Vienna-Wolfe - really nice film - it least it shows the bike and engine is capable and controllable in pretty slippy conditions I like that ride out. Excellent.

Chris I liked your comment - simply because its your opinion having rode the bike on the road and off road i think for about 45 minutes to an hour you were away. I was there when you did the ride - I can vouch that you were hoping to like the bike and that you had told me over breakfast that it would be good to be proven wrong on your opinion of CCM and the bike. However on your return you really were unhappy with the handling - You were upfront to the CCM lads as well at the time.

Your comments are based on your experience whether folk agree or not with your view - they are your views from your ride. - so fair enough.

A number of riders did dislike the bike, however an equal number loved the bike - its a bit of a marmite bike it appears. Love it or Hate it. No middle ground.

I did not ride the bike as I was not in a position to do any off roading at the time - so did not take the bike out - still to me its one stunning piece of machinery and engineering. Now wish i had taken one just down the road for a short road ride that day.

jake.

It's a little dicey taking opinions from random riders whose experience on such bikes may be limited and who's dirt bike back ground on REAL dirt bikes may be nil.

What needs to happen is what happens to ALL new bikes: Testing. Collect 3 or 4 other similar bikes in the CCM's class, let Novice to Expert level riders have good go on them ... tally up the results. Hopefully not just a 1/2 hour ride but more like a week riding ALL the bikes in question, ridden over a variety of terrain, loaded and unloaded of gear.

If I were editor, off the top of my head I would pick from the following road legal bikes to include in the Comparo to the CCM:

Husqvarna TE310 (made by KTM)
KTM 450EXC
KTM 350EXC
Yamaha 250R
Beta 450 dual sport (road legal)

Also in contention?
Honda 450RR Rally Bike (if available)
Suzuki DRZ400S

Take them all out and do some hard riding on them. The Novices would not be complete dirt bike Noobs, but just not AA level pro racers. They ALL should be good street riders as well as competent off road riders.

+1 to Marmite bike. The great thing about the vast majority of this HUBB thread, compared to the ABR thread that was linked in post #56 is that here people can discuss and disagree without people having tantrums about it. Elsewhere if you go against the forum's (self proclaimed) opinion leaders' topic for the next love-in, they get really shirty. Hey ho, good luck to them.

The HUBB has possibly matured: Anyone remember the aggro here a few years ago when some people dared to criticise that well known brand from Germany

Never bothered reading the advrider thread, so have no opinion on it.


Opinions are like ar$eholes. We all have one and what someone spouts is 99% of the time just hot air or pure brown stuff.

Having said that, most of the nay-sayers that Jake refers to are experienced long distance travellers, hobby or ex-professional enduro riders. All were potential customers. They're not now. They'll stick to their crf250s /xr400s/ drz400s etc.

Assuming all CCMs aren't just a mess straight out the box, the bike I rode might have behaved better if it had been set up right. If it was just set up badly, then it's a high risk marketing strategy to send a couple of dog-bikes to an event where every person attending (+/-200) was a potential customer.

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TBS.com

I've had a go. On road and off-road.

Like Chris I was un-impressed. I didn't HATE it but I think I was expecting a lot more for that kind of price.

The engine felt horrible. Vibey and twitchy and the strangely geared. It was hard to find a gear that I was happy in. However it was still in prototype stage. I don't know if they are/will still making any changed since I rode it in late 2014.

I also didn't like the geometry. But I put that down to the bikes being set up for other riders as they were demo's.

On a whole, I would love to see CCM do well. I'd love to support a British brand.

However, I would never recommend a friend to buy one as an adventure bike as I rode it. There are just far too many trusted, proven an arguably better bikes in that category for a quite a few thousand quid cheaper.

In fact a ten year old DRZ400 with just some basic mods would make the CCM look unnecessary an can be picked up for under £2000.

And would that 450 lump and space aged frame survive a RTW off-road adventure ??? Is anyone testing it ???

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Good point! I wonder if CCM are perhaps still figuring out their customer base. Bit late to be doing that at this late date ...
Seems like the long term, long distance RTW testing should have been done over a year ago, before things were locked in?

Maybe they could sponsor a team or two to get out there and wave the flag?
Get some press, establish some cred?

But at the asking price ... it may be a stretch for many young budding ADV riders?

