Help to get out of Argentina

[kingkurt]

Hi everyone

I am in a bit of a pickle

I recently bought a 4wd off a Spanish guy in Argentina

I have a notorized bill of sale and the vehicle is Polish registered

I was told by the seller that everything would be fine to leave Argentina by just handing in the temporary import paper (it is still in date)

But I am now being told by other travellers and people who have had recent experience with border crossings that this is not allowed and in one instance a guy got his vehicle taken away. Apparantely Argentina is the worse place in South America to transfer vehicle titles

Can anyone tell me for sure if its ok for me to leave Argentina with my vehicle using the temporary import paper that is still in the sellers name?

I really dont want to have to sneak out or Argentina on a Balsa ferry

Cheers

Kurtis

[Peter Bodtke]

Cleland,

You have a real mean streak running though you. I nearly peed myself laughing as I read your reply/advice.

[Tony LEE]

yes, I was told the same thing - But I insisted the seller sign a Power of Attorney giving me permission to drive it anywhere.

We went to one of the most isolated border crossings run by the army and first tried the "just hand over the TIP and they won't even glance at it" trick.

Well bullshit!!!!! Soldier had my passport in one hand and the TIP in the other. Took him all of a microsecond to see that the names didn't match. Uh oh, lots of whispers and consultations out the back and no sign of the boom gate opening.

The "yo no habla Espanol" didn't work either even though the whole station didn't have a word of English between them - well except for the nice border mutt who greeted us with a polite "woof" and I understood that OK.

The nice young soldier persisted until in a flash of brilliance he made me understand "Permissione" while miming reading a bit of paper. So in great surprise I rushed out and got our paperwork folder, rummaged through it and triumphantly produced a very official Poder signed sealed and delivered 7 monthe earlier in Nuenos Aires at a cost of 850 Peso.

Smiles and nods all around and the top brass came out a clucked excitedly and read every word and after being there for about 90 minutes, I asked "problemo?" "No, no no. No problemo" they chorussed
So they all went back inside and laboriously processed the paperwork and wrote it all in their huge journals and then they all came outside for the boom-gate raising ceremony. I got the impression that they didn't get many visitors, and we were definitely the first for the day

Phew!!!

Without that Poder I would have had to shoot my way into Chile and they had the guns and quite a few miles to catch up with me.


As always - your experiences might vary.

BTW I had only paid for half with the balance payable once I was safely into the next country. Also the previous owner kindly arranged for the proper transfer of registration and other paperwork back in the UK so once over the border I was legal without the Poder and was always insured properly. Just that little detail may not be possible with vehicles registered in some countries and bought by non-citizens.

Another problem can arise where the vehicle has crossed several borders and previous Argentinian TIPs have been handed in but not processed off the system, so comes the time when an official with nothing to do goes to the trouble of searching by VIN or license plate as you try to cross and comes up with more than the current live TIP.

[kingkurt]

Originally Posted by Tony LEE

yes, I was told the same thing - But I insisted the seller sign a Power of Attorney giving me permission to drive it anywhere.

We went to one of the most isolated border crossings run by the army and first tried the "just hand over the TIP and they won't even glance at it" trick.

Well bullshit!!!!! Soldier had my passport in one hand and the TIP in the other. Took him all of a microsecond to see that the names didn't match. Uh oh, lots of whispers and consultations out the back and no sign of the boom gate opening.

The "yo no habla Espanol" didn't work either even though the whole station didn't have a word of English between them - well except for the nice border mutt who greeted us with a polite "woof" and I understood that OK.

The nice young soldier persisted until in a flash of brilliance he made me understand "Permissione" while miming reading a bit of paper. So in great surprise I rushed out and got our paperwork folder, rummaged through it and triumphantly produced a very official Poder signed sealed and delivered 7 monthe earlier in Nuenos Aires at a cost of 850 Peso.

Smiles and nods all around and the top brass came out a clucked excitedly and read every word and after being there for about 90 minutes, I asked "problemo?" "No, no no. No problemo" they chorussed
So they all went back inside and laboriously processed the paperwork and wrote it all in their huge journals and then they all came outside for the boom-gate raising ceremony. I got the impression that they didn't get many visitors, and we were definitely the first for the day

Phew!!!

Without that Poder I would have had to shoot my way into Chile and they had the guns and quite a few miles to catch up with me.


As always - your experiences might vary.

BTW I had only paid for half with the balance payable once I was safely into the next country. Also the previous owner kindly arranged for the proper transfer of registration and other paperwork back in the UK so once over the border I was legal without the Poder and was always insured properly. Just that little detail may not be possible with vehicles registered in some countries and bought by non-citizens.

Another problem can arise where the vehicle has crossed several borders and previous Argentinian TIPs have been handed in but not processed off the system, so comes the time when an official with nothing to do goes to the trouble of searching by VIN or license plate as you try to cross and comes up with more than the current live TIP.

Hi Tony and thank you very much for the help and advise

Could you tell me some more about how you got the PODER? I am in Buenos Aries now working on the truck so could look into that as a possible option. I have tried some searching online but have a terrible wifi signal here

Your help is very much appreciated

cheers

[Tony LEE]

I'm in BA too - just sorting out the gear and the vehicle after it being sitting for 7 months.

Poder is a permission by the previous owner in whose name the TIP and vehicle title is, giving you permission to drive it. It is signed by the previous owner (whose bona fides were checked by the "lawyer"), not signed by you, and identifies the vehicle by type, registration and VIN as shown on the paperwork issued back in the licensing country and identifies you by name and passport number. Also gives any restrictions on allowable use.
It may work and then again, it may not.

Now, this is not to imply that you can't rock up to the border post, get your passport stamped out (make sure they DO stamp it. Another story), front the next counter of the Aduana, hand over the old TIP and he sometimes DOES just shove it under the counter and wave you through (which will likely result in an uncancelled TIP that will show up later). Has happened to me twice at very busy border posts down south. He may also accept the bill of sale plus original papers.
HOWEVER, how do you get into the next country? You may have no acceptable proof that you do own the vehicle unless they do accept the bill of sale, which they might, in conjunction with the original paperwork. Insurance might also be a problem since they like all the paperwork to match up.

Lots of mights and maybes, but you did raise your concerns so ...

Obviously the idea is to cut off any international trade in stolen vehicles.

Maybe we are alarming you unnecessarily because obviously a lot of the vehicle sales down here are not even done with proper bills of sale and I guess they manage to travel around OK. Same with transfers in Uruguay. I know of vehicles that have sat there beyond the 12 months yet then see the new owner driving around down south so obviously there are plenty of holes to get through. A lot of the vehicles aren't worth a great amount so losing it may not be a problem, but some of them are multi-tens of thousands of dollars so walking away is not a nice option Xfiltrate - a long-time member here has been a strong advocate of caution when it comes to buying and selling vehicles and he plainly says it is illegal unless some fairly complex and expensive legalities are completed. Obviously he is correct, but in the real world things sometimes fall through cracks so buying and selling goes on with a high chance of success.

Recent reports claim that two vehicles have been confiscated at two different Argentina border crossings within a couple of months of each other so if they are true - and every reason to believe them - a successful sale is not a given.

Purely as an aside, A couple of my RVs are owned by a Montana Limited Liability Company - which allows me to easily own vehicles in the US, but when we take them over a border, we also need a Power of Attorney whereby the directors of the company - namely me, give the driver - namely me, permission to take the vehicle over the border. To back that up, I need the LLC documentation and personal documentation.
Mexico Aduana insisted on the Poder and I had one printed up with all the relevant details but without having had it notarised in the US, but that was good enough. For down here, I did get the document properly notarised in the USA but shouldn't need it because I changed the name of the LLC to be the same as our jount names so the title and registration have our names on them with just the "LLC" on the end being a bit of a clue. We'll see.

[kingkurt]

Originally Posted by Tony LEE

I'm in BA too - just sorting out the gear and the vehicle after it being sitting for 7 months.

Poder is a permission by the previous owner in whose name the TIP and vehicle title is, giving you permission to drive it. It is signed by the previous owner (whose bona fides were checked by the "lawyer"), not signed by you, and identifies the vehicle by type, registration and VIN as shown on the paperwork issued back in the licensing country and identifies you by name and passport number. Also gives any restrictions on allowable use.
It may work and then again, it may not.

Now, this is not to imply that you can't rock up to the border post, get your passport stamped out (make sure they DO stamp it. Another story), front the next counter of the Aduana, hand over the old TIP and he sometimes DOES just shove it under the counter and wave you through (which will likely result in an uncancelled TIP that will show up later). Has happened to me twice at very busy border posts down south. He may also accept the bill of sale plus original papers.
HOWEVER, how do you get into the next country? You may have no acceptable proof that you do own the vehicle unless they do accept the bill of sale, which they might, in conjunction with the original paperwork. Insurance might also be a problem since they like all the paperwork to match up.

