Having come back from Libya where I had to push the 300tdi to its absolute limit, am considering going down the Land Cruiser route. You have to cosset a Land Rover, and there was no time for it in the dunes and it seems unfair to have to be so brutal to it. So I fear she's got to go.

The top end speed, low down torque and build quality of the Land Cruiser beckon despite my fondness for the 110.

Have read Chris's chapter on Land Cruisers and see that the 80 series is recommended.

Can anyone recommend a source where I might find out more about the models on offer in the UK.

Is the 3 litre Turbo diesel comparitively gutless? I'm thinking that perhaps I'm best off with the classic straight six with an LPG conversion to get me down through Europe? Any thoughts?

Hi ctc,

That is very spooky! I came to the same conclusion in very similar circumstances. Crossing the Ubari must affect people in a strange way;-)

Send me a PM when you feel like having a chat. I am also in London and I guess I could give you a few ideas.


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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

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Roman (UK)

Roman, do not seem to be able to send you an email. Would you mind dropping me a line to my email address?

"You have to cosset a Land Rover"

*amazed*

since when?

(Two Defender 110s, 10,000 desert miles in them last year incl Great Sand Sea and Abu Moharig dunes, desert travelling since 1977, NEVER cossetted but always looked after)

(Editted to add this quote...

“They were amazing vehicles, those Land Rovers. We refuelled Pat’s battered 110 once it had been checked over and it started first time (vehicle had been driven off a sheer drop and then it had rolled) In fact in our whole time in the field, during which we covered thousands of kilometres over some appalling terrain, we didn’t experience a problem with any of them. I would endorse Land Rover’s product any time”

Regimental Sergeant Major of 22SAS following operation in Iraq )

[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 26 April 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 26 April 2004).]

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

Think the problem with Landrovers, particularly Defenders are not the core mechancials which are good and fairly straightforward. I'm not suprised that the LR started after rolling, recent top gear enterprises have shown similar capabiliies with an old Toyota pick up. Essentially the engines are fairly simple and robust. The key annoying factors that I find with the Defender are the lack of general power requiring one to work the engine quite hard. Combine this with a heavily loaded expedition Defender and the economy of a small engine rapidly disappears. The other annoying factor is the small things that go wrong such as light bulbs that keep needing to be changed. the roof curling by the top of the windscreen causing the lining to sag, etc. etc. However at the same time I don't like the height of TLC 75 and 78 series troop carriers. I want at least a double cab so the pick up isn't much use, the only one I would really look at is a 100 series and these are both expensive and far more importantly look expensive leading to a great chance of problems. I appreciate that TLCs are probably more reliable but I still haven't found one of their products that would move me away from a Defender. Only my view however.

As to the specific SAS quote above, if I was in a heavily armed LR in a remote part of the desert, I wouldn't be that worried about a broken tail light for example and possibility of fines from a local policeman. However for a traveller this is more significant. Equally if I was running an LR with the Army funding it, I wouldn't be fussed if minor things went wrong and quite impressed with the core mechanicals. Offroading in someone elses vehicle when they are paying is always more fun. Unfortunately as this isn't the case and I do have to fund anything that goes wrong, I am far more concerned when minor things go wrong as they all cost me money.

[This message has been edited by Toby2 (edited 26 April 2004).]

I agree with the 'lack of power' theme, though I find that driving styles can adapt to cope with terrain (incl big dunes) in different ways (as Toyota driving styles adapt to cope with the lesser articulation of TLCs compared to Defenders). Id certainly appreciate a bigger bootful of horses when I put my foot down but I guess Land Rover have kept small engine sizes to avoid fuel and tax problems in their home market?
Certainly with the Td5 I think theyve gone as far as they can with the 2.5 litre idea.

I havent found the niggling flaws and faults that you describe in either of my two One Tens, nor the military 109s and 110s that I used to drive, but see last paragraph.

My post was a gut reaction to the word 'cosset'. Jeeps need cossetting, yes (especially their transmissions), Suzukis, yes, but in my experience not Rovers (Or TLCs! Though I do find their clutches suspect)

Mind you I have to be careful. Both my Defenders are from the early 90s. I can well believe that build quality and toughness has deteriorated since then in favour of creature comforts, especially recently.

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

That's going to develop into another of my favorite threads, the top one being, of course, about the superiority of Christmas over Easter.

May I kindly suggest that, no matter which transport you chose, the main point is to get THERE AND BACK and have fun all along the way. If you can achieve it in a beach buggy, ARO, or a LR, you have even more reasons for satisfaction.

LCs are for the lazy old gits, like me, who want comfort and the minimum of fuss, just to plod along without worrying about the small bits like the engine revving out of whack, turbo packing up, broken axles and diffs, and the legendary oil leaks, etc.

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

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Roman (UK)

<<May I kindly suggest that, no matter which transport you chose, the main point is to get THERE AND BACK and have fun all along the way. If you can achieve it in a beach buggy, ARO, or a LR, you have even more reasons for satisfaction. >>

Quite correct Come to that, I tried a m'bike the other day and may have been smitten by that bug too (ooohhhdear)

<<LCs are for the lazy old gits, like me, who want comfort and the minimum of fuss, just to plod along without worrying about the small bits like the engine revving out of whack, turbo packing up, broken axles and diffs, and the legendary oil leaks, etc.>>

hehehe except that I havent actually experienced *any* of those on the LRs Ive driven.. and there have been a few (mind you Ive seen my share of busted springs and burned clutches on TLCs *evil grin*)

(can we have a new bucket of mud please)

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

"LCs are for the lazy old gits, like me"

If you are lazy then I am positively subterranean.

