Andrasz, I read your translation about Almàsy and his adventures in the desert - it inspired me once again to do some more research in future trips we would love to do between the dunes we love so much.

And Tango, ten out of ten for a great intro to your website, "Be absorbed by the desert". Yes sir!

Good luck with your future searches in, what I believe, the most desolate, and therefore beautiful places, in Africa.

www.geocities.com/lamminga
http://community.webshots.com/user/lamminga

Dennis, thank you for the compliements. We will keep you informed if we find something on our search.
Now we have 2 very good places which could both be Bab Masr. One of the Landmarks only Almásy uses.

Hallo Andras,
yes we agree on several places, which are idendified without any douts. On the other hand, Bab Masr, their are only 2 places which we both agree on 100%, as the maps are very clear in this area. We also know that all over the area their are campsites of SDF camps and tracks. But you don´t forget that Almásy like he himself writes was lost for a time before reaching the Gilf. He also says things have changed since he has been their. When was he their the last time? Their are all his famous Expeditions which are well discribed, but their are quite a few hints he was in the Gilf Kebir before the war with hardly any or no note!!!
On the operation Salam he was blaming his navigator to be unable, so he had to do the navigation himself, with alot of stress (he was not with his sudanese drivers, who knew how do drive). The maps on the italian (libyan side ) where bad.
On which expedition did Almásy name the Bab misr the first time? It was for sure not during Operation Salam. (there you do not find a record).
As the border between Egypt and libya was not very easy to recognise during the early 1930ies. So Bab Masr could be far into Egypt or in Libya. The only note we think of is the distance Almásy writes in his diary.
So the distance is the key factor in the whole puzzel.
Your opioin is that Almásy wrote the diary after the opertaion! That could be ofcourse possible, but then all distances are yust guesses. which will not lead us anywhere.
The other possibility is that Almásy wrote the diary back in 1942 and he intentionaly made false kilometer distances (for one reason or other) Switching some places ? So Bab Masr could be anywhere.
For sure is as Almásy was the only one who was navigating on that trip, he will write the kilometers very acuratly and will check his fuel consumption very presice. So you are looking for Purzel between Wadi Sura and Bab Masr (factor X).
so looking out do hear your opioin again

True, form Almasy's writings published in German the story of his expeditions to the Gilf is a bit confusing. Only the Hungarian editions of his books give the full picture:

1932 spring - the 'Zarzura' expedition with Sir Robert Clayton, Patrick Clayton and Penderel - during this trip they have explored the western side of the Gilf with cars from Three Castles up to the mouth of Wadi Abd el Melik - 'Bab el Misr' must have been discovered at this time (there is no other passable way north)

1933 spring - expedition with Penderel & Bermann (Hollriegel) to the Gilf - Aqaba pass & Wadi Talh discovered (and the rock art sites of Ain Doua)

1933 autumn - DIAFE XI with Frobenius & Rhotert - Wadi Sora caves discovered

1934 spring - Royal Automobile Club of Egypt expedition - PKD monument erected

While he made a number of other desert trips (to the Wadi Howar and the Sand Sea), he never went back to the Gilf till 1942.

In my opinion there cannot be much doubt as to the general location of 'Bab al Misr'. Shortly north of 'Mushroom rock' the black shingle plateau begins that Almasy describes, before passing 'Bab al Misr' coming from the north. Beyond the 'Mushroom rock' bay the country opens up, there is no more place for a narrow gateway.

In 1932 spring when they first went this way, Clayton was doing his surveying work (which was very accurate), so the position of any noted landmark would have been determined with good accuracy.

Another clue is the Wadi Sora photograph taken during 1942. Based on the shadows it is definitely mid-morning, at least 2 hours before noon (in mid may the sun would be almost at the zenith at noon at that latitude). As camp was left at 9:25 (Almasy explicitely mentions the delay due to leaving Purzel and redistributing the loads), the camp must have been within an hour's drive from WS - this effectively discounts all locations farther north (even today with a well worn track it takes about 1 hr to reach the Mushroom rock area from WS, though it's only about 20 km)



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Happy Travels,
Andras

FJ Expeditions



[This message has been edited by andrasz (edited 08 July 2004).]

Hallo Andras,
ofcourse you are right with the hungarian edition, but correct me if I'm wrong it was writen in 1934. So further expeditions will not be mentioned.

Here something else, do you or someone else know which tires Almásy used. All the cars were captured, so had they their original tires, or did they use german or italian tires.
He changed the tires from Purzel, so he had already some bad or punctured tires.

