Right again Gatogato, the correct answer will be among five possible answers at the end of PART THREE of the answers. But, the multiple choice answers will not be presented until all of the questions that were posed at the beginning of this thread are answered.

Here are the original questions, found at the beginning of this thread that I am answering.

"How easy will it be to sell my bike down there?
What is the precedure for transfereing the tittle if it's US registered?
In the Central American countries there is such a high import tax you couldn't even give the bike away what about Argentina/Chile?"

PART TWO: SAM, JOE and BARBARA

Joe had selected a Chilean restaurant for the previous night's dinner invitation to the two Arizonans, Sam and Barbara . Joe was personal friends with the owner of the restaurant, who was also an attorney and worked as a criminal defense lawyer in Santiago.

When Joe arrived at the restaurant, Sam and Barbara were standing, helmets in hand, near the big BMW parked at the curb. Joe said, " I see you made it OK," looked at the bike and opened the restaurant door. All three were welcomed in and seated by Jose Luis, the owner of the restaurant.

Sam appeared a little stressed that the subject of Joe buying the BMW did not come up during dinner and finally asked, "were you serious when you offered to buy my bike?" Without losing a beat, Joe's auto response was, "guess it depends on how much it will cost me?"

Sam relaxed a little and honestly stated, the bike is equipped for touring and would sell easily in the States for $15,000 US, and here I have seen the same bike, not equipped for touring, for sale for $20,000 US.

"Wow, why the big difference?" Joe knew, but asked to find out how much Sam knew about selling a US registered bike in Chile. "Has something to do with an import tax imposed on foreign bikes, before they can be registered and then sold in Chile. I think" was Sam's honest answer.

"But!" Sam quickly added, "that has nothing to do with you buying my bike, because you don't intend on registering it in Chile, do you??? "No" if I buy it I plan to fly it to Colorado, that is if the price is right." "So?" "How much will she cost me?"

"Ok" we don't want to do anything illegal here, right?" "Right!" They both agree.

"How about $10,000 dollars, cash?" "And, you ride it to Colorado." Now, Joe was caught a bit off guard, he had not considered the possibility of riding from Chile to Colorado, and it sounded like a damn good idea. After all, his venture in Chile had been very profitable and for ten years he has wanted a real vacation....

"What a great idea. I buy your bike, then during the next 6 months I ride South and then Central America and on up to Colorado. I would love to do that. I had a Harley when I was younger."

"Is it possible?" asks Joe... "Of Course!" replies Sam, I have just finished a ride from Arizona to Panama, flew the bike here to Santiago, no problems." "I had planned to continue on to Argentina and several more South American Countries, but, you know the story." "Yeah, Yeah, tough luck, OK I'll give you $8,000.00 for the bike, if Barbara will notarize your signature on the back of the Arizona title, and she will confirm that with this title, once I reach Colorado, I will be able to register the bike in Colorado in my name."

Surprisingly quiet Barbara, now proclaims, "Yes Joe, with Sam's signature, and his Arizona drivers license number and US passport number as identification, I will notarize his signature, on the reverse of the Arizona title, as seller of the BMW to you." "This will, make the bike legally yours.... in Arizona, that is and you will be free to have this title transferred to a Colorado title in your name, according to the laws and regulations of Colorado." "I will also notarize your signature, on the back of the arizona title, as buyer, this is also required, so that Sam is released from any potential liability occurring in Arizona."

As an after thought, and looking directly at Joe, Babara adds.... "Sam gave me a ride, to the restaurant that is, and I can also attest that his bike runs great."

The following conversation goes like this.... "Wait, only $8,000.00?" I said $10,000.00." "Yes, I know but my offer is $8,000.00, take it or leave it."

After a moment of silence, Joe adds, look, I am at risk here... I have no idea how I am going to buy insurance, cross borders etc. etc. This is going to be a risky adventure for me, and I am offering, in part, to help you in a time of need." "Take it or leave it."

"OK, I'll take it, but you are getting a hell of a deal!"

END PART TWO: SAM, JOE AND BARBARA

PART THREE SOON

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com
Discover how to legally Buy, Tour and Sell a motorcycle in Argentina

Once Sam agreed to accept Joe's offer, they both relaxed ... and Joe began to feel the slow rush of adrenalin that mysteriously begins to course through his body and mind at the beginning of a every new business venture or a big trip, or before sex.

