Have you seen and examined or ridden the GP450? If not, then your words lack the relevancy of someone who has spent time riding the moto.

In my 45 years of motorcycle riding, motos have failed me- including transmissions on a Suzuki and a Yamaha, and electrical problems and general craziness of a Husky CR360 like Mikkola used. As well a Suzuki did well for two seasons traveling, as has a Yamaha that is very good but tends to get a lot of unreasonable illogical dissing online- much like the above.

What is online about the GP450 supports overwhelmingly that it is a very good moto, and thus far no big problems showing up.

One of these bikes has been used to follow the 2015 Dakar race; pics in the link -
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...t=10&start=170

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Dave

Both you guys make fair points. Mtnguy, is the Noob here and may want to consider reading what's gone before and what's been said about this bike on another thread here:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ure-bike-69964

Pretty much covers it all. I'm on there with a few opinions as is Stuxtttr and several other knowledgeable HUBB members with VAST experience. it's 20 some pages and well worth the read if you want a broader ranges of voices on the CCM450 GP, the companies history and it's future. Very useful thread with a few diversions.

All that said ... one can't deny the questionable history of CCM. But for me, I'm totally willing to give CCM the benefit of the doubt. Lets just not forget that the CCM "Phoenix" has risen from ashes at least twice (I'm aware of) ... and I know little about them, never owned or ridden one. Maybe more to their history ... ??

But seems they've gone back to "ze old drawing board" more than once ... and this bike really does look good (IMO). But they have carried over a few design elements I disagree with .... namely the swingarm shaft going through the countershaft. This is Horst Leitner's (ATK) idea ... and failed on several bikes ... including BMW's own World Enduro GP race bikes when David Knight was riding for them. It's also a BAD IDEA to have on a travel bike for a number of reasons. (remove swingarm for sprocket change or changing chain? )

I rode ATK's in the 90's and watched these systems fail ... in person. The rear brake rotor was also located up on the countershaft! They burnt up... literally. Some say it helps handling. If it's such a good idea how come no world champion race bikes use it? NONE of the Japanese use it ... but I do know they tried it ... back in the 1980 ...and realized it was NOT SUITED for a Moto cross or off road bike. They never went back to it.
See also:
ATK motorcycles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ATK models & brand history - autoevolution

Here in California, my local dealer carried CCM going back to the early to mid 90's. Not positive, but IIRC the first one I saw used a Rotax motor? Next one I saw a few years later used (I think) either a Suzuki DR650 motor or a DRZ400 motor?? ... don't recall which. The bikes looked pretty trick ... but very few were sold, dealer ended up eating it on them. I doubt he'll be signed up to carry anymore CCM, given his 10 years (or so) of experience with them.

I wish CCM all the best ... and many have very short memories and don't do research. So who knows? Perhaps CCM have a shot at success. We DO need such a bike in this class, that we all pretty much agree on. But is the CCM more a Race Bike more suited to racing the Dakar than going RTW on a budget?

Yes, sounds like problems in the past. I think one can make that case for any brand of moto. Even Honda had some duds.

The data that is accumulating in regard to the CCM GP450 so far seems ok. Wait and see.

You have clearly stated a key cultural difference between the "good old Brit" nation and the "upstart, breakaway colonials".
In the UK we just don't do "forgive", never mind "forget", especially in business.

I think this results in a lack of entrepreneurs in Britain: much business research has been done on this matter - we punish miscreant businesses very harshly compared with the business law in the USA.

I think I have read, or heard in conversation with the CCM staff at the UK show last November, that the front sprocket can be removed without detaching the swinging arm: hopefully, one or more of the new owners can confirm if this is the case.

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Dave

I hope I'm wrong on that ... but seems it was stated early on in discussions on the CCM? Not really sure. Anyone confirm?

Where and how does the swingarm attach? Does main splined drive shaft go through swing arm and countershaft sprocket?

I know the BMW 450 GP race bikes used this system. With this system I would also be concerned with bearing wear. Normally swingarm bearings aren't something RTW riders need to worry about very often. But with that system?
Dunno ? :confused1:

I'll have a look on CCM site and report back.
EDIT:
OK, here is what is stated on CCM website:

Swingarm
Race track derived rear swing arm using a pivot point near to concentric with the output shaft to reduce chain tension variation and increase traction on loose surfaces. Careful controlled lateral flex leads to a swingarm giving a smooth and predictable ride on the road with the strength and ability to handle the toughest terrain possible.