Yust do correct you, the Prince monument was erected in 1933 and the Royal Automobile Club of Egypt went for the first annual in spring 1934. Their is an article from the Ahram.

looking for your opion

Tango,

Almasy wrote two books in Hungarian, the 'Unknown sahara' in 1934, and 'In Air, On Sand' in 1937. (Also 'recentes explorations...' was published in Cairo in 1936). These formed the basis for the 1939 German edition, but many chapters were left out. The recent re-edition included the missing chapters from US, but not those from 'In Air..'

Yes, my mixup, the PKD monument was erected spring 1933. The note left there was from 1934.

Following 1934 he traveled to the Wadi Howar and the Great Sand Sea, but not to the Gilf/Uweinat. In 1935 december he was refused permission to go to Uweinat with Lichtenstein, and there is no record of him having made any deep desert trip afterwards. He only made short trips to the northern parts with von Esch.

In both spring and autumn 1933 he went to Kufra to replenish supplies (raising suspicion of the british authorities...), so was familiar with the Gilf - Kufra route.

Re tires, no idea I'm afraid. The pictures of the station wagons give a very good view of the tires, but you'd need an expert to recognise them based on the tread. The captured radio correspondences reveal quite a lot about the preparations (the cars were actually shipped over from Italy) and the trip itself, but tires not mentioned.

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Happy Travels,
Andras

FJ Expeditions

[This message has been edited by andrasz (edited 09 July 2004).]

The question I think of. When was Almásy giving the name Bab Masr. If it is like you say during the 1932 expedition. it is not making sence, since all the names where given in that expedition, Peter and Paul, Camp Chianti etc, they are all on the maps, of the Egyptain survey. If it was given 1 year later, we also do not find it in the History of Höllriegel who made a map of all the places visited then. Also in 1934 neither von der Esch nor the Ahram are writting something about Bab Masr. So why? The only reason I see, they didn`t know about that place. Even Almásy himself is not writting anything about it, neither in hungarian? So why until 1937, their is no mentioning of Bab Masr. In 1942 he says he is recognising Bab Masr, so he should have been their before. But again why we don't find anything in all the literature of that time. Did Almásy used secret names for places, he didn't tell anyone of(was he planing secete missions as early as 1932-34 - proberbly not).
If we look at nearly any other landmark on the Englisch-Egyptian Survey maps we find nearly every landmark anyone including Almásy visited. And we can nearly tell when the name was given for that except Bab Masr?
Even in those days no body was very interested in frontiers, no body was looking to the 25th degree as official border as everyone crossed freely.

Tango,

The question you raise is a valid one, I have no ready explanation.

Based on the 1942 description of 'Bab al Misr' I am reasonably convinced about it's identification with the 'Mushroom rock' area. The convoy tracks pass that way, and even in 1932 it would have been the only readily available way north, which we know they did make.

One thing to consider is that in 1932 much of the surrounding country was unknown, so it was not evident that this is the only practical approach from the north-west.

Almasy refers to 'meeting my old Gilf - Kufra route'. This could not refer to his 1932 track which was further south, but to one of the 1933 trips when Kufra was re-visited (but not in 1934). Probably the name was given in 1933, as Almasy clearly states 'which I have previously named...'



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Happy Travels,
Andras

FJ Expeditions

Andras,
the mushroom rock, was a meeting point for the LRDG and should be an important landmark since the late 1940 or beginning og 1941 before the survey maps were printed, that is also a reason you find the landmark on it. But Almásy was in that time not around the area.
So we have something in common, that their are some statements which doesn`t want to fit at all.
Because if you find all the small detailed informations, which do not fit with the regular route, Wadi Sura - mushroom rock - Kufra, we might find a clue, about the area Almásy took.
good travels
Tango

Tango

I'm afraid have to disagree, check the references yourself:

Aside Almasy, Pat Clayton published an article in the Georgaphical Journal (March 1933) describing the 1932 expedition. The map clearly shows that they went north via the mushroom rock area. (Also 'point 1020' is already shown)

Penderel wrote up the results of the 1933 spring expedition (GJ June 1934), there again it is clear they used the same route going north (to Wadi Talh). What is also clear, that they used Almasy's 1932 track to Kufra.

Rhotert's (1952) map is a bit more ambiguous, as both the routes of Diafe XI (1933) and XII (1935, without Almasy) are shown. However it is clear that they used again the same route going to Wadi Abd el Melik, and the track to Kufra is again the same as Almasy's 1932 track.

