Tony LEE , I have lived in Argentina for almost a decade I am and probably always will be a citizen of the United States of America. I am a property owner in the States and return each two years or so to look after my properties. I posted CATO Institute "research" because with each visit home (Arizona) I have personally experienced "shakedowns" by police that make the rank amateur police gang operating on that Ruta , whom I have also experienced first hand, look like Boy Scouts....

Are you in the USA? Have you been there long? Come on my friend do you not realize that the very isolated Ruta police corruption is like a candle in the wind when compared to the police state that is now the USA?

The stats I have provided are simply to give some comparable data with which to evaluate this thread.

I do welcome your comments , and would be pleased to learn your response to this post.

xfiltrate

My point was that while it is valid to compare like incidents between countries to give some measure of relativity, the type of incident portrayed in the 'research" bears no relationship whatsoever to those related in this thread - so I would ask again, what was the point of posting it. It is NOT relevant. You might just as well have posted statistics on the divorce rate in the USA or the number of postmen bitten by poodles. The police state that, according to some, exists in the USA does so simply because the democratically-elected government (on all levels) is apparently convinced that the majority of its citizens want it that way. Also hardly a topic relevant to the aims of HUBB forum though but you raised it, not me.

As for where and when I drive. So far about 12 months continuous driving in the US in 4-month blocks - most of it being on back roads and small towns and not on the interstates - plus three months in Mexico - also mostly not on toll roads - plus three months in Morocco and a lot of time and huge number of miles in 20 other countries and we have never, NEVER, come across any examples of improper conduct by police or other officials trying to make some money on the side out of fake driving offences. If it happens in Argentina, it will be the first time - and if it involves me being caught for a genuine traffic infringement, as happened in Morocco when I rolled through a stop sign, then I will pay the full fine in the correct manner and at the correct venue - but if it involves just an obvious shakedown, then there is no way they will get any pocket money out of me. Partly a matter of principle, but also because I don't want to visit the same situation on the next traveller to pass that way.

__________________
Tony
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Tony Lee, thanks for your post. I was off target and off topic. I am pleased to learn you have not experienced any corruption while traveling.

No matter, contrary to your statement the NDAA legislation, Homeland Security poll numbers and approval ratings for the US Congress fall well, well below a majority, you are right, this is another discussion.

I hope this is an appropriate question.

Assuming international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example, traveling in Argentina and in the States make up equal groups of law abiding people, why is it that the potential/possibility to be arrested and put in jail is much, much greater in the States than in Argentina by about 5 times ?

Matter of fact, counting repeat arrests, as amazing as it seems....about one in six males in the United States 20-30 years old will be arrested at one time or another. The stats for females are lower. The USA has the highest % of people in jail per capita in the world, 750 prisoners per hundred thousand while Argentina has 147 prisoners per hundred thousand (2011).

What could be going on?

Thanks for the even handed way you brought me back to topic.

xfiltrate

Indeed.

I guess you'll have to post a citation for that dubious claim. Presumably you realize that just because incarceration rates in the US are much higher than in Argentina that does not mean that "international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example" are five times more likely to be arrested in the US than in Argentina?

I've been unable to find any support for your quoted figure, so once again please provide a citation.

Don't make it so easy. While xfiltrate loves to play fast and loose, shifting stats and random assertions so that he never has to admit fault, it is true (and easily verified) that my country arrests and incarcerates a much higher proportion of its population than most, maybe all, others. More startling than the assertions above, have a look at this journal article: Cumulative Prevalence of Arrest From Ages 8 to 23 in a National Sample .

What relevance has this for overlanders? Little or none, of course....except that when complaining bitterly about the corruption we encounter in the Developing World, it's good to maintain some perspective on law enforcement practices in our home countries.

Mark

First, without seeing more info than is available in the abstract, it is difficult to draw many conclusions from the cited article. It relies upon self-reported data from an unidentified set of subjects, and moreover relates to being arrested or "taken into custody". Does that include a stern talking to by a school security guard? Since the age group begins at 8 (yes, 8), I would expect so.

Second, the incarceration rate in the US is obviously off the charts but is due not do corruption--the topic of this thread--but rather to the criminalization of so many offenses in the US, which has reached ludicrous proportions. Any number of press reports describe people facing jail time for not only trivial drug offenses but offenses such as importing rare orchids, lobsters, hardwoods, etc. which were legally exported from their source countries. That's a whole different topic, but not relevant to this thread.

Yup, I agree: off topic. But that particular assertion (one in six) is easy to research and you'll find it well-supported. If xfiltrate's assertion is off topic, so are you (and I). So who's complaining about whom?

