What I mean is, brand loyalty aside, why is it that Landcruiser's and Hilux's seem hold together better than anything else? What is it that keeps them from rattling apart after decades of third-world real-world abuse that would relegate other makes to the scrap heap?

Did Toyota use a different method of fastening on the bodies and bits, heavier frames, better bolts, or what? I used to think all Japanese makes are about the same, but from what I've read and experienced, Toyota's seem to always come out on top when the going gets--and stays--hard.

I know the Landcruisers are heavy duty, but the Hiluxs are pretty basic, so why are they 'better' than (or should I say why do they have a better reputation than) Mitsubishi's, Isuzu's, or Nissan's, for example? I wonder if it's hype or truth...

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It's an interesting question! Not another toyo Vs L/R...
We have bought over the last 5-6 years probably 20+ Nissan D22 pickups. The South African built one ("Hardbody") falls apart much much faster than the Japanese built one. I asked a similar question to a CAT dealer engineer with 20 years experience and he said the same thing - a ZA built 140G grader is much less solid and tends to suffer metal fatigue much faster than the Jap built one. He reckoned steel quality had a lot to do with it. We found that Nissan tend to have really strong drive trains and engines, but bodies and suspension not as long lasting as Toyo. Toyo are not invulnerable though! The gearbox synchromesh particularly on 1st and 2nd tend to go pretty fast, injection pumps can wear quite quickly too, but apart from that they do tend to last.
We change the D22 pickups after 2 years, and by that time they are pretty shot. Landcruisers we change at 4 years, and still are in pretty good shape. But really I don't know for sure why!
Gil

Reliability.

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Enzo

Because in the early 1980's Toyota mass produced and then sold on at a vastly reduced cost about 3 million of the flatbed trucks, they discovered that they could make more money in the long run selling parts to the 3mill+ then in the short run by having expensive products, this was then a mindbender as it hadn't been done before.

This mind set won them Most of SE/Asia, Africa, South America who imported vast numbers of the trucks along with the spares that they would need. That's why they are the MOST COMMON truck in the world, I've seen them everywhere and in every state of disrepair that you can imagine, mostly farmers and warlords have the worst examples.

Now if only Land Rover or Hummer had that foresight, I did this marketing model at Uni business studies, very very effective.

Maybe true, but whether their truck marketing was very successful or not how do you explain their amazing penetration of the 4x4 market. Including markets where there is practically bugger all 'marketing' media. The marketing issue (i.e. people saying Toyo's success is because of marketing) might be valid in more developed places, but I reckon it still is not the real explanation as to why Toyos are perceived to be better!! There does seem to be a genuine longevity issue which explains why a hard bitten desert taxi operator is rattlling around in a 60 series and not a Mitsu/Isuz etc. They do tend to be valued other all others by those that really need longevity and reliability. It can't only be a price thing as the landcruiser 79 pickup is way more expensive than say a D22 - not surprisingly.
Gil

Sighs, The Flat Beds I was refering to are the 4x4s. HILux etc are the modern versions, same as the OZ 'ut' (Utility) the new ones have the interchangble cargo pods. If it has a cab connected to a flat bed and can pull sh*t loads then it's a flat bed truck isn't it, my god was that such a stretch of the imagination?



They sell them cheap on average (todays prices), HILux as an example
Thailand £5,000 + extras
Cambodia £4,250 + extras
UK £11,000 + extras
Don't know about Africa

If you ever get to travel to SE/Asia you will see the bill boards 100 feet hi with the adverts, if you drive down any road you will see loads and loads of shops selling tires, bull bars, bed conversions and my favorite spares.

If stolen bikes coming from Japan end up in Thailand/Cambodia where do you think the stolen 4x4s from Thailand/Cambodia/Malyasia/Oz and the USA end up? Maybe Africa by chance! didn't you ever notice how in the African Toyota's in the BBC the news items are older versions?


