Hi. It is possible now to have a PDA (palm or Pocket PC) with scanned maps (from CDs like you can get from Darr and Touratech) stored on the device. Then connect your GPS and you have a position shown on the map on the screen. It would mount on a bike like a GPS. I have seen PDA weatherproof cases, and even rugged PDAs.

General Questions
Do you think this would be USEFUL? Has anyone tried it? Would the small screen resoulution be good enough? Would the processing power be enough (eg for zooming) How much memory is needed for the maps?

ok now DISCUSS!!

thanks
Karim

karim@desertbiking.co.uk
www.desertbiking.co.uk

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karim@desertbiking.co.uk
www.desertbiking.co.uk

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www.desertbiking.co.uk

Hello!

I also want to know if anyone has done this. I know there is software available (Path-Away and DigiMap), and there are pages of cables and brackets in the TTech catalogue. (There have been similar threads to this in the Comms forum, but I don't think a proper answer has been arrived at yet.

...but is this stuff OK for proper desert use, not just hobby use in Germany? My PDA has a 320x320 pixel colour screen, and 128MB of removable memory, so surely it must be enough? It's fine for uploading digital phots and zooming / editing them...

I will be watching this one.

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=-=-= ON THE EDGE! =-=-=
My XR650L Pan-Med Expedition Site!

That’s exactly what I plan to do on my bike when I finish building it. I’ve tested all the components for this navigation system and have it working but haven’t been able to use it on a bike extensively.

What I did is put a Compaq PDA in an Otter Armor box for protection and mounted it right next to my old Garmin II+ which will get a TT mount instead of the flimsy plastic one it now sits in. I made a very short com cable to connect the two. I’ve decided to use a regular GPS instead of the dedicated PDA GPS since it’ll be a good backup. The antenna only PDA GPS receivers have no controls or display so they’re totally depended on the PDA for operations. If anything happens to the PDA or it’s DATA you’re screwed. Remember, you’re running MS Windows after all J.

The only problem I faced was with the PDA screen glare. This will depend greatly on your mounting position but with some sort of hood and cleaver mounting I think this could be avoided. I’ll spend more time on this when my bike is ready.

Useful? I think so. I tend to go somewhere and explore rather than travel from point A to point B so I prefer to have as much maps and info as possible with me. A PDA will help you carry lots of maps (memory permitting) and it can also store other info in form of text and pictures. It’s also a great journal although a bit awkward to write with.

Resolution? It’s a bit on the small side but it’s still a lot better than any bike mountable GPS unit out there. If you get a recent model with a lot of memory it will handle displaying and zooming maps pretty well. But don’t expect desktop performance.

The screens of the PDA units differ greatly and not all can display a good picture in the sun so make sure you try the one you like outdoors in the sun before you buy it.

How much memory will depend on the maps you’ll carry + 64 MB for the operating system and navigation application. I would say the very minimum is 128MB. However a better guide to how much memory you’ll need it to actually compile the maps you plan to take along, crop them, reduce the number of colors, convert them to a compressed format that is still readable by the navigation software an see how much that ended up to be. To save memory, take only the maps you’ll actually need. If you’re traveling 600km on a paved road then no need to load up the PDA with the surrounding topo maps.

I’ve seen rugged PDA ads in a couple of magazines. They look cool but they’re more expensive, much bulkier and usually less speced than regular models. I use my PDA at work on daily basis so I cannot lug this thing around; it defies the purpose. However if I were getting a PDA strictly for travel then I would definitely get a rugged one.

Hope this helps.

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.

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A.B.
OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.

Actually, Garmin now makes their own PDA/GPS device that uses PalmOS and can accept expandable SD memory cards. You also get a voice recorder, mp3 player and all the other goodies that PalmPilots have to offer. If you ask me, that's about the nicest gadget you could ask for short of also having a sat-phone built in. I would think that's much more handy than toting around two devices and having to wire both of them up.

Only problem is that you'd need to figure out a way to wire it to your bike with the supplied charging device since it uses Lithium Ion batteries. Maybe that's trivial, I just don't know what considerations there are in wiring that particular device to run on aux power.

Here's a link:
http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

Cheers,
Wright

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Wright Bagwell
http://www.geocities.com/wwbagwell/

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Wright Bagwell
http://www.geocities.com/wwbagwell/

I've started experimenting with an iPAQ and a GPS external receiver in my Patrol and it works well. I use everybody's favourite OziExplorer with satellite images downloaded from the NASA public domain site (I'll dig out the URL for it) and it works well. Be aware though that these maps take up HEAPS of room, so you will need loads of additional storage. I'm looking around for an expansion pack at the moment which can take Compact Flash memory cards to do this - not easy to come by in the UAE.

