I was simply quite happy to see myself in print and get a foot on the bottom rung of the ladder. Even if it is un/low paid, it gets your name known amongst people who have some influence in the business. I'm not a pro, so the way I see it, I can't expect pro's rates. BUT... I can string a sentence together, and so I am hopeful that this opportunity will lead to something else.

This offer from TWO is perfect for someone like me - it gives an opportunity to people who otherwise may not get one - surely encouraging grass roots talent is a positive thing?

Birdy

As Chris1200 pointed out earlier... that is pretty much the crux of it - good for you!

xxx

I'm new to the Hubb and forums in general, and while I've found this thread interesting, it has become a tad unsettling.

People are complaining about and trying to justify what they are worth and I find this self interest somewhat puerile. I buy magazines every week and it is I who decides what you are worth with my wallet. If the buying public doesn't like what they are reading then they stop buying. A good editor/owner will detect the falling sales and a successful editor/owner will react and revise his contributors or content.

I stand by my previous comment that professional writers deserve to be paid well for their labours, but it's a tough business and your work needs to be special if you are going to make a successful living nowadays. Birdy had the right idea, get the exposure that was offered and move forward. Isn't that how most of us started our careers? We were thankful for the opportunities given us, let's not complain when someone is offered the same.
Btw, I love reading your articles Birdy and I'll take any magazine that you are featured in.

Pete

I’m not sure how to make this clear… The reason I ask people to get paid is because otherwise they make it worse for other people to get paid. This again makes good writers quit and the publications get even more boring.
If you think this is “trying justifying what I’m worth” that’s up to you. It might be out of self interest because I want to read good magazines.

Other than that I don’t care if people work for free, but I don’t work unless I get paid.
I would also say if an article is good enough to get printed then it’s good enough to get paid.

In an ideal world, yes..
But because people don’t want to pay much for mags the editors often use cheaper articles and increase the ads. This is also a common trick to make the numbers look better if they plan to sell their business.
Long term planning is not what it used to be and “decreasing cost” is trendier then “increasing quality”.

Yes, you are quite correct. A professional writer who submits a good story deserves to be paid well.
But this offer wasn't aimed at you and shouldn't be dismissed. It was an up front offer open to all. If you wish to submit a story and receive £150 for your effort, then it's a fair deal. If you think it's a rip off, ignore it.
I see your point, the magazines might be seen as trying to control the market and capitalising on cheaper contracts, but isn't that business? Everyone looks to save a few quid now and then. I won't take my bikes to the dealer to get them serviced and when my plumbing packs in, I call Joe from the Co-op. He isn't Corgi registered but he knows his way around my pipes! I can't fault his work and he's never let me down. Any professional plumbers, please join the debate....if my house floods then I'll get in the boat with TWO magazine.
I thought TWO were right, and brave it seems, to offer this opportunity and I wish success to those who are willing to take it.

why brave ? they are risking nothing and investing absolutely zilch. £150 is the petrol expenses on a 300 mile round trip in the UK for anybody on professional business. It's what anybody travelling from London to Manchester and back in their own car would charge. £150 is absolutely bloody nothing, really. And few businesses survive by making no investment in either their staff or materials.

i don't think they are brave- i think they must have a death wish on their own magazine.

I'll happily read the internet blogs and websites to find stories from keen amatuers

If I'm going to part with my 5 quid, it will be because the words are insightful, interesting, new, different and concise. If the photos are awe inspiring, colourful and make you dream long after you have put the magazine down, then they have my money.

But a cobbled together article, produced as an afterthought to a journey , no thanks

Unsure if that is a reference to the travel article from this months TWO. If it is, I apologise that it came out like that. It is very difficult to condense thousands of miles of travel into 2000 words, and manage to tell anything at all, let alone get personal style and flair into it. You can't travel across one country without getting a dozen 2000 word stories, so trying to compress a large number of countries into those precious few words is a tall task.

The problem there is that no magazine is going to serialise a story by a nobody over several issues. It just isn't going to happen if you are not a staffie or a celeb.

The way I see it, TWO are making an investment. They are giving people a chance, and those people may show promise, and remember that TWO gave them that chance. I would love to write something for BIKE, but as they have never even replied to one of my emails, if I have something, I would punt it to TWO. Given that amateurs like myself are cheap - that seems like an investment to me.

I am in the process of mailing various mags to see if there is anyone who will offer me something for my next trip, but there is very little out there. The pictures will be better next time too - I lost almost all of mine last time due to a faulty memory card.

