What's to stop you putting a tube in a tubeless tyre? Bet an old tyre wouldn't need 120psi to seat. And even if you do need a lift to the nearest town someone usually happens along sooner or later.

Agree that alloy wheels aren't up to the job.

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You could... You still need to get the tyres on and off though..

That's A LOT harder with a tubeless tyre as the rim has a much deeper bead and the tyres generally have a stiffer side wall. They take more PSI to correctly seat too...

Give it a go

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And yet, and yet... There are all those GSs running around the world and people seem to manage. My last puncture was the one on the XJ mentioned earlier and that was 20 years ago. Must get out more...

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Yes, AFAIK, most tube tires are belted (cross plies) vs. high end road tires which are steel belted. Much better puncture protection from the steel screen and a stronger, longer lasting tire as well.

Not sure why Tube type tires do not use steel belts :confused1: ... but most don't. Most 600 class dual sport bikes use tube type tires, but some riders convert to tubeless by sealing the spokes and installing a tubeless valve. (yes, can be done) or use tubeless type rims to start.

For ALL road, ALL the time, tubeless gets my vote too ... but that's not on the menu' for me. I like exploring dirt roads and crossing Deserts. I'm done trying to Horse around a heavy monster off road that can squish me like a Grape. Too much like work. Even a 600 is work, but doable.

Another solution we used on our Enduro race bikes (AMA Enduro) was to use an old inner tube as a liner for extra protection. Adds a layer. Doing this I got only ONE flat in 8 years of competition ... and that was a front tire (with NO liner!) which I continued to ride to the finish of the event flat. (Metzeler dirt tires are super stiff)

I would consider using a liner on rear tire ... as the rear is the bugger.
Fronts are a 10 to 15 minute job most times. Easy.

I've witnessed Mexican Llanteros (tire repair guys) vulcanize on BIG patches (piece of old tire) to the inside of a tire to heal up a slice. Damned if it doesn't work. Lots of toxic smoke and fire involved ... and that's why it's 100% illegal in USA and probably EU/UK. Is that tire 100% safe? No way ... but it'll get you another 1000 miles. (slowly)

Ted's pic earlier in the thread shows an improvised vulcanizer. That is exactly how they do patches in Mexico as well .... minus the Noon Prayer.

Often times in the 3rd (or less developed) world there are plenty of tire repair places in small towns or villages. True in much of Mexico, Cent. America, also true in Thailand and Cambodia. So if you get a flat and you're not too far, often you can ride flat to town for repair. Have a cold ... while they do ALL the work. (with you watching near by).
Tres dolarles por favor! I've done this MANY times. (for myself and riding buddies)

Limited experience (Former brakes engineer) but I would guess that tube tyres are cross ply to reduce the amount of wire which stores heat, reduce the weight (as the tube is adding more) and make the sidewall pliable enough to get on and off with levers.

Don't forget there are manufacturers that go for the worst possible combination too. Tubeless shape rim drilled through for spokes and running a tube. You get the heat and repair hassle of the tube but keep the need to find a bead breaker. All about getting you into their boutiques as a Sunday morning alternative to Starbucks. I have seen a BMW G650 stranded with exactly this issue, can't patch it, can't plug it, call the RAC and get hauled off to go shopping.

Andy

I've never bothered with carrying inner tubes or stuff like that on the trips I've done (just a plug kit and a small compressor), but as I'm planning to go further into deepest darkest Africa next time, has anyone had any experience with those Motion Pro bead breaker tyre levers. Seem like a pretty good idea- I see no real reason why you can't change a radial on a BMW cross spoke rim- the worst tyres I've ever come across to change are Bridgestone BT45 crossplies on Laverda Jota rims- the well just ain't deep enough and damn, those tyres are stiff.

BeadPro Tire Bead Breaker and Lever Tool Set | Motion Pro

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If you practice a bit it should go easy.
I have removed and installed tyres on R80/1100/R1200 with two 20cm levers and a small handpump. It's not fun but it's not a problem.

Some pics in post 4: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-breaker-27763

You don't need a bead breaker, you need practice!
The tubeless shape is smart, it's called safety-lip for a reason


X-laced wheels are by design stronger then conventional wheel (if same materials are used). But I agree that rims for the R1xxx GS are to soft, R80/100 are better than most. It's hard to find good rims for all heavy bikes.

The Motion Pro bead breaker set up gets good reviews so far.
A couple friends I ride with have them ... but no road side flats yet. I'm thinking of getting them myself. The stuff is actually tested!

Lots of tires can be tough to break down, not just the Bridgestones. But as mentioned above: Practice! It's all technique!

Once you've seen a pro ISDE guy attack a tire change you'll never look upon tire repair the same ever again. It's a violent process. (wear boots, gloves and knee pads)

If you want to run on deflated tires, i.e. on sand, then you can quickly find yourself in heaps of trouble if you are riding tubeless. With low pressure you risk loosing the remaining pressure quickly or even instantly... Also, riding with low pressure will break down the sealing capabilities of your tire. With innertubes, this is not an issue.

Now, if I wasn't to deflate the tires with any significance, I would surely conscider tubeless.

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Perhaps I am out of my depth here, but I ride an NX400 Honda Falcon and have done so for more than 55,000 K through 8 South American Countries, currently bike is in Colombia and I am in Arizona due to rosa del desiertos fractured toes not a punctured tire.

