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**Walkabout** · #**211** 23 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliBaba

Still I think that this might change,

I think that it is changing and will continue to do so (I might pop back to this thread in another couple of years or so to read the latest thoughts here).

There is an overview in the link below which provides some ideas about the market related to trail riding.
GPS - Some options - RibbleValleyTRF

**tmotten** · #**212** 23 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrand

For the sake of objectivity, I’ll reply Seouljoe

It is clear that you, for some unknown reason, dislike Garmin. This is your choice and your right. You have posted obsessively on that subject for a long time ‘ad nauseatum’ and it really serves no purpose.

It would greatly help others if you could refrain from this from now on and avoid posting misleading information driven by your above feeling. Allow others to draw their own conclusions based on objective and impartial reviews. It is important to provide as accurate information as possible.

From what you have posted, and I say this without wishing to cause you any offense SeoulJoe, it is clear that you have very little understanding of real Navigation and even less of the Monterra as evidenced below- replying to the points you raised:

* All electronic devices from computers/satnavs/mobile phones/smart phones/diagnostic devices/ TV's etc. have had software updates- It is just the way things are. Most are designed to resolve issues and offer improvements although, at times, not always!

* The Monterra’s original compass drift has been corrected quite some time ago.

* The unit’s battery longevity is virtually the same as the Montana satnav unless, of course, you use the new and additional Apops - some power hungry-running under Android such as Bluetooth/Wifi / Skype etc. – most people use a powered mount.

* The music level, at maximum, is loud enough to remain loud at 70mph, being the local legal limit in the UK and close to most in Europe. I cannot comprehend the need for having music blaring out from speakers mounted on a motorcycle; it seems rather puerile and attention seeking to me.

* Your comment: “The unit cannot direct you in a straight line to a point in the middle of an open field if you follow the map pointer.” Is misleading and totally incorrect.
The Monterra can (indeed as can the Montana and 64ST) navigate ‘point to point’ in a straight line with or without mapping using either the pointer or compass pointer. There are many routing options within the Monterra’s settings to allow you to do this as well as using the icon Sight-N’-Go option which is particularly useful on trails and/or featureless terrain.

I understand your love of smart-phones and they are indeed excellent. I’m probably as attached to mine as you are to yours!

What would be useful ,as you appear to know about smart phones, would be for you to take the time to post your in depth review of the ones you are using and feel are particularly good for travel to help others decide.

Gunt86
FYI- in addition to the huge number of POI’s within City Navigator 2015-2 (and I am going to guess is similar in other Garmin CityNav products) I have databases of currently just over 318,000 of them- plus the 31,007 campsites contained in Archie’s Europe.
These have worked in the 278C, 60CSX, 62S, Montana, 64ST and lastly the Monterra.

=> There is a way of creating your own POI files in .csv format which enables a very large amount ** of waypoints to be available in a small (-er file than a .gpx) file- the only downside of the .csv (or .gpx) files is that they cannot be edited once in the unit if a waypoint if found to be wrong/missing as you are going along. I hope this is useful to you and feel free to pm me if you'd like to know 'how to' (assuming you don't know! apologies if you do.)

** very large compared to various limits in different satnavs- of 'live-aka editable' waypoints.

I always travel with paper maps ( Rese Know-How are very good if available) and a compass as well as my smart phone and sat nav which both provide useful additional information and navigation.

Wow, this sounds really condescending.

You might as well have posted this.

To tell someone he doesn't understand "real" navigation because he doesn't use a dedicated GPS is misleading to new users. Most good navigators look at GPS users as poor navigators (and that's putting it lightly). Particularly motorists who use them. We're not talking about crossing the dunes in the Sahara here, but about knowing which direction to turn on engineered infrastructure.

The guy is the OP of a thread which aims to give an alternative to the old and provides continues updates. As has already been pointed out, there aren't many, if any, of those threads. There are a few remarks on Garmin, but typically as a response (from memory) or to point out the option. There is more useful info in this thread than in any other Garmin fan boy thread in my opinion. Calling yourself impartial and objective but going on about the Monterra is ridiculous.

To me this thread is awesome in providing more understanding of the capabilities of a tool which you likely already own, and possibly more than one. There is the redundancy argument dealt with, even though I don't understand the resistance to a swiss army knife approach (1 items for multiple uses). But to keep it informative let me summarize some other aspects.

