Chris, your really hitting at this bike again - really it is not needed, to be so negative about a fledgling project such as CCM, more so when your views may be quite influential within the HUBB network by way of your experience, background and travel history.
As you will know and I am sure there will be many people who look up to the like of yourself for advice and guidance from your wide experience which is fair enough, however if you have your facts wrong ( different to your personal views) that then would be very unfair to the likes of CCM looking at what they are trying to achieve and where they are at the moment.
You have not ridden the bike but you have a mate that did not like it - well there are many that have ridden it and thought it excellent - two friends of mine who like yourself have done big trips - massive cross continent trips - on various bikes both say they would consider the bike very high on the list of bikes.
I have not yet ridden the bike for various reasons but still cannot see why your so negative I can only be positive about it in its concept.
The CCM is new and offers something that does not exist to this market - it also appears of high build quality - yes it need proven but so does everything new to the market. CCM have it appears learnt from the past and hopefully (given the chance) moved on into a new chapter with this bike.
Bye the way (as for drz's something many people often refer to) one of the riders i mention above also ownes a drz and does not rate it that highly, constantly goes on about - various aspects of the poor build quality, the know failings and unreliable side of the DRZ series history. Thats not to mention the amount of money spent to bring his particular bike up to a reasonable level - still not comparable to the CCM.
To add to that I did some work on the bike with him recently - and have to say i was shocked at the poor quality of simple things like the electrics and some of the chassis welding - I was surprised as this was on a very low mileage bike.
I currently ride a Cagiva elefant at the moment another bike you would not rate - based on what ? an italian bias a ducati bias -who knows - but the quality of the chassis and general engineering are simply years ahead of its time and even the wiring (now almost 20 years old and with a tiny amount of modifcation) on the Elefant are way ahead of the much more modern drz. (I agree the Elefant is a little more complex to work on the engine) but still easy enough. I think we will never agree on our views over this CCM or the Elefant or the BMW for that matter but hey ho. Why however go on about the CCM - when you have nothing good to say about the machine nor any experience of it.

Jake, the point remains, you can take a bike like the KTM 690, put enough Rally raid stuff on it, up to or below the cost of the CCM and end up with far more bike for your money: same weight class, more power, more range, luggage potential. As far as handling, you would have to ride both. But hard to beat the KTM suspension set up.

The point isn't the CCM is a bad bike, but value for money. I just figure if I spent £8000 I would have a far better custom bike. To try and enter a market at a price range exceeding a fully kitted out rally bike with a known reputation doesn't seem like good marketing. After £8000 you are still left with a bike you must modify to carry fuel and luggage. And how will the 450 motor cope with that?

Kradmelder,I take that point and its constructive - then your left down to choice, my point was that Chris ( who I know and like so its nothing personal by the way just a differing point of view and approach to this bike) does not add particularly constructive criticism just criticism mainly of CCM full stop.
Also here in the UK to add the rally raid gear to a ktm is a bit more expensive than the CCM. I have owned and really rate the KTM series bikes having travelled a reasonable bit on one. However I was not taken at all with the 690 its far to biased as an out an out dirt bike whereas the CCM is a bit more middle of the road than that.
Look at anyone who has ridden one on the dirt - absolute amateurs have found the bike is easy to ride and give a very reassuring feel and degree of competence - the 690 is a bit more of a handful, maybe thats where the CCm is better suited.
The lad who I quoted as having a drz also has a KTM 950 's' and a ktm 640 adventure both of which he has done some major mileage on - he is also a very very competent rider in any environment - he has ridden the CCM on and off road NOT on a guided tour by the factory team. He rates the CCM very highly and at its worst it is as capable as the 640 - something I would never think I would hear him say and believe me that would be very hard earned praise. The CCm wil have no doubt as you point out some limitations and failings you cant cover everything to everyone.going custom may be the best way to achieve certain requirements however many people simply are not willing or are not able to do that. Also the target market here in UK and Europe i would think are maybe quite different to the market and requirements down in your end of the world.

Bye the way I think this - road /off road real world test by minkyhead speaks up a bit for the CCM

CCM 450 Adventure - Page 74 - ADVrider

Jake.