As for the Pediatrics article, also off-topic, that's a respected, peer-reviewed journal supported by a major professional organization. If not inclined to purchase a subscription, you've merely got to decide whether you're more interested in finding fault (tempting, I'll admit, and not difficult) or addressing the central point. And before you get too carried away with your own sarcasm ("school security guard"), you might want to look into procedures for arresting juveniles, since juveniles are often arrested here.

Mark

In general, if you are a member of an equal group of law abiding HUBBERS traveling in USA and in Argentina you would be more likely to be arrested in the USA than in Argentina.

Corruption is the topic here, a topic I am not addressing at presence, but would suggest a bend toward that direction.

I am just comparing equal groups of HUBBERS traveling in two different countries and questioning the potential of a random group member to be arrested. A simple concept.

If, per capita arrests are three, four, five times higher (whichever) in the USA than in Argentina ,when comparing "equal groups of Hubbers" traveling in USA and in Argentina, it is logical that each member of the "equal groups of HUBBERS" would indeed be more likely to be arrested in the USA.

Here I am only comparing HUBBERS traveling in the USA with other HUBBERS traveling in Argentina, not with the population in general.

Let's move to the HUB PUB to continue this line of "reasoning" lest we really get wobbly.

xfiltrate

My thoughts regarding the existence of bad, corrupt
police that not only instigate crime but commit crimes
themselves mirror my thoughts regarding
humanity in general.

Now, in order to understand the police one must
understand the main function of the police, which is
to prevent or stop things from happening. .
Therefore, after a while as a police officer who is
repetitively preventing or stopping things, surrounded
by other police officers who are stopping things too,
he or she if not already having been selected by the
police application procedures as a stopper, becomes a
stopper.

Society needs, as part of its control responsibily,
stoppers.

I have successfully avoided several speeding tickets
by simply sitting in the car, or on my bike, with bowed head and
saying to the police officer now standing beside me...,
"we really need to stop speeders, don't we"
Immediately their was such affinity and apparent
sharing of reality the officer would not or could
not give me a ticket. I have passed this on to many
others and all who have tried it, have confirmed my
results.

Unfortunately, some police, (cultures designated
stoppers) have also been involved in situations where
their very life depended on their ability of stopping
something from happening. This confirms the fact to
them that their very life depends on their ability to
stop things.

I believe, and this is validated by actual statistics
of police corruption, much goes unreported, that
between 5 and 6% of US police are corrupt and
committing crimes against society. This group of bad
police contaminate and recruit from the other 15% or
so of the police who do not fall into the 80% I
believe are good people doing a tough job to the best
of their ability.

Unfortunately, the best "stoppers" are the ones who
get promoted and assume the leadership over large
groups of other police. Now remember, police in
general are not starters nor changers, just look at
the stats on any activity started and run by police
like Project DARE which has, by carefully weighted
scientific statistics created more drug use than what
would have been expected if the program did not exist.
This is fact. Or the comical failures of almost every
police run community event, they can't even have their
own athletic leagues or police balls (social events)
picnics etc...because they are all trying to stop
these things from happening. I am not inventing this,
several reputable books have been written on this very
topic.

I am not sure we can even expect our police to be the
innovative starters and changers of societal behavior,
but if there is anything, even things beneficial
starting or even beneficial changings occuring in a
community you can expect the police to be right on
the scene to stop it. The court systems also operate as stoppers of behavior, not starters of good behavior nor changers of society for the better.

So to directly answer your question for both North
America and South America I believe about 5% of the police
are corrupt and committing crimes against society and
that about 15% are in some way involved by the crime
of omission (not reporting the bad police) or minimal
participation in the commission of crimes against
society, and 80% are good men and woman trying to do
what is right.

One might say 80% really want to help others survive.

I am, in the final analysis a starter of projects and
a changer and yes, if I have to I can stop things too,
so by nature I have very little in common with the
police, and represent a threat to them once they get
to know me.

This might be a good time to point out that I do agree
that every culture needs stoppers, This is an
unfortunate reality that has been created by a
relatively few really bad people. And, look what
happened to Senator Robert Kennedy because, as United
States Attorney General, he was prosecuting the
mafia/police connections in various cities throughout
North America. There is a wealth of documentation
about this existing corrupt connection available, I
have no need to be creative here.

Their main function is to catch those who have already broken the law and 'bring them to justice". Their mere presence might serve as a minor deterrent to those within sight, but does nothing at all for those out of view.

