Luckily for us in the UK we still have building societies which are mutuals run for the benefit of members and some offer bank type accounts with smaller or no fees for services banks charge a lot for, long may they continue and be a pain in the derriere of banks.

OK this is totally off topic, but I'm getting tired of hearing all this ill-informed populist ranting.

The problem with that rant is you owe your quality of life to banks.

If you want to know what makes some countries rich and others poor, its not doctors, its not engineers, its not levels of education.

Its bankers.

Thats why countries that want to get rich fast, like Dubai or Singapore, have as their number one strategic objective to build a major financial centre. Nothing else matters as much in raising the living standards of ordinary people.

The reason bus drivers in Bangladesh have a lower standard of living than bus drivers in Switzerland, is that Switzerland has a functional financial system (lots of bankers). After all both bus drivers have the same skills and same experience. The reason doctors in Sweden make more money than doctors in Cuba ... is because Sweden (like all wealthy countries) has a functional banking system. Cuban doctors are just as highly educated and experienced.

So you are biting the hand that feeds you when you go on about hating bankers. Your standard of living would be a fraction of what it is now without them.

All wealthy countries have advanced financial systems - run by bankers - its what makes those countries wealthy.

Countries with high levels of education, and loads of doctors or engineers per capita are not necessarily wealthy. Cuba, Ukraine etc. ... because they dont have enough bankers !

Countries with loads of mineral wealth (such as most of Africa) will also not be wealthy, unless they have a good banking / financial sector.

It might really suck to learn it, but the reality is, banks and bankers are not only essential to a functional society, but they are the single biggest reason your standard of life is as high as it is compared to other people in the world doing exactly the same job as you.

Bitching about them is laughable and shows a total lack of understanding about what their role is in the world, and how effective the financial system is in raising the living standards of the entire country.

If anything, you should be grateful ! Its thanks to banks and bankers that you have a high standard of living relative to the rest of the world.

Why do you think governments talk tough against the banks but actually in reality protect the sector?

Its because talking tough appeases the ignorants who hate the banks but have no idea how important they are, while protecting the banks is actually protecting the golden goose.

Saying you hate whole sections of the community because of what they do for a living is insane and rednecky enough ... but when its the sector that is the most important in delivering your living standards, I just shake my head and despair.

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Cole, you have some good points; some that are inarguably true, but you let your post deterioration into a rant of its own.

Stating that banks are are responsible for much of the wealth we enjoy while also saying that "bitching about them is laughable" is a dubious position. While banks and strong financial sectors generate absurd amounts of wealth for a country and its citizens, the citizens most certainly have the right (obligation?) to demand better, more ethical banks and banking practices. ("or one with [more?] morals" ~ Drwnite).

Also, there are lots "utter scum" in the world, in all manner of industry. Sucks for them. However, cab drivers that are "utter scum" will rip you off for a few dollars. High level bankers that are "utter scum" will rip people off for several million (or vastly more). Though rare, they garner slightly more vitriol.

If I had to guess, you don't see things as black and white as you let on in your post. I doubt drwinite does either. You may have been irritated by what you perceived as blind reactionary rhetoric against an institution that is not wholly, or even mostly, bad.

Both your and drwinite's post emanate from a "we vs. they" mentality. Immoral bankers vs the people; educated opinion vs redneck rhetoric etc. As a world traveler, I've discovered that "they" don't exist. They're always in the next town over, yet I never see them.

There is only us, we humans, and in this global society, we're all on the same team. Why else would your two diametrically opposed rants both be so accurate?

Motorcycles.

Absolutely not ... you have no right to demand anything from banks or bankers.

Just like I have no right to demand anything from you. Nor do I have the right to demand plumbers in the UK work cheaper.

You have the right to move money from a financial institution whose policies you dont like to one you do like.

If you think you can operate a superior model of financial institution, you have every right to try and make one and profit from the fact that your model appeals to the consumer better than existing banks! If you think there is that much demand for it, then you will be very successful. You absolutely have the right to try.

But you have no right to demand other banks or bankers behave in a way that you personally or even the majority of the population see fit.

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Well spotted.

At the end of the day its completely off topic. This is a forum about motorcycles. This is a thread about carnets. To launch into a vitriolic intolerant rant about one sector of the community that you dont personally like deserves to get slapped down. Its inaccurate, ill informed, and most of all its not appropriate to the forum or the thread.

Since I am not a moderator with the power to delete such off topic comments, I often choose to counter them instead.

You consider it it wrong for me to show intolerance of others being intolerant? Thats the Paradox of Tolerance .... (see the works of one of my favourite philosophers, Karl Popper)

The only way to ensure tolerance is to be intolerant of intolerance.

And I assume you are promoting tolerance?

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As much as I want to agree with what Cole said earlier, perhaps the lesson first needs to be adopted by governments to let other jurisdictions run themselves as they see fit or not be allowed to play ball. The OECD TIEA and FATCA are designed to prevent the "competition" of places which have built themselves on banking.
But before this digresses to debate on "tax havens" at least I don't need a carnet to visit them..........!
So is there any cheaper way to get a carnet if the RAC are digging their heels in?
Richard (stashing his money under the mattress)

Just a few of things.

-I thought the anti banking post was unnecessary, but choose not to say anything, there is always that thing about arguing with fools.
-Walter you could have asked a Mod to remove it that would have been simpler than an economics lesson.

On topic, what really is the difference between leaving the RAC with a bond and paying the charges on a bank guarantee? I can't see it would be a whole lot different.

Also there have been some various threads suggesting that Africa is now possible with Temp Imports, including Egypt.

See here and here.