In the 1942 diary Almasy writes sighting the Gilf and 'point 1020', being again on 'known ground'. Soon after this they pass 'Bab al Misr'. This matches well with the facts, that all his previous Gilf - Kufra sorties were along the more southerly Wadi Sora - Kufra track. Point 1020 is at the northern end of the bay north of Wadi Sora, just south of the Mushroom Rock area (also clearly marked on Penderel's map, and the survey of Egypt maps).



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Happy Travels,
Andras

FJ Expeditions

Sorry Andras,
I expressed myself wrong. Yes all the points you write of are on the maps and known before, except Bab Masr, it doesn't make sence.
If it is right that they took the route everybody thinks of and the most logic, they would have pasted by the point 1020 you mention.
Almásy says only he sees point 1020 than he knows exactly where he was. So the question is how far do you actually see point 1020 if you come from the south.
If he came from the north via the regular route he should have know before seeing the hight 1020 exactly where he is. because he had been their on previous occations

Not necessarily:

On the three previous occasions they went north along the western side of the Gilf along the most practical (and to my knowledge only feasible) route just to the west of the cliffs and foothills. I assume (without any definite proof or clue) that this route must have closely corresponded to the present track going from Wadi Sora to Wadi Gubba.

In 1942 Almasy came from the NW, roughly corresponding to the convoy routes. He never went that way, so he was navigating trying to reach his old known Gilf - Kufra track. However at a point he was forced to turn north by a dune range till reaching the convoy tracks again. He follows them reaching a 'stony plateau ... flat as a table ... surface black shale'. We now know this plateau reaches all the way to the Gilf, Almasy must have crossed it further west, as the cliffs were not yet in sight.

One thing to factor in: it was mid may, when it is very hazy even if no actual dust storm, visibility could not have been more than 25-30 km at best, probably even less.

Thus coming from the NW he first gets on the plateau, then sees the cliffs and '1020', then enters the 'mushroom rock' valley at some point close to 25E which he calls 'Bab al Misr' (alternately 'Bab al Misr' could be the place where they exit the 'mushroom rock' valley)

The country described after passing Bab al Misr reads very much like the mushroom rock area, and definitely confirms that they are coming from the north: "Now everything is familiar to me, the valleys with the red sandy bottom, the mighty wall of rock on the LEFT, the tangle of foothills on the RIGHT, only one thing is new. The great road beaten out with many hundred tracks..."

Based on the above reasoning, we can say the following about 'Bab el Misr':

-It is definitely on the convoy tracks
-It is within 20-30 kilometres from '1020'
-It is close to where the black plain ends and the foothills of the Gilf begin
- It is between 'two conspicious white knolls'

I agree that any number of points may match this description. My vote is still for the defile between the two rather grandiose, and definitely whitish lumps of rock at the southern entrance of the 'mushroom rock bay', but it could be somewhere further north along the convoy route. At one point the present track diverges from the convoy route, and I never followed the latter.

However getting back to the original purpose, the exact point of 'Bab el Misr' is in my wiew not so relevant, as Almasy next describes being 'at last in the plain, round the spur of the Gilf'. The 'spur of the Gilf' is in my reading the Wadi Sora promontory. Immediately after writing this, he continues to describing making camp 'near Wadi Anag', which is in my opinion the most important clue regarding the position of the 'robbers camp'.

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Happy Travels,
Andras

FJ Expeditions

I am very interested to join the expedition I live in Malaga Spain and drive a very well equipped Camel Trophy Land Rover

hallo Andras, I agree with all the comments you have 100%, of rekord I'll answer you what I think Wadi Anag is standing for, you will see that we both are very close together.

I think if the car should be found, it should wander directly into a museum.

Hallo mikerixion, you are ofcourse welcome to join, we should discuse best the way to get your car to Egypt, so you can contact me for that, or have you done that before?

years have passed and the location of Purzel was found at last. the austrian TV even made a dokumentary film on that. After wadi Anag was known it was a easy search of some hours only and the hiding out place of Purzel was found. Truely the car was gone long time ago. Most proberbly yust after Almasy returned to Libya. The English new that Almasy was around and after they finished their rescue of the crews of the lost planes of the southern africans stationed in Kufra they went out to chase down Almasy

Like Shaw writes they found his tracks coming down from Aqaba so they knew that he already escaped back to Libya. May be in the hope to catch up with him they followed his fresh track in the soft sand which should have been easy coming to the campside were Purzel was parked.

As the car was in a runing condition only the 4 tires were no good for further use. it was an easy task to get some new tires from the frequent traffic of the SDF going to Kufra, which would carry essentianal things like tires with them.

Also a great research Kuno made at Gebel Sherif