Birdy

Hi Birdy,

No mate, none of my many ramblings on this subject are a criticism of any biker, traveller, rider or whoever, it is aimed fairly and squarely at Professional magazines who don't make investments in their magazines (and it's not the bitter ramblings of a freelance photographer, I've got a staff job)

I had a bit of a trawl around and found the article that inspired me many many years ago. I hope Karim won't mind me linking to his website - trawl down the left hand side and look for "Heinz Adlers Adventure" - interestingly enough it was the inspiration for Karims travels too. It was Bike magazine in the late 80s

Look here.......... Karim's Desert Biking Disasters and Adlers adventure is half way down on the left

Brilliant pictures and a full story. That opening spread says it all. Worn Michelin Desert, rusty spokes, palmed lined beach, tanned skinny body, ruffled hair, battered luggage, old map - it's a posed picture that has had a lot of thought put into it and it has been seared in my memory ever since. Fabulous. Its 8 pages of Bikers Travellers porn - And that story can be sold in France, Australia, Germany, Italy etc etc, The Sunday Times, Airline magazines, blah blah blah. And remember this is film photography in the days before Digital when you weren't exactly sure what you were going to get and the maxim "take a hundred snaps, there should be a good one in there somewhere" didn't exist

Its the difference between amatuer and professional , the difference between paying 5 quid and not paying 5 quid.

And Birdy, back your stuff up . Professional photographers store their photographs in an absolute minimum of 5 different ways - computer, external hard drive, internet, CD, DVD, back up back up back up straightaway, ie that evening after you have taken them at the very latest. And your computer should have Disk recovery software on it which can recover even the deadest of dead Cards

Sorry, I haven't read TWO this month, but I have surfed Horizons, Advrider and others an awful lot

That is indeed a truly awesome photo. It encapsulates the dream. I can fully believe that photo launched a thousand trips. It is just a pity my computer claims the link to the high res copies is broken - I would love to read the text.

How exactly do you go about doing that? As an aspiring freelance, I've had massive trouble even getting a British bike mag editor to reply to an email, let alone read anything I have had to say.

As for the backing up, in a perfect world I would, but I don't have enough packing power to travel with anything other than the camera itself - so I am forced to leave it in the lap of fate. I bought cheap memory, and paid the price later.

Thanks,

Birdy

Unfortunately, it is one of the sh@ite parts of being a freelance, you have to sell yourself and it is no different to door-to-door selling of toilet brushes or selling 4000 tonnes of processed aluminium to the Chinese. It's just persistence, research, getting on the blower, emailing, sending letters, making appointments, turning up unannounced, breaking down doors, not taking NO as an answer, making up a portfolio to show your customer the product, getting University students to translate stories for you and then more of the above, over and over again. There is no set route and thats what makes it either fun or a nightmare, depending on your viewpoint.

Great article in TWO Joel (Birdy). Thoroughly enjoyed it. Maybe you have found a niche angle for yourself - low budget touring on a moped. But even with a niche I suspect it would be difficult to finance your travels solely through the writing. Only a select few seem to achieve that.

And it would appear that I for one will not be joining them. (My post 4 weeks back):
Maybe my blog wasn't considered good enough, maybe I pissed them off by requiring £250 not £150, maybe the blog had been seen by too many people already. Maybe a combination of all three. Maybe they didn't even look at it. I suspect Dick is right about the effort required to begin to earn a living from writing. For the money that appears to be on offer, I for one just can't be asked.

PS It's not your computer Birdy, I too got the "corrupted" message.

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Seek Truth

15 countries in 40 days. Tanks, crashes, minefields and Kalashnikovs

I missed my missus too but I didn't express it with such eloquence. Maybe being able to express insights like this is why he got published and I didn't.

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Seek Truth

15 countries in 40 days. Tanks, crashes, minefields and Kalashnikovs

As expected, there are many who STILL have their heads stuck in the sand on this topic and cannot (for some peculiar reason) understand the basics of what I have said.

Let me put it like this...............
When we plan our bike trips it is because we want to do the trip itself and enjoy or endure the many experiences we have along the way. End of story.

Yet there are those who talk about percentages of what "real" writers get and how they are automatically entitled to x% or y% just because they rode a bike somewhere. Get it into your heads folks.......YOU RODE THE BIKE WHEREVER YOU RODE IT BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO DO IT!! However for those of you who reckoned you were onto a money-spinner...... go and sell your story and your world-beating photos to a publisher. I can tell you now that there will be a long queue of people wanting to sell and not too many people wanting to buy.

If you don't like the offers being made by TWO or similar publishers then don't do it, don't sell your priceless work of art, don't share your unique photos. Keep them at home in a box under the bed, take them out from time to time and revel in your own brilliance, stick two fingers up to the world because you are the "superwriter" they will never have the joy of experiencing. And keep telling yourselves that all of nothing is better than a bit of something. Because some of you are exactly the type of people who would actually believe that!

For those who you who replied to the initial posting by TWO with a degree of common sense......it's a big thumbs up from me because I suspect you are the real adventurers and travellers.

Chris

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"Life is too short to drink cheap wine!"

About time someone wrote without all the whining how they never would submit something for less than (insert amount). For the whiners--Don't submit a story, then, and get on with your life!! (yes, the fact that I have responded to this thread means I need to get going, too!! LOL)

I would never submit anything to a magazine without a guarantee that I would get....



.... a copy of the magazine to put somewhere safe (and them possibly lose).

I know I'm no writer, but I like to share the chances I get in life with others, give a little back maybe, maybe give a little inspiration. So money? Well that's great and £150 would buy me a nice jacket, or new tyres, but it's not why I do it.

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