 |
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 43
|
|
|
Why are Toyota's best?
What I mean is, brand loyalty aside, why is it that Landcruiser's and Hilux's seem hold together better than anything else? What is it that keeps them from rattling apart after decades of third-world real-world abuse that would relegate other makes to the scrap heap?
Did Toyota use a different method of fastening on the bodies and bits, heavier frames, better bolts, or what? I used to think all Japanese makes are about the same, but from what I've read and experienced, Toyota's seem to always come out on top when the going gets--and stays--hard.
I know the Landcruisers are heavy duty, but the Hiluxs are pretty basic, so why are they 'better' than (or should I say why do they have a better reputation than) Mitsubishi's, Isuzu's, or Nissan's, for example? I wonder if it's hype or truth...
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ghana
Posts: 289
|
|
|
It's an interesting question! Not another toyo Vs L/R...
We have bought over the last 5-6 years probably 20+ Nissan D22 pickups. The South African built one ("Hardbody") falls apart much much faster than the Japanese built one. I asked a similar question to a CAT dealer engineer with 20 years experience and he said the same thing - a ZA built 140G grader is much less solid and tends to suffer metal fatigue much faster than the Jap built one. He reckoned steel quality had a lot to do with it. We found that Nissan tend to have really strong drive trains and engines, but bodies and suspension not as long lasting as Toyo. Toyo are not invulnerable though! The gearbox synchromesh particularly on 1st and 2nd tend to go pretty fast, injection pumps can wear quite quickly too, but apart from that they do tend to last.
We change the D22 pickups after 2 years, and by that time they are pretty shot. Landcruisers we change at 4 years, and still are in pretty good shape. But really I don't know for sure why!
Gil
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK/ZW
Posts: 725
|
|
|
Why are Toyota's best?
Reliability.
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire
Posts: 373
|
|
|
Because in the early 1980's Toyota mass produced and then sold on at a vastly reduced cost about 3 million of the flatbed trucks, they discovered that they could make more money in the long run selling parts to the 3mill+ then in the short run by having expensive products, this was then a mindbender as it hadn't been done before.
This mind set won them Most of SE/Asia, Africa, South America who imported vast numbers of the trucks along with the spares that they would need. That's why they are the MOST COMMON truck in the world, I've seen them everywhere and in every state of disrepair that you can imagine, mostly farmers and warlords have the worst examples.
Now if only Land Rover or Hummer had that foresight, I did this marketing model at Uni business studies, very very effective.
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ghana
Posts: 289
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by juddadredd
Because in the early 1980's Toyota mass produced and then sold on at a vastly reduced cost about 3 million of the flatbed trucks, they discovered that they could make more money in the long run selling parts to the 3mill+ then in the short run by having expensive products, this was then a mindbender as it hadn't been done before.
This mind set won them Most of SE/Asia, Africa, South America who imported vast numbers of the trucks along with the spares that they would need. That's why they are the MOST COMMON truck in the world, I've seen them everywhere and in every state of disrepair that you can imagine, mostly farmers and warlords have the worst examples.
Now if only Land Rover or Hummer had that foresight, I did this marketing model at Uni business studies, very very effective.
|
Maybe true, but whether their truck marketing was very successful or not how do you explain their amazing penetration of the 4x4 market. Including markets where there is practically bugger all 'marketing' media. The marketing issue (i.e. people saying Toyo's success is because of marketing) might be valid in more developed places, but I reckon it still is not the real explanation as to why Toyos are perceived to be better!! There does seem to be a genuine longevity issue which explains why a hard bitten desert taxi operator is rattlling around in a 60 series and not a Mitsu/Isuz etc. They do tend to be valued other all others by those that really need longevity and reliability. It can't only be a price thing as the landcruiser 79 pickup is way more expensive than say a D22 - not surprisingly.
Gil
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire
Posts: 373
|
|
|
Sighs, The Flat Beds I was refering to are the 4x4s. HILux etc are the modern versions, same as the OZ 'ut' (Utility) the new ones have the interchangble cargo pods. If it has a cab connected to a flat bed and can pull sh*t loads then it's a flat bed truck isn't it, my god was that such a stretch of the imagination?
