What is there to stop someone with a reliable 4x4 and a GPS driving to the Gilf Kebir?

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

Gilf Kebir alone?
Ralph Bagnold did it all the time in the 1930’s.
Nothing to stop you, but don’t under estimate it – the distances are huge.
You need minimum 4 litres water per person per day, with no supplies after Dakhla. Consider the weight…
You also need all fuel, and consumption will be high.
What vehicle do you have?
I worked out a plan with my Land Rover Discovery, and we were over-weight with just one person!
So we hired a Toyota H61 in Cairo. It carries a lot more weight. We carried 25 jerrycans of fuel on the roof, enough to crush most lesser cars.
You will pass no traffic on the way, so a breakdown could be terminal.
Take minimum two vehicles and a Sat-Phone AND the number of a tour operator geared up to answer your call, if need be.
Check out my website for details of my trip with Andraz Zboray last November
http://www.kitmax.com/kitmax/kit12tr...karkurtalh.htm
I wouldn’t do it alone, but mail if you want more info.

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Kitmax - Traveller
Desert Pictures at
http://www.kitmax.com/kitmax/kit03ph...velgallery.htm
homepage http://www.kitmax.com

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Kitmax

I agree with Kitmax. Even if you pick the routes with moderate terrain difficulty, the sheer weight you’ll be carrying can push your vehicle to the limit. Proper tools and adequate spares are essential for every vehicle. I however recommend a limit of 3 vehicles not two. If one vehicle breaks down beyond repair and has to be abandoned, the other vehicle will not be able to carry the broken vehicle passengers and other essentials alone.

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.

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A.B.
OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.

Thanks. I meant about desert passes and police escorts and stuff - ive heard a lot about that. When I was in Egypt two years ago with a Defender I found Egyptian police and bureaucracy to be offputting, corrupt and bloodyminded. More so that anywhere Ive seen apart from maybe Kenya
I've read Bagnold's book, that's why I ask.
How much was it to hire the Toyota?
What's the terrain like on the route?
Where can I get decent maps?

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

Guilty as charged. The Egyptian bureaucracy is the ‘best’ in the world . However Gilf trips are happening all the time.

If you’re going with a guide, and I think you should, he’ll be able to do all the dirty work for you and you won’t have to worry about a thing. Some Guides like Raed Baddar SaharaPioneer.com will let you accompany them in your own vehicle if they see that you’re responsible and well prepared. Again they’ll do all the dirty work.

A GOOD Toyota will cost at least 200$ a day down here. The key phrase in the previous sentence is GOOD. You’ll find cheaper but not reliable. If you want to do your own paper work I can give you the address where you need to go to. Permits can take up to a month.

Most of the terrain ranges from easy to moderate but there are some difficult spots depending on the route you take. If the Great Sand Sea is on your agenda, and it should , then experience counts especially with the vehicle loaded.

In my opinion there are no decent maps of the area, or the whole Western Desert of Egypt for that matter. I use a combination of maps.

The ones I reply on the most are the old Russian survey topographic maps. They’re fairly accurate (800 meter is the most error I found) and show a lot of the trails and passes.

The American TPC maps, looks great and show some of the sand field not visible in the Russian maps. But the tracks drawn on it are useless and confusing.

Landsat satellite images look great, draw your attention to a lot of things obviously not available in a regular map. They are lousy to navigate with however and have to be used in conjunction with the other maps.

The old Egyptian survey maps are also pretty good when it comes to the Gilf area. According to Andras the beautifully printed ones are gone and are replaced by a new horribly printed one. Try to get hold of an old one if you can.

I’ve written a bit more about these maps in previous discussion. Try searching for: tpc onc Russian maps etc. in the Navigation Forum.

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.

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A.B.
OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.

Thanks AB. Yes Id like to do my own paperwork, could you give me that address, please?
Do you know if vehicles with diplomatic status still need the desert passes?

To be honest, Ive used local desert guides three or four times in the Egyptian deserts, and none of them have done anything I couldnt have done myself, in fact two have been dangerously incompetent. I would rather go with a small, well-equipped, competent group of expats with reliable vehicles that we can fix ourselves.

I have spoken to an Egyptian in Ma'adi who drove his Series Land Rover to the Gilf solo not long ago and I have seen his 'copied' Desert Surveys maps - they are terrible. I have one of the original 1942 British maps of the gilf framed, the quality is excellent, I am loath to take it off the wall to use though.

