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**xfiltrate** · #16 4 Jan 2010

Wheeee, it is perfectly legal for a foreign tourist to buy and sell locally (in country) registered vehicles and motorcycles. And thanks for the appreciation of my efforts regarding the sale or purchase of foreign (USA, etc) registered vehicles and motorcycles in South America.

AND, thank you for your query. The fact is that permanent foreign residents of Uruguay are not permitted to import a foreign registered vehicle or motorcycle. Period...

If you would like a very detailed blog in English on the topic of importation of foreign registered vehicles by permanent foreign residents of Uruguay go here:

Immigration: motor vehicles, Uruguay forum

I was truly amazed at the restrictions! Because, foreign permanent residents of Argentina are permitted to pay import tariffs and legally register in Argentina one imported foreign registered vehicle or motorcycle. I cannot explain the "why" of this particular law of Uruguay. Perhaps reading the blog referenced above will help.

Yes, the actual Temporary Vehicle Import Permit (TVIP) law for Uruguay demands 6 month proven ownership by the foreign tourist of any foreign registered vehicle or motorcycle entering Uruguay.

I will point out that if you are riding into Uruguay and not shipping in, the reality is that the minimum ownership factor for securing a TVIP is not something that normally deters the issuance of the TVIP for Uruguay, but it is the law, and could be a legal problem in the event of an accident.

I have not researched this particular aspect of the TVIP for other South American countries, as my plate is rather full researching the sell/buy aspect of TVIPs as related to foreign registered (USA, etc) vehicles and motorcycles.

Hope this helps

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

**BCK_973** · #17 5 Jan 2010

Eduardou
I think every one is free to post any helping coment in this forum.So i will say this only once to you,nobody except Grant or a moderator can say "What you have suggested cannot be done legally, so please stop suggesting it. Thank you!" to me.
If you like to play police here.....

Lets get back to the subject Vlad asked before,as said that crossing happens very often and is a solution that works for the travellers.Your very long answers are too exhausting and confuses more then helping out.
As more burocracy,more gray areas exists.
Please respect my freedom of speach as i respect yours.
Karl

**xfiltrate** · #18 5 Jan 2010

I have asked you not to recommend illegally/fraudulently altering motorcycle titles, and I have asked you "where" the title transfer takes place? The TVIP law for Argentina and Uruguay clearly states that a title transfer as described is prohibited in Argentina and Uruguay.

I also asked that you read the actual laws posted on another thread.

BCK_973 I respect your freedom of speech as I do my own, I am asking you to speak more not less, and to answer my questions.

And no you cannot advise others to commit the crime of illegally/fraudulently altering legal documents, no matter if those documents are issued in the USA, Argentina or Uruguay - no matter if others do it and get away with it.

I hope you do not feel that illegally/fraudulently altering legal documents is part of your expression of free speech, for that would have to be your belief in order to accuse me of limiting your free speech..

If you prefer, it will be my pleasure to communicate with you in Spanish.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

**BCK_973** · #19 7 Jan 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by xfiltrate

BCK_973 I have asked you not to recommend illegally/fraudulently altering motorcycle titles, and I have asked you "where" the title transfer takes place? The TVIP law for Argentina and Uruguay clearly states that a title transfer as described is prohibited in Argentina and Uruguay.

I also asked that you read the actual laws posted on another thread.

BCK_973 I respect your freedom of speech as I do my own, I am asking you to speak more not less, and to answer my questions.

And no you cannot advise others to commit the crime of illegally/fraudulently altering legal documents, no matter if those documents are issued in the USA, Argentina or Uruguay - no matter if others do it and get away with it.

I hope you do not feel that illegally/fraudulently altering legal documents is part of your expression of free speech, for that would have to be your belief in order to accuse me of limiting your free speech..