I'm curious what the On The Road price is ... in South Africa ... for a new
KTM 690 Enduro? Here, it's about $10,500 USD, add in tax, lic. dealer prep, close to $12,000 on the road. How does S. Africa compare? :confused1:

Sometimes in technical riding the smaller, lighter bike is easier to handle.
I can go faster on a technical trail on a 250 than a 450.

£8000 is about equal to $12,000 USD. Seems to me, you're starting about at the same price point with either bike. I know guys spend A LOT more than $2000 usd on "customizing" the 690. The rear sub frame kit is an interesting
problem ... since the stock 690 has no subframe.

No question the 690 is a great bike ... and better every year. I rode 1st year model and a 2013, which was better. Even if I could afford these bikes, I'm not sure I'd buy one for a travel bike.

I hope CCM does well with the bike. They are headed in the right direction
but need to, IMO, get costs in line.

KTM 690 Enduro R is R109 K from the dealers floor. That will be on the road costs including all taxes, plates etc. Just ride it home. Roughly £ 5500.

There are 2 Oryx versions. The Rally sport version includes fairing, ergonomics, suspension upgrades, and more power. It is £6500. The Rally replica Oryx version, which is with the Rally Raid option, rally fairing, 27 l tank, upgrade to 68 hp etc. modelled on the Dakar 450 version, is £8000. The upgrade is done here in SA.

Same cost as the CCM but one hell of a lot more bike. This includes all transport and import duties.

The CCM is also £8000 in UK. It would be far higher here after transport and import duties. Hard to estimate how much because you would have to deduct UK taxes, and SA import ones and shipping costs. But Im sure it is much higher as everything more expensive here if it is imported. I don't know why you yanks pay so much for a 690. Maybe the Austrians don't like you for always bombing people's countries . Or perhaps Obama is slapping on massive duties to pay for his bomb and spend campaigns lol!

Again, the 690 is far cheaper, even with the Oryx upgrade to full brown Rally Raid edition. It is a no brainer as to which would sell. CCM has somehow lost the plot, not in what they try to achieve, but the cost level at which they enter the market with a new product. And the bike still needs modification to come near what you get with the Oryx.

Nice bike, but meh, value for money?

Everybody is allowed their opinion. Yours counts for as much as mine = very little. I think you're over-egging it a bit implying I'm an opinion leader. Nobody gives a toss about what I think. The evidence is plain to see. I think oil head GSs are bag of sh!te and everybody rides one .

Which facts do I have wrong with regard to CCM?


Good luck to CCM. They definitely need to learn from their history of mistakes. I really can't see this market niche that will make them much money. Everybody else is building bigger/heavier/faster road oriented faux-adventure bikes and seem to be making big money. Maybe people want to pay £8k for a dirtbike. Just because I won't, makes no difference to anyone.

Dazzer, who rode the bike at Haggs Bank at the WIMA event (let's not discuss why he's at a women only bike event... ) didn't like it. His opinion also counts for the same as yours or mine.

You haven't ridden the bike, yet wear rose tinted glasses. Great. I haven't either, and my glasses are less rose tinted. I don't see it as a big deal either way.

I said I was going to test ride it at the weekend at Donington. You need to show your driver's licence. I've got to post my licence to the Derbyshire Constabulary this week to have speeding points added so won't be testing it


I bought my DRZ for £2000 including a big tank. The bike didn't need any sorting and is great for what it is and has had some great trips to Morocco and other European destinations. I haven't had any issues worth mentioning with the bike. A chap I rode with in Siberia last summer, rode a stock XR400 Honda (just a bigger tank) from the UK to Magadan and back(!) with no issues. It cost him £800. (not £8000!)


Now you're in the land of fantasy Jake, claiming to know what I think of Cagiva Elefants I quite like them and have a soft spot for Italian vehicles.

Oh yeh, I now own an Aprillia. Actually it's a BMW X Challenge, but it's essentially an Italian Aprillia. The only thing German is the badge and the mapping of the EFI unit.

If you're at Donington, let's drink a .

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TBS.com

Chris i am not at Donnington - so no drink sorry.

I did not say your facts were wrong but they are mainly historic and companies change and can evolve, and make good I don't think you are prepared to let that past rest and give them a chance - a new day dawning and all that.