Usability is a no-brainer. It can do exactly the same. It's up to the individual to adopt and accept that or not.

Screen in direct sunlight is still open to debate to me. I'm on the fence. Never really found it without problems on anything, but manageable overall.

Accuracy, it's as accurate. At least with Backcountry Navigator it is in my experience. I use it for backcountry hikes and cycle trips with topo maps. If I'm on a ridge, the map shows me dead on. Pretty much the same under thick canopy cover with it in my pocket. Never lose a signal. Took the wrong trail this weekend (my bad, should have looked on the map more often) and had to bush bash for a kilometer through dense forest, up slope to the ridge to find the trail. Never skipped a beat. The way in is either dead on, on the way back, or within a metre or 2. Eyesight in other words.

Battery is no issue. I still have half a battery left on an S4 with an 8 hour hike. Plenty of backup battery and solar packs available. On a bike this is a non-issue.

Robustness is no issue to me, although I’m taking Noel’s experiences seriously. Vibration possibly. But you don’t have to have the thing on the bars, a tank bag map case would do. My mate has his on the bars in an otterbox on single-trail rides in Queensland; Australia. Never had any issues. Don’t even “need” it in sight in all cases. There are still road signs and/ or gut instincts to follow. Real old school navigation I guess.

Touch screen with gloves is no issue. Plenty of winter gloves are now marketed as e-gloves. Bike gloves are a bit behind possibly, but there are plenty of option. The easiest one is to sew a tiny bit of capacitive thread in the finger. Well documented.

I’ve been an early adopter or Garmin buying their first Etrex (before they called it that I think, can’t remember) on a “just in case” basis. It didn’t have a map view so you had to find your location on a topo paper map. It was a good safety net, but in reality I didn’t need it. Used it in Mongolia on a motor bike trip once and a horse trip before that a few times. Then the 60 Csx which I did liked. Sucked for browsing, but following a pre-set trail (don’t use routes) was convenient. Maps sucked outside of the west at the time. Used smellybiker’s maps in South America, which were pretty decent. But liked it more for tracking the route for looking back in years out of interest. It also worked every time, except once when it rebooted itself and cleared the memory mid trip. Had no computer, so I was stuffed. Wouldn’t have had that issue with a smartphone, or the newer wifi version.
Got a Rino now for the buddy tracking function, and got to say. I think it’s shit. Garmin touch screens, the once I came across (Nuvi and Zumo’s included) sucks compared to phone ones. Wish I had the Csx back. I lost it on a single-trail ride.

Overall I’ve spent a fair bit of money on Garmin stuff, and in reality I didn’t have to do that. Could have spent it on the trip itself. THAT is the point of this thread that will help new bike travelers think about it a bit differently before they join the other Zumo or generally Garmin fan boys and drop a tonne of coin on something that is a luxury first, convenient second, but in some people’s mind redundant generally.

**seouljoe** · #**213** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrand

For the sake of objectivity, I’ll reply Seouljoe

It is clear that you, for some unknown reason, dislike Garmin. This is your choice and your right. You have posted obsessively on that subject for a long time ‘ad nauseatum’ and it really serves no purpose.

It would greatly help others if you could refrain from this from now on and avoid posting misleading information driven by your above feeling. Allow others to draw their own conclusions based on objective and impartial reviews. It is important to provide as accurate information as possible.

From what you have posted, and I say this without wishing to cause you any offense SeoulJoe, it is clear that you have very little understanding of real Navigation and even less of the Monterra as evidenced below- replying to the points you raised:

* All electronic devices from computers/satnavs/mobile phones/smart phones/diagnostic devices/ TV's etc. have had software updates- It is just the way things are. Most are designed to resolve issues and offer improvements although, at times, not always!

* The Monterra’s original compass drift has been corrected quite some time ago.

* The unit’s battery longevity is virtually the same as the Montana satnav unless, of course, you use the new and additional Apops - some power hungry-running under Android such as Bluetooth/Wifi / Skype etc. – most people use a powered mount.

* The music level, at maximum, is loud enough to remain loud at 70mph, being the local legal limit in the UK and close to most in Europe. I cannot comprehend the need for having music blaring out from speakers mounted on a motorcycle; it seems rather puerile and attention seeking to me.