If you prefer, it will be my pleasure to communicate with you in Spanish.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

www.Xfiltrate.com - Professional Motorcycle Parking - Professional Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina

Eduardou
Thanks for the spanish offer,but no need for it at all.I don´t know how good/bad your castellano is eather.
But back to the topic started here,please reread my post here very carefully,as i have never suggested to ALTER or DOCTOR any document.So please dont use that violent words against me any more!
Again,you are maybe making an interpretation of our argentinian law that is not the propper one?
For instance,for entering a bike by road on any border they will ask:
Title,passport. If the title is not on the riders name just a notary authorization.
That is so far at the AFIP site!
http://www.afip.gov.ar/genericos/gui...aspx?id=474249
Now not happy with this basic information i called AFIP/aduanas.
Talked for long with a leading person with importation matters.
Usually,he claimed,entering by sea or airport the documentation needed is much more precise because an agent is acting.On border crossings he said reallity is very different.Called it relaxed.
Also important to know is that the law requiers to take your vehicle with you EVERY time you exit the country!For exceptions you need to go to AFIP and request for a special permit.
http://www.afip.gov.ar/genericos/gui...aspx?id=487488
Now if you point fraud and illegality against me,when you sell storage do you do all by the book?
Are you registered in AFIP for running legally your bussines?CUIT?or CUIL?
Do you have also INSCRIPCION EN INGRESOS BRUTOS in CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES?
I request this information here to be verified.
Congrats on your SUPERMODERATOR status,i am just a happy biker hey

And yes,iam answering your questions....also if i like to.

Every time the "uruguayan crossing" is done propperly no illegal or fraudulent act is done for agentinian/uruguayan customs.
Other way why do they stamp and fill the temporary import permit??

Karl aka BCK_973

**xfiltrate** · #20 7 Jan 2010

BCK_973 I am pleased to respond you your last post, but you have neglected to answer the question I asked in post #13, this thread. Let us continue our communication by answering each other, and then asking another question. OK?

Here is the question I asked you in post #13

"OK, no sales of foreign registered vehicles in either Uruguay or Argentina, so where exactly does the seller sell his TVIP registered motorcycle?"

To review:

Vlad: post #1

"I am an american citizen in Argentina looking to buy a bike here. Would like some info about how to buy and register a US registered bike from other travelers."

TravelingStrom: post #4

Hi Vlad, I am currently heading your way and would like to sell my bike in BA, sometime in late Jan early Feb
It is a California registered bike and I have the title and papers with me. But, I will be heading back to the states after so paperwork should be no issue.
If you are interested in a DL650 Vstrom, 2007 with some gear on it, let me know.

Cheers
TravellingStrom

BTK_973: post #12

Hi Vlad
"Yes its posible,for instance if you buy trvelling Storms bike,cross both into uruguay(he rides it out),drive back next day(you riding this time the bike) into argentina and get a new set of temporary import papers on your name!In the meantime do new ownership papers in the us and get them send by post to you.
Done to many times and worked 100%.With sit import ride in and out as many times you like,renewing it each time of course."

Xfiltrate: post #13 to BCk_973

"OK, no sales of foreign registered vehicles in either Uruguay or Argentina, so where exactly does the seller sell his TVIP registered motorcycle?"

You have decided not to answer this question, so please do so, and then, I will answer all of your questions.

And in your answer please explain how Vlad and TravelingStrom will be able to legally meet the California transfer of title regulations found here:

California Department of Motor Vehicles

How to Change Vehicle Ownership

Without violating the (TVIP) Declaracion Jurada Admison Temporaria Vechiclulos de Turistas (Ley 22415 - art 970) COMPROMISO DE RETORNO issued by both Argentina and Uruguay, under a Mercosur agreement?

When I wrote the following to you it was after very careful study of California title transfer regulations and a very careful study of the laws of both Argentina and Uruguay prohibiting the sale of a foreign registered (California) motorcycle, by a foreign tourist who has entered the motorcyle into either Argentina or Uruguay.

My accurate conclusion is that the presentation of title of TraveingStrom's" California registered motorcycle, by Vlad for the purpose of securing a (TVIP) to enter either Uruguay or Argentina (he must be legal owner) would be in violation of both California title transfer regulations and of the laws of both Argentina and Uruguay, as stated in writing under "Compromiso de Retorno" as referenced or written every South American TVIP. Because TravelingStrom would still be the legal owner of the motorcycle that Vald would present via an illegally/fraudulently altered document.

Of course Vlad could be an authorized rider of TravelingStrom's motorcyle, but that would not constitute a title transfer or sale of the motorcycle, and Travelingstrom would remain the legal owner. This was not the issue. Vlad specifically asked about "buying" a US registered bike in Argentina, and you confirmed that you understood his request post #12.

Bck_973 do you realized what you have suggested on this thread could be interpreted by a court of law in Argentina as conspiracy to commit fraud.