Yeah, tell me about it!

The list you've given above is great for an afternoon's dirt riding, but what Minkyhead and others (including me) are looking for is a lightweight adventure tourer.

A bike that's designed to be used for long distance trips, able to cruise at the legal limit, weather protection, capable of taking luggage for a long trip, decent fuel range, good lighting and as agile as possible off tarmac.

So I don't think most of the bikes you've quoted above are comparable to the GP450. The competitor that comes up time and time again is the KTM 690 R. Both have long service intervals (10,000km for the KTM and 8,000 for the CCM), both can carry touring luggage. The GP450 has the edge on fuel capacity and touring fairing, the 690 R has the edge on performance.

I had an inconclusive test ride of the GP450 (road tyres, only 500m of off tarmac, no luggage). But after a bad experience with BMW I'm not prepared to be a 'beta tester' again for a new range of bikes so I went with the 690 R and last month concluded a four-week 7,800 km tour using a practically standard bike with zero mishaps.

I wish CCM well and might well be interested in the GP450 a couple of years down the line.

.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

I just read Minkyhead's comments on his CCM on that other ADV forum ... good stuff. But seems to me he's saying a well fettled DRZ400S could match the CCM tit for tat (and at 1/4 the cost) ... might even out last it? Dozens of DRZ400S riders have done cross continent and beyond. No news there. The WR250R is also a contender and is PROVEN ADV Travel bike.

The bikes listed are ALL street legal bikes ... but would they be "as good" as the CCM on long runs with lots of highway, fully loaded? Dunno? Lots depends on set up.

I'm fairly certain the DRZ400S and WR could do it ... and, if you're now including the 690, then why not add the DR650 in the mix as well?

Those are good points but as I stated, we know the DRZ can do it ... and the WR250R too.

Many have done tours fully loaded and reports are good on both. Don't know about the Husky's or KTM's but reports on the new Beta dual sports is very good so far. And realistically, the CCM ain't got no cred as of yet. So it's really still in the "wait and see" phase, yes?

If KTM 690 can match CCM off road...then perhaps CCM have work to do!

Having ridden the 690 On and Off road I know what it is and what it isn't. It's not a full on Enduro trail bike, and in my estimation the CCM should be the Better bike off road, yes?
On road, of course the KTM 690 has a big advantage. No contest there ... with longevity being the only question.

In all this we have to calculate value and costs ... and of course intention. How much better is a £8K CCM over buying a used DRZ400S for £2000 and putting another £1000 into it? And how much will the new CCM owner put into his bike? No bike is perfect from new. So that £8000 figure could go UP.

You could do the same comparison with a DR650 vs. KTM 690. I could buy 3 used DR650's for the cost of one well set up 690.

No bikes last forever ... I prefer cheap, cheerful ... and expendable. Real travel bikes live a rough and unpredictable life ... and some come to a sad end. I'd rather lose my £2000 DR650 or DRZ400, then a £8000 CCM or 690.

It's illogical to compare the cost of any new bike against the cost of secondhand machines, the new bike bound to lose out and I don't see how that fact advances this discussion at all? By all means make that comparison several years down the line when there are secondhand GP450s to work with math with.

I don't think the DRZ400 has been sold in the UK for years.

And once you start bringing the DR650 into the argument you are no longer talking about lightweight, any number of bikes fit into the weight bracket of 30kg over the GP450 weight.

I don't know anything about the WR250, but are you sure that it could stand up to 70-80mph motorway cruising? i know my XR400 was stressed at those speeds.

I said the 690 R has the edge on performance, I wasn't implying anything on the off tarmac ability. In fact I don't know how the 690R and GP450 compare off tarmac.

But I think you are coming from the wrong angle. Yes the KTM 450 EXC would undoubtedly be better off tarmac than either the 690 R or the GP450, but the GP450 isn't meant to be an offroad god, it's supposed to be a lightweight adventure tourer with decent off tarmac ability, something that the 450 EXC would not be good at.

So...
- lightweight
- ability to take full luggage load
- good fuel range
- suitable for long distance trips (service interval)
- able to cruise at the legal limit
- good weather protection
- good lighting
- agile off tarmac

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Yes, it can. I own one and use it extensively for touring. I have added a larger tank, uprated the springs and put on soft panniers. With its 10K service interval, 48K valve adjustment interval and general build quality, I'd dare say it's a very competent adventure touring bike.