They sell them cheap on average (todays prices), HILux as an example
Thailand £5,000 + extras
Cambodia £4,250 + extras
UK £11,000 + extras
Don't know about Africa
If you ever get to travel to SE/Asia you will see the bill boards 100 feet hi with the adverts, if you drive down any road you will see loads and loads of shops selling tires, bull bars, bed conversions and my favorite spares.
If stolen bikes coming from Japan end up in Thailand/Cambodia where do you think the stolen 4x4s from Thailand/Cambodia/Malyasia/Oz and the USA end up? Maybe Africa by chance! didn't you ever notice how in the African Toyota's in the BBC the news items are older versions?
As for longevity, the EU is cold and wet and corrosion is rife due to the gritting over the winter, whereas in the hotter climates there's a lot less rust so the bodies last longer again it isn't rocket science, Just the Shocks tend to go due to the bad roads and overloading.
|
29 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 476
|
|
oi oi oi
I am not going to mix in this discussion, no I am not, am not not not......
damn,
Toyota are simply better.... na nana na na ....
cheers,
Noel
exploreafrica.web-log.nl
|
30 Jan 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ledbury, Herefordshire, UK
Posts: 324
|
|
I don't have much experience of working on LRs, but working on an 80 series LC last year with the owner who used to be a dedicated LR owner he raised a number of points.
The main gist of comparing all the key components like hubs, diffs, etc on his 80 series to his last Discovery (series II I think) was that the LC had much more heavy duty components that were better thought through and better quality.
I think this is borne out in the reliability side of things and that LC need less protection and fettling than LRs.
It is probably why LCs have out sold LRs 20 times around the world
__________________
Cheers,
Julian Voelcker
Overland Cruisers - Specialising in Land Cruiser preparation and servicing.
|
30 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ghana
Posts: 289
|
|
|
Juddadred,
sorry if I came across too strong in questioning your marketing theory - not my intention, I only wanted to know how the marketing issue holds up in areas where there is little or no marketing.
BTW:
-World's best ever selling "truck" or p/up is Ford F-Series pickups
-Hilux light duty 4x4 pickup on sale since 1969 under the name Hilux, there was no real light duty 4x4 prior to the Hilux, the Landcruiser (heavier duty) was really named (at least) in 1954, although it's origins were WWII. So I don't really know what you mean when you say that Hilux are the modern ones?
- I suspect you are referring to 75 and 79 series pickups (landcruisers) when you talk about "older" ones. Easy done as they do look old fashioned due to having the same body style for 23 years almost without change. Easy to confuse the models in Africa if you are watching the BBC - easier to ID in the flesh so to speak.
Landrover had an even better earlier marketing model - called the British Empire... and they still dropped the ball!
Hummer doing just fine with their marketing model - if you want to follow celebs/rappers and the US Army that is :-)
Cheers,
Gil
(tongue firmly in cheek and not trying at all to be rude)
|
30 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ghana
Posts: 289
|
|
|
Forgot to add that Julian and Noel are right of course!!! But seriously, pull the half shaft on a Landcruiser and put it next to one from a Defender and see!
|
30 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 43
|
|
|
So it comes down to design, components, engineering, and assembly and in that case, I think the Patrol/Safari and Landcruiser are pretty much on par with each other.
But where does that leave the Defender--how much less durable (for lack of a better term) is it really? I know Defender defenders love their Defenders, and probably for good reason. But what are some of those reasons (beyond patriotism)?
|
30 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Alt Penedes, Barcelona
Posts: 130
|
|
|
If you must really get there on time get a Toy.
If you wanna enjoy every inch of a trip with no specific destination get a real L.R.
Real Land Rovers are not made for slaves of time
Fair winds and following seas (or sands) !
|
30 Jan 2008
|
 |
Gold Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Coventry
Posts: 126
|
|
|
I have never owned a 4x4 but did work in the automotive industry for 8 years supplying assembly equipment to all the major manufacturers.