Rose tinted specs - maybe but more like very bright psychedelic actually - but just want to see a British company making a bike do well more the point, your right about opinions - but your pretty well up on the list of people who people will listen to by virtue of your scribe work and experiences regarding travel - I am not.
I respect Dazzers opinion and he is a hell of a rider - it surprises me he does not rate the bike - but maybe its aimed more at novices like myself.

Elefants - you let me know once what a bad choice that would be - good luck with it - giving a bit of a feel that they were not a bike to head for - so again you really surprise me with the nice comment there - that really deserves a .

Then you tell me you have got an Italian bike - ye gads be careful - it could be a long slow slide down a slippy and ever steeper slope.

I know many cheap bikes go many places reliably - bike are not about the money to me if you can afford them and like them then that's the equation I apply.

I perfectly understand that a cheap bike is and can be a good thing in a far off place - that makes sense in many ways - but all bikes start off new and reasonably expensive at some point - like many things hand built and or quality can cost more. (note and / or) as the two do not always go together.


Finally you should not have been going so fast -bad lad and if you were your observation should have seen the one that caught you before he/she/machine whatever had a chance to do so - then you would have been riding within your observational limits. TUT TUT. Keep smiling Jake.

Hi folks,

of course the CCM isn't a cheap bike, but the price is "only" £ 300 more than a KTM 690 Enduro R, which is stronger but "naked", that means you have to invest approx. £ 2000 more (with Rally Raid products, KTM-Basel offers an even more expensive but very good and proven kit) to get it ready for traveling. The CCM comes with an 18-litres-fuel-tank which is good enough for a range of about 400 km and a good windscreen so there is not much to do to before start a longer trip. Don't misunderstand me, I love the LC4 (i have one in my 690 Duke R) and the GP 450 still has to prove that the bike will make it but I think we should give it a chance. The market will answer our questions anayway. At least I really enjoyed my ride around Salter Fell and the Through of Bowland and offroad I conceived it more handy than a 690 Enduro, which i rided very often before. In my opinion there is a place for the CCM GP 450 Adventure, even in my plans as I am looking for a smaller playmate for my Tiger (and still thinking about KTM, but now also a little bit CCM)...

And I know that I could get a (used) lightweight bike for less money and build it up by myself, but out of the shop there is at the moment nothing comparable.

Sorry for my English!

So long,

da Wolf

Mollydog I don't know the answers either but through my very rosey specs the world is very different place to that inhabited by the rest of you poor mortals

Dave knight and the BMW tie up / breakdown - who knows the full facts except Dave knight - but I would suspect if it was the bike it was the chassis that did not work fromwhat various reports say - but it could have been the rigid flexability shown by the BMW management that made it unworkable, I would expect the engine was reasonably fine for the job and Mr knight would be able to compensate for its shortcomings if any by his skill level.

The CCM engine is made in Tiawan not China - very different countries with different political and and economical bases.

CCM have made some changes to the running of 450 engine - ie ignition set up etc to change its character to suit this application.

Trying to compare a well built small manufacturer product with very high quality components and a mass produced tacked together budget bike will give massive price differences so comparing CCM to a Yamaha is not really fair the KTM is about the only comparable bike and really we should be looking at the 450 ktm for a more balanced comparison cost in the UK £7349 - its a pure off road bike thats barely road legal and no way would I want to cover 500 road miles on one - that is if I could bare the pain of the plank they call a seal or the ergonomics and vibration - so doubt it wold work too well in KTM 's favour. ( remember I really rate and like KTM bikes so no prejudice here).

I think most people are forgetting the CCM sits somewhere in the middle and it need to be judges against something similar - but what ? it has the ability to carry luggage and be ridden for mile upon mile of road and motorway at motorway speeds with plenty left over for safe overtakes etc - then it can play in the grass and the sand. It does both well but does not exceed at either. Almost everything else mentioned in these talks has a big compromise one side of that fence or the other.

now where are those Specs

Production starts next month.
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...t=10&start=140

As the man says (that's the guy who has actually ridden one of these CCMs, a bit) why not just stop bleating about 6-10 year old bikes, and their second hand prices, especially in comparison with a brand new product? It's just a repeated statement of the bleeding obvious and comparing apples with pears.