It is that bringing to justice, with its legally-sanctioned repercussions that is supposed to serve as a deterrent so that more-or-less law abiding citizens aren't tempted to break the law.

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

That is incorrect, in my experience. If you use the term "detained" instead of arrested, Argentina has it hands down (or "hands up" as it were).

Detained pending payment of bribes is what's I'm referring to and I think you know that's is true.

Look, I am tired of the ignorance ... of those who buy the lies and the propaganda.... Please understand that you can purchase stock in the USA prison system (it is listed on the stock exchange as real estate) and justice has very little or nothing to do with keeping the jails at capacity. The Feds keep funding the war on drugs to keep the jails full, not to inhibit those who break the law and bring them to justice.... WAKE UP... The US government and the banks '''' Bank of America , Citibank etc. could not make it if they were not laundering drug money, and the fines they pay for violating the law are less than a slap on the wrist... No bankers go to prison. The fines for laundering drug money is considered part of the cost of doing business.

Just look at the DARE program every statistic indicates that drug use increases whereever the DARE program has been implemented. WITHOUT EXCEPTION look at Mexico, Gusman ... head of the Sinaloa cartel escaped jail... no one knows how - right and the Mexican police only arrest the Zetas - who were originally trained by the United States special forces , but decided to create their own drug cartel.

The reason the murder rate in Chicago is through the roof is because the Mexican drug cartels are killing off the American drug cartels competition. Wake up and do a little research PLEASE,,,,

Look up"Fast and Furious" and then get real PLEASE.
Please do a little independent research and wake up.....

The USA has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prison population figure that out for yourself.

Thank you xfiltrate

Conspiracy theorists and their theories abound.

Errrr, what was the original topic. Oh yes, I remember.

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

1. CXW stock quote - Corrections Corporation of America stock price - NASDAQ.com

Corrections Corporation of America Stock Quote & Summary Data
CXW $33.43* 0.04 0.12%
*Delayed - data as of Jul. 26, 2013
Exchange: NYSE
Industry: Consumer Services
Community Rating: Bullish
Read more: CXW stock quote - Corrections Corporation of America stock price - NASDAQ.com

2. Just Say No to DARE - TIME

TIME MAGAZINE: Here�s a news flash: "Just Say No" is not an effective anti-drug message. And neither are Barney-style self-esteem mantras.
While most Americans won�t be stunned by these revelations, they�ve apparently taken a few DARE officials by surprise. According to the New York Times, after years of ignoring stubbornly low success rates, coordinators of the 18-year-old Drug Abuse Resistance Education program are finally coming around to the news that their plan to keep kids off drugs just isn�t working. That means a whole new DARE program — one which critics hope will sidestep existing pitfalls.

Read more: Just Say No to DARE - TIME

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas

The origins of Los Zetas date back to 1999, when commandos of the Mexican Army's elite forces deserted their ranks and decided to work as the armed wing of the Gulf Cartel, a powerful drug trafficking organization.[9]

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzmán_Loera

The police say Guzmán carefully masterminded his escape plan, wielding influence over almost everyone in the prison, including the facility's director.

5. Mexican drug cartels fight turf battles in Chicago - CBS News

Daily turf battles over drugs and distribution, he said, are turning parts of this Midwest city (Chicago) into a Mexican border town.

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rceration_rate

While Americans represent about 5 percent of the world's population, nearly one-quarter of the entire world's inmates have been incarcerated in the United States in recent years.[3] Imprisonment of America's 2.3 million prisoners, costing $24,000 per inmate per year, and $5.1 billion in new prison construction, consumes $60.3 billion in budget expenditures.

7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

Fast and Furious

8. Original topic was police corruption on Ruta 14, Argentina . My point of view is that to understand something it is necessary to compare it against something of comparable or near comparable magnitude. I live in Argentina and I feel Argentina has been given a bad rap when it comes to police corruption. My goal here is to give the readers a different - my point of view regarding police misadventures on Ruta 14.

xfiltrate

I forgot about the banks start here:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-joke-20121213

http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtou...ring-problems/

http://www.policymic.com/articles/10...cording-to-fbi

As far as the role of governments selectively prosecuting drug cartels - you are on your own, if you need references post request here.

Not sure if anyone cares but we went through this 'trouble area' from Buenos Aires to Puerto Iguazu on Ruta 12 and 14 on 16th-19th September 2013 and it was smooth sailing. Were waived through all the check points. Not sure if we were just lucky or if the police are growing tired of this game, one can only hope.

__________________
Boy and Girl. RTW. 2 Suzuki DRZ 400s. http://handfulofthrottle.blogspot.com