I'm curious what the On The Road price is ... in South Africa ... for a new
KTM 690 Enduro? Here, it's about $10,500 USD, add in tax, lic. dealer prep, close to $12,000 on the road. How does S. Africa compare? :confused1:

Sometimes in technical riding the smaller, lighter bike is easier to handle.
I can go faster on a technical trail on a 250 than a 450.

£8000 is about equal to $12,000 USD. Seems to me, you're starting about at the same price point with either bike. I know guys spend A LOT more than $2000 usd on "customizing" the 690. The rear sub frame kit is an interesting
problem ... since the stock 690 has no subframe.

No question the 690 is a great bike ... and better every year. I rode 1st year model and a 2013, which was better. Even if I could afford these bikes, I'm not sure I'd buy one for a travel bike.

I hope CCM does well with the bike. They are headed in the right direction
but need to, IMO, get costs in line.

I was going to ask the same thing! Did he get it wrong about the Kymco produced, made in China motor? Or was CCM's very dismal history? Or was it the fact David Knight (World Enduro Champion) quit BMW and sacrificed millions to GET OFF the BMW ... with the same 450 motor is in the CCM? Or maybe his facts about the difference between an £8K CCM and a £2K DRZ400?
Don't worry Jake, if CCM has got the bike right, it won't go unnoticed.

£800! Gasp! Very impressive.

Hi folks,

of course the CCM isn't a cheap bike, but the price is "only" £ 300 more than a KTM 690 Enduro R, which is stronger but "naked", that means you have to invest approx. £ 2000 more (with Rally Raid products, KTM-Basel offers an even more expensive but very good and proven kit) to get it ready for traveling. The CCM comes with an 18-litres-fuel-tank which is good enough for a range of about 400 km and a good windscreen so there is not much to do to before start a longer trip. Don't misunderstand me, I love the LC4 (i have one in my 690 Duke R) and the GP 450 still has to prove that the bike will make it but I think we should give it a chance. The market will answer our questions anayway. At least I really enjoyed my ride around Salter Fell and the Through of Bowland and offroad I conceived it more handy than a 690 Enduro, which i rided very often before. In my opinion there is a place for the CCM GP 450 Adventure, even in my plans as I am looking for a smaller playmate for my Tiger (and still thinking about KTM, but now also a little bit CCM)...

And I know that I could get a (used) lightweight bike for less money and build it up by myself, but out of the shop there is at the moment nothing comparable.

Sorry for my English!

So long,

da Wolf

Mollydog I don't know the answers either but through my very rosey specs the world is very different place to that inhabited by the rest of you poor mortals

Dave knight and the BMW tie up / breakdown - who knows the full facts except Dave knight - but I would suspect if it was the bike it was the chassis that did not work fromwhat various reports say - but it could have been the rigid flexability shown by the BMW management that made it unworkable, I would expect the engine was reasonably fine for the job and Mr knight would be able to compensate for its shortcomings if any by his skill level.

The CCM engine is made in Tiawan not China - very different countries with different political and and economical bases.

CCM have made some changes to the running of 450 engine - ie ignition set up etc to change its character to suit this application.

Trying to compare a well built small manufacturer product with very high quality components and a mass produced tacked together budget bike will give massive price differences so comparing CCM to a Yamaha is not really fair the KTM is about the only comparable bike and really we should be looking at the 450 ktm for a more balanced comparison cost in the UK £7349 - its a pure off road bike thats barely road legal and no way would I want to cover 500 road miles on one - that is if I could bare the pain of the plank they call a seal or the ergonomics and vibration - so doubt it wold work too well in KTM 's favour. ( remember I really rate and like KTM bikes so no prejudice here).

I think most people are forgetting the CCM sits somewhere in the middle and it need to be judges against something similar - but what ? it has the ability to carry luggage and be ridden for mile upon mile of road and motorway at motorway speeds with plenty left over for safe overtakes etc - then it can play in the grass and the sand. It does both well but does not exceed at either. Almost everything else mentioned in these talks has a big compromise one side of that fence or the other.

now where are those Specs

Production starts next month.
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...t=10&start=140

As the man says (that's the guy who has actually ridden one of these CCMs, a bit) why not just stop bleating about 6-10 year old bikes, and their second hand prices, especially in comparison with a brand new product? It's just a repeated statement of the bleeding obvious and comparing apples with pears.

Ride what you brung, or go out and buy something else.

__________________
Dave

Tell you what, if said "man" is a representative of CCM, I wouldn't buy a CCM on principle, just because of his arrogant, objectionable attitude. As you link from Adventure Book Reader, anything written on there should be taken with a liberal grain of salt.

Apples/ pears? The BMW g450x (which shares the same engine as the CCM) was announced in 2007 and released in 2010 (before being discontinued shortly afterwards). That's 4/7 years. So we're talking the same time frame as 6 to10 being bleated about. You're not telling me CCM have invented some brand new concept here in 2014: It's a dirt bike with a plastic rallye-look fairing, the same technology/chassis/manufacturing used in the past decade throughout the m/c building world.