I have had several punctures until I spotted a motorcycle tire called "Scorpion" tubeless it is either a Pirelli or Michelin I did not pay any attention after I noted how tough it looked -

I just instructed my tire guy to put a tube in it, an off I rode.

I like the new found traction and no punctures thus far, 1 yeah vote for tubes in a tubeless tire.

xfiltrate

You may be a bit out your depth ... in fact, you can't run tubeless on your Honda. Why? It's got spoked wheels ... as you may have noticed! A tubeless tire is fine ... but will need a tube in it to be air tight.

Many many bikes can use a "Tubeless" tire on a wheel with spokes. But of course, they MUST RUN A TUBE. Some tires come in BOTH "TT" (tube type) and TTL (tubeless) type tires. Get it?

A wheel with spokes is NOT air tight, so will leak air even if the tubeless tire seals against the bead (which it may not depending on style or rim) Am I making any sense here? So, even though you've got a "tubeless" tire, you must run a tube with it. Make sense?

Option:
Some riders "seal" their spoked wheels to convert them to tubeless wheels. You seal up spoke nipples in inner part of wheel. You then install a tubeless type air chuck that is Air tight.
If the bead edge is correct, you then may be able to run a tubeless tire ...without a tube.

It's been done and there are speciality wheel makers
(like Woody's Wheel Works in USA) who do conversions. Most of these shops will NOT do a front tire conversion (considered too dangerous) But fronts are a piece of cake to change compared to a rear tire, so the rear is what is done.

You may also see certain bikes with spokes that are actually tubeless type wheels. BMW, Yamaha have this on GS and Tenere'. Very very expensive wheels.

The "Scorpion" tire you refer to is a Pirelli MT90. A very good tire ... but there are TOUGHER tires out there if you look ... but you are limited in sizes for your Honda. Not sure what size rear you run? (I'd guess a 120/17?)

Mefo, Heidenau, Mitas, Metzeler Tourance, all tougher tires than your Scorpion ... and longer lasting too. But run what you can get hold of and is not too expensive.

In the USA, buy Shinko or Kenda. Cheap and Good for your bike. Check out the Shinko 705. Good road tire, lasts as long as your MT90 ... half the price.

>bikes with spokes that are actually tubeless type wheels... Very very expensive wheels.

I don't think it's particularly cost-related, after all there's not much price difference between the KTM 690 Enduro with standard spoked wheels and the KTM 690 Supermoto with it's fantastic orange tubeless spoked wheels.

Given that I can buy a KTM 1190 R with 21/18 tubeless spoked wheels I can't understand why tubeless spoked wheels aren't more widely available.

In the absence of tubeless tyres, I'm thinking of running mousses in the KTM 690 Enduro tyres, but this would limit my tarmac speeds.

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I have used the Motion Pro Bead Pro levers on tubeless (CX500) and tubed ('75 CB750, KLR) wheels/tires.

I had formerly used crossed tire irons most of the time and that works fine with practice. The Bead Pro levers make it far easier to break the bead loose. I use the Bead Pro levers at home for tire changes now.

Any idea the cost of KTM wheels for 690 or 1190R? (standard wheel)

Certainly would appear Tubeless spoked wheels ... a la BMW, KTM and Yamaha Tenere' 1200 ... are on the rise. More and more bikes using these wheels.

I would be interested in hearing from users about performance testing of these types of spoked/tubeless wheels. Are they strong? What about weight? Are they heavier than a standard spoked wheel .. or a cast wheel?

BMW were the pioneers with this ... and I do know that early BMW spoked
tubeless Behr wheels were like butter. Very problematic.

I'm not sure who makes Yamaha's spoked tubeless wheel on their Tenere'. Anyone know? My Tenere' riding buddy said they are "HEAVY" ... Dunno? :confused1:

I've thought of that too. I'd love to see Michelin and other manufacturers of Mousse inserts, make a "street version" insert that would last and handle heat better. I think they'd do well with such a product. Still very tough to change one out however. :confused1:

On the budget Dakar teams many run a Mousse for 2 or 3 race days. Factory guys usually change them out everyday. Seems to me on a 450cc bike running in sand ... those Mousses should not heat up all that much.

It's riding pavement at very high speeds (100 mph) where they heat up and self destruct ... according to reports from back in the Africa Dakar days when bikes were 850 to 1000cc with over 100 HP.
The South American event restricts road speeds now.

I think if you were doing a mostly ALL OFF ROAD tour, Mousse's may work out. Dunno, never used them. If you were abroad, in rural areas with only small towns ... and your Mousse melted ... how would you change it out?
I guess you could cut the tire off? then go back to a tube?

I'd forget mooses for Tarmac..even if keeping the speeds down..they can be made a bit less squidgy by using an old heavy duty type tube cut open with the moose inside of that,I resorted to it at an event that required a trials tyre on rear,it enable me to run a moose for a 2 day event without the worry of a puncture on a pretty long lap,but its still in the back of your mind on faster bits that the trials tyre has very soft side walls...
I don't think I'd ideally put one in anything more road orientated than a Pirelli mt 21 ideally..
They also need to be kept lubed,not realy an issue when your only getting a few days out of a tyre,but could be a bit of an issue otherwise..