Barbara sensing the moment, wondered silently about the odds defying flow of events that brought the three of them together. Had she not noticed Joe and the Arizona plates on his bike as he parked in front of a bar in Santiago, Chile, this might not be happening. At the bank where she worked in Phoenix, Arizona she had often notarized vehicle title transfers and knew that she was needed. Well, anyway, a certified notary was needed, needed to identify Sam with two forms of signed picture ID, observe him sign as the seller on the back of the BMWs Arizona title, verify his signature against his signatures on the picture IDs and then affix her notary seal and signature. She knew little , and cared less about title transfers beyond notarizing the signature of the seller.

Barbara's attention returned to Joe as he was explaining to Sam the location of the Santiago American Express office where at 11 the next morning, he would give Sam the $8,000 dollars and then, with Barbara as Notary, Sam could sign the back of Arizona title of the BMW as seller.

Joe wanted a closer look at the BMW and needed some time to reflect upon his decision to buy, so he casually mentioned that it was late and he wanted to spend time with his good friend Jose Louis, attorney and owner of the restaurant. Once out of the restaurant Sam swung effortlessly onto the comfortable seat of the bike, and waited until Barbara had put on her helmet and carefully pinioned behind him. Only then did he don his own helmet and touch the starter button. As expected the big BMW purred to life and they were off.

As he headed back to his table, and his laptop, he caught Jose Luis off guard by asking if there was WI-FI.

"Amigo, you think this is some third world country?" "Absolutamente, we have WI FI" "Why?"

"Well, I just want to take a look at the State of Arizona Motor Vehicles web site."

"You going to Arizona?"

"No, no, tomorrow I am going to buy that BMW that those two kids just rode out a here."

"You are going to do WHAT!!!"

"Buy the bike, buy the bike, and then ride it back to Colorado." Haven't you been telling me for years I work too hard and should take a long vacation?"

"Amigo, No sé nada about the Arizona Motor Vehicle regulations but, you buy that Arizona bike in Chile and instead of a vacation you might end up in a very uncomfortable jail cell."

"What?"

"You are on the right track, take a look at the Arizona Department of transportation web site while I close up the restaurant and then we will talk."

The following was copied from:

Arizona Department of Transportation

Soon after loading the ADOT web site, Joe knew he had made a very bad decision.

Seller

When a vehicle is sold (or otherwise transferred) you, the seller, should:

Sign off the back of the title and have your signature notarized.
Give the title to the buyer with any lien release, if applicable.
Complete a sold notice online, or on the back of the vehicle registration.
Remove and retain the license plate, instead of leaving the plate on the vehicle. The plate belongs to you, the vehicle owner not the vehicle. You can later transfer the plate to another vehicle that you register.
Request a refund (see Refunds below). –or–
Transfer the plate credit to another vehicle owned (see Credit For Fees below).

Buyer

Upon sale or transfer of a vehicle, the registration for that vehicle is no longer valid. The buyer must visit any MVD or authorized Third Party office to transfer the plate and register the vehicle.

If it is necessary to drive the vehicle to complete this transaction, the buyer must obtain a Restricted Use 3-Day Permit, for private sales, or a Temporary Registration Plate, for vehicles purchased from a licensed dealer


"Amigo, you learn anything from the web site?"

"Yeah, looks like if I buy the bike, the license plate is not included, and the registration no longer legal until I visit the motor vehicles department and transfer the title."

"What does it say about "INSURANCE?" As your friend and an attorney, I am not going to allow you to ride that bike anywhere with out insurance."

"No problem José Luis, I'll buy insurance here."

"Es possible," " I am sure there are more than one insurance company in Santiago, that will sell you insurance, but the minute you have an accident, damage something, or kill someone with that bike, an attorney representing the insurance company, will look at the copy of the title you submitted and immediately declare that you fraudulently purchased insurance for a bike that you do not hold title to." "You, might be able to buy insurance, but you will have no coverage."

"José Luis, from what I just read.... I might have another "problema." "What license plate number will appear on the insurance card?" "Sam is required to remove the plate." "And, how will I ride from Chile to Colorado without a license plate."