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

Hi all

I think the paper work is quite disturbing however it shouldn’t stop you from visiting the beautiful landscape of the gilf.
The easy and wise way to visit is to join an organized tour, also if you are keen on the adventure side of the trip and accepting its risks here is a few tips.
Navigation is covered here by AB-
-Military escort will accompany you and you will give food and maybe a tent to him -and if you are lucky he might be a nice person
-Permissions give it plenty of time because it will change due to political climate
-Renting cars a diesel Toyota will be available but shop for the price, there is a tour operator based in Farfra how might rent you a car and will assist in route planning his name in Hisham Nessem, search the web for the long-range desert team
Myself I have spent a lot of time and money preparing a a Toyota hilux to suit this trip however im off to Libya at the end of this season, and if your planning your trip
Next season tell me you will find my email in the profile.
Mahmoud Mohareb

Runner, You definitely should keep that map in pristine condition since the current print batch is horrible. You can carefully make photocopy and use that instead.

I’ll get you the address where to get the passes. Funny, I’ve been going there forever but never though to right down the address . The passes are issued to individuals rather than vehicles so I think you still need to apply for them.

You’re right, almost all local guides are horrible and I wouldn’t recommend them. I was talking about the very select few who are responsible, environmental and perhaps most of all on such long trips, decent fun guys. Such as SaharaPioneer.com and Zarzora.com . These guys are very well educated, multilingual and run top-notch operations. On such a long trip you will need his help, as he’ll arrange for trucks to carry all the necessary fuel, water and other essentials.

I‘ve met that guy at Offroad Egypt ( offroadegypt.com ). I couldn’t believe him when ho told me that he went solo. That was too dangerous and borders on insanity. As I’ve said before, it’s not that the terrain is difficult; it’s the absolute remoteness of the area and the complete lack of search and rescue operations in Egypt. If something happened to the car or himself, no helicopter will come to pick him up. Even if he had a satellite phone and called someone it would have taken at least 5 days for anybody to get to him.

Are you in Egypt at the moment? If you are we should get together for a drink and I’ll show you the maps I have.

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.

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A.B.
OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.

Runner, or anyone. I have that map on CD for sale (see ...-overland/maps). I agree it is too nice to take out. I used a colour copy.

Ch

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Morocco Overland 4 (2025) • Trans Morocco Trail

Chris - Ill certainly buy that CD from you, though I cant find it listed on the site - where did you mean it was?

AB - Yes I remember now, I was there when you met him. I didnt say much! In the end his newly-fitted Toyota truck engine damaged his elderly gearbox (on the Forty days Road). Im not sure what's happened since.



[This message has been edited by Runner (edited 23 February 2003).]

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'91 LR 110 Def/Disco hybrid "Elsa"
Bring me the horizon....

Maps are at
http://www.sahara-overland.com/maps/index.htm

Ch

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Morocco Overland 4 (2025) • Trans Morocco Trail

Hello All,

Just back from the Gilf & Uweinat, superb trip, loads of new discoveries, will have the account up the FJ website soon.

Thanks all for the kind words above

Getting back to the original question, a few updates on the situation in Egypt:

According to new regulations introduced about two months ago, the circle of operators who can get the permits is severely restricted (actually IMHO with a good reason), only five or six egyptian companies can get them. Foreigners have to do it through one of them (Guys like Lama or Dabuka can no longer arrange permits by themselves). An escorting officer from military intelligence is mandatory, but my experience is that most turn out to be really nice guys, more a travel companion than a burden.

The bad news is that since three weeks a new rule came in that you have to pay $200 per day (!) for the officer (used to be free), which pushes up costs prohibitively. My assessment is things will be pretty quiet down there as long as the rule stands.

Even through local operators getting permits for your own vehicle is a hit and miss affair, over the past years I heard of several abandoned trips as permits were not given for foreign cars. Using local cars though, the permits are pretty straight forward (but there is no way you can arrange yourself).

In the past a few people pulled off a short 4-6 day dash to the gilf and back with their own cars(if you take the oasis road, you can camp out for four days between checkpoints), but the number of checkpoints have been drastically increased recently, and any vehicle with enough fuel capacity to make the trip will surely attract more than passing attention.

Re maps and the like, the old survey of Egypt 1:500,000 series is still the best out there, which supplemented with the landsat photos available from NASA, will provide for all navigation needs. I still have a few of the original 1942 edition Uweinat sheet if interested, but as above mentioned, a reprint or copy is more suitable to take out to the field.



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Happy Travels,
Andras

FJ Expeditions

Sorry , I'm french and I don't understand IMHO ............
Thanks for your answers

Hi Andrasz

I would be interested in buying an original copy of the 1942 Uweinat from you, if they're for sale.

Could you email me with details? Address is in my profile.

Cheers

Tony

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

Welcome back Andras!

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A.B.

OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.
ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations.

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A.B.
OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara.