Referring to the “horrible” future you foretell on Um El Maa , have you seen its present?

I must admit that it was last year, when I had been at these lakes the last time. It was not even in the middle of the 'tourist season'. Unfortunately there were plenty of such 'party people' as you had mentioned them. But they were not foreigners but Libyans. In particular I remember some of the new type LandCrusiers (don't ask me the precise type of the car - the new, fat ones I mean). The impression might be different in the 'high season'. But I shall not go there any more in this period.

What I actually wanted to express is the situation that such sensitive places as the so called "Mandara Lakes" cannot survive more than a very limited number of visitors. Else they loose their charme...


Its daily spectacle of individual’s luxury 4x4 , quads , sidecars too, roaring up and down the dunes while the tourists willing to discover LY ( this was true at the end of embargo in case not now ) are still hoarded on board of rusty FJ .

I do not like in particular, if people find it necessary to spoil the dune flanks around the lakes with their traces (tire or foot). since all coming after them have no more chance to take a 'clean' picture of the lake and the dunes behind then.

Do not understand, what you want to express with the different types of trucks. Seems you do not like those who come with a modern car but prefer those in the old rusty FJ.


The hundred’s bottles of Prosecco wine and spirits buried under its sand?

I am actually not aware of those. But the rubbish thrown away is a problem in general already now. Not that this is only done by tourists - not at all- but at such spots special care should be taken!


Shall we talk how it is introduced by individuals ? the way & tips? ( nothing against alcohol , but if it is forbidden, first come for the foreign traveller the respect of usages and customs of the nation he visit),?

I understand that you credit the consumed Alcohol to those tourists who entered Libya by their own vehicles. The big groups who come by plane have less chance to bring a lot of bottles. Is it that, what you mean? What means "the way & tips?"?

I would propose to discuss th subject 'alcohol' not in this thread. It will fore sure be an issue, if Libya wants to run its planned tourist complexes along the coast. Although I personally can easily live without alcohol, I fear that 'dry tourist compounds' would be much less attractive for the tourists...

Shall we talk about the ridiculous profits of the four local straw huts called actually tourist camps or shall we go on with Somehow more confused or more officially?

I remember the time, when there were no such huts at the 'Mandara Lakes' and must admit that I prefer the previous situation. Nowadays you hardly stop your car and you are already approachec by people who want to sell you 'Touareg stuff'

Budrinna; I do not understand the second sentence you made here: "or shall we go on with Somehow more confused or more officially?"


From our side we could keep on with pleasure on the same line but the Forum is not the correct place to comment those and others points, that's why we reported above the official aims of the fair you got the opportunity to visit, (also visited by representatives of our office )

Would you mind to tell us whom or which organisation you are representing? I could imagine that such could be helpful to better understand your statements.
(If you represent a 'tourist agency' then you may better state it only in this way without mentioning its actual name to avoid that it could be considered as 'commercial advertisment' which is restricted in this forum).


:May be you will read through ( and find )the true premise of the hoped future of Tourism in LY that everywhere never lied for the benefit of few , but for all LY citizens as foreigns .

I wish that the tourism in LY can develop quietly and in respect of local's and foreigner's interest!

Excellent thread, I've have been following it closely, because I hope to go to Libya at the end of the year, and gather as much info as possible.

A little bemused why it's left the main subject though; surely all we need is clarification.

I apologise Budrinna; but I do wonder what a 'Delaware' Company (offshore tax reasons? I spent 5yrs in the Middle East, doing business with such companies) is doing in Libya, and the answer;

Welcome To Phoenicia-Group.net - Linking Libya and The World

but I could be wrong.

Libya for me, is one of the few great desert Countries left to see, I vistied Tripoli many years ago, and would like to go back and see the rest of the Country.

I can put up with a ferry that costs 4/5 more (compared to Morocco), and a lot more paperwork; but only to a point.

Ma'salama

Dear Budrinna,

I can see that your country is making all the right noises to attract attention of the world for the new policy of openness. Sadly, the Libyans seem to forget that after 30 odd years, the world needs convinving that Libya is an asset to the internatinal community, even that travel to Libya is an option. It is just as well up to the Libyans to demonstrate that they want to make an effort.

Show me a serious tour operator from the UK, Italy or USA who will want to risk selling a package to Libya knowing that even for him it took a month and a ton of paperwork to obtain a Libyan visa for the T.I.T.EX.

Now, an excerpt form the blurb for the 2ND TRIPOLI INTERNATIONAL TOURISM EXPO ( T.I.T.EX ) 2009:

"This is a good opportunity for Tourism Organizations, Tour Operators, Travel Agencies, Airlines, Hotels, Investors in the Tourism sector and other related industries, around the World to introduce themselves to the Libyan market."

So far so good, but wait! If this is what they really mean (the English website is pretty horrid), they seem not to notice that right now tourism & travel is a cut-throat market - the U.N. World Tourism Organization is prediciting a 2% decline in 2009. It is the Libyans who need to introduce themselves to the international travel markets, not the other way round. In the past, you had shown up, in a very, very modest way, at the World Travel Market in London (actually, only Arkno was there because they have an office in London). Last year the Libya stand was not there at all. AT ITB in Berlin only a handful of Libyan tour operators showed up. So, from where I stand I can see that Libya isn't trying hard at all.

You may wonder why am saying all this. Just as you purport to be involved with tourism, so am I - I run a tourism promotion agency representing another European country in the UK. It took us many years to come up with a right market strategy, so I know Libya needs time, too. But starting from the wrong end is not going to help. And what you said about misbehaving tourist is not only a problem for Libya, and it will not be solved by closing the borders due to unreasonable visa requirements.

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Roman (UK)

Thanks all
for you all interesting comments, but most statements are focused on short one trip time basis to support their statement with valid evidence ( by the way “ party peoples” referred by Kuno2 are called here Zarda and are the clear result from imported fashions that particularly in Um el Maa were enhanced by individuals 4x4 at the point that now quads are available for all tourist like in Sharm el Sheik or Hurgada . Italian co provides to hire ). If there is a question it is why Libyans can’t have same fun in their own country ?it is a shame to behave likely or what else?).
Others comments are suggested by different points of comparison (LY is not Morocco and Morocco is not LY even bothe are in NorthAfrica ecc ) or egoistic point of views (peoples that only seek and wish that the LY Sahara will remain submitted as the pleasure of their very personal requirements ( opportunity to take clean dune’s shoot or not to be disturbed by local selling local handcraft and Not stuff ? Ridiculous if you think that this happens in all touristic places in the world ? or, worst when are moved by poor or hidden interest (see here small local business at the expense and damage for the development of all the sector ) or wrong ( no LY border are closed except now Amsad for plague ) .

Those are not premises valid to help the LY unreasonable visa’s procedure that, after all is unreasonable as the procedure requested for a Libyan tourist aiming to travel EU. There are the same , and since years.

Agree that all will be a question of time , but times are always changing and future is not made by past remembrances , but with the presence of qualified T.O . interested in opening local long lasting branch and not t “seldom “ and take away presence and this is the reason that authorities, to whom is due to change ,or not, the charme of Um El Maa , to solve or not dry tourist thirst’s problems , but certainly to open more and others Titex. in order to have the profitable participation of hundred of serious presences. On this matter Budrinna could point hundreds of serious foreign operator risking tour package in LY but here and concluding will just report the name of worldwide first T.O, the Italian Valtur , actually building resorts in LY of (also UK and Swiss co are working in similar project Ly) where more than hundreds of foreign T.O will send their clients with packages that will include tours in Umm el Maa, in the time surely cleaned from huts as Prosecco bottles , but also with the possibility have Prosecco, Champagne or wisky served at theirs s correct temperature inside luxury resorts on the shore of Um el Maa. too as well in Namous or bir Tlaksin . When, before or later this will happen this will also signify that visa procedure will come to end from one side as the other. This is Budrinna’s wish.
Cheers Budrinna

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Budrinna Co.

Budrinna,

I am sure the time will come for tourism boom in Libya, but let's not get overexcited yet with " hundreds of serious foreign operator risking tour package in LY". Look up the Euromonitor International forecast for 2007 - 2012. There's going to be very little growth, even compared to Algeria, and that's on pretty low 2007 base figures for a country the size of Libya. And that was even before the 2009 market crash.



http://www.wtmlondon.com/files/wtm_g...eport_2008.pdf (page 17)

A stable policy baseds on a long term vision is what every country needs to attract tourism, not the kind of "go - stop - go" pattern typical of Libya during the recent years.

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Roman (UK)

Tunisia saw 3.2 million visitors in the first six months of this year. Morocco saw 7.4 milliion tourists last year and is on course to welcome 10 million next year.

Your bar-chart shows that only Iran is forecast to lose tourists (a projected downturn of a third - thats a big percentage). Libya has good potential but it needs to go and see how Tunisia next door, and how Morocco in particular, do it. And then copy. The cheap no-frills airlines go straight into Morocco now, you dont need a visa, let alone sending in bank-account statements. Biometric passports was suggested earlier this year, just as we were to visit Libya with the Nile Trial classic car rally, and then they changed their minds, but not before several crews had gone through the hassle of taking out the new passport (which in the end proved a waste of time and money). Libya is by far the friendliest country on the ground compared with Tunisia or Morocco, but, has a long, long way to go in understanding how to attract visitors.

I cant see why the Swiss should be interested in any inward investment in Libya. No Swiss national can get a visa to Libya. Even more difficult for a Swiss national than being an American !

Philip Young
Endurance Rally Association

Agree with both replies as the above;

I spent many an interesting hour stuck in the 'weekend queue' heading from Damman to Bahrain across the courseway.

Bahrain; small country, little or no oil, but the Saudi's love the 'Scottish water', and sights, of course. If tourism is planned correctly, vast wealth is available, even in this economic climate.

well 12 of us were going to Libya in May 2010

after the visa changes we are now going to Tunisia- that's probably £30,000 lost to the Libyan economy in Euro's!

When I look at this chart, I know where I prefer to go : Not in Egypt nor Morocco where I'll see a lot of crowd of pinky tourists!
Below Jordan I'll choose some contry where formalities aren't too much boring (for exemple fingerprint files in some country - I don't remember exactly which one).

RR

Libya is never going to get any really significant numbers of visitors until it realises it must make it easy to visit the country. On-The-Spot Visas available when you arrive make it easy for visitors to Egypt, in some places, you dont even need that (Im talking about those who fly in). With Libya, if you are Swiss, you cant get a visa, because Gadaffi's son upset restaurant staff in Switzerland, they chucked him out...now nobody who is Swiss can get a visa. Nuts. Just the sort of thing that does nothing for investment, or, visitor numbers. The barriers in the way are because Libya is suspicious of visitors.

Morocco - dont knock it till you've seen it. If you go out of season you drive for miles and miles without seeing another human being. November is great, for example. Get to the maze of roads south of Marrakesh, and get to the top of the Tiz-ni-Test mountain after Asni, awesome...and go east from Marrakesh to Ouazazate. Good base camp here...major films like Lawrence of Arabia, Mummy, Indiana Jones, have all used Todra Gorge, which is best accessed from driving down from Fez, to Midelt up on the Atlas Plateau, and turning right at Rich...terrific canyons, freshly covered in in a ribbon of tarmac, (before it was all rough piste and serious off-roading in here).

Who needs Libya, when you can do this so easily, and, cheaply - just fly in on Easy-Jet, and hire a car for a week. Dont go without at least taking a Michelin map, and go south-east...stunning stuff. Pick the right time and you wont see a tourist coach, in fact you wont see a tourist apart from a few adventurous bikers, but, as ever, timing is everything. You dont need a visa, and while French is dominant, a lot of English is spoken (remote petrol stations, shops etc), all you need is will-power and a map.

A Friend of mine applied for a visa two month ago:

He just went to the embassy, and since t was the first time for him, he aske, how the procedure works....

...what was explained to him very friendly.

Then he filled the application form. Showed about a thousand US dollars and the lady told him that after a -formal- approval procedure, he could pick up his visa. It would need normally 10 days so she advised him to come back after two weeks.

This he did.

