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North Africa Topics specific to North Africa and the Sahara down to the 17th parallel (excludes Morocco)
Photo by Lois Pryce, schoolkids in Algeria

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Photo of Lois Pryce, UK
and schoolkids in Algeria



Trans Sahara Routes.

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  #1  
Old 30 Sep 2008
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The end of this episode raises an interesting moral, philosophical point for me. If by going to these places and accepting the risk of abduction for yourself, what is the moral implication of putting at risk those who are sent to secure your release, not mention those abductors who lose their lives as a result of their own actions?

As a consequence of these people going to the Gilf a number of people are now dead.



There are other places in the world where the risks and potential consequences are similar. Should they be avoided?
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Old 30 Sep 2008
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Should they be avoided?

I think everyone wants to know what exactly went on here first......
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Old 30 Sep 2008
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Originally Posted by Fastship View Post
As a consequence of these people going to the Gilf a number of people are now dead.
Hmmm, I'd rephrase that:

As a consequence of some people thinking it was a good idea to take other people hostage and demand a ransom these first people are now dead.

Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I don't think the victims should be blamed. They did have guides, after all and presumably govt. permits as well.
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Old 30 Sep 2008
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Hmmm, I'd rephrase that:

They did have guides, after all and presumably govt. permits as well.
As this event demonstrates, having guides and permits has very little to do with whether you are abducted or not. In the absence of economies, local goverments, tax and observed borders, abductions have been an age old way of making an income in the Sahara. The trick is to try and figure out when and where these abductions are likely to happen. There were some warning signs earlier this year that the Gilf was on the list.
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Old 30 Sep 2008
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The end of this episode raises an interesting moral, philosophical point for me. ...
Wow, for me too! But I can't imagine a world where moral responsibility of the victim is always weighted against that of the perpetrator. Because then we will be only a step away from the conclusion that the very existence of victims is a major incitement to crime. Why bother with chasing knife wielding yobs if we can make walking streets after dark a morally repugnant activity?
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Old 30 Sep 2008
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Originally Posted by Fastship View Post
The end of this episode raises an interesting moral, philosophical point for me...


An interesting discussion, however could I suggest to start a new thread on this. Most people read this thread to get information on the event and the subsequent regulations for the Gilf, the various points of view on this question will quickly clutter the thread with off-topic responses.
Last edited by andrasz; 1 Oct 2008 at 02:21.
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Old 30 Sep 2008
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As we have become accustomed to during the events, the picture emerging in the international press on the release of the group is rather different than the official line. Apparently (as told by the victims) the group was all of a sudden let go after the attackers received a phone call, all 19 in one vehicle (the other three being taken by the ambushers), and drove some 200 miles north to the Egyptian border. They finally met some Egyptian military around Eight Bells... Clearly there was no military action whatsoever. The complete lack of any official statement from Germany, plus the circumstances of the release strongly suggests that a ransom was paid.

At the moment it is very questionable whether we may believe any of the Sudanese and Egyptian statements regarding gun battles and casualties.

As it is the Eid now following the end of Ramadan with Egypt practically shut down, I don't expect to have any info on the future of travel to the region until next week.
Last edited by andrasz; 1 Oct 2008 at 02:21.
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Old 1 Oct 2008
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An interesting discussion, however could I suggest to start a new thread on this. Most people read this thread to get information on the event and the subsequent regulations for the Gilf, the various points of view on this question will quickly clutter the thread with off-topic responses.
Fair enough.
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Old 1 Oct 2008
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last thought on this one...
Just one last thought - if a ransom was paid, which certainly seems more likely as the story becomes clearer (the Italian Govt are notorious for paying ransoms...) then the Gilf problem is far from sorted...

While the Egyptians may well have wanted to give the impression that they don't put up with any of that sort of thing, it's becoming more probable that on this occasion cash changed hands, and that will only encourage others!
Tony
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Old 1 Oct 2008
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It looks like there are at least 2 possibilities:
1) ransom was paid, call came through to the bandits to confirm and the 19 were set free to make their own way back to Egypt. 19 in a car - hellava way to see the Libyan desert!

2) car with bandits was shot up whilst off fetching water/food/fuel/ransom, call came through to the rest of the bandits to confirm the hit and the 19 were set free as a result.

The tourists may not actually know which of these happened. Some reports say there were 40 or more bandits. But if the tourists can confirm that one car was away at the time, along with 4-6 bandits, then (2) may have happened.

Neither of these events makes for a particularly safe Gilf. The key driver is the instability in the Sudan/Chad region. This, coupled with the knowledge that tourists/vehicles/money are up for grabs in southern Egypt, makes it unlikely that this is the last episode. Some of the 40 youngsters involved will probably be plotting another hit - with all the lessons learnt. On the other hand, Egypt may want to deploy a presence along the remote southern border and equip the $100 per day soldier-lad that has to come along with more than a sun hat.
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Old 1 Oct 2008
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One of the best reports so far:
‘I thought this was the end’ - The National Newspaper
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Old 21 Oct 2008
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What's the update?
Are there any details about the kidnappings which have emerged in recent weeks? After the 2003 kidnappings in Algeria were over, a load of detail was released. While most of this was interesting, especially to people who travel in the Sahara, it was strategically important in being able to figure out what the risks were to future travel in the region. So I'm wondering if anyone has detail on how well set-up the bandits were, what kind of resouces they had to hand in N Sudan, what the leadership was like and so on.
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