Ride what you brung, or go out and buy something else.

__________________
Dave

Tell you what, if said "man" is a representative of CCM, I wouldn't buy a CCM on principle, just because of his arrogant, objectionable attitude. As you link from Adventure Book Reader, anything written on there should be taken with a liberal grain of salt.

Apples/ pears? The BMW g450x (which shares the same engine as the CCM) was announced in 2007 and released in 2010 (before being discontinued shortly afterwards). That's 4/7 years. So we're talking the same time frame as 6 to10 being bleated about. You're not telling me CCM have invented some brand new concept here in 2014: It's a dirt bike with a plastic rallye-look fairing, the same technology/chassis/manufacturing used in the past decade throughout the m/c building world.

Indeed, I'll carry on riding what I brung, rather than just reading about it in a "adventure" book.

The price inflation of new bikes amazes me. I recently sold a Triumph road bike for the same money I bought it for, 9 years later. I'll probably be able to sell my DRZ for more than I bought it for too, at this rate.

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TBS.com

I agree, as stated earlier, most likely chassis and set up.
Also agree, the motor is most likely OK, after all, Knight's team mates scored well riding BMW's, podium finishes for two years it ran.

But no one has put 10's of thousands of road miles on that motor... YET. So, in a way, it's untested as a true travel bike motor. I'm betting it's OK given good maintenance.

Taiwan has struggled for independence since 1949, but these days it's widely recognized as being part of CHINA (PRC), just like Hong Kong. But still somewhat independent of China ... but make no mistake ... the PRC are really in control. Check your recent history.

Nonetheless, Kymco is a really good company. The culture and tech of Taiwan are far ahead of mainland China ... but Taiwan IS now part of China.
Taiwan have true 1st world tech (but China is getting there). China have let Taiwan remain somewhat independent, knowing it's in their interest to let this thriving capitalist success story alone.

Having done a factory tour of Yamaha in Japan ... I can assure you "mass produced" does not mean "tacked together budget bike".
Yamaha don't do "tacked together", trust me, been there, seen it. Also been to BMW and Triumph.

You have NO IDEA how sophisticated Yamaha are, no idea the extent of their R & D efforts, torture testing and severe quality control. No small OEM can even come close.

KTM have got there after decades of problems ... and producing crap, real unreliable crap, having "basic principles" problems which the Japanese over came decades earlier. KTM worked hard, copied German and Japanese production techniques to get better and sold out to Bajai and their BILLIONS to get themselves to world class quality. They always made a good two stroke, but struggled for decades with their four strokes.

This all sounds good and hopeful! How the CCM will actually hold up over the long term on the road, doing 10's of thousands of hard miles, remains to be seen. I wish them all the luck!

I think David Knight's issue with the G450X was the geometry and not the engine, which makes plenty of power. He wanted the engine moved in the frame, BMW refused but I've seen pics of at least one bike where the engine is moved forwards and the swingarm is no longer co-axial with the front sprocket.

CCM do not have the buying power of KTM etc, so economies of scale come in to play, affecting their purchase costs and hence the retail price of the bike.

Someone mentioned that the lowered GP450 had almost no angle on the swingarm? That's what happens when you lower any bike, it's unavoidable unless you re-engineer the frame with different swing arm position in the frame, hard enough on a regular bike but impractical on a bike where the swingarm pivots in line with the front sprocket (I believe that the CCM does, as did the G450X but am ready to be proved wrong as I can't be bothered looking it up). Re: harder forks on the same bike, generally if you reduce suspension travel on an offroad style bike, it's a good idea to firm up the suspension to avoid bottoming out when ridden hard. I'm surprised no one's complained that the lowered bike had reduced ground clearance and this alone proves poor value for money.

I still can't believe the negativity surrounding this bike? If you feel it's too expensive and that you'll never buy one for whatever reason, fair enough but at least stop the bitching please.

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Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Technical, Bike forums > Other Bikes Tech
CCM GP 450 Adventure CCM GP 450 Adventure

Does anyone have some info that is not ??
(I believe this may be the only thread in the HUBB that refers to this particular bike).

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Dave