He was very sure that everything worked fine so that he booked the flight for just the next day.

And so it was. He got his tourist-visa as requested.

Since he wanted to 'travel' and not t stay in one hotel, he did not have to prove all the hotel bookings.

Invitation from local "tour operator"? Was not required.
Visa only, if you are a group of at least four persons? He was alone. It was not required.
An "Official Tour Guide"? No. He had none. He did not need one. And nobody insisted in such company.
A "Tourist Police-Man"? Reallyno need for. And there was none to join him.

So, my friend arrived and travelled for 25 days...

He visited Malta, Italy, France, Belgium and the Netherlandes. He is Libyan and he went to 'Schengen States'.

Hello!
I’m just here as a reader since a long time, but I would like to add some comments to this discussion.


I am travelling to Libya since almost 20 years now, and I have a close amicable relationship to the people and the desert. I spend more time and money in Libya than 20 mass tourists ever will do. And I would like to continue that. Lots of travelers here may also be in the same situation. Also during embargo these travelers where the only one in to give a good image of Libya in there own countries. They did more positive for the Libyan image than every thing else.

What I miss (here in this tread, by certain actors) is any respect for travelers. People had been welcome as guest before, now rejected as the only causer of all ecological, economical and security problems. I think this gives a worse picture of Libya than that nice country deserves.

The rash statement, that the individual tourism plays no economic role, is a widespread rumor. In particular, travelers who are using their own vehicles/ship/Plane have higher income as mass tourists, and they spend more money and they spend it AT DIFFERENT PLACES. The difference is that individual travelers spend their money in the whole country and not like mass tourists to one company which controls the distribution in the country. This money will NOT really arrive in small restaurants or shops. The Tunisian situation around the all-inclusive-hotel zones gives a good example. This discussion about individual travelling is simply a struggle between big and small players in the tourism business. Big players have the better Lobby. That’s all. So we have to understand all these bashings against individual tourism as an effort of big (also state-run) TO against all the small businesses run and founded by small REGIONAL players in the last “good” years. Ecological problems are always the same. Local cars leave the same trace as a foreign car. An empty bottle is the same, whoever finished it. In Europe lots of countries tried to ban individual tourists 30 ears ago. The effect was a disappearing of small infrastructure of shops, restaurants, etc. in these regions. Now these regions are bagging for People with motor homes, using Campsites around. I live in a small, wealthy town where they build up a high class wine-tourism, based on individual travelers. The turnover increased about 150% in the last 5 years. AND: the money stays in the region!! If the trip would be booked via a big TO only a few percent arrive at people locally. In Libya it’s not different.

Exclusive, high class-tourism will always be highly individual, what means, that I won’t travel in a group of 10 or 20 person on a backseat of a agency car. If I spend 300$ or more per day, I don’t come to be told what I have to do or where I have to go and be observed by a policeman 24h a day. I don’t think that Libyans need a policeman with them in Europe?! May be I’m wrong? When friends from Libya visit me, I never find a policeman on my breakfast table May be the rules are NOT the same, budrinna!?

But we are in the wrong thread, to continue the never ending discussion about the bad “individual” travelers.

We are discussing about the new visa regulation. I think we should not link that political matter to tourist business. No challenge like protecting fragile nature, cultural heritage, developing regional tourist business, keeping the high level of security etc. can be solved with showing my grandmas bank account to get a visa. So, if there where the same visa-conditions for both sides – and that’s the political objective of that new regulation– everybody would be happy. In the next months we will see if it the same. If not, it’s up to Europe to adapt it.

We will see.


Wolle

Nice reply !
I agree your post, dear Wolle.

Wolle - I would sign your statement at any time!

I remeber a banner at Tripoli Airport telling that "Friendship is made between people and not between Gouvernments". Something like this...

Hi all,

Libya would not be Libya if everthing there worked as promised. I have a fiend who lives permamently in Egypt and has a Polish passport, which is a EU passport after all.

Last week he applied through a Libyan tour operator for a tourist visa, to be colected at Amsaad. He had the visa granted without any fuss after 24 hrs.

Go figure!!!
:confused1:

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Roman (UK)