"You won't." "Matter of fact you won't get out of Chile on that bike."

"Why not?"

"Because... when your friend collected his bike from the "aduana" at the airport, he was issued what is called a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit" (TVIP) which clearly states that the "vehicle" or "motorcycle" is not to be sold in Chile, therefore TVIPs are non transferrable." "And, in order to exit Chile you must turn in the TVIP, show the title and possibly submit the bike to an inspection of the vin #, that hopefully, matches the vin # on the title."

"For each border between here and Colorado you cross, you will be required to show title to obtain a TVIP and you might have to prove you have insurance, you might not, but you might." "When you cannot ride further north, you will have to ship or fly the bike to Panama and without a proper title, I doubt any reputable shipper will carry a bike, with a questionable title, as cargo."

"Look Joe, you need to back out of this deal."

"I am to meet those kids at American Express in the morning." I like them both, they just met and this was not a set up. This I know for sure. Perhaps I could lend Sam a couple grand, if he had the money he would ride the bike back to Arizona himself."

"Joe I'll be there for you in the morning, now go get some sleep."

The next morning Joe withdrew $2,000.00 dollars on his American Express card and while he waited in the vip lounge of American Express, he penned an agreement to repay $2,000.00 to be signed by Sam. When José Louis arrived he looked confident, and as was customary he handed his friend Joe a Cuban cigar.

From the vip lounge both men saw Sam and Barbara arrive on the BMW. Barbara took Sam's arm as they approached the upscale building. They burst into the lounge and after Barbara kissed both men on the cheek, she proclaimed, "we have some good news." This obviously positive spin got Joe's attention.

"Tell them Sam." "Gentlemen, it seems as if Barbara was temporarily laid off from the bank in Phoenix, and has unemployment insurance for six months. She, has agreed to finance our trip back to Arizona! She will lend me the money for my share of the expenses, and of course, I provide a ride home for her." "And, she was wise enough to buy a refundable airline ticket."

"Wow, that's good news!" Joe winked at José Luis, and said, you know I like you kids, I am happy for you, a bit envious, but certain you will have a great ride home."

"All of this is so exciting." "I like Sam, and I believe this journey, through foreign lands, is just the way to get to know him better." Can you believe, he is a customer at the bank where I work!" "This was meant to be!"

"Well, you two have many kilometers to ride, be good to each other, and with that Joe began to unwrap the Cuban cigar." As the two friends watched the BMW disappear into traffic and the smoke of 2 Cuban cigars, they remembered why they liked each other.

END PART THREE

Multiple choice test soon.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com
Discover how to legally Buy, Tour and Sell a motorcycle in Argentina

Ok...good info here. Now it is 2016 and I need to either ship or sell my Yamaha Super Tenere. Shiping via Dakar Motors in BA is an option. Looks like selling in Iquque Chile is not really an option....has this changed? Any info apprecieated as we are approaching BA after a great 1.5 year trip from Seattle.

Carl

xfiltrate ...you are the most knowledgeable person I have seen on the net lately regarding selling a bike in Chile. We saw bikes change hands in P Areanas but forien bike to forien owner...wasn't easy but can be done legally.

Thanks
Carl

Silverfin, please fill in the details of how to do a legal title transfer of a foreign registered bike entered into Chile on a TVIP, by a foreign owner to a foreign buyer while the bike is physically in Chile.

I am sure many reading here would greatly appreciate it. There might have been new legislation.

I have established my position, but other points of view are more than welcome.

Note: IMHO Chile is a member of the Mercosur trade block and all Mercosur
countries agreed to universal TVIP regulations, regarding the sale of a vehicle entered on a TVIP. Enforcement is undoubtably another story.

xfiltrate

Hi HUBBs.

I have a huge problem and I really do not know what to do, so I hope someone of this forum can help.

I bought a bike from another HU member in Brazil. He promised it'd be OK and I also had a mechanic look over it to verify it has no major problem.

However, I am in Mendoza, Argentina now and travelling to here was a nightmare. Over 5 breakdowns cost me already a fortune, now it seems the motor has a severe problem, which I financially cannot afford repairing.