* Your comment: “The unit cannot direct you in a straight line to a point in the middle of an open field if you follow the map pointer.” Is misleading and totally incorrect.
The Monterra can (indeed as can the Montana and 64ST) navigate ‘point to point’ in a straight line with or without mapping using either the pointer or compass pointer. There are many routing options within the Monterra’s settings to allow you to do this as well as using the icon Sight-N’-Go option which is particularly useful on trails and/or featureless terrain.

I understand your love of smart-phones and they are indeed excellent. I’m probably as attached to mine as you are to yours!

What would be useful ,as you appear to know about smart phones, would be for you to take the time to post your in depth review of the ones you are using and feel are particularly good for travel to help others decide.

Gunt86
FYI- in addition to the huge number of POI’s within City Navigator 2015-2 (and I am going to guess is similar in other Garmin CityNav products) I have databases of currently just over 318,000 of them- plus the 31,007 campsites contained in Archie’s Europe.
These have worked in the 278C, 60CSX, 62S, Montana, 64ST and lastly the Monterra.

=> There is a way of creating your own POI files in .csv format which enables a very large amount ** of waypoints to be available in a small (-er file than a .gpx) file- the only downside of the .csv (or .gpx) files is that they cannot be edited once in the unit if a waypoint if found to be wrong/missing as you are going along. I hope this is useful to you and feel free to pm me if you'd like to know 'how to' (assuming you don't know! apologies if you do.)

** very large compared to various limits in different satnavs- of 'live-aka editable' waypoints.

I always travel with paper maps ( Rese Know-How are very good if available) and a compass as well as my smart phone and sat nav which both provide useful additional information and navigation.

As Robbie says ,,

**TheWarden** · #**214** 24 Sep 2014

Time this thread was locked imho

whilst the debate between phones/gps is of use to travellers the thread turned into a one man campaign after page 1.

I use both a phone and garmin gps and without fail the garmin is quicker and more accurate. Loading osm is a 2 stage process for the gps over a 1 stage on the phone, big deal when the gps show more info off the blackstuff.

I still can't find an app that provides the same level of detail in the maps or the same off road navigation ability. Sure there are some android apps which look good but none seem to have accurate maps of North Africa which renders them useless for me.

In the time I've had my gps, my phone has needed hundreds of sw updates and app udates, the garmin probably half a dozen at most

"recalculating recalculating" er - operator error or out of date maps, not the hardware.

Bertrand's well balanced post says it all, much more helpful than the one he responded to or the subsequent replies

What was that about workmen blaming their tools?

**seouljoe** · #**215** 24 Sep 2014

Remember ,, most of your navigation requirement ,, be it on the bike,, walking ,, cycling,,, cars ,, boats or small plane,, are free. For more details ,, a nominal USD 1 to USD 100 ,, you can travel through most of this small planet,, without getting lost ,, using these tools.

First url mentiones 1,500 camp sites POI, in the world. Free.

Idea is simple,, yes for free,, and yes with out low qualty hardware and software. With out the terrible after service hassle.

Only two years ago , I was travelling with a big 35mm camera ,, a note book ,, two smart phones and two garmins. Only thing that failed me were the garmins.

For the next trip ,, I will be carrying just two smart phones,, one beaten one for the handle bar,,, a good one as a back up, with my passport and credit cards,, inside my money belt.

New apps are keep coming like the Niagara,,

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...hone-app-78384

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...mytracks&hl=en

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....android&hl=en

Locus Map, Android GPS offline maps for hiking, geocaching

CyclingAbout.com – The Best Apps for GPS Navigation on a Smartphone

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...avigator&hl=en

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...apswithme.maps

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...com.sygic.aura

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...?id=net.osmand

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....maverick.lite

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ctor.navigator

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...hme.maps&hl=en

iPhone - Smartphone - TomTom

How to use Google Maps offline mode on iOS, Android - CNET

**seouljoe** · #**216** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkabout

I see that this thread has stood the test of time with multi-thousands of viewings and hundreds of replies even though it never did make it to become one of the exalted "stickies".

It's been running strongly for over 2 1/2 years.

Speaks for itself.

It was your bloody idea ,, that got us all into this madness! :confused1:

**seouljoe** · #**217** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunt86

I am guessing that the this whole debate is missing out exactly where and when gps devices are useful. A GPS device proves its worth in cities or when looking for a POI. A paper map will never be able to replicate this function. So paper maps as redundancy for a GPS unit is a non-starter.

