charlie
__________________
Unimog U500 w/Unicat
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,598
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by m37charlie
You will find that in most cold places (like Alaska where I live, probably Siberia as well) diesel fuel is blended with kerosene, Jet A or #1 fuel oil to bring the cloud point below anticipated low temperatures.
As long as your engine is running, the fuel return line to your tank will warm the contents of the tank. The real problem is starting.
Diesels are increasingly hard to start below -15 C. even with the usual starting aids like glow plugs or intake heaters, even block heaters. Nights falling below -20 C. would make me leave the engine running all night. Below -35 C. you probably won't start a diesel that has been outdoors all night no matter what you do unless you put a big space heater under the motor for an hour or two.
Best advice in very cold temps: leave the motor running, use Jet A if available (NOT Jet B, it's close to petrol), add a bit of motor oil if >50% Jet A or kerosene. Also, drive very gingerly when starting out for 15-20 minutes till gearboxes and diffs have warmed up. Alloy steels become brittle at very low temps.
Charlie
|
This is good advice... Also note that several companies make veggie oil conversion kits. One of the functions of these kits is to pre-heat the fuel oil. You may well find they have some bits that would help alleviate cold weather use. I have to say when I have overnighted in very cold conditions I run the engine and 'try' to steal heat from the engine to heat the cabin. A diesel idling uses very little fuel, so does not produce much heat. you may find running the return line alongside the feed then insulating both will help. I do this here on our water pipes in teh house. perhaps an immersion heater such as is used for fish in the fuel tanks? It helps if you have an oil pressure gauge, to set the idle at a sufficient speed to maintain good oil pressure. This may be fast enough to allow you to steal some electricity.
Last edited by oldbmw; 3 Oct 2007 at 22:20.
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cairo
Posts: 304
|
|
Petrol in Diesel
I agree that it is commonly done to add a bit of petrol to lower the waxing point and I've often done it myself.
But when I said - "it is better if you don't use it at all" I believe that to be true, even before I read http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/...ng_feb2007.pdf where the relevant part says, "... but with modern diesels that use extremely high injection pressures the viscosity of the fuel is critical. Any petrol present can cause scarring of the pump elements, and the seals can be damaged by compounds found in petrol."
Presumably if you've got an older diesel engine then it's ok (?)
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,598
|
|
better to use Kerosene or paraffin
|
3 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 775
|
|
Quote:
Since it will be very cold, I was wondering what to do in order to keep the Diesel running
|
Tobias
Read the travelogues linked in the threads mentioned here. You will learn what Russian drivers do to keep going. Here is the basic advice - turn off the engine only if you must and park the car only in enclosed spaces.
__________________
----------------
Roman (UK)
|
4 Oct 2007
|
|
Large Golden Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,085
|
|
Most of the loggers around here add 2 stroke oil to winter diesel , it has great lubricating properties and also any excess will burn away without leaving heavy deposits .
Avoid using ether if you can but if you absolutely have to use it , use it sparingly .An excess will blow head gaskets and warp cylinder heads , I've seen it happen [ no it wasn't me !] and it is quite spectacular .
Use synthetic oil in the engine as well , 0/30 or equivalent ,check the specs of the oil for it's pour point ,aim for about -50C.
__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."
|
4 Oct 2007
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 68
|
|
Many good advicec here. An webasto/ebersprächer is essential. A set off good and large batteries is a must. Maybee seting up a 3rd battery for the webasto/eber. so you dont drain the starter batteries. Toyota turbo diesels with direct injection is wery easy to start, never had a problem with mine well bellow the -30 C.Even when standing in this temperatur for several days. No need to let the engine idle through the night at -20 C, or even at -35 C.
I would think the diesel in russia have the additives added for kepping it liquid.
Look after your batteries and electric system and you should be ok i think.
Do your LC have the "blancket" in front of the radiator? Have this pulled down.
Frode
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Next HU Events
ALL Dates subject to change.
2024:
- California: April 18-21
- Virginia: April 25-28
- Germany Summer: May 9-12
- Québec: May 17-19
- Bulgaria Mini: July 5-7
- CanWest: July 11-14
- Switzerland: August 15-18
- Ecuador: August 23-25
- Romania: August 30-Sept 1
- Austria: September 12-15
- France: September 20-22
- Germany Autumn: Oct 31-Nov 3
2025 Confirmed Events:
- Virginia: April 24-27 2025
- Queensland is back! May 2-4 2025
- Germany Summer: May 29-June 1 2025
- CanWest: July 10-13 2025
- Switzerland: Date TBC
- Ecuador: Date TBC
- Romania: Date TBC
- Austria: Sept. 11-15
- California: September 18-21
- France: September 19-21 2025
- Germany Autumn: Oct 30-Nov 2 2025
Add yourself to the Updates List for each event!
Questions about an event? Ask here
See all event details
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...
2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)
Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.
Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.
Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!
What others say about HU...
"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia
"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK
"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia
"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA
"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada
"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa
"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia
"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany
Lots more comments here!
Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook
"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.
Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!
New to Horizons Unlimited?
New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!
Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.
Read more about Grant & Susan's story
Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
|
|
|