Lots of mights and maybes, but you did raise your concerns so ...

Obviously the idea is to cut off any international trade in stolen vehicles.

Maybe we are alarming you unnecessarily because obviously a lot of the vehicle sales down here are not even done with proper bills of sale and I guess they manage to travel around OK. Same with transfers in Uruguay. I know of vehicles that have sat there beyond the 12 months yet then see the new owner driving around down south so obviously there are plenty of holes to get through. A lot of the vehicles aren't worth a great amount so losing it may not be a problem, but some of them are multi-tens of thousands of dollars so walking away is not a nice option Xfiltrate - a long-time member here has been a strong advocate of caution when it comes to buying and selling vehicles and he plainly says it is illegal unless some fairly complex and expensive legalities are completed. Obviously he is correct, but in the real world things sometimes fall through cracks so buying and selling goes on with a high chance of success.

Recent reports claim that two vehicles have been confiscated at two different Argentina border crossings within a couple of months of each other so if they are true - and every reason to believe them - a successful sale is not a given.

Purely as an aside, A couple of my RVs are owned by a Montana Limited Liability Company - which allows me to easily own vehicles in the US, but when we take them over a border, we also need a Power of Attorney whereby the directors of the company - namely me, give the driver - namely me, permission to take the vehicle over the border. To back that up, I need the LLC documentation and personal documentation.
Mexico Aduana insisted on the Poder and I had one printed up with all the relevant details but without having had it notarised in the US, but that was good enough. For down here, I did get the document properly notarised in the USA but shouldn't need it because I changed the name of the LLC to be the same as our jount names so the title and registration have our names on them with just the "LLC" on the end being a bit of a clue. We'll see.

Hi Tony

Yes lots of mights and maybes. The whole buying process went wrong for me from the start because I was supposed to come months ago and do the vehicle transfer through a border but a family crisis made me late by over a month and by then the seller had already left, leaving the truck with a friend. I had already paid half the money so didnt want to loose that or loose out on the opportunity that I had been planning for years so here I am trying to decide what to do next.

As for the truck paperwork,I have exactly the same as what the previous owner had, Bill of sale and my details entered into the car passport, both stamped and he managed to drive through 6 others countries ok with no problems so its just getting out or AR i'm concerned about

Im thinking I might try a lesser known border first and leave the truck a few km away and walk there. If all goes well and the TIP is accepted then great, if things turn bad I can just say that I crashed the car and just want to hand in the document and try something and somewhere else

I have pm'd you regarding the PODA as well and I have a few more questions on that, could I get the pre owner to get one done in Spain and send it to me and should it be in Spanish?

Thanks again for the help and advise, it has made me feel a little less lost and a bit more confident in what I need to try to achieve

I thought with the first few responses I got on this tread all I was going to get was trolled

Thanks again mate

[Tony LEE]

The gentle delights of Schadenfreude aren't confined to laughing at someone slipping on the proverbial banana peel so you have to expect a bit on these sort of forums.

In these sort of matters, the advice you get is just going to be based on a sample of one or two at the most and perversely, we probably don't hear about the failures, only the successes, so you can't extrapolate too far.

The Poder I have for myself driving my own company car (once I am over the Argentine border) was based on a real one written by the "lawyer" that did work and I have done it in reasonable Spanish, google translated Portuguese and paraphrased English printed on card stock and with the US notarisation pasted on the back looks nearly as impressive as the one issued in BA, but may turn out to be not worth the paper it is printed on.

Separate to the two confiscations that were reported on forums, I also remember a lady in Ushuiai last Christmas telling several fellow travellers of their fairly expensive escapade. They did get an official Argentine Bill of Sale drawn up and witnessed and dated and headed for the border. Officer said this document proves you bought the vehicle in Argentina and that is illegal and you are in trouble. She refused to tell us exactly what it cost to get their vehicle back - said too embarrassed to - other than to say it was a very large amount. The fine did succeed in getting everything regularised and they continued their planned trip with no other problems other than a lighter wallet.

That doesn't help you much of course but might help in the planning. Even if the worst happens, I doubt whether there is much chance of getting into trouble personally.

[s445203]

Hmm. Doesn't sound like a good situation to be in.

What I can add from personal experience is:
1. Don't chance it at the border. I had my bike confiscated for "illegally" crossing the border 50metres away from the main road at which the proper border crossing was closed due to Bolivian protests last year. It took me 4 days of hanging around to sort out.