As AB said, the major issue is screen glare. Another issue (also already touched upon) is wiring it into the battery - less of an issue in a 4x4 I know, but still I dislike using the cigarette lighter socket in the vehicle for this.

AB is right to say use an additional GPS as well. I personally find the navigation views of OziExplorer CE less than brilliant, but them I'm a newbie with it and I'm sure I'll get used to it! It's always wise to have a back-up for the primary device. I still keep my Garmin 128 in the car - 'just for reassurance'.

The plusses of using this technology are numerous. I can surf the net with it when I can find a phone signal (here in the Emirates our GPRS phone coverage is magnificent). You can process your E-Mail on the move this way as well. I can use all the other functions of a PDA as well, so it's uses are only limited by your imagination.

Good luck with it.

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Jon Harbour

Middle East Off-Roader
http://www.mid-east-off-road.com

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Jon Harbour

Middle East 4x4

Hi all,
I need some convincing that personal computer technology of today is robust enough to entrust one’s life to it. After all, for the applications described above think of it as a life support system. Even electronic component manufacturers normally warn you against the use of their products in LS systems without their express approval. So why do we want to take chances with PDA’s which are hardly reliable enough to store a telephone directory?
I’ve been thinking of various options, too, and decided I will be better off by using disposable computing rather than an expensive and hard-to-replace special purpose PC, which after all is only a little better than a high street gizmo. Data storage is cheap, and a few solid state disks to duplicate the OS and data don’t take much space. A one or two spare PDA’s (or a PC’s in a 4x4 vehicle) bought second-hand for a few quid will possibly last longer than an expensive, all singing-all-dancing latest model. What do you think?
Jon, checking email on the move? I thought we go to the Sahara to get away from emails and all that IT barrage , but perhaps I got it wrong ...

Rgds,
Roman (UK)

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Roman (UK)

I think everyone is in agreement that no-one is going to trust their lives to a PDA, The principle here (in my view)is to discuss the USEFULLNESS of the device. For desertbiking in remote areas, most navigation uses back checking where you think you are with a GPS and map/routes etc (to help). I think traditional navigation methods are a priority.

IF you intend to DEPEND on it I believe you must have 2 of everything plus a satellite phone (or 2!)with (previously arranged)the ability for a rescue, but usually you dont need all this when you have 2 vehicles as a minimum in the group.

I think the usefullness in the PDA kit comes from carrying more maps at various scales /resoltions, quick access to approximate positions. overlay of GPS routes/options. saving/managing GPS routes and data/backup. generally as a 'nice to have'. These days alot of people might have one ANYWAY on their trip, so whay not take some advantage from it.

OK
great contributions so far!!
Karim

Email might be nice when in towns and to help oragnise the usual bureaucracies of travel. Email via satellite phone seems expensive. They can send text easily enough though.




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karim@desertbiking.co.uk
www.desertbiking.co.uk

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www.desertbiking.co.uk

Hi,

just to inform there is another way of handling data-storage :
I plan for my panamaricana-trip to use a combination of Garmin V with a sub-notebook.
For example a Toshiba PORTÉGÉ 3010CT,
size 257 x 216 x 19,8 mm x 1.3 kg
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=18536 .
Around 6Gb of storage capacity should be sufficient to save all required maps.
Advantage as well : trip reports etc. can be done on a normal keyboard...
cheers,
Gijs

Jon, you can get around large files by cutting them to smaller maps and take only the ones covering the area you plan to explore. Even if you still take them all along, storage permitting, opening and manipulating smaller maps will be faster and more responsive and will require less RAM to operate.

Roman, even though I’m building this navigation system for my bike, and I have a PC based one in my Jeep, I’m not convinced either that you can trust them with your life. That’s why I still use my regular GPS and mark my waypoint on it before I do on the PC. So I would say go for it but keep your current navigation setup up and running and actually use it to store critical waypoints. It wouldn’t do you any good if you get it out of the pannier in the middle of the desert after your PDA system failed and it has no points on it .

Also I think that newer technology is almost always more reliable than old one. Take a look for example to hard disk, the most problematic of all since it contains sensitive and easily damaged moving parts: You will notice that the shock tolerance, sometimes written on the unit itself, is always improving. That means newer hard disks will withstand vibration betteJon, you can get around large files by cutting them to smaller maps and take only the ones covering the area you plan to explore. Even if you still take them all along, storage permitting, opening and manipulating smaller maps will be faster and more responsive and will require less RAM to operate.