Indeed, I'll carry on riding what I brung, rather than just reading about it in a "adventure" book.

The price inflation of new bikes amazes me. I recently sold a Triumph road bike for the same money I bought it for, 9 years later. I'll probably be able to sell my DRZ for more than I bought it for too, at this rate.

__________________

Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

KTM 690 Enduro R is R109 K from the dealers floor. That will be on the road costs including all taxes, plates etc. Just ride it home. Roughly £ 5500.

There are 2 Oryx versions. The Rally sport version includes fairing, ergonomics, suspension upgrades, and more power. It is £6500. The Rally replica Oryx version, which is with the Rally Raid option, rally fairing, 27 l tank, upgrade to 68 hp etc. modelled on the Dakar 450 version, is £8000. The upgrade is done here in SA.

Same cost as the CCM but one hell of a lot more bike. This includes all transport and import duties.

The CCM is also £8000 in UK. It would be far higher here after transport and import duties. Hard to estimate how much because you would have to deduct UK taxes, and SA import ones and shipping costs. But Im sure it is much higher as everything more expensive here if it is imported. I don't know why you yanks pay so much for a 690. Maybe the Austrians don't like you for always bombing people's countries . Or perhaps Obama is slapping on massive duties to pay for his bomb and spend campaigns lol!

Again, the 690 is far cheaper, even with the Oryx upgrade to full brown Rally Raid edition. It is a no brainer as to which would sell. CCM has somehow lost the plot, not in what they try to achieve, but the cost level at which they enter the market with a new product. And the bike still needs modification to come near what you get with the Oryx.

Nice bike, but meh, value for money?

I attended the WIMA event and wrote an opinion elsewhere but because I questioned some of the design and power delivery, I'm hesitant to air my view. However....

+1

Overall, I liked it but not enough to put a deposit on one (yet).

There were 23 riders & 4 bikes. To fit everyone into 7 hours & allowing for riding experience, change-over, etc we were restricted to 45 minutes.

I'm short so opted for a lowered version which has a modified frame as well as different forks.

On tarmac it was a hoot to ride but off road, I found the throttle too sensitive making it difficult to ride slowly. Later, I discovered I wasn't the only rider to complain about the snatchy throttle so it couldn't have been just my bike....
I also thought the suspension was rock hard. Someone pointed that the lowered version had almost no angle on the swing-arm.

I also dislike the location of the fuel cap. Fuel pumps are prone to drip & worse still, filling using a funnel by someone who doesn't care - I simply don't want petrol on my gear.

It would have been nice to discuss my views with CCM but there wasn't time for tinkering & we weren't at CCM's base in Bolton. It was just a matter of getting riders through the day.

I really appreciated the time and effort CCM made on a BH weekend & I will consider going to their base for a longer test ride. Just not yet.

__________________
Elaine

Striving to live the ordinary life in a non ordinary way

How much will it cost to add an oil leak to the CCM to make it like a true piece of birtish machinery

I agree, as stated earlier, most likely chassis and set up.
Also agree, the motor is most likely OK, after all, Knight's team mates scored well riding BMW's, podium finishes for two years it ran.

But no one has put 10's of thousands of road miles on that motor... YET. So, in a way, it's untested as a true travel bike motor. I'm betting it's OK given good maintenance.

Taiwan has struggled for independence since 1949, but these days it's widely recognized as being part of CHINA (PRC), just like Hong Kong. But still somewhat independent of China ... but make no mistake ... the PRC are really in control. Check your recent history.

Nonetheless, Kymco is a really good company. The culture and tech of Taiwan are far ahead of mainland China ... but Taiwan IS now part of China.
Taiwan have true 1st world tech (but China is getting there). China have let Taiwan remain somewhat independent, knowing it's in their interest to let this thriving capitalist success story alone.

Having done a factory tour of Yamaha in Japan ... I can assure you "mass produced" does not mean "tacked together budget bike".
Yamaha don't do "tacked together", trust me, been there, seen it. Also been to BMW and Triumph.

You have NO IDEA how sophisticated Yamaha are, no idea the extent of their R & D efforts, torture testing and severe quality control. No small OEM can even come close.

KTM have got there after decades of problems ... and producing crap, real unreliable crap, having "basic principles" problems which the Japanese over came decades earlier. KTM worked hard, copied German and Japanese production techniques to get better and sold out to Bajai and their BILLIONS to get themselves to world class quality. They always made a good two stroke, but struggled for decades with their four strokes.

This all sounds good and hopeful! How the CCM will actually hold up over the long term on the road, doing 10's of thousands of hard miles, remains to be seen. I wish them all the luck!

I think David Knight's issue with the G450X was the geometry and not the engine, which makes plenty of power. He wanted the engine moved in the frame, BMW refused but I've seen pics of at least one bike where the engine is moved forwards and the swingarm is no longer co-axial with the front sprocket.

CCM do not have the buying power of KTM etc, so economies of scale come in to play, affecting their purchase costs and hence the retail price of the bike.