Good that you spoke with AFIP and AFIP/Aduana, unfortunately the questions you asked and the answers you received and the AFIP regulations you posted had nothing to do with the question of buying a US (California) registered motorcycle in Argentina. You seemed much more intent on attacking me.

Not so long ago....the (TVIP) for Uruguay has replaced the "Carnet de Passages en Douane"

The intent of the TVIP and the "carnet" are the same, to prevent the sale of foreign registered vehicles/motorcycles in South America without the payment of Import tariffs and the registration of the vehicle/motorcycle in country.

Here is something you may not know:

Grant and Susan Johnson and the HUBB played an important role in the replacement of the "carnet" by the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit in the last country of South America to require a "carnet." Based on their efforts the President of Ecuador replaced the "carnet" with the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. This act indicated that the country of Ecuador "trusted" those being issued Temporary Vehicle Import Permits would not sell their vehicle or motorcycle in Ecuador. It is a "trust" that we of the HUBB take very seriously.

So, let us live up to the trust instilled in us by the President of Ecuador and let us live up to the trust instilled in us by every other South American country that issues Temporary Vehicle Import Permits. Let us abide by the regulations of the Temporary Vehicle Import Permits of South America by NOT selling our foreign registered vehicles or motorcycles illegally in any South American country that issues Temporary Vehicle Import Permits, and they all do.

Please read again carefully

Xfiltrate: post #18

"I have asked you not to recommend illegally/fraudulently altering motorcycle titles, and I have asked you "where" the title transfer takes place? The TVIP law for Argentina and Uruguay clearly states that a title transfer as described is prohibited in Argentina and Uruguay."

"And no you cannot advise others to commit the crime of illegally/fraudulently altering legal documents, no matter if those documents are issued in the USA, Argentina or Uruguay - no matter if others do it and get away with it."

"I hope you do not feel that illegally/fraudulently altering legal documents is part of your expression of free speech, for that would have to be your belief in order to accuse me of limiting your free speech."

And, a final note to TravelingStrom,

One alternative to selling your bike comes to mind. Based on my research, you might (I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE) be able to legally add a co-owner to your California title, who might be able to legally insure and ride your bike. The down side of this possibility is that you will remain responsible for any damages resulting from an accident in which a court ruling determines your co owner was at fault. I have not finished my research regarding the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit and the legality of adding a co owner. If you decide to go this route, private message me and I will explain in greater detail what I have discovered to date.

And a note to Vlad: Please advise if you are a permanent foreign resident of Argentina or a foreign tourist? Only if you are a permanent foreign resident of Argentina do you have the right to legally pay import tariffs and register in Argentina one foreign registered vehicle or motorcycle. Of course you would have to be the legal owner of the vehicle or motorcycle. Foreign tourists are not permitted to register a foreign registered vehicle or motorcycle in Argentina.

In the final analysis each must find their own way, and know that none of the above pertains to foreign tourists who decide to buy and sell Argentine registered motorcycles in Argentina, this is legal.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

**TravellingStrom** · #21 7 Jan 2010

Xfiltrate, I have previously not bothered to answer any of your posts because they are long winded and too confusing by far and I do not have the time on the road to try and interpret what you are trying to say.

Let me tell you straight. I as an Aussie bought the Californian bike and DID NOT have to present the bike in any way to any DMV. I only had to provide the TITLE and a residential address and pay the sales tax and transfer costs.

Just because it is done outside the country is only an issue with the actual names and addresses on the documents. I am not knowledgeable in that area, but others are.

So, please stop hijacking other peoples threads with you own agenda

Cheers
TravellingStrom

**Zigeuner53** · #22 7 Jan 2010

we enjoyed the chances to make our own way into and out of whatever country we could, by any means we chose....now have we lost the right to go our own way ?
I don't think so.
Any tips, ideas, work-arounds, subterfuges, etc that are posted on the HUBB are are just that and can't we just leave it that way ? Or do we need to policed even in our thoughts.
Please everyone post your experiences, all of them, I think we are all mature enough to take care for ourselves.

Resistance is useless, ride !

Zig

**xfiltrate** · #23 7 Jan 2010

BCK_973, Zigeuner53,and TravellingStrom, yes, as I have stated on other threads, California is the only one of the few States with very easy title transfer requirements that the buyer does exactly as you described, but the DMVs of other States in the United States have very different requirements.
Along with what you have stated, California has imposed time limits between the actual sale of a vehicle/motorcycle and the DMVs acceptance of documents, taxes, fees etc.

