I agree, however, might it have been on of ProTrax's 'events' rather than the usual travel tour type thing? - Doesn't Vince still run a challenge type event in Morocco? - perhaps these were all the competitors together on liason?

Still doesn't make it right mind you!

xxx

JMO,

Protrax do not organise competitions. I dont think they have the correct insurances to run such things. Besides, they make enough money without running them!

These were not competition vehicles, these were all standard Land Rovers some containing families. I could see them coming down the gorge, strung out over a mile or so . Stopped and had a brief chat with the "tour leader", then we carried on.

Now i am getting all superior and snooty about organised trips, because they charge a hell of a lot and dont really give much back. If the doggy poo hits the fan you are on your own.

Russ, if i can organise a 4week solo trip to Morocco anybody can! never driven abroad before, only been driving 3 years to. We did plenty of pistes and had an awesome time. total cost? 2k

Maybe i should start a new thread? Sorry for the Hijack Darrin

G

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That's ok, I too have suffered the aftermath of 'tour's that are far too large.

Interesting timing though as I'm currently considering offering some unique yak tours in September/October - individually tailored trips for very small groups, mostly staying with local families and desert camping.

Anyway, back to Winching!

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If your offering something unique where a lot of thought and preperation has gone into it then tours can be very rewarding/worthwhile. what you propose to do sounds very good. Keep the size of the group small/managable, I would also be inclined to almost "vet" your customers! It would be wise to ask questions and make sure they have the right attitude/kit/spares. Anyone can spend $$$ to do your tour, but to make it work you need everyone to be working together with the same aims/goals. You dont want a couple of defenders who want to drive hard and fast with a family in a disco or a series 2. You couldnt please everyone, so someone would be disappointed. maybe a questionaire and elimination process is the way forward?!

Thats why i feel companies who just advertise in the mags and take as many people as they can do it all wrong, and they get a lot of bad press through forums too. Charging around trying to make campsites before dark, hurrying people along to meet deadlines. Its not the way. you should be prepared to adapt/change the route (whilst out there) to tailor your customers needs. Speak to them, what they want to see? do?

always adapting/changing/evolving along the way thats my recipe for a good tour anyway. If you need a back-up motor for Moroc Darrin, I will be up for it.

G

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Darrin, I have never done a winch course, but maybe a LANTRA course run for telecom/local authority type drivers might be cheaper and better than the recreational type LR experience/Vince something type courses?

And yes I suppose it would be best to remove tie down points if fitting recovery points... but otherwise leave them be (gentle winching/towing will likely be fine). To be honest I have subjected Toyota and Nissan "non rated" points or "pig tails" to some pretty large forces. LR ones too - a CAT D7 can pull pretty hard. Okay serious jerking or snatching I would not want to be near. I have also narrowly avoided serious injury while spooling wire back onto the drum - gloves and a hook holder are needed, which I learned the hard way a few times. The winch installation also needs some care and it is generally also recomended to fit a manual disconnect switch between the winch and batteries in case of solenoids sticking while winching resulting in the winch not stopping! I have never seen this with a winch but I have with an overhead electric crane (think BIG winch) and it was interesting...

The best thing about vehicle recovery I have learned (and subsequently read) is to sit back (tea, fag whatever) and calmy think and plan all your intentions as logically as possible. The natural reaction is to hurry and get out of the situation as fast as possible - don't! Plan and anticipate what can go wrong... Then start. I learn't this from 13 years improvising recovery of dozers etc. I am no professional or military tank recovery type but I have learnt a bit from trial and error - 3 days to get a disabled 30 ton Dozer out of a river was a memorable one. There is a very good, tiny book with some very good 4x4 recovery techniques but for the life of me I cannot remember it's name!

BTW this Vince chap can't be all bad if he did CD's UJ for FOC!

Definitely good advice re. the LANTRA, utility type training. A friend and I ran exactly those types of courses a few years back and the principle was to do things in a controlled and safe manner. START philosophy was used “stop, think, action plan, record(ok don’t need to write things down) and talk. I’m not saying that recreational training is completely yah hoo but you may well find that in some UK off road clubs.

Lets attach a kinetic rope to the tie down eyes as talked about above and see what speed we can get the recovery vehicle up to before the other vehicle either flys through the air or the entire front end detaches itself does happen

Either my ARB bumper is stuck against a bank or my axles are standing on mud before the winch gets deployed. Either way, I know im in trouble if the winch is needed especially on our own.

G

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FWIW - gentle winching - okay maybe I should clarify... my definition of gentle winching:

lets say soft mud and you have lost traction - you would use your winch then no? As opposed to completely absolutely bogged and you need a double line pull with literally tons of force to get you out. My point is that most overlanding really does not need uprated recovery points.

For the sake of £20 i would rather purchase a pair of jate rings (in the case of a LR) than take my chances on the lashing eyes.

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I think that is a little naive Gilghana? Who's to say just 'how stuck' you are going to get? - if you could chose that you probably wouldn't be getting stuck in the first place?!

I would say any vehicle that is going to be used on road/trail conditions that might need recovery (either self, or by another vehicle) ought to have secure recovery points - as Griffdawg says, they are not expensive, and could prevent more serious damage or injury?

Yes you can often make do in a situation (just last weekend I saw some guys in a 2WD Ford explorer wrapping a tow-strop around their front suspension A-arm for goodness sake?!) - just like you can drive/ride round the world on crappy tyres if you want... but surely a few sensible precautions (which is what vehicle preparation is all about) makes such a situation far safer?

xxx

Well, for twenty quid I am not going to argue with anyone. On the point of naivety however I would - but not here as it is not constructive for anyone.

BTW Darrin I think it would be interesting to know how you get on with the training if you do it!

That's fair, I didn't mean it to sound personally insulting, only that in general that noone can foresee the extent of a recovery required? I was using it as a pointer for the less experienced to consider?

xxx

All cool - as a matter of interest I have chosen an ARB locked rear and truetrac front rather than "external" recovery aids - will post up some rainforest testing soon...

Slightly off topic but,

Looking at this from a slightly different point guys, there may be a time when your "stuck" vehicle has to be recovered by someone whilst you are not there to control it.
You could be hospitalised, and the "local recovery team" can do a lot of damage to your pride and joy if they just attach cables to a weak lashing eye and pull the crap out of it.
Fitting good recovery points should be a no brainer.
If theres an obvious recovery point they will use it, we see accident damaged cars come in for work on the back of trucks where the recovery drivers have caused just as much damage as the crash.


Gaz

so your relying on a rear locking diff and LSD front to get you out of trouble? They will certainly help, but your traction will still be limited by your choice of rubber. Atleast with a winch or recovery vehicle these factors do not come into it. If your travelling with a group this may not be a problem, but as a solo vehicle, i wouldnt risk it (terrain dependent).

G

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