2. There is a world of difference in going to the border and trying something on and going to the local AFIP office and asking a hypothetical question. At least in my experience, the AFIP office people were very helpful. Get someone who is good at Spanish if you're not, and ask hypothetically what one should do if they were in your shoes.

My guess is as far as the Argentine law is concerned, it is illegal to sell a non Argentinean vehicle inside Argentina. They have a computer record that shows the vehicle has been sold if you rock-up at the border. To straighten out the proper way you will need to own up to an illegal transfer and pay the fine. This may well be the dutiable value of the car (that's what they tried with me and my bike) which will be a material % of some ridiculous book value the Aduana maintain. And it will take days to sort out. The alternative is you fly the vendor our and you transfer between borders like most do. I'm not sure there's much else in between.

The carrot you can wave at the vendor is that if they ever try to set foot in Argentina (a truly wonderful place IMHO) after their TVIP expires, they will experience the full blunt end of the Argentine bureaucracy if things are left as they stand.

You will hear countless stories of successful bribes taking place - in my experience I find those stories v. hard to square up with the Germanic streak that runs through most Argentines but that's just my experience.

Good luck.

[kingkurt]

Originally Posted by Tony LEE

The gentle delights of Schadenfreude aren't confined to laughing at someone slipping on the proverbial banana peel so you have to expect a bit on these sort of forums.

In these sort of matters, the advice you get is just going to be based on a sample of one or two at the most and perversely, we probably don't hear about the failures, only the successes, so you can't extrapolate too far.

The Poder I have for myself driving my own company car (once I am over the Argentine border) was based on a real one written by the "lawyer" that did work and I have done it in reasonable Spanish, google translated Portuguese and paraphrased English printed on card stock and with the US notarisation pasted on the back looks nearly as impressive as the one issued in BA, but may turn out to be not worth the paper it is printed on.

Separate to the two confiscations that were reported on forums, I also remember a lady in Ushuiai last Christmas telling several fellow travellers of their fairly expensive escapade. They did get an official Argentine Bill of Sale drawn up and witnessed and dated and headed for the border. Officer said this document proves you bought the vehicle in Argentina and that is illegal and you are in trouble. She refused to tell us exactly what it cost to get their vehicle back - said too embarrassed to - other than to say it was a very large amount. The fine did succeed in getting everything regularised and they continued their planned trip with no other problems other than a lighter wallet.

That doesn't help you much of course but might help in the planning. Even if the worst happens, I doubt whether there is much chance of getting into trouble personally.

Hi Tony

I am in Paraguay!! Its a very long story but heres a brief rundown :- I tried two different Balsa ferries, the bridge at Posadas and finally the bridge at the Falls. One of the ferries was closed and the other would not take me and at the bridge at Posadas I think they wanted to take the truck, lucky I left it in town and walked there. So I finally decided to take the Iguacu falls bridge over to Brazil and pretend to be a tourist going over just for a day, that didnt work either so I thought 'sod it', Ill show them the TIP and the PODER and a load of other paperwork stapled together including bill of sale and insurance and anything else I could add to make it look more important. They looked everything over, asked a few questions about the stamps on the PODER and I just said 'international' went away, came back, went away again and then another guy I hadnt seen yet came back and gave me my passport

Result!!!

I think the PODER may have saved my Bacon and thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to give me that advise and also the other stuff you sent me and PMs

In over 5 years on the HUBB and more than 80 posts, mostly asking for help I think you have helped me the most and I am extremely grateful for that.

How did you get on with your crossing? I hope you did as well!

Cheers

[kingkurt]

Originally Posted by s445203

Hmm. Doesn't sound like a good situation to be in.

What I can add from personal experience is:
1. Don't chance it at the border. I had my bike confiscated for "illegally" crossing the border 50metres away from the main road at which the proper border crossing was closed due to Bolivian protests last year. It took me 4 days of hanging around to sort out.

2. There is a world of difference in going to the border and trying something on and going to the local AFIP office and asking a hypothetical question. At least in my experience, the AFIP office people were very helpful. Get someone who is good at Spanish if you're not, and ask hypothetically what one should do if they were in your shoes.

My guess is as far as the Argentine law is concerned, it is illegal to sell a non Argentinean vehicle inside Argentina. They have a computer record that shows the vehicle has been sold if you rock-up at the border. To straighten out the proper way you will need to own up to an illegal transfer and pay the fine. This may well be the dutiable value of the car (that's what they tried with me and my bike) which will be a material % of some ridiculous book value the Aduana maintain. And it will take days to sort out. The alternative is you fly the vendor our and you transfer between borders like most do. I'm not sure there's much else in between.