Two major factors.....
Quality Control
Quality of Components
The Japanese seem better at this than Europeans. The Europeans have automated Quality control trusting feedback from production machines. The operators who assemble your cars are always finding ways to cheat the processes. The Japanese also seem better at motivating staff, even in UK based plants.
The body on a LR Discovery is held on by about 20 'self tapping' bolts !!!!
|
30 Jan 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ledbury, Herefordshire, UK
Posts: 324
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by armadillo
If you must really get there on time get a Toy.
If you wanna enjoy every inch of a trip with no specific destination get a real L.R.
|
OR...
If you want to go overlanding take a LR.
If you want to make it back in one peice, go in a Toyota 
__________________
Cheers,
Julian Voelcker
Overland Cruisers - Specialising in Land Cruiser preparation and servicing.
|
31 Jan 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ghana
Posts: 289
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4WDTraveller
So it comes down to design, components, engineering, and assembly and in that case, I think the Patrol/Safari and Landcruiser are pretty much on par with each other.
But where does that leave the Defender--how much less durable (for lack of a better term) is it really? I know Defender defenders love their Defenders, and probably for good reason. But what are some of those reasons (beyond patriotism)?
|
Some reasons:
They are durable vehicles, but need a degree of pampering, concern and spanner work. They also have a certain look and image that the Jap wagons don't really have - IMHO this applies to a lot of really well engineered Japanese cars that just don't have the design aspect as well sorted as Euro/Brit cars. They are also easily understood by DIY/Bush mechanics. Also a huge range of spares/aftermarket stuff available, particularly in the UK, whereas a lot of Toyo stuff doesn't really exist in the UK or is very expensive and imported (often from Oz). They are also easier to modify, drill and prepare. The expertise (particularly in UK) is more available when it comes to spannering and modification.
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...
2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)
Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.
Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes.
(ONLY US RESIDENTS and currently has a limit of 60 days.)
Ripcord Evacuation Insurance is available for ALL nationalities.
What others say about HU...
"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia
"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK
"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia
"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA
"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada
"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa
"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia
"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany
Lots more comments here!
Every book a diary
Every chapter a day
Every day a journey
Refreshingly honest and compelling tales: the hights and lows of a life on the road. Solo, unsupported, budget journeys of discovery.
Authentic, engaging and evocative travel memoirs, overland, around the world and through life.
All 8 books available from the author or as eBooks and audio books
Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!
New to Horizons Unlimited?
New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!
Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.
Read more about Grant & Susan's story
Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
|
|
|
helps answer the question - Why Go? Inspirational stories by veteran travellers Greg Frazier (5 times RTW), Peter and Kay Forwood (193 countries), Tiffany Coates (Mongolia Mayhem) and Rene Cormier (University of Gravel Roads).
Get Ready! covers planning, paperwork, medical and many other topics! "Inspirational and Awesome!" See the trailer here!
What stuff do I need - riding gear, clothing, camping gear, first aid kit, tires, maps and GPS? What don't I need? How do I pack it all in? Lots of opinions from over 150 travellers!
Ladies on the Loose! For the first time ever, a motorcycle travel DVD made for women, by women! These intrepid women share their tips to help you plan your own motorcycle adventure. They also answer the women-only questions, and entertain you with amazing tales from the road! Presented by Lois Pryce, veteran solo traveller through South America and Africa and author of 'Lois on the Loose', and 'Red Tape and White Knuckles.'
Cotton or synth sweat-wicking t-shirts with the cool Horizons Unlimited graphic on the front and a snappy slogan (changing every year) on the back.
Show your route on your panniers. Great conversation starter when you meet people on the road!
Motorcycle and travel books to inspire and inform you!
The definitive guide to planning your motorcycle adventure! This insanely ambitious 2-year project has produced an informative and entertaining 5-part, 18 hour video series. "The ultimate round the world rider's how-to!" MCN UK.
oi oi oi
Linear Mode