As for longevity, the EU is cold and wet and corrosion is rife due to the gritting over the winter, whereas in the hotter climates there's a lot less rust so the bodies last longer again it isn't rocket science, Just the Shocks tend to go due to the bad roads and overloading.

I am not going to mix in this discussion, no I am not, am not not not......

damn,

Toyota are simply better.... na nana na na ....

cheers,

Noel
exploreafrica.web-log.nl

I don't have much experience of working on LRs, but working on an 80 series LC last year with the owner who used to be a dedicated LR owner he raised a number of points.

The main gist of comparing all the key components like hubs, diffs, etc on his 80 series to his last Discovery (series II I think) was that the LC had much more heavy duty components that were better thought through and better quality.

I think this is borne out in the reliability side of things and that LC need less protection and fettling than LRs.

It is probably why LCs have out sold LRs 20 times around the world

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Cheers,

Julian Voelcker
Overland Cruisers - Specialising in Land Cruiser preparation and servicing.

Juddadred,
sorry if I came across too strong in questioning your marketing theory - not my intention, I only wanted to know how the marketing issue holds up in areas where there is little or no marketing.
BTW:
-World's best ever selling "truck" or p/up is Ford F-Series pickups
-Hilux light duty 4x4 pickup on sale since 1969 under the name Hilux, there was no real light duty 4x4 prior to the Hilux, the Landcruiser (heavier duty) was really named (at least) in 1954, although it's origins were WWII. So I don't really know what you mean when you say that Hilux are the modern ones?
- I suspect you are referring to 75 and 79 series pickups (landcruisers) when you talk about "older" ones. Easy done as they do look old fashioned due to having the same body style for 23 years almost without change. Easy to confuse the models in Africa if you are watching the BBC - easier to ID in the flesh so to speak.

Landrover had an even better earlier marketing model - called the British Empire... and they still dropped the ball!

Hummer doing just fine with their marketing model - if you want to follow celebs/rappers and the US Army that is :-)

Cheers,
Gil
(tongue firmly in cheek and not trying at all to be rude)

Forgot to add that Julian and Noel are right of course!!! But seriously, pull the half shaft on a Landcruiser and put it next to one from a Defender and see!

So it comes down to design, components, engineering, and assembly and in that case, I think the Patrol/Safari and Landcruiser are pretty much on par with each other.

But where does that leave the Defender--how much less durable (for lack of a better term) is it really? I know Defender defenders love their Defenders, and probably for good reason. But what are some of those reasons (beyond patriotism)?

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If you must really get there on time get a Toy.
If you wanna enjoy every inch of a trip with no specific destination get a real L.R.

Real Land Rovers are not made for slaves of time


Fair winds and following seas (or sands) !

I have never owned a 4x4 but did work in the automotive industry for 8 years supplying assembly equipment to all the major manufacturers.

Two major factors.....
Quality Control
Quality of Components

The Japanese seem better at this than Europeans. The Europeans have automated Quality control trusting feedback from production machines. The operators who assemble your cars are always finding ways to cheat the processes. The Japanese also seem better at motivating staff, even in UK based plants.

The body on a LR Discovery is held on by about 20 'self tapping' bolts !!!!

OR...

If you want to go overlanding take a LR.

If you want to make it back in one peice, go in a Toyota

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Cheers,

Julian Voelcker
Overland Cruisers - Specialising in Land Cruiser preparation and servicing.

Some reasons:
They are durable vehicles, but need a degree of pampering, concern and spanner work. They also have a certain look and image that the Jap wagons don't really have - IMHO this applies to a lot of really well engineered Japanese cars that just don't have the design aspect as well sorted as Euro/Brit cars. They are also easily understood by DIY/Bush mechanics. Also a huge range of spares/aftermarket stuff available, particularly in the UK, whereas a lot of Toyo stuff doesn't really exist in the UK or is very expensive and imported (often from Oz). They are also easier to modify, drill and prepare. The expertise (particularly in UK) is more available when it comes to spannering and modification.