My only agenda here is to do exactly as you suggest and post my experiences/research so that others can find their own way, based on a balance of the experiences of others. The laws themselves, upon which I base my posts, are sometimes confusing, and more confusing for those who do not understand Spanish.

I would be the very first to endorse anyone, especially BCK_973 who presents here any legal process, according to the regulations of the State issuing title to the bike and the Argentine issued TVIP, that would enable a foreign tourist, to sell a bike registered in any one of the 50 States, to another foreign tourist while the bike and they are both in Argentina. Without having to pay Argentina's stated import tariffs and then have the bike registered in Argentina, before a legal sale could be effected.

I wonder why he has not done so thus far?

Perhaps BCT_973 has found a way, I am pushing hard here for the details, so I can include this in my own experiences that I would be more than willing to share with others.

Matter of fact, I would welcome such a process and I would happily pass the process on to others. My only agenda is to present my own experiences, together with my research into DMV (USA) and Argentine law.

Why would my experiences be any more of a hijack, than anyone else posting their experiences here? Perhaps because my experiences do not forward your agenda?

Unless new information is posted regarding the topic of this thread, other than a little follow up, I have shared what I know to be true from my own experiences. Everyone here has the right to do the same, but if there is a legal downside to those experiences, that too should be posted.

For example, the effect a foreign title transfer in a South American country might have on the willingness/legality of a company insuring the titled transferred bike in the event the company would be required to pay heavy damages. I have explained this particular downside in great detail on another thread. This is an example of what I mean by a legal downside. Is it a hi jack to share this, or an attempt to make the journey safer?

Eat, Drink and be Careful xfiltrate

**Grant Johnson** · #24 7 Jan 2010

While we would never knowingly ADVISE anyone to do ANYTHING illegal, sometimes we have to do whatever it takes to survive in this world of often silly regulations.

Transferring a California for instance bike from one Californian to another while physically in another country doesn't seem to be a problem to me, even if you have to leave the country you happen to be in and then re-enter with someone else riding it for instance, doesn't see to me to be "wrong" but merely trying to deal with the regulations in a way that works for all.

Now if that makes sense then you get it!

**chris** · #25 7 Jan 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCK_973

.....Congrats on your SUPERMODERATOR status......

Hi BCK_973
The person you refer to is NOT a moderator on the HUBB.
cheers
Chris

**xfiltrate** · #26 7 Jan 2010

Thanks Grant and Chris, I have expressed my point of view on this topic and am very thankful that you both have joined the thread.

Thankful to Grant for sharing his opinion that resolves any obligations on my part to continue, and thankful to Chris for relieving me of any responsibility as a mod, actually i don't know how that works, but I am very pleased the way it worked out.

Yes, we are all just trying to survive and help others survive to the best of our abilities, of this I am certain.

Looking forward to responding to another topic on another thread very soon. This has been a challenging ride -

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

**BCK_973** · #27 7 Jan 2010

Grant,good you visit southamerica just for a little while...

Again to let this VERY clear.

I have never point,nor suggest any illegal or fraudulent activity here.

What Eduard does not understand is that the actual change of ownership does not happen in Argentina.One biker goes out with legit papers,other biker comes in with legit papers.OTHER WAY they would never get a import at all!!!!!!
He believes that they need to register in the argentine system(that is not alloud by law,only very exceptional cases can)pay all taxes etc.....and then sell again?????he doesn´t get it I suppose.
Like the rest said just find that area where they can keep riding this beautyfull continent!

Chris
Was he moderator ever? He told me a couple of times his "super" color

So,now we are back to easy mode i will go back to our "HU BUNKER" in BA and have suspension oil changed on Javiers shop....(oil sponsored by Ken&Carol Duval)

PS: Grant what do we have to organize to get you back here in Argentina???
Special 2012 meeting???(will send PM)
Karl

**chris** · #28 7 Jan 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCK_973

Chris
Was he moderator ever? He told me a couple of times his "super" color

Hi Karl
Don't believe so. I think there might have been a misunderstanding regarding colours of user names. Grant struggles with colouring in... You should have read what his art teacher thought of his school "painting by numbers" project

. It seems that this issue has now been rectified.

Hang loose
Chris

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