I question the "race track derived" ... what major OEM race team has ever used such a system besides BMW's very brief
involvement in World Enduro? The above statement seems bit vague, anyone have a more detailed technical explanation?

Unless there was more then one ATK-design their solution was pretty different. I think their aim was to generate a parallelogram to get a paralever-effect.

Unlike the G450X-engine the sprocket was not placed at the swingarm.
BTW: Changing the sprocket on a G450X takes 15-20 minutes..

The brake looks a bit funny, but it will save more then a kg unsprung mass.

Yes, many ATK designs over the years ... (find info in the links I posted). There is quite a long history with ATK. On again, Off again production for YEARS! MANY designs that Horst Leitner patented. Only a few bikes had the rear brake at the countershaft. I rode one ... a 250 two stroke if I recall. It was a good bike for 1988 but that brake caused problems. A friend owned it ... then someone stole it! Never seen again!

I also rode (and worked on) other ATK's (mid 90's) ... Rotax 600 ones used by San Francisco Police for about 2 years, then all sold off ... cheap. IIRC, these bikes all had the main shaft going through the front sprocket and swingarm, like the GS450 and CCM. If set up right, good bikes but very fiddly to deal with, but good strong motor.

I'm no expert on ATK or GS450's, ATK's were a LONG time ago for me ... but I DO remember David Knight commenting on the BMW a few years back ... he gave up millions and quit the team due to not getting on with the bike. But his team mates were getting podiums on the SAME bike. So who knows? :confused1:

I believe it was on SOME ATK bikes, not the ones with the brake there as shown in your pic ... I believe Leitner holds a patent for this design ... you may find his patents in links I posted ... I think?

Yes, true, there were always some good things in Leitner's designs and his bikes were always LIGHT WEIGHT ... but some had fatal flaws too. He nearly made it. Hung on for years here in the USA.

For me, I would not want to break loose a big swing arm bolt when on the road. On many bikes this type of bolt is torqued to about 100 to 120 ft. lbs.
I have Nothing in my tool kit that could handle that.
Perhaps CCM have made it easier to access the sprocket? I hope so. They've thought through just about everything ... so maybe it's a moot point?

I hope CCM can manage enough sales to get some solid feedback on the bikes long term performance and reliability.

Love the look and concept of the bike ... but for me? .... too old, to out of shape and too poor to ever own such a Gem ... and I'd never take it to "unstable" regions of the world! Kudos and good luck to those who will!

Have you?


Please share the website links pro and con the ccm that support this statement.

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TBS.com

No, I have not offered opinion other than about what I see online. Your comment seems to be the exception. You give puffed-up derision of experiences related by a decent, down to earth guy sharing his experiences. Apparently your brief ride on a moto trumps all of the other experiences given, in detail? At least in your mind, I am sure.


I think that you and most others reading this know about what has been posted, but thanks for that arrogant challenge.

CCM 450 Adventure - ADVrider

http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...happy-day.html

Edit to add- Thanks to the above posting I read some of the previous thread. Chris, you speak as if you have very serious hatred toward anything CCM in that thread. I just find it distasteful that such arrogant and derisive comments are railed against the real and extensive accounts of a decent, regular guy. Yep, got it, nothing from CCM EVER is ok with Chris. Thanks.

You questioned stuxtttr whether he had ever ridden one. Hence it would seem reasonable to ask you the same question. Or not.

You admit you've neither ridden, nor seen one in the flesh.

I have and have spoken to several people with a longer adventure biking CVs that most, who have also tried it. They concurred with my view. At the end of my "ride report" I suggested due diligence be carried out.

Of the 2 links you posted, how many of the unique posters have ridden one and how many comments are just idle chit chat (not a problem in itself, but not something most people would base a bike-buying decision on)? And how many are the same people contributing to the 3 (here and the 2 you link to) parallel threads.

A noob with no profile / public CV / signature completed and bandying about with emotive hyperbole like "hatred", "arrogant", "distasteful" etc in a thread started 7 months ago, could, to some, seem like the actions of an internet troll.

Why not book a test ride and report back with something that moves the discussion forward?

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TBS.com