Someone mentioned that the lowered GP450 had almost no angle on the swingarm? That's what happens when you lower any bike, it's unavoidable unless you re-engineer the frame with different swing arm position in the frame, hard enough on a regular bike but impractical on a bike where the swingarm pivots in line with the front sprocket (I believe that the CCM does, as did the G450X but am ready to be proved wrong as I can't be bothered looking it up). Re: harder forks on the same bike, generally if you reduce suspension travel on an offroad style bike, it's a good idea to firm up the suspension to avoid bottoming out when ridden hard. I'm surprised no one's complained that the lowered bike had reduced ground clearance and this alone proves poor value for money.

I still can't believe the negativity surrounding this bike? If you feel it's too expensive and that you'll never buy one for whatever reason, fair enough but at least stop the bitching please.

__________________
My photos: www.possu.smugmug.com

A Brit complaining about people whinging? That is the pot calling the kettle black

But in all seriousness, the OP discusses the bike as suitable for long journeys. Price is certainly one of the very important factors in choosing a bike. Price of the bike and price of modifications required. Here the CCM is not really a contender and is bowled.

Let us look at other aspects:

Reliability: who knows? It hasn't been around long enough. Given what others have said about it's past record, it doesn't seem like it scores runs here. Im not sure. Dot ball

Parts availability: BMWs, DRZ, KLRs etc have a wide spread availability. Im not sure about parts for the 450 in the CCM. what about other parts? There certainly isn't a dealer network. Dot ball

Luggage: The bike will need modification to carry more fuel and luggage. How will that affect the bike? Another unknown. Maybe the same as other smaller lighter bikes? No ball.

will the CMM be bowled? I certainly don't see CCM hitting the adventure travel market for a six.

So isn't it premature to say 'the bike is ready for long distance travel'?

Feel free to discuss other aspects pertaining to travel:
Fuel economy, servicing, ergonomics, wind and bum protection, crashability (how well protected are components in a small fall) etc.

These can only be discussed by people that know the bike so it would be enlightening.

Perhaps CCM needs to sponsor Charlie and Ewan on a Long Way Whine to promote the bike as a credible tourer lol. Just please don't give Ewan a video camera to record a journal, unless we give a quote,' stop the bitching please' (Pickford, 2014) lol!

Perhaps the most fair way to evaluate the bike is to give it a rating, say 1-10, in various categories pertaining to requirements of a travel bike such as:

Basic price
costs of modifications
parts availability
dealer support network
ease of service
service interval
synthetic vs non synthetic oil (availability and cost)
weight and its distribution on the bike
fuel economy
reliability
handling with luggage
ergonomics
crashability
technical ability in rough terrain
suspension and comfort
comfort on tar
known problems for which spares required
sensitivity to low grade fuel
ground clearance and water clearance


Standard things usually measured like HP, torque, power to weight ratio, gear ratios etc are not as relevant. Only their secondary impact on things like technical ability and comfort on tar, fuel economy etc

Then grade other popular bikes such as the BMW GS range, the KTM adv bikes, Suzukis, kawasakis, Yamahas, Hondas and see how the CCM compares. THis is in effect the trade offs people consider when selecting a bike for the type of riding they do and where they will ride.

So people who have ridden the bike, scribble away and compare to bikes the rest of us know.

That can be found elsewhere, such as in the link that I provided.

However, it is early days (again, production starts next month), and with the Rand going south over the last few years the 450GP is unlikely to be on sale in South Africa, for a while at least.
The same goes for the USA with the US$ now at 1.7 to the £.

CCM will be able to make a living with sales into the European market? Let's see how it goes, and, please let us not assume that a bike, any bike, will have the same asking price in each and every market.

__________________
Dave

I'm quite sure the CCM will be sold in the USA. You don't pass up a market that's 20 times the size of any other. And yes ... prices WILL be adjusted market to market. We pay in Dollars (generally) what Brits pay in UKP. Been that way a long long time. The lower the dollar goes ... the better for CCM.

CCM will have to compete ... but there are PLENTY of newly wealthy Dot.com hipsters here and thousands of One Percenter rich guys out there to support CCM. Just look at the booming sales of $25,000 BMW GSA's, $20K KTM 1190's, Ducati Panigle's, MV Augusta. Sales are better than they've ever been, records broken for BMW. Look it up.

So, IMO, there is a "niche" for CCM in the USA. But they'll need professional marketing to "Sell" the bike and a small dealer network of some kind. CCM are NOT new in the USA. I know of at least two past generations were sold at a local dealer here in San Francisco going back to the 90's. I'm betting that relationship will continue. The local dealer now sell Ducati, MV Augusta, Triumph, Moto Guzzi and formerly Husqvarna ... and could possibly take on CCM. Or ... the KTM/Aprilia dealer down the block may take them? Dunno.

The last generation of CCM they carried did not sell well. Bikes sat on the floor unsold for a couple years. Time will tell. Hope the new bike can do well!