In my tour experience LRs never fail to get through the dunes but like any 2.5 they are at the limit as ctc and Roman have found which makes driving effortful if you do it for a living. And that articulation myth is long obsolete by the time you've added H/D coils to carry a desert load: see the 80/Discovery/61 ascent at the end of 'Algeria 2000' vid (OK, we all broke bits...). Anyway TLC (+ Merc-G, Pinz, Mog, etc) offer OE axle diff locks to get round this (not that they - or radical articulation - make much difference in the dunes, like Runner said, it's driving styles and adapting to your machine (+ tyre pressure and all the rest...)

Anyway, getting back to cts question: Your choice in the UK may be limited but why even consider a petrol six on LPG (except they may be cheaper to buy). Go for the diesel six TD imported from Japan if not from the UK, or an African/Australian spec 105 (100-ish body with a 78 engine and trans). That willbe a vehicle to last.

I hear the more sophisticated and complex 3-litre four Prado/Hilux engine is very good and can be much more economical, but the car itself is a bit small and flashy for a desert hack.

CS

Forgot to mention - my TLC/LR views (and much else besides) have been refined since the 2000 edition, so don't take that as the last word

[This message has been edited by Chris Scott (edited 28 April 2004).]

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Morocco Overland 4 (2025) • Trans Morocco Trail

<<And that articulation myth is long obsolete by the time you've added H/D coils to carry a desert load:>>

Granted, ("myth"??? funny choice of word) though given modifications (ie fiddling with springs) you can turn anything into anything - I bet you could add a Rolls Royce Merlin from a Spitfire into a Series One LR if you had a nutty enough engineer and a decent budget (and if you want a test driver, Im your man)

(ISTR someone actually DID this with a stretched Rolls saloon a few years ago and RR took him to court to make him remove the Flying lady from the front...)

IMHO I prefer to leave vehicles in factory condition as much as poss - they are usually that way for a reason and spares are easier to get in remote areas - OME springs etc are not easy to find in the *rse end of nowhere!

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

In the game ranging profession in South Africa there was no comparison between Cruisers and Landies - TLCs totally outclassed the Landies. The 4.2 diesel straight six is a dream in rough stuff. I imagine the preference for TLC by banditary fellas is a useful consideration and having grown up with series II and III on the farm - they're a treat to work on. The bugger with the Landie is that it's just such a loveable thing - you wanna give it a name. TLCs just another machine.

No offence intended to LR's. Mine has proved itself capable of everything I have come across and selling it will be a difficult ( she has a name and for character you cant beat a Land Rover).

The point is that as a commercial expedition vehicle which has to cover large distances, with a heavy payload, and which is driven by clients the Land Rover is not right. I'm looking for a vehicle with more cc (esp low down torque), a more robust gearbox and a higher top-end to make the above easier for all concerned.

On the cosset issue, I bet you do without realising it (and nothing wrong with that anyway). I know I dont like thrashing my LR, watching clients drive it badly turns my hair grey. She has always been run on synthetic oil and anything I can do to make life pleasant for her I'll do.

Re Land Cruisers am pursuing the 105 option and the 100 series VX six cylinder turbo diesel thanks for the input. Initial preference for petrol straight six was availability of parts in Noth Africa, relatively cheap fuel and loads of torque.



[This message has been edited by ctc (edited 03 May 2004).]

Duggaboy...

<<In the game ranging profession in South Africa there was no comparison between Cruisers and Landies - TLCs totally outclassed the Landies.>>

According to a friend of mine who has a ranch on part of the Kruger National Park (and has just driven SA-UK overland) there isnt that much to choose between them - his TLC (bought as part of a tax deal, hence vehicle choice) broke down repeatedly on his trip (esp wheelbearings, which surprised me) and he now calls it a 'Toytota' and wants a Rover....

<<The 4.2 diesel straight six is a dream in rough stuff.>>

Agreed

<<I imagine the preference for TLC by banditary fellas is a useful consideration>>

What about various army special forces units (Aus, NZ, Brazil, US Army, UK, Oman, Saudi, etc) choosing LRs? Maybe bandits choose TLCs in the Sahara as the parts are easier to get when you shoot folk up..... (given that TLCs are more common in the Sahara)

ctc:

<<I'm looking for a vehicle with more cc (esp low down torque), a more robust gearbox and a higher top-end to make the above easier for all concerned.>>

completely agree - Solihull must be bats to carry on with the 2.5 litre thing.

Moreover, I cant see them following TLCs with bigger engines - they are going for the Chelsea farmer nowadays, not the bundu-basher. Defender's days as a serious expedition hack are numbered.

<<On the cosset issue, I bet you do without realising it (and nothing wrong with that anyway).>>

Like a tool or a horse I care about, I will look after them, yes (and anyone who drives a 4x4 in rough country and doesnt is mental, if you ask me). However I will not hesitate to hammer the *rses off both 110s if the terrain or circumstances demand it. Both vehicles always shrug and get on with the job, and them wait for the next time.

My point isnt that TLCs are any worse or better than LRs, each reflects a different preferred driving style; I just cant imagine the word 'cosset' being associated with any active expedition LR of modern vintage (as opposed to one of the older Series trucks).

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....