That just leaves the Middle East, Pakistan, India, Nepal, Japan, New Zealand and that other big over regulated place next to New Zealand.

Center justifying your text annoys me something chronic . What's wrong with the default left-margin-justify?

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TBS.com

Hi Craig
Could you copy the bits from this post relevant to the Carnet thread back into it?

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TBS.com

What is actually wrong with this thread?? .... and how did carnets get in here from "trip paperwork"?

I think that this is as suitable a thread as any other that has arisen in the bar.
While it is traditional in many societies not to discuss politics and religion in public company, surely taking a view about the current state of the world and its' players is a fair topic?


+ there are credit unions and this also:-
Your Savings | Burnley Savings and Loans
as examples of ethical use of cash deposits for the greater good of the customers, ethical business practice and working for the greater good of countries and their populations.
The guy in the link above has already met resistance from the banking "industry" (which, of course, it is not an industry since it actually produces nothing - Sir John Harvey Jones' (RIP) definition of "wealth" refers)

Micro-financing also comes to mind as another example of "good" investment.

In contrast, the defence given in earlier posts of banks and bankers is how it is supposed to work; clearly this has been malfunctioning for quite some time and the banks have become akin to gambling houses/casinos, with more than a wiff of corruption to boot (LIBOR any one?).
If Hollywood is to be believed, the individual personnel involved (the bankers) have acted in a manner akin to drug-addled "rollers of the dice" at the gambling tables. The evidence for this broad point of view continues to mount, as the various investigations of the main players have progressed; of course, this is far from over, and there is every possibility that the ramifications will continue for some years yet.
The law courts may not be too busy with associated litigation yet, but I rest my case, my Lud.

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Dave

Don't understand why you ask the question. There's nothing wrong with this thread.

Post #1 was a reply in a thread about carnets at http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...e-uk-rac-68191 . Posts #2 to 8 were responses to post #1. Hence I felt it appropriate to move these "off-carnet-topic" posts into their own thread uder the title "Banks and Bankers".

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TBS.com

A little bit of an exaggerated blanket statement there, from the Hubb's favourite banker...

Although that tosh was written a couple of weeks ago, I think it's fair to respond late, seeing as how nobody else has.


I think Mr Colebatch obviously spent too much time at school (Harrow? Eton?) studying economics, and not enough time studying history. I suspect the wealth of rich western states might in fact have something to do with the last 1000 years or so of history, and in particular from the industrial revolution onwards. That industrial development wouldn't have been possible without banking and stock markets, but that hardly equates to bankers being the creators of our wealth, rather than facilitators.

We need a banking system without a doubt, but I don't see why that system couldn't work perfectly well without an old boys club at the helm ensuring that they and all their toffee-nosed chums stuff their pockets to bursting point. That's what this recession is about, they've reached the bursting point, too much 'wealth' is in the hands of too few and they can't spend it fast enough to keep the economy as a whole ticking.


The 'average man on the street' isn't interested in politics really, as long as he can go down the pub on friday night and shag his missus once a week. That's why the system will continue as it does, not because it 'should' or because it works so perfectly as Mr Colebatch seems to think. The bankers aren't interested in reasons or consequences, only how much money they're stuffing into their already bulging pockets, and I don't think that's about to change any time soon. Trebles all round for Giles, Tarquin, and of course Walter!

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UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350

Its not an industry, its a sector of the economy. No one said it was an industry. No one said its superior to be part of an industry? Unless you are?

Doctors and nurses also produce nothing ... neither do firefighters. Neither do hairdressers, shop assistants, and adventure motorcycle websites for that matter ... So what exactly are you intimating? Whats your point there?

You seem to be suggesting that if your job doesnt including making something physical then you are a lesser part of society? Is that how you also view firefighters and nurses?



Hows that? Its completely unregulated finance. So are you proposing less regulation or more? It seems you want it both ways. That doesnt make sense. the Micro Finance model is one of wholesale borrowing and unregulated lending. Most people say thats kinda what led to the sub prime loans problem which is why we are where we are today. i.e banks being too generous with their lending. Lending too much money to people who could not prove they could pay it back. Are you saying you want more of that?

What happened, is that the banks got burned by lending money to people with poor or no credit histories (not disimmilar to your micro finance example, remarkably). Now the banks are scared to lend money and the public complains about that too. Lend more money the public and governments cry ... well hang on, arent you simultaneously crucifying the banks for lending too much money in the first place???

And lets not forget ... that commercial banks are conduits for the central bank. When the central bank wants more lending in the economy, they lower interest rates. Thats kinda how it all works. They lower rates. The Central Banks, led by Alan Greenspan, wanted more and more lending. So they threw money at the commercial banks and told them to distribute it ... get it out there in the economy. When a central bank lowers rates, the implicit instruction from the central bank (part of the state) to the commercial banks is to lend more to the public and to businesses (industrial or not...).

So if there is anyone to blame for the excessive lending that led to the financial crisis, its the central banks (The state). The central bankers are appointed by the elected government. YOU elected the government. Stand up and take a bow !

So schools have been malfunctioning for quite some time too with more than a whiff of pornography about it ... with all the revealed student teacher sex relationships that have been uncovered in the last few years.? Just goes to show ... teachers are scum

The medical profession has been malfunctioning for some time with more than a whiff of psycho death about it? Harold Shipman anyone? Just goes to show ... Doctors and Nurses are scum.

Maybe we can list every single profession out there and why it malfunctions. After all, there's a new one every day in The Sun !

Using this method, we will soon be able to clearly justify why every business and industry and job in the UK should be closed down.

Whats your profession btw?

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