The best maps I have seen for South America (where i travel) are all maps intended for Garmin installation. They are not Garmin branded, but they are third party maps made for Garmin. OSM is only one of these products. I also have the best paper maps for South America (Reise), and they are not sufficient for urban travel.

I don't use a smart phone for navigation when traveling so perhaps I am not aware of exactly all the apps available. In any case, aside from turn-by-turn navigation (essential in urban areas), the other item which is make or break for a nav system is the ability to have 1000's of custom POIs imported into the device. In my case, I am interested in POIs for camping. I need a device which can easily import those POIs from my computer (essential as that is where the POI file is prepared and created), and also display the notes of each POI in a clearly readable fashion (such as Garmin Nuvi).

Now go here ,, http://www.ioverlander.com/
read ,, then install the app on your phone,, go get the Walters Asia way points ,, with your phone, from the HUBB
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...aypoints-50860
His latest ,, then insert into the app.
You will get over 2,000 camp sites of the world. Plus there are tons more on the web. Read reviews ,, see the picture before adding to your POI

Europe GPS POI Files for Autoroute Aires, Wild Camping & Services | Europe By Camper - Travelling Europe By Motorhome

camping | POI Factory

In fact you can google ,, camp site poi by country or by region ,,
All free of course. Some 15,000 camp sites are mentioned.

**tmotten** · #**218** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWarden

Time this thread was locked imho

I still can't find an app that provides the same level of detail in the maps or the same off road navigation ability. Sure there are some android apps which look good but none seem to have accurate maps of North Africa which renders them useless for me.

What was that about workmen blaming their tools?

Than you haven't been paying attention and are blaming the tools before you know how to use them.

Don't advocate closure if you don't even do that because this thread has all that info.

**TheWarden** · #**219** 24 Sep 2014

Show my one iPhone App that replicates olafs topo maps for Morocco/Western Sahara or comes close to the detail

I be been following this thread for a long time and run my own side by side comparisons of osm on the phone and gps unit whilst on trips and the phone either need mobile data or does'nt provide the same detail

I could write at length picking up to biased views from some but really can't be bothered.

**tmotten** · #**220** 24 Sep 2014

I don't use iPhone. It's less than ideal for traveling to me with the dependence to iTunes.

But I'm sure Joe will pop by in a tick. Have you tried Avenza?

I would be surprised to hear that there aren't apps that let you geo reference topo maps. Haven't come across olafs topo maps so I don't know what they look like.

You've got the wrong app if you have accuracy issues though. As I said many times before, the Backcountry navigator doesn't have that issue at all, but the developer does have to do work on it to increase accuracy. It's not all in the hardware it seems.

**Threewheelbonnie** · #**221** 24 Sep 2014

Double post, sorry, b***d* advertising scripts slowing things to the point I can out type it!

Andy

**Threewheelbonnie** · #**222** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWarden

Time this thread was locked imho

?

I hope not. Lot's of useful info mixed in with the brand image/purchase guilt stuff.

I for one won't be buying anything else from TomTom (which replaced my Garmins after I also fell out with their less than useful attributes). I have to have the phone as a phone, so making it work as the navigation, music player, camera, thing for driving tent pegs into the ground is IMHO the way to go. Just getting going myself, hence Joe's info is great for me.

Andy

**garnaro** · #**223** 24 Sep 2014

A good GPS unit definitely has its advantages over using a phone (I'd say that the bargain variety like my Garmin 60csx had more disadvantages tho). Riding fast in the dirt following a mapped track for instance is much better with a good GPS.

What I find objectionable is the impression that I've gotten from some folks in the past that unless you have XY and Z bit of expensive kit, you will surely be in great peril. This seems contrary to the DIY spirit of moto adventuring, and has little basis in reality. Reality is that I've been riding around in Africa for a year using an Iphone 4 in a $20 case running a 2 generations old operating system, and a free app with no problems whatsoever.

**tmotten** · #**224** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by garnaro

A good GPS unit definitely has its advantages over using a phone (I'd say that the bargain variety like my Garmin 60csx had more disadvantages tho).

So that's become a crux point of the debate. What's the advantage?

I used to think so as well but can't really backup that view anymore.

**Walkabout** · #**225** 24 Sep 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by seouljoe

It was your bloody idea ,, that got us all into this madness! :confused1:

Hey, you've made the grade as a sticky thread sometime in the last 24 hours.
Congratulations - fame at last.
Just watch the viewing figures for your thread snowball now!

Besides, Madness are a great band.

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