In short this means that my trip needs to end now and I have to get rid of the bike. I imported it temporarily and legally into the country and I read I cannot leave without it. I could drive it to Chile as I'm close to the border, but I'm not sure if that would change anything? Driving it far to another country is no option as I don't want to break down in the desert again.

Question is: is there a legal option to get rid of the bike in Argentina or Chile, so I can leave the country ( no return planned ) ?

Yours desperately,
Fabian

Fabian, so sorry to learn of your break downs.

Just curious, how much did you pay for the bike? You don't have to answer.

What I need to know is:

Who told you you cannot leave Argentina without your bike? What exactly were you told?

How are you planning to exit Argentina? By Bus? By Air? By sea or some other way?

How much time is left on your TVIP?

FYI, I am not aware of any barrier to you leaving Argentina without your motorcycle - as long as your TVIP is still valid.... and this may or may not be verified.

Is there any indication stamped into your passport that claims you entered Argentina with a motorcycle? Usually there is not.

If you exit via a border/airport/port with an up to date, working computer, your TVIP might be associated with your passport #, but if your TVIP is still valid, this should not prevent you from leaving the country. Do not try to leave the country if your TVIP has expired, if it is expired, renew it before attempting to leave the country. This could be a problem.

Please advise who told you you cannot leave the country without the bike? , and what did they say... I really would like to know.

In what country, what state of the USA is the bike registered? If it was a foreign registered bike, entered into Brazil on a TVIP and a tourist owner sold it to you, since bikes entered into Brazil on a TVIP cannot be sold legally, the previous "Hubber"owner still owns the bike, not you.

This will only be discovered if a careful title check is done - usually by an insurance company faced with a liability action.

Please give me the data I request here so I might better understand your situation. And stay cool, you will be OK, this will also pass.

xfiltrate

Hey xfiltrate, thanks for responding so quickly!

I payed US$1800 for the bike, being travel-ready (including panniers etc).

A friend of mine told me that leaving the bike in Argentina is not legal, if I plan to leave it here forever (btw, I'm German). I understand that if the bike overstays the TVIP, I get a fine or even worse ( like a ban from the country,...), so I don't see an option how to do this right now.

I would like to leave Argentina by plane.

My TVIP was issued 10 days ago, so it's valid till 07/04/2016.

I don't see any indication in my passport, looks to me like the regular stamp, except the "TA" mark is checked on the transitation part (last time when entering without an own vehicle, "OT" was stamped - don't know if that means something or not.

Also, there's some numbers hand-written next to it (sth like 9012105).

The bike was (is?) registered in Washington, USA. The owner drove it to South America, where another and another traveller bought and sold it, till I finally bought it in Brazil.

On thing I still don't understand: If I entered the country with a bike (if it's officially mine or not) and I have a TVIP with my passport, and I leave the country WITHOUT the bike for good, what happens once the TVIP is expired?

Thank you!

Fabian,

OK, your friend was correct, under normal circumstances it would be illegal for the owner to have a foreign registered bike in Argentina after the TVIP has expired. and, if you are stopped by police or try to exit the bike would be confiscated and you would be fined or both.

This is correct, but says nothing about your question that I thought you asked..., which was:

Your quote "I read I cannot leave without it"

I need to know where did you read this?
Let us be very clear here, if your TVIP - were legal and you leave Argentina during the term of the TVIP, this is permitted and as long as you return to Argentina before the expiration of your TVIP you will have no problem.

Dates are written differently in Europe, the USA and South America etc
please tell me if your TVIP expires July 4, 2016 or April 7, 2016?
Both can be written 07/04/2016.

When do you plan to return to Argentina, if you do plan to return.

OK, here is the reality, it is possible you entered a bike you do not own into Argentina - did the previous owner - the one who - according to the State of Washington USA owns the bike - give you written permission to ride his/her bike and to ride it out of Brazil and into Argentina? In whose name was the title of the bike when you applied for the TVIP at the border?

If the bike still bears Washington plates, it is a simple matter for Argentine customs to determine the true owner of the bike by calling Department of transportation State of Washington, or ever look it up on the internet........ and if it is not you, then you illegally imported the bike into Argentina. If the Washington title for the bike is actually registered in your name, you are the owner of the bike and have a legal TVIP that you must honor.