Roman, even though I’m building this navigation system for my bike, and I have a PC based one in my Jeep, I’m not convinced either that you can trust them with your life. That’s why I still use my regular GPS and mark my waypoint on it before I do on the PC. So I would say go for it but keep your current navigation setup up and running and actually use it to store critical waypoints. It wouldn’t do you any good if you get it out of the pannier in the middle of the desert after your PDA system failed and it has no points on it .

Also I think that newer technology is almost always more reliable than old one. Take a look for example to hard disk, the most problematic of all since it contains sensitive and easily damaged moving parts: You will notice that the shock tolerance, sometimes written on the unit itself, is always improving. That means newer hard disks will withstand vibration better than old ones. A PDA is even much more reliable since it has no moving parts whatsoever.
r than old ones. A PDA is even much more reliable since it has no moving parts whatsoever.

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.

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A.B.
OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.

I have used the NAVMAN jacket on an IPAQ - in a 4X4 and the screen is fine in a vehicle but I can't comment on a bike. The GPS is not as reliable as my Garmin. The onboard software was better though. If your looking for a rugedised PDA try some surveying manufactors. I work for Topcon and we produce a fully rugedised WinCE device with a reflective screen - That means it gets better the brighter the sun is! They are more expensive and most tend to also have a keyboard. They cost around £1400 though, but stand up to construction site abuse. Sunscreen also make one but thats probably too big. Trimble make one too. If you need any help post a reply or check out some surveying press.
Ian

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Ian Stilgoe

This is something I've also mulled over for quite a while now; as a gadget fan it's possible to find a dozen arguments to go this route.
I agree with Karim in that traditional navigation is indispensable, and then one can confirm a dead reckoned position with GPS.I don't think sophisticated mapping features are as essential when away from population centres, but I really like the idea of being able to scan and calibrate a tourist office map of an unknown town or city and use that in the PDA/GPS unit to be free to wander around without a guide. I just can't find those little old fashioned handheld scanners, flatbeds are too big. Considering I intend to take along a PC the extra expense of an up to date PDA is difficult to justify, after all it's the same price as a decent Engel fridge.
I stumbled across www.pocketgps.co.uk while researching the options.

Here's to wondering where the hell I am, even though I know my GPS position.
Luke

er, shouldn't this be in the "Navigation - Maps,Compass,GPS" section of this excellent BB?

Hi!

Karim,
what are the rescue options in sahara?
i'm planing a trip,so how do i prearange a posible rescue?
with who?who and how is going to pay the expences.is there some kind of 'incurance' or one has to have friends who can organise a rescue?

I'm sure that no one wants to exprirance what you been trough some time ago in Mauretanie.



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cheers

jondoe

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cheers

jondoe

Hi
I dont have experience of this. Chris Scott knows alot more, and he talked about it at his last slide show at Ernies. I think it depends which country youre in and whats available.

Places like Tunisia have well organised Emergency services which include a helicopter at 20 Euros per min. also there we called a 4WD ambulance to the dunes near Tozeur and they came quickly and cost nothing.

cheers
Karim

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karim@desertbiking.co.uk
www.desertbiking.co.uk

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www.desertbiking.co.uk

AB,

You're absolutely right - you can reduce the map file sizes by selecting less zoom levels and cutting it into smaller packages.

The satellite image maps I used were taken from a NASA website (now where is that URL) and essentially cover the UAE, most of Saudi Arabia and Oman, plus swathes of Iran. They have been calibrated for OziExplorer and work brilliantly. I used the default settings for converting to OziCE format and these produced the bloated file sizes.

Having said that, they would be a much more compact way of storing all your map data tha physically carrying the maps. If you buy one of the expansion packs (such as the PCMCIA card expansion units), you can add additional memory to the unit. This gets around the large file size problem by the good old-fashioned 'throw money and hardware at the problem' method.

You can get used to the screen glare and it won't be that much of a hassle - I was able to read the GPS info and the map and navigate from my iPAQ on the move across the dunes in the UAE without too much of a problem really.

The issue then becomes one of how to ensure that the unit itself is sufficiently protected from damage / dust and that it remains charged up enough. In a vehicle this is not a massive problem. On a bike though... could be a 'challenge'. I've got no desert biking experience myself, so I cannot give you any help with that part of the question!

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Jon Harbour

Middle East Off-Roader
http://www.mid-east-off-road.com

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Jon Harbour

Middle East 4x4

By the way Roman, I agree that mostly you want to get away from E-Mail and IT barrage etc., but there are times when it could be useful or even life-saving.

Also, I run an informal 4x4 owners club in the UAE and sometimes it helps to see what's going on on the web site!

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Jon Harbour

Middle East Off-Roader
http://www.mid-east-off-road.com

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Jon Harbour

Middle East 4x4