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HansP
All you wanted to know
about riding in Norway

That's good then. The service interval is high and it's extremely light at just 118kg including oil and fuel.

But I just checked the price of the WR250 in the UK and it's £7,249 plus registration fees. So once you start making mods for additional fuel or weather protection you're starting to approach the GP450 price.

Nobody seems to have done a big touring trip yet with the GP450 and that will be the test. You'd have thought CCM would have lent one out...

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Illogical? No, not really. Just reality based. Money ALWAYS matters! Anyone shopping for a "new" bike will be looking at both New and Used examples, yes? And in fact, very few end up buying new, most buy used.

Sure, they will look at ALL the bikes on offer ... and a few do choose to buy a brand new bike. But the fact is ... most riders buy a used machine. As many have pointed out ... as nice as the CCM is ...£8000 is a lot for an unproved bike from a company with a spotty history. Is that illogical?

I wasn't aware Suzuki pulled the DRZ from it's UK line up. I see used ones going on HUBB, so assumed it was still around.

Since you brought up the 690 I just tossed out the DR650. BTW, it's the lightest dual sport in the 650 class ...except for the KTM 690.

It also covers ALL the parameters you've laid out ... and then some. Yes, even off road ability. Unless you plan your RTW trip to be entirely made up of World Enduro level single track, then a well prepared DR650 hangs in just fine on 90% of dirt tracks one is likely to ride ... and it's a lot tougher than many other bikes I could name.
Just ask the boys down under.

I've only test ridden one myself.
But many riders claim it's not bad on highway. (would not be my first choice for that specific task ... and it is expensive for a 250, but a very popular bike over all ... and well proven) New for New, about half the price of CCM.

Neither do I. When you said "performance" I assumed both ON and OFF road ... like it said on your list.

I tend to agree here of course ... but unless we've seen someone "trick out" a 450exc fully, we can't really know what could be done.

(BTW, speaking of "wrong angle"? I never mentioned a word about the KTM 450EXC, only listed it as a possible)

But ... the 450exc is a road legal bike and by law, has to be able to carry a passenger, so perhaps the sub frame is strong enough for luggage? Sure, gearing, range, comfort, elec. output and LOTS of the other issues to sort ... but I contend it could be done, but at a fair cost. $$$$ (not worth it IMO)

The Beta 450 or 550 on the other hand is said to be more civilized, perhaps more adaptable to a more tarmac based ADV machine? Have to wait on this one, it's a fairly new model.

Granted ... the CCM sort of have this niche to itself ... for now. Not many as flexible with good attributes for both Dirt, street, touring and travel. But IMO most riders, after doing research, will not buy it and will buy something used and Japanese instead.

I don't think we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

The CCM GP450 is (currently) only available new. So if you are going to usefully compare it to other bikes it makes sense that they are new bikes or at least used bikes of the same value. And there's not much point comparing the GP450 with bikes that aren't available new in the UK, such as the DR650 or DRZ400. Not sure the Beta 450/550 are available either.

The WR250 isn't "new for new about half the price of a GP450", it's £7,249 and then has to have larger tank and fairing to bring it up to GP450 equivalence. BTW, I don't understand your comment, "I've only test ridden one myself" when you said earlier that you had bought an Acerbis tank for your WR250?

The 450EXC doesn't have pillion pegs and is registered as a solo. The perceived wisdom on the KTM forum is that the subframe isn't strong enough for a pillion which gives me concern about the stresses of riding off tarmac with heavy luggage and camping gear.

CCM acknowledges that the 690 R is their main competitor. When I last spoke to the company the young sales lady was claiming she had many 690 owners trading in their bikes against a new GP450. Not sure how much of this was sales talk.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. Most people who are seriously considering buying a GP450 aren't likely to then turn around and buy a ten year old £2,000 Suzuki to do up. I'm not 'knocking' any of the alternative bikes, or the idea of buying inexpensive secondhand bikes, I'm sure they are all pretty good in their niche, but it's a different niche than buying a brand new lightweight adventure touring bike.

What still concerns me though, is Chris's comments about handling. And the lack of any reports of serious trips with luggage.

.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)