Otherwise, when found by authorities the bike will be traced to the owner listed as owner by the State of Washington, and it will be then considered a stolen bike when the name on the TVIP differers from the name of the true owner. Or, not. With great regularity things might or might not happen in Argentina.

Are the numbers hand written in your passport similar to the VIN "vehicle identification" number on your bike - chassis or motor number? If they are, this means your passport is associated with you bike and your TVIP.

I am not familiar with the meaning of TA or OT - you might check with an Argentine friend as to the meanings.

OK do you plan on returning to Argentina? Will you return before the expiration of your TVIP? If you return after the expiration, yes a fine might be imposed if you are stopped by police, and possibly the bike confiscated but I doubt you will be prevented from entering Argentina. I am not absolutely sure.

To answer you last question - If you leave Argentina for good, and do not plan on returning, any abandoned bike will be either stolen by a local and sold for parts, confiscated by the police and sold, and held until auctioned off, and that will be the end of it. I doubt you will be pursued beyond the borders of Argentina.

More than likely, the expiration date of the TVIP will come and go and no action will be taken until you show up to renew your TVIP or try to leave the country with the bike or are stopped for a routine traffic check while riding the bike....- in the past, renewals of expired TVIPs - if you have a good reason for leaving the bike - leaving for medical care etc, are around $600.00 US dollars. It could be much more as this was true about 5 years ago.

I would suggest going to the authorities, but due to the possibility that you are not the legal owner of the bike - this might not be advisable. I do not know the procedure of Washington State for transfer of title, if you have to be a resident of Washington State or not, I think you do.... but anyway the Hubber you bought the bike from was probably not the legal owner of the bike either. I do not know until you give me the info requested here.

I hope I am answering your questions. Be as specific as possible.

xfiltrate

Thanks again for all your effort and time.

Maybe I did not make my point clear: I would like to legally get rid of the bike in Argentina, so I can leave the country without the bike and without worrying about the TVIP to expire.

The TVIP is valid till 7th of April, 2016. I do not plan to return to Argentina at all, however, I don't want to lock myself out.

What legal options do I have ? Sell it? Report it stolen? Leave it at the border? And if I return to ARG by plane (without bike) though the TVIP expired, will this be a problem?

We found ourselves in your situation just a year ago and ended up following the practical advice given to us by other travellers. Our two DR where picked up by two overlanders who happily rode them out of Argentina and throughout South America without any problem whatsoever. Thus confirming the veracity of similar experiences shared by other overlanders.

It is my opinion that Xfiltrate makes a business out of scaring travellers by brandishing the ominous spectre of laws nobody else seem to know or be concerned with.

We are glad to not have paid any attention to his scaremongering.

__________________
wolfandzebra.com

R3dFox, keep me posted.

wolfandzebra, I will not dignify your comments
unless you cite an example of anything I have stated here or in any other HUBB post that is not clearly stated in Argentine/Mercosur law.

I will be more than pleased to provide documentation.

W&Z What do you mean your bikes were "picked up" by others, maybe a little more detail would be helpful to R3dFox. If you sold them to other foreigners after entering them into Argentina on TVIPs, that would have been illegal by Argentine TVIP regulations.

Scary or not, it is the law. If abiding by the law is scary, imagine how scary it is to be riding a bike in South America without proper title and thus not having valid insurance.

Out of respect to the moderators, I will not be continuing posting on this thread unless asked to provide specific law documenting what I have previously stated. Scary or not!

xfiltrate

The problem is that some people get away with something and then claim because nothing happened to them, anyone can do the same thing quite legally. All that needs to happen for that twisted logic to be fully debunked is for just one person to get into trouble following that advice. I have proof that if certain advice regarding PODERS is followed, the result may be confiscation of the vehicle. I don't have to prove that everyone doing this gets into trouble, just need to show that one person did.
XFiltrate is perhaps a tad overcautious and that is a trait that is just a result of someone applying basic duty of care when giving advice. Especially on an open forum like this where it is impossible to gauge just how sensible or savvy a poster is, it is normal for advice to be given so as to "do no harm". Your "advice" - which was really not advice at all, merely an outcome, is not "do no harm" If you follow his advice, you will not get into problems. If you choose to ignore his advice, you may run into problems or may not depending on how you go about it.

__________________
Tony
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