The carrot you can wave at the vendor is that if they ever try to set foot in Argentina (a truly wonderful place IMHO) after their TVIP expires, they will experience the full blunt end of the Argentine bureaucracy if things are left as they stand.

You will hear countless stories of successful bribes taking place - in my experience I find those stories v. hard to square up with the Germanic streak that runs through most Argentines but that's just my experience.

Good luck.

Thanks for your input but I managed to get out of Argentina and am now in Paraguay, great blog by the way

Cheers

[Tony LEE]

Glad that you made it - eventually.

I had the slight extra complication that we need a visa to get into Brazil and to issue that without requiring a flight or ticket onwards, I had to give the man a copy of my (legitimate) Montana Title.

As for the actual crossing, I could have driven a Sherman Tank across and nobody would have known. I did the passport thing on the Argentinian side by taking both passports in, leaving the copilot to watch the truck. Man objected a little but processed both passports anyway. Got back in the truck and drove out expecting to get flagged down by a man demanding the TIP. 100 yards down the road and obviously well out of the border post and still no man. UhOh! Needed to hand in the TIP so the previous owners won't get bunged if they ever return. So pulled off the main drag and walked back waving the TIP. Hello! Anybody? Nobody! Spotted a man lounging against the wall way over to the side and walked over still waving the TIP and asked him where I should hand it in. He jumped up and said "right here". Phew! Gave him my best relieved-smile, thrust the TIP at him and he took it. Said thanks a bunch, see you later and walked back to the truck which was well out of sight from there.

So the 850 pesos I spent on the PODER was a complete waste of money, but given that we would never have gotten over the border without the Poder the first time, it was good insurance to have the same documentation this time..
The other waste was having two insurance policies running concurrently but again, good precaution against problems.

Brazil side was similar non-event and we were away.

[s445203]

Brilliant!

Glad you made it, and especially glad my opinion was proved wrong! Have a great trip!

[ta-rider]

Glad to hear you made it. The situation in Argentina seems to get wors

[kingkurt]

Originally Posted by Tony LEE

Glad that you made it - eventually.

I had the slight extra complication that we need a visa to get into Brazil and to issue that without requiring a flight or ticket onwards, I had to give the man a copy of my (legitimate) Montana Title.

As for the actual crossing, I could have driven a Sherman Tank across and nobody would have known. I did the passport thing on the Argentinian side by taking both passports in, leaving the copilot to watch the truck. Man objected a little but processed both passports anyway. Got back in the truck and drove out expecting to get flagged down by a man demanding the TIP. 100 yards down the road and obviously well out of the border post and still no man. UhOh! Needed to hand in the TIP so the previous owners won't get bunged if they ever return. So pulled off the main drag and walked back waving the TIP. Hello! Anybody? Nobody! Spotted a man lounging against the wall way over to the side and walked over still waving the TIP and asked him where I should hand it in. He jumped up and said "right here". Phew! Gave him my best relieved-smile, thrust the TIP at him and he took it. Said thanks a bunch, see you later and walked back to the truck which was well out of sight from there.

So the 850 pesos I spent on the PODER was a complete waste of money, but given that we would never have gotten over the border without the Poder the first time, it was good insurance to have the same documentation this time..
The other waste was having two insurance policies running concurrently but again, good precaution against problems.

Brazil side was similar non-event and we were away.

Great news!!

Looks like the Border crossing gods were looking down on us both then

As far as all your extra paperwork and policies that turned out to be unessasary, at least they were in place just in case

'If you got it you probably wont need it but if you dont then you probably will'

Good luck with the rest of your trip

Cheers

[s445203]

Sheesh!

Lighten up Cleland! It sounds like what the OP did was entirely legal - he went up to the border and had all his paperwork checked and was allowed to proceed.

You seem to treat legality as a black and white thing - it rarely is, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for lawyers. I bet you you can't show me anywhere that explains exactly what jurisdiction applies when people change ownership between borders; or indeed it's hard to argue what country the change of ownership actually takes place when you transfer UK registration for a vehicle that's located in another country.

I'd agree with you this would be a different matter if we were discussing the best way to sell a 1kg of cocaine to 4 year olds, but in this case it's about people getting on and enjoying life with no harm to others. Are you saying the world would have been a better place if the OP had spent 6 months arguing with Aduana and paying some ridiculous sum